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  1. #11
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  2. #12
    Gadfly, Former Founder Slim Devices dean's Avatar
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    Fast-forward/rewind resign

    Whatever UI model we come up with here should work consistently across
    SB2/3, Transporter and SBC.

    My experience watching people try to use the FWD/REW buttons is that
    they expect that they'll press and hold them to start scanning through
    the file and when they release playback should continue from where the
    scan ended up. I haven't seen the 2x, 4x, 8x modes seem natural to
    anyone. Not even me when I first implemented them.

    I am also uncomfortable with using up/down to move in time, it seems
    much more natural to use the left/right on the SB remote.
    Unfortunately, it also seems natural to use the knob or wheel on TR
    and SBC to scrub, though these map to up/down.

    Here's another proposal, to throw fuel on the fire...


    When playing:

    1. Single press of FWD/REW skip to next/previous track as it works
    now. (With the special case of restarting the current track on REW if
    past a certain point.)

    2. Press and hold FWD/REW start a scan through the file (with audible
    feedback when feasible and a full-screen progress bar displayed on the
    screen). Resume playback upon release, after one second. This scan
    should be accelerated.

    3. After the user releases the FWD/REW button and while the progress
    bar is still displayed for that one second, if the user scrolls the
    knob/wheel they can shuttle through the track. When they stop
    spinning the wheel, after a second the progress bar disappears and
    playback resumes.

    When stopped or paused:

    1. Single press of FWD/REW skip to next/previous track as above and
    then start playing. This is also the current behavior.

    2. Press and hold FWD/REW start a scan through the file (without
    audible feedback and with a full-screen progress bar displayed).
    Playback remains paused upon release at the current position.

    3. After the user releases the FWD/REW button and while the progress
    bar is still displayed for that one second, if the user scrolls the
    knob/wheel they can shuttle through the track. When they stop
    spinning the wheel, after a second the progress bar disappears and we
    remain paused.


    The #3 items above work like the volume scrub mode on the Controller
    and Transporter, which people seem to like.

    Thoughts?



  3. #13
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    I think you need the scanner to stay up for longer, including after jumping to where you have moved the pointer to. Having to repeatedly use press-and-hold FWD to get into the mode would be irritating.

    Having implemented this and played around with for a while now on both the SBC and player IR UI, the scanner functionality is very easy to use and one can quickly get to a place in a podcast, for example.

    The ability also to use accelerated playback I see as secondary. It is generally less useful.

  4. #14
    Gadfly, Former Founder Slim Devices dean's Avatar
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    Fast-forward/rewind resign

    On Mar 25, 2008, at 8:51 AM, awy wrote:
    > I think you need the scanner to stay up for longer, including after
    > jumping to where you have moved the pointer to. Having to repeatedly
    > use press-and-hold FWD to get into the mode would be irritating.

    That makes sense. I picked one second arbitrarily, this would need to
    used and tested and tuned. What value have you found to be good?

    > Having implemented this and played around with for a while now on both
    > the SBC and player IR UI, the scanner functionality is very easy to
    > use
    > and one can quickly get to a place in a podcast, for example.

    Excellent. How can I try it?

    > The ability also to use accelerated playback I see as secondary. It is
    > generally less useful.

    Agreed, although scan is what I've seen folks expect to happen when
    they press and continue to hold the FWD/REW buttons.


  5. #15
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    Fast-forward/rewind resign

    >>>>> dean blackketter <dean (AT) slimdevices (DOT) com> writes:

    > When stopped or paused:


    > 1. Single press of FWD/REW skip to next/previous track as above and
    > then start playing. This is also the current behavior.


    I've never understood this - no CD player I ever had worked this way,
    and my expectation is to stay paused when hitting FWD/REV.

    greg

  6. #16
    Senior Member max.spicer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregklanderman View Post
    >>>>> dean blackketter <dean (AT) slimdevices (DOT) com> writes:I've never understood this - no CD player I ever had worked this way,
    and my expectation is to stay paused when hitting FWD/REV.
    CD players often have two buttons to do fast-forward/rewind and two others to do next track/previous track. The ones that only have two buttons do single press = next/previous held press = scan. I don't think I've ever seen a CD player with only two buttons that doesn't provide next/previous track via a single press.

    Max
    Some people think the title of this song is irrelevant,
    but it's not irrelevant - it's a hippopotamus.

  7. #17
    Senior Member radish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by max.spicer View Post
    CD players often have two buttons to do fast-forward/rewind and two others to do next track/previous track. The ones that only have two buttons do single press = next/previous held press = scan. I don't think I've ever seen a CD player with only two buttons that doesn't provide next/previous track via a single press.

    Max
    I think the issue is not whether it skips to the next track, it's whether it starts playing if it were previously paused, e.g.:

    > When stopped or paused:

    > 1. Single press of FWD/REW skip to next/previous track as above and
    > then start playing. This is also the current behavior.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Philip Meyer's Avatar
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    Fast-forward/rewind resign

    >Revised proposal posted at
    >http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpo...4&postcount=50


    This sounds much better than the previous proposal - you've taken into account many of my previous concerns - thanks!

    I'm a little confused by some of the items in the new proposal. For me, audio feedback is essential. It sounded as if there was no audio feedback, as it talks about pending changes until play is pressed to confirm the new position. However, you indicate that there will still be audio feedback. So I assume that whilst scanning forwards/backwards with Up/Down, you can hear the audio at the new scan position. Pressing play would return to wherever you were before invoking the scanner (not necessarily Now Playing screen). When aborting by pressing Left, music would return to the exact position where the user was before the scanner was invoked. When if the screensaver kicks in, or some other action is invoked (eg. change volume) - does that abort or accept the new position.

    It's debateable whether there is a need to FF/REW past the current track - it could be a bit confusing. My initial thought was that it should only allow scanning between start and end of the current track. However, users may expect to be able to FF through several tracks - eg. if they are seemless (gapless). I think CD players allow FF/REW through track boundaries.

    If you decide not to support FF/REW through track boundaries, if playback hits the end of the track and you are still in the scanner, should it pause such that the user can scan back within the current track, or should it abort the scanner and start the next track in normal playback mode?

    One other minor point - in the scanner, it would be nice to display the track duration, elapsed time and also the time remaining.

    Perhaps in the scanner timeline bar, the original track position could be indicated (eg. use a lower shade of brightness between the original position and the new position).

    Perhaps I could have a play with your latest work to provide better feedback? Is it available somewhere?

    Phil

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philip Meyer View Post
    Perhaps I could have a play with your latest work to provide better feedback? Is it available somewhere?
    Phil
    Phil, your assumptions about what I mean are wrong in a few places but it is probably best if you just try it out

    Here is a patch. It is not finished - no error handling for tracks that do ot support seeking, for example - but it is good enough to play with. The diff is against 7.0.1 (i.e. trunk) but seems to work fine against 7.0.

    Alan

  10. #20
    Senior Member Philip Meyer's Avatar
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    Fast-forward/rewind resign

    >Phil, your assumptions about what I mean are wrong in a few places but
    >it is probably best if you just try it out
    >

    I had a play with your patch on a Transporter. Certainly makes more sense having had a play with it, rather than just reading through your proposal notes. I hadn't quite grasped the difference between audio feedback when there was a speed multiplier, and when using the scanner to position the playback position. It's working well.

    Some observations:

    1. If I ramp up the playback speed multiplier to eg. >> x8, and then press rewind, it immediately goes into << x2. I think it's better to ramp down to x4, x2, normal, upon each press of the REW button as it used to do. I think Pause can be pressed to return the time to normal speed (but paused), and Play could return to normal speed and continue playback at the new position (but still in the scanner).

    2. If I turn the knob clockwise, I can scan to almost the end of the track (doesn't quite fill the bar). If I leave the knob for a second so that playback resumes, it transitions to the next track, but the scanner doesn't show the track length details for the next track. On occasions when track transitions occured in the scanner, I found the knob resistance to initially be firm, but then it corrects itself - like the resistance is lagging behind the visual display.

    3. Due to the divisions into 100th's of the length of the track, it's not possible to set an exact playback location. Not sure if that's a concern - I'll try it with a long track later (eg. 2 hour podcast) to see what it's like then. For a transporter knob, I was thinking that perhaps the setting of the play position could be non-linear, so with slow movement it would change +/- 1 second, but when turning the knob faster, this would jump in 100th's. Ithink a normal remote would need to be linear as it is now though.

    4. I think there would be some merit in showing the current song position as the user is scanning through the track, to show how far they have scanned. Possibilities are to show the area between old position and new position in a lower brightness, or to put a little marker in the control (eg a ^ pointing at the current playback position). After a second of inactivity, the music would play at the new location and the indicator would move too.

    In fact, the scanner is acting as a general playback progress screen. Perhaps the scanner could also be invoked as a Now Playing screen. It could work more like an iPod, where each Now Playing press changes the display. "Now Playing" would initially display the normal now playing screen, a second press would display the scanner. In scanner mode, left/right keys could work like up/down.

    Phil

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