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  1. #11
    Senior Member Philip Meyer's Avatar
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    TPE2 sort method needed

    I understand the problem very well, and think I can explain it a bit better.

    There's nothing actually wrong with Problem 1, except for mislabelling of the option text. The additional info text is even more misleading. Various people (myself included) have suggested alternative text for the option. We just need to agree what the actual alternative text should be.

    The main issue is Problem 2, which I believe is easy to fix too. This is not a sorting problem. I've been thinking at having a go a producing a patch to the scanner to try it out (not sure how/where to add webUI options), but haven't got round to it yet.

    My suggestion is to provide an option to change the way that the scanner interprets mp3 TPE2 tags.

    At the moment TPE2 is treated as Band, and some people want TPE2 to be treated as Album Artist. The option would be something like a checkbox labelled with "Treat TPE2 (Band) as Album Artist".

    Unticked, the SqueezeCenter scanner would work exactly as it does now.

    If ticked, the scanner would read TPE2 and store this as an Album Artist contributor role (INSTEAD of Band - NOT also setting the Band role). If TXXX ALBUMARTIST and TPE2 were both set on an mp3 song, the TXXX ALBUMARTIST should override the TPE2 tag.

    And that's it. There would be nothing else to do, except to decide what the new checkbox option should be set to by default. I think the installation wizard should ask what this should be set to, or perhaps defaulting to ticked for brand new installations, and unticked for people upgrading (so their library doesn't change unexpectedly).

    There's a related problem, which I raised on bug 7836 (http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=7836). Essentially clicking on any contributor artist link only displays a list of albums with that artist as that type of contributor. So, if songs on an album were tagged with an album artist tag to avoid guest performers forcing the album to be classified as a Compilation and thus appearing under Various Artists, then if you were to click on the album artist name, it would only show other albums where there was also an album artist contributor role, not other albums that have that artist name. Clicking a Track Artist name would only show albums by that artist where they are also guest artists. Fixing Problem 2 will probably make this related problem more obvious (people without album artist tags will not have album artist or track artist contributor roles - their only problem is a mislabelling of the album as a compilation, or the album grouped under the wrong artist).

    Phil

  2. #12
    Senior Member JJZolx's Avatar
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    Although TSOP is an id3v2.4 native frame many taggers will happily write the frame to id3v2.3. Mp3tag is one.

    I just ran a simple test. SqueezeCenter will also happily use the TSOP frame when found in an id3v2.3 tag. But it will use it as an ARTISTSORT field and apply the sort string to the string found in the TPE1 frame, not to the one found in the TPE2 frame.

    TSOP
    The 'Performer sort order' frame defines a string which should be
    used instead of the performer (TPE2) for sorting purposes.
    So, if you consider the info found at id3.org to be an official 'spec' then SC's interpretation is wrong. However, if you consider the id3 specs outlined on that site to be so massively ****ed up that they're nearly worthless (as I do) then it's anyone's guess how the frame should be treated. It seems odd that the main performer is traditionally stored in the TPE1 frame (indeed, many applications don't even recognize TPE2) but the geniuses at id3.org would only designate a frame to specify the sorting of TPE2.

  3. #13
    Senior Member studley's Avatar
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    MP3Tag (which I use to tag my files) has started supporting TSOP and some other ID3v2.4 tags in ID3v2.3, as well. I now keep my tags as 2.3 but add TSOP for sort order. David
    The Guide is definitive. Reality is often inaccurate.

    My music is my story: last.fm, pandora

  4. #14
    Senior Member Philip Meyer's Avatar
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    TPE2 sort method needed

    >I just ran a simple test. SqueezeCenter will also happily use the TSOP
    >frame when found in an id3v2.3 tag. But it will use it as an ARTISTSORT
    >field and apply the sort string to the string found in the TPE1 frame,
    >not to the one found in the TPE2 frame.


    That's exactly what it should do. TSOP is the artist sort order tag, which relates to TPE1. There is no standard album artist sort tag, as there is no standard album artist tag.

    id3.org defines:
    4.2.2 TPE1 Lead performer(s)/Soloist(s)
    4.2.2 TPE2 Band/orchestra/accompaniment
    4.2.2 TPE3 Conductor/performer refinement
    4.2.2 TPE4 Interpreted, remixed, or otherwise modified by

    4.2.5 TSOP Performer sort order

    It is a bit strange that the more detailed info for TSOP refers to TPE2, because I've always read that TPE1 is the main/lead performer (Artist) for a song, so by "Performer sort order" I take that to mean TPE1 sort order. This is how most software treats it (iTunes, WMP).

  5. #15
    MrSinatra
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philip Meyer View Post
    >btw, issue one is just with the confusing documentation and intent of
    >that option.
    >
    >issue two is about actual functionality, ie. sorting.
    >

    I think your terminology here is what is confusing things.

    What you really mean is grouping.
    no, i meant what i said.

    if you want to call it grouping, feel free, but i call it sorting. maybe its ultimately the same thing, tomato/tomatoe, potato/potatoe.

    but lets not argue semantics. ultimately what matters is properly ordering my library using 2.3 tags.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip Meyer View Post
    You want TPE2 to be used to group songs to have the same album artist. This has no bearing on how the album, or album artist, is to be sorted.
    well, first, you aren't stating if you mean tags (id3 fields) in the files, or labels internal to SC7, so without your being specific its hard to address your post.

    please do not state for me what i want, b/c i think you confuse the issue. i can, (i hope), clearly explain what i want, and i'll do it here again:

    i want SC7 to have the ability to sort my library based on the data in the TPE2 field in my files.

    therefore, in artwork gallery view, using artist, year, album, it [SC7] would arrange my albums based on the data in my TPE2 fields in my files.

    this would mimic the defacto standard used by many other apps, however "wrong" it may be to do so, if using a strict interpretation of id3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip Meyer View Post
    Without an album artist on all songs that have different artist performers, the album becomes a various artist album, and is thus the album is listed under artist="Various Artists".
    again, i don't know if you are talking about id3 values or SC7 internal values, but i can tell you that i have MANY albums that have no TPE2 data at all, that do NOT get called "various artists" albums by SC7.

    that only happens if there is disagreement of even only one track, in the TPE1 field for any given CD.

  6. #16
    MrSinatra
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    Quote Originally Posted by andyg View Post
    On Apr 25, 2008, at 5:33 PM, MrSinatra wrote:
    >
    > i only have time for a quick reply...
    >
    > but this isn't going to work. 2.4 is not an official standard, and
    > more to the point, the apps i am talking about don't support it. its
    > merely exchanging one problem for another.
    >
    > more later, but i appreciate the dialogue.



    I assume you're referring to this statement?

    "A follow on version, 2.4, is documented on this website but has not
    achieved popular status due to some disagreements on some of the
    revisions and the tremendous inertia present in the software and
    hardware marketplace."

    Regardless, 2.4 has been around for 8 years and they've already got
    the sort field you need and it's supported in SC, so why not use it?
    at the risk of being redundant, i'll explain again why...

    1. its not an official standard. id3v2.3 is and while it is used incorrectly, its universal and even the incorrect usage is near universal (thus "defacto" standard).

    2. all the apps i want to use, (and i try to keep that number small), don't support it, (ie. 2.4 eg. TSOP).

    3. i am not trying to get an option added just for me. this applies to ALL mp3 users who do NOT use secondary tagging software, which is the vast majority.

    TSOP is essentially a user defined tag in 2 ways. first, its not an official standard, and second it requires using yet another program, not only to add tags to all albums that would need it, (i have some 200 gigs), but also requires the extra step to all future music ripped.

    why force me into this step when using TPE2, (which i have for those that need it), is already possible? especially since TPE2 is already read into the SC7 internal BAND field? (why be able to denote the album is "by" the TPE2 field, but then not be able to SORT by that field? that is the current implementation, but i see little sense in it.

    this leads to:

    4. i do not like the 3rd party programs i have tried for tagging like mp3tag, musicbrainz, etc... i simply do not think i should have to use one to get SC7 to give me the option to emulate what all big marketshare apps do, (such as itunes, winamp, WMP, etc...) i am hardly alone in this regard.

    i'm not trying to be argumentative or difficult Andy, i am trying to make the case that this option makes sense for slim to add.

  7. #17
    Perl Commando Dan Sully's Avatar
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    TPE2 sort method needed

    * MrSinatra shaped the electrons to say...

    >1. its not an official standard. id3v2.3 is and while it is used


    I have a bridge for sale, I'm sure you'd like it.

    -D
    --
    <dsully> please describe web 2.0 to me in 2 sentences or less.
    <jwb> you make all the content. they keep all the revenue.

  8. #18
    MrSinatra
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    point taken but it doesn't forward the issue of the topic, and 2.3 is the "most official" of any tagging standard, or would you disagree? by that, i mean 2.3 is essentially universal to all apps.

  9. #19
    Perl Commando Dan Sully's Avatar
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    TPE2 sort method needed

    * MrSinatra shaped the electrons to say...

    >point taken but it doesn't forward the issue of the topic, and 2.3 is
    >the "most official" of any tagging standard, or would you disagree? by
    >that, i mean 2.3 is essentially universal to all apps.


    I think that if you're at all serious about music, you'd be using FLAC and
    this issue would be moot.

    "But I want MP3s for my portable devices / iTunes, etc".

    Use Robin's wonderful flac2mp3 program.

    Really, the ID3 spec is horrid and trying to say "standard" anywhere near it
    is laughable.

    -D
    --
    <dsully> please describe web 2.0 to me in 2 sentences or less.
    <jwb> you make all the content. they keep all the revenue.

  10. #20
    MrSinatra
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philip Meyer View Post
    I understand the problem very well, and think I can explain it a bit better.
    i agree you do understand it, but sometimes i think you might have an erroneous conclusion of what its like in practice, (as i often have myself

    i think if the people posting on this issue, ie. the ones at the forum, had a large collection like mine, but did NOT use a secondary app like mp3tag, they'd really understand it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip Meyer View Post
    There's nothing actually wrong with Problem 1, except for mislabelling of the option text. The additional info text is even more misleading. Various people (myself included) have suggested alternative text for the option. We just need to agree what the actual alternative text should be.
    totally agree. its a documention issue that i plead for slim to address.

    my suggestions are in the first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip Meyer View Post
    The main issue is Problem 2, which I believe is easy to fix too. This is not a sorting problem.
    it depends how you look at it. from my POV, it is a sorting problem, as i am judging the end result.

    from your POV, it isn't, b/c SC7 could be altered to use TPE2 to populate the internal SC7 ALBUMARTIST field, (as your proposed solution). and then in that situation, things would sort properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip Meyer View Post
    I've been thinking at having a go a producing a patch to the scanner to try it out (not sure how/where to add webUI options), but haven't got round to it yet.

    My suggestion is to provide an option to change the way that the scanner interprets mp3 TPE2 tags.

    At the moment TPE2 is treated as Band, and some people want TPE2 to be treated as Album Artist. The option would be something like a checkbox labelled with "Treat TPE2 (Band) as Album Artist".

    Unticked, the SqueezeCenter scanner would work exactly as it does now.
    i follow your suggested implementation up to this point. this is certainly one method worth trying. you lose me with the next bit and i'll explain:

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip Meyer View Post
    If ticked, the scanner would read TPE2 and store this as an Album Artist contributor role (INSTEAD of Band - NOT also setting the Band role). If TXXX ALBUMARTIST and TPE2 were both set on an mp3 song, the TXXX ALBUMARTIST should override the TPE2 tag.
    so you are saying if ticked, it would populate the internal ALBUMARTIST field, and NOT the internal BAND field.

    what i don't understand is why you would not ALSO set the BAND field?

    i think TPE2 should populate BOTH. i see no reason not to. however, i do see that SC7 would be broken for denoting who an album is by, if you did NOT populate the BAND field.

    in any case, i agree with your last sentence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip Meyer View Post
    And that's it. There would be nothing else to do, except to decide what the new checkbox option should be set to by default. I think the installation wizard should ask what this should be set to, or perhaps defaulting to ticked for brand new installations, and unticked for people upgrading (so their library doesn't change unexpectedly).
    i would say the default for any installation be unticked, and then people like me can tick it if they think they need it. i don't want to upset the current crowd who has things the way they want them, and i doubt slim wants to add this Q to the new install routine, but if they do i'd be for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip Meyer View Post
    There's a related problem, which I raised on bug 7836 (http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=7836). Essentially clicking on any contributor artist link only displays a list of albums with that artist as that type of contributor. So, if songs on an album were tagged with an album artist tag to avoid guest performers forcing the album to be classified as a Compilation and thus appearing under Various Artists, then if you were to click on the album artist name, it would only show other albums where there was also an album artist contributor role, not other albums that have that artist name. Clicking a Track Artist name would only show albums by that artist where they are also guest artists. Fixing Problem 2 will probably make this related problem more obvious (people without album artist tags will not have album artist or track artist contributor roles - their only problem is a mislabelling of the album as a compilation, or the album grouped under the wrong artist).

    Phil
    i am not sure about anything you wrote above there, however, i am pretty sure that someone else in the other threads said that TPE1 populates the internal ALBUMARTIST field IF no other user defined tags are available, and IF SC7 does not identify it as a various artists album.

    i could have that all wrong, but i have no user defined tags, and yet i thnk someone said to me it doesn't matter, one way or another SC7 has populated its internal fields for ALBUMARTIST regardless.

    interested to see your proposed solution.

    i think i would call your option something like this:

    "Have SC7 use TPE2/Band data as if it were Album Artist"

    and above "Album Artist" would mean both TPE2 in other apps, as well as SC7s internal ALBUMARTIST field.

    also, as i suggested, consider using TPE2 to populate both ALBUMARTIST and BAND.
    Last edited by MrSinatra; 2008-04-27 at 21:40.

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