Some thoughts and questions

[DejanM]

> If one counts squeezelite software players, there are likely more LMS
> users now than before Logitech dropped the hardware line over 10 years
> ago.

That's a bold statement - which is hard to prove right or wrong.
Unfortunately I don't have any reliable number for LMS users.

[DejanM]

Some thoughts and questions

Hi,

I see that some hardware producers use LMS as a server software: Innuos, SOtM, ... That is interesting development but it is understandable, because LMS provides a full set of functions needed by consumers: Spotify, Tidal, Quobuz, ... internet radio, ... Very few servers are capable of providing such a rich set of streaming functions.

But we have also further development of the hardware too. New protocols are appearing (for example: Dirreta) and in a certain point of time Squeezebox owners will be forced to upgrade. Not the mention the fact that existing Squeezes will not work for ever. Do you have any plan how to proceed in the case when Squeezebox hardware is not capable of supporting new server functions ? Are there any plans or ideas to build a new Squeezebox ?

For compatibility reasons it would be interesting to see the full integration with UPnP/DLNA. We have a plugin for that at the moment but I believe that that support should be part of core LMS functionality. Any plans to extend LMS in this direction ?

At the moment I am really pleased how LMS is working. But when I think about the future, I am not quite sure how to proceed ... Any thoughts from your side ?

[SlimChances]

Hi,

I see that some hardware producers use LMS as a server software: Innuos, SOtM, ... That is interesting development but it is understandable, because LMS provides a full set of functions needed by consumers: Spotify, Tidal, Quobuz, ... internet radio, ... Very few servers are capable of providing such a rich set of streaming functions.

But we have also further development of the hardware too. New protocols are appearing (for example: Dirreta) and in a certain point of time Squeezebox owners will be forced to upgrade. Not the mention the fact that existing Squeezes will not work for ever. Do you have any plan how to proceed in the case when Squeezebox hardware is not capable of supporting new server functions ? Are there any plans or ideas to build a new Squeezebox ?

For compatibility reasons it would be interesting to see the full integration with UPnP/DLNA. We have a plugin for that at the moment but I believe that that support should be part of core LMS functionality. Any plans to extend LMS in this direction ?

At the moment I am really pleased how LMS is working. But when I think about the future, I am not quite sure how to proceed ... Any thoughts from your side ?

Logitech ceased development/production of squeezeboxs many years ago. There are many alternatives such as raspberry pi

[garym]

For compatibility reasons it would be interesting to see the full integration with UPnP/DLNA.

UPnP/DLNA is generally so badly implemented on most streamers and endpoints that the squeezebox approach (now LMS) was a breath of fresh air and so much better. Many folks like Roon Labs as well and it likewise doesn't use UPnP/DLNA. This said, there are workarounds with some vendors that make UPnP/DLNA somewhat acceptable, but as a standard, it failed badly.

[bpa]

Do you have any plan how to proceed in the case when Squeezebox hardware is not capable of supporting new server functions ?
.
.
.Are there any plans or ideas to build a new Squeezebox ?

It is very very hard not to lose money making Squeezebox hardware. There is a very small market for new Squeezebox only players and it is fragmented (e.g. Boom replacement, Touch replacement, high audio)

Recent ESP-32 based software player (squeezelite-esp32) have enabled a few generic small manufacturers to develop and sell players, knowing all s/w is not their responsibility and so minimal support costs. The s/w also enables the player to be used as a Bluetooth and Airplay player - so they are not exclusively an SB player.

Example of these new players include SqueezeAMP-32, Polyvection's DAC32 & Digi32, Raspiaudio ESPMUSE - Proto, Lux and Mn. The user Coolio has been testing many other generic ESP32 h/w that can work as an SB player e.g. https://forums.slimdevices.com/showt...2CL-ESP32-ADF)

Other s/w development such as Picoreplayer - enable more Raspberry Pi based players with various Audio hats. Raspberry Pi is a very economic platform with well supported h/w, cases, screens, audio and other accessories.

UPNP/DLNA is a bad standard, no rigorous compatibility testing and was aimed at lowest common denominator. You only have to look at the UPNP plugin (or any UPNP servers implementation) to see how many tweaks are needed to support different players. It is a high support protocol - not good for community developed systems.

For compatibility reasons it would be interesting to see the full integration with UPnP/DLNA. We have a plugin for that at the moment but I believe that that support should be part of core LMS functionality. Any plans to extend LMS in this direction ?

LMS is a community development. There is no "one" person in charge of new developments. When a user/developer wants a new feature, they implement it and if successful/wanted - can be merged into release software.

[DejanM]

UPnP/DLNA is accepted industry standard. That is a fact. Whether it is good or bad, it is a protocol that is widely supported by nearly all hardware producers. By implementing it as a part of LMS functionality, it would allow the usage of any streamer with LMS. And that would mean that LMS will remain future proof. But that is only one possible way to go forward ...

[philippe_44]

UPnP/DLNA is accepted industry standard. That is a fact. Whether it is good or bad, it is a protocol that is widely supported by nearly all hardware producers. By implementing it as a part of LMS functionality, it would allow the usage of any streamer with LMS. And that would mean that LMS will remain future proof. But that is only one possible way to go forward ...

For having dealt a lot with UPnP, I can confirm what @bpa says: it is a terrible mess. It's just horrible and only the least common denominator might work, which is not much. In addition, it does not support multiroom which is a big show stopper for LMS.

[d6jg]

UPnP/DLNA is accepted industry standard. That is a fact. Whether it is good or bad, it is a protocol that is widely supported by nearly all hardware producers. By implementing it as a part of LMS functionality, it would allow the usage of any streamer with LMS. And that would mean that LMS will remain future proof. But that is only one possible way to go forward ...

Unfortunately that isn’t true.
Devices can be …..
Upnp/Dlna certified
Upnp/Dlna compliant
Upnp/Dlna compatible
Hardly any two are exactly alike.
It is a crap protocol with no proper standard

[bpa]

UPnP/DLNA is accepted industry standard. That is a fact. Whether it is good or bad, it is a protocol that is widely supported by nearly all hardware producers. By implementing it as a part of LMS functionality, it would allow the usage of any streamer with LMS. And that would mean that LMS will remain future proof. But that is only one possible way to go forward ...

Just because it is an industry standard doesn't mean it is good or that it works well or even properly. The router section of UPNP for plug'n'play operation resulted in big security holes.

There is a very small pool of LMS developers.
AFAICT the current implementation meets the original users requirements.
Why waste time re-developing something, which works well enough, when there are so many other thing to do.
If you really want it integrated uPnP/DLNA - you are free to re-develop or provide a compelling case to do so to persuade a developer ? what are users missing ?

[DejanM]

This post is not about UPnP or which protocol is better. It is about the future of LMS. The number of users is constantly decreasing and in, lets say 5 years, many of existing squeezeboxes will give up their soul. And what then ? Are we a community damned to slowly disappear ? Is there any way how LMS can survive in the future ? Or we do not care as long as party goes on ?

[slartibartfast]

This post is not about UPnP or which protocol is better. It is about the future of LMS. The number of users is constantly decreasing and in, lets say 5 years, many of existing squeezeboxes will give up their soul. And what then ? Are we a community damned to slowly disappear ? Is there any way how LMS can survive in the future ? Or we do not care as long as party goes on ?

There are many Pi based DIY players already and many players like Sonos work with the upnp plugin. In fact many users only have Squeezelite players so the number of LMS users may even be higher than it was before Logitech ceased production of players. Wiim players are supposedly adding Squeezelite soon as well. What are you suggesting that would improve things?

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[bpa]

The future of LMS will not be dictated by what players are available - there are plenty to choose from and will continue to be available.

LMS future primarily depends on support of new and different sources of audio and ease of control.

In recent times, the main LMS changes have adding new or better support for : Streaming services (e.g. Spotify, DEEZER,Tidal...), new formats (e.g. HLS, DASH, DSD, DFF), better MPEG-4, secure HTTPS, better podcast support (caching) etc., better UI via Material, better Radio metadata (e.g.RNP)

In demand: add/improve other audio source such as Amazon, Google, Youtube, Audiobooks, Audacy

Home Automation/Voice control may be another area of interest.

[garym]

If one counts squeezelite software players, there are likely more LMS users now than before Logitech dropped the hardware line over 10 years ago. Things will continue as long as they can. And when things no longer work and better options become available, things will change. I'm no longer using floppy disks, a palm pilot, vinyl, CDs, Cassettes, but I still use computers (more than ever), use a smart phone (better than ever), listen to music (better than ever).

[slartibartfast]

If one counts squeezelite software players, there are likely more LMS users now than before Logitech dropped the hardware line over 10 years ago. Things will continue as long as they can. And when things no longer work and better options become available, things will change. I'm no longer using floppy disks, a palm pilot, vinyl, CDs, Cassettes, but I still use computers (more than ever), use a smart phone (better than ever), listen to music (better than ever).

Even if all the streaming services stopped working I could easily get by on local music [emoji3]

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[philippe_44]

Some thoughts and questions

One thing I should add on UPnP: it’s not that the standard itself is that bad, but the validation and certification is a joke. And a standard is as good as its certification process. Specifying is hard and there is always room for interpretation, even for thorough developers. In addition, there are a lot of really bad devs paid nothing by companies that have no clue what sw development is. So you add both issue and you have UPnP