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  1. #11
    Senior Member matthijskoopmans's Avatar
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    And why exactly do we need the iTunes integration (oops, dangerous territory here )...

    I run it without, drop new files in the directory, and the scanner will pick it up at night. If i am in a hurry, I either run scan manually, or browse the music folder... I have not found a need for iTunes.

    Considering we cannot play iTunes store purchased music due to the DRM issue, is the iTunes integration truly that valuable? Especially considering the headaches it seems to cause with services accessing user files, etc, my very humble opinion would be to drop it from standard.

    For users that absolutely need this, why not have an app that runs in user mode, that can access the iTunes "whatever it is that is required", and communicate that to SqueezeCenter?

    it is not my intention to start a long thread on the iTunes merits, but it seems we try to find a technical solution to a problem that might actually not really exist...

  2. #12
    Craig, James \(IT\)
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    Windows: service vs. application mode

    If you don't use iTunes you probably shouldn't be contributing to a
    discussion in which it appears to be key!

    iTunes "plus" DRM free downloads play fine in SlimServer, and I'd much
    rather create playlists in iTunes than SlimServer, not to mention the
    fact that everyone needs some sort of tool outside of SlimServer to
    manage their music files.

    James
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  3. #13
    Babelfish's Best Boy mherger's Avatar
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    Windows: service vs. application mode

    > And why exactly do we need the iTunes integration (oops, dangerous
    > territory here )...


    iTunes is used by a large part of the community.

    > it is not my intention to start a long thread on the iTunes merits, but
    > it seems we try to find a technical solution to a problem that might
    > actually not really exist...


    The problem is user friendlyness. Why have a GUI? After all you can control any aspect of SC over the CLI - and it's blazing fast, too!...

    Michael


  4. #14
    Babelfish's Best Boy mherger's Avatar
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    Windows: service vs. application mode

    > In my opinion it's not about which option that is the best in an
    > perfect environment, it's about which option that works good enough for
    > most users and doesn't cause a support headache.


    Not only support headache, but user headache, too ;-). Our target is to have the best "out of the box experience" possible. The user should get this system running with no headache at all.

    > I think the developing time would be much better spent
    > by improving stuff that gives you better browsing, searching and music
    > listening functionality.


    With the time we're spending flipping an option in the installer we wouldn't add one single browse mode. Don't worry. But it can considerably improve the first impression we make.

    Michael

  5. #15
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    My two pence is that changing to a user application is a backwards step, technically at least. There's a similar thing with software updaters where there are user applications (like those used by Firefox, Adobe, Apple) that should be services (like Microsoft's Automatic Updates client). I guess they're user application because they either come from a Windows 9x single-user background, or that they're easier to design and code. Given that SS/SC is already doing it right, it would be a shame to lose that.

    For iTunes, if the service is running as LocalSystem then does it have the rights/permissions to walk the hive list (HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Contr ol\hivelist), load each hive in turn and query the required key? Would Perl make this harder than one that uses the Windows API?

    Could another option be to use a user application (SlimTray?) to act as a broker between the service and the user's registry hive? The service queries the user application, which fetches the iTunes key and returns it to the service.

    For the NAS problem, could the service impersonate a user for remote shares? The username/password would be entered on the web interface when adding the share, so that when the service accessed the share it then used the configured credentials. Again, is that possible with Perl? Using SlimTray as a broker might not be a good idea for this, as it'd be giving another processes read access to arbitrary data that the user can access.

    Just some random thoughts. Sorry if they're way out there (I'm no programmer).

  6. #16
    Babelfish's Best Boy mherger's Avatar
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    Windows: service vs. application mode

    > Given that SS/SC is already doing it right, it would
    > be a shame to lose that.


    Excuse me if I'm repeating myself. But nobody's talking about losing it. It's just about the _default_ setting. We always had both ways to run it. They will stay.

    > For iTunes, if the service is running as LocalSystem then does it have
    > the rights/permissions to walk the hive list
    > (HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Contr ol\hivelist), load
    > each hive in turn and query the required key? Would Perl make this
    > harder than one that uses the Windows API?


    We have access to the Windows API in Perl. But we want to read the user's registry hive - which isn't loaded unless he's logged on.

    > Could another option be to use a user application (SlimTray?) to act as
    > a broker between the service and the user's registry hive?


    That's imho a valid option, but only solves the iTunes issue. SC still couldn't access network shares.

    > For the NAS problem, could the service impersonate a user for remote
    > shares?


    That's option 3 - already available, but needs manual configuration for now.

    Michael

  7. #17
    NOT a Slim Devices Employee kdf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Herger View Post
    > Given that SS/SC is already doing it right, it would
    > be a shame to lose that.


    Excuse me if I'm repeating myself. But nobody's talking about losing it. It's just about the _default_ setting. We always had both ways to run it. They will stay.

    > For iTunes, if the service is running as LocalSystem then does it have
    > the rights/permissions to walk the hive list
    > (HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Contr ol\hivelist), load
    > each hive in turn and query the required key? Would Perl make this
    > harder than one that uses the Windows API?


    We have access to the Windows API in Perl. But we want to read the user's registry hive - which isn't loaded unless he's logged on.

    There might be a way to do this. From perldoc Win32::TieRegistry:

    Code:
        # Load an off-line Registry hive file into the on-line Registry:
        $newKey= $Registry->Load( "C:/Path/To/Hive/FileName" );
        $newKey= $key->Load( "C:/Path/To/Hive/FileName", "NewSubKeyName",
                         { Access=>"KEY_READ" } );
        # Unload a Registry hive file loaded via the Load() method:
        $newKey->UnLoad;

  8. #18
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Herger View Post
    Excuse me if I'm repeating myself. But nobody's talking about losing it. It's just about the _default_ setting. We always had both ways to run it. They will stay.
    Sorry - I didn't mean that it was going. It was a turn of phrase. I should have said "lose that default setting".

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Herger View Post
    We have access to the Windows API in Perl. But we want to read the user's registry hive - which isn't loaded unless he's logged on.
    But could the hive not be loaded, read, then unloaded? It'd be a problem if it was a roaming profile and was deleted at logoff, but otherwise the hive should be on the disk. Or is that a bad idea to load hives manually, rather than letting Windows do it? There's also needs to be a way of selecting which user's iTunes databases were read, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Herger View Post
    That's option 3 - already available, but needs manual configuration for now.
    Yes, of course. I was more thinking of something on a per-path basis. Run the service as LocalSystem and impersonate only for those paths that have been configured.
    Last edited by NigelMSB; 2007-10-25 at 09:41.

  9. #19
    Babelfish's Best Boy mherger's Avatar
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    Windows: service vs. application mode

    >> We have access to the Windows API in Perl. But we want to read the
    >> user's registry hive - which isn't loaded unless he's logged on.

    >
    > There might be a way to do this. From perldoc Win32::TieRegistry:
    >
    > Code:
    > --------------------
    > # Load an off-line Registry hive file into the on-line Registry:
    > $newKey= $Registry->Load( "C:/Path/To/Hive/FileName" );
    > $newKey= $key->Load( "C:/Path/To/Hive/FileName", "NewSubKeyName",
    > { Access=>"KEY_READ" } );
    > # Unload a Registry hive file loaded via the Load() method:
    > $newKey->UnLoad;
    > --------------------


    But which file do you want to load? You'd have to know the user to do this - which doesn't make sense as we could run the service as this user if we knew.

    Michael

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by matthijskoopmans View Post
    And why exactly do we need the iTunes integration (oops, dangerous territory here )...
    ... Because Apple claims that iTunes is the single most popular Windows application in the world. There have been over 500M downloads of the Windows version. (I'm sure there's some double-counting here, but 100M is still a pretty big number.)

    It may not matter to you, but it matters to most people.

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