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  1. #21
    Senior Member Phil Leigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PasTim View Post
    My procedures were somewhat sloppy - I wasn't trying to be very methodical, just tinkering. I don't have the raw data any more, and I'm not enthusiastic enough to want to go through it all again (not least because I have to move stuff around the house to do the tests).

    However, with SPDIF into my sound card my notes say I got correlations in the low 90s from a 2 minute piano track compared with the original rip using PCM and mid 70s with FLAC (all at CD quality). Maybe my card didn't like some extra noise or somesuch. Anyhow, that's what I saw, 'wrong' or otherwise.

    Having seen that level of difference with SPDIF I didn't try with the analogue out.
    I get a null correlation over 110 for FLAC and PCM against each other - via analogue!.
    This is using an M-Audio 24/96 Audiophile card, synced by s/pdif, with ADM sample rate correction enabled on 16/44.1 source material.

    Do you use Replaygain? That would lower the FLAC correlation on this particular test...


    http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpo...&postcount=105


    When I get time I'll try and repeat your test (wav vs flac via s/pdif against rip)
    Last edited by Phil Leigh; 2011-08-31 at 08:25.
    You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...
    Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables
    Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
    Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Phil Leigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PasTim View Post
    ...
    However, with SPDIF into my sound card my notes say I got correlations in the low 90s from a 2 minute piano track compared with the original rip using PCM and mid 70s with FLAC (all at CD quality). ...
    Something was very wrong with your test procedure,or your sound card/drivers. Via s/pdif, both FLAC and WAV/PCM always give 100% identical (correlation null = -144) comparisons with the original rip file.

    However, for this to work you do need a sound card that is not being (ahem) "managed" by the operating system... e.g. no Windows kernel sample rate conversion weirdness...

    By the way, this test actually tells you nothing about what happens when you connect a DAC to the Touch s/pdif... it simply proves what we already know, namely that both wav and flac playback are "bit-perfect" via s/pdif.

    Noise from the transport can IN THEORY still interfere with the operation of SOME DACs - likewise, jitter and clocking can still be an issue for SOME DACs.
    You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...
    Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables
    Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
    Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Leigh View Post
    Something was very wrong with your test procedure,or your sound card/drivers. Via s/pdif, both FLAC and WAV/PCM always give 100% identical (correlation null = -144) comparisons with the original rip file.

    However, for this to work you do need a sound card that is not being (ahem) "managed" by the operating system... e.g. no Windows kernel sample rate conversion weirdness...

    By the way, this test actually tells you nothing about what happens when you connect a DAC to the Touch s/pdif... it simply proves what we already know, namely that both wav and flac playback are "bit-perf ect" via s/pdif.

    Noise from the transport can IN THEORY still interfere with the operation of SOME DACs - likewise, jitter and clocking can still be an issue for SOME DACs.
    I haven't got the time or energy to try again right now, but the results were consistent over a couple of runs. I was using an M-audio 24/96, external sync. The results were not exactly the same as the original. Comparing the rip to itself I got a correlation of 300 (as below - I kept that one for reference)

    parameters: 0sec, 0.000dB (L), 0.000dB (R)..Corr Depth: 300.0 dB (L), 300.0 dB (R)

    I don't know why I get 300 and you quote 144. Maybe a different version of ADM? Mine is 3.22.

    I'm using M-audio's own Windows 7 64 bit drivers.

    During the runs it said I didn't need sample rate compensations, so I didn't.

    Something of a mystery then.

    I don't have an external DAC (see signature below) but was running with SPDIF into the sound card since I thought it might tell me something interesting.
    LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps. 2 Touches & EDO.
    LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz CR603 UPnP renderers.
    Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.
    Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.
    Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with Squeeze-Ctrl/BubbleUPnP controls LMS/Minimserver.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Phil Leigh's Avatar
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    My tests were extensive and under reasonably controlled conditions. There was no difference recorded. I was using XP drivers for the M-Audio, but that shouldn't matter... YOU CANT GET A NULL BY ACCIDENT.

    You can get a difference by accident.

    I have no idea why you recorded a difference: it would mean that the bitstream was different - which it simply cannot be/isn't. This is easily proven by other means (e.g playing DTS or HDCD).
    You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...
    Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables
    Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
    Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Leigh View Post
    My tests were extensive and under reasonably controlled conditions. There was no difference recorded. I was using XP drivers for the M-Audio, but that shouldn't matter... YOU CANT GET A NULL BY ACCIDENT.

    You can get a difference by accident.

    I have no idea why you recorded a difference: it would mean that the bitstream was different - which it simply cannot be/isn't. This is easily proven by other means (e.g playing DTS or HDCD).
    My background is in (digital) computers, where bits don't usually get lost without detection (although it can happen very rarely). They do get lost/mangled, but they then get detected and corrected.

    I freely admit I don't understand real-time hi-fi digital processing. As a computer man, sending data without big buffers at either end and the option to retransmit seems madness, but it seems that what audio people decided to do.

    All of this is leading up to saying that I don't understand some of what you said above, especially the capitals. Things can go wrong, but a decent design would recover and correct loss.

    I have no knowledge of, or facility to use, HDCD or DTS.

    I do know that I did several runs, none of which came near to the ideal, and they did vary a bit.

    I also have no idea why my ADM reads 300 for a rip against itself but you say 144 is perfect. Something very strange there. From what you say you get 144 every time with SPDIF. I never got close to 100. So my Touch, and/or SPDIF RCAs, and/or M-audio card, and/or drivers, and/or etc.... are playing up, and playing up reasonably consistently.

    Not having a separate DAC this is only of theoretical interest to me. Trying to find the cause of what would appear to be a repeatable 'accident' is probably beyond me.
    LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps. 2 Touches & EDO.
    LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz CR603 UPnP renderers.
    Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.
    Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.
    Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with Squeeze-Ctrl/BubbleUPnP controls LMS/Minimserver.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Lestrad's Avatar
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    What happened to rebuffering?

    This was supposed to be a thread about rebuffering and it seems to have totally abandoned that topic.

    Rebuffering has nothing to do with sound quality. Rebuffering results in an absence of sound, and that sound, being absent, has no quality whatsoever. Of course silence is perfect in a way...

    I'm under Windows 7 and having rebuffering problems like the original poster. I'm resurrecting this thread in the hope that somebody can help me (and others) with that.

    Please?!

    PS When it comes to religion, I'm a Catholic with animist tendencies.
    __________________________________________________ _____________________
    Logitech Media Server Version: 8.0.0 - ARCH-AUR-GIT.20200807.1a544e3 running on Wandboard Quad, music library on USB HDD
    Squeezebox Touch plugged into run-of-the-mill stereo rig via Musical Fidelity X-Act, extra speakers in kitchen, basement, and bedroom connected by ordinary (not unidirectional) copper wire.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Apesbrain's Avatar
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    Is this over wireless? If so, are you able to temporarily wire the Touch and test?

  8. #28
    Senior Member Lestrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apesbrain View Post
    Is this over wireless? If so, are you able to temporarily wire the Touch and test?
    Thanks! No, Sir, I'm strictly wired. All Cat-5 or above cable, no long runs.
    __________________________________________________ _____________________
    Logitech Media Server Version: 8.0.0 - ARCH-AUR-GIT.20200807.1a544e3 running on Wandboard Quad, music library on USB HDD
    Squeezebox Touch plugged into run-of-the-mill stereo rig via Musical Fidelity X-Act, extra speakers in kitchen, basement, and bedroom connected by ordinary (not unidirectional) copper wire.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Apesbrain's Avatar
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    I know it's a bother, but I'd temporarily install LMS (no customizations nor additional plugins) on one of your desktop PCs, index some music files on the same PC, and try to play your Touch from there. You point the Touch to the new server by: My Music > Switch Library.

    If the above is successful, consider getting a Raspberry Pi for use as an LMS server. Many people on this forum can help with RPi issues. Your configuration (Arch/Wandboard) is not that common, so finding help is going to get increasingly difficult.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lestrad View Post
    Thanks! No, Sir, I'm strictly wired. All Cat-5 or above cable, no long runs.
    Plase clarify is LMS on Win7 or on Wandboard ?

    If it is on Win7 then it may be worthwhile upgrading to LMS 8.*, it has many bugs fixes including a few Windows specific I/O scheduling ones.

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