GAIN vs Amplify vs Compressors (Vinyl vs DVD)

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • cathcam
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2011
    • 221

    GAIN vs Amplify vs Compressors (Vinyl vs DVD)

    I just posted this over on the Audacity forums, I'd like to get an LMS perspective. I read a long thread here on the LMS Smartgain feature, but I pretty much don't use streaming music websites, only my own music.

    [Background: I'm on a kick to make digital copies of my entire vinyl collection, about 2,700 albums. I've already done about 700 CD's. I've almost exclusively used Audacity over the past 3-years and am still working on it. I get as many 12 vinyl albums done per week, so it's going to take a while :-)

    I keep the output from the process as VBR MP3, depending on the track, is circa 250kbps. I'm doing this so I can play my entire collection on random play by genre, year, artists etc. and create playlists of favorites. The MP3 files are stored on a NAS, backed up by another NAS, which is also backed up online. The music is streamed via a separate Logitech Media Server(LMS).]

    Problem: I use a logitech media server to stream music to every room in my house. The vinyl albums/tracks I've recorded don't play as loud as the CD tracks I've ripped. I've read about the recording levels in Audacity and pretty much follow the recommendations for levels. When I play back random tracks the CD tracks are always just a bit louder, no matter what type of music.

    There seems to be a couple of solutions to this.

    1. Use audacity AMPLIFY effect at the end of the editing to boost an album to as "loud" as possible. Easy enough on clean albums, but more time consuming on "noisy" albums. However, this doesn't seem to still get the "loudness".

    2. Start using compression - all sorts of reasons I don't want to. Not least it adds another layer of processing and issues.

    3. Use the Squeezebox/LMS gain control to try to achieve a balanced loudness. It's described here. http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/A ... Adjustment

    Question:Does Audacity set the gain volume adjustment metadata tags from your audio files?

    Is there a good article that discusses the general issue of vinyl loudness vs CD loudness, or how best to achieve a balance?

    Any recommendations?

    ++Mark.
    website: https://ctproduced.com
    discogs collection: https://www.discogs.com/user/4MC/collection
    ---------------------------
    https://ctproduced.com < Creed Taylor/CTI/KUDU
    http://markcathcart.com/about

    Running LMS Server, currently V8.3.0 - 1659590348 on Headless WIN10 System; music on Netgear ReadyNAS; Transporter(Living Room)+Duet Controller; Squeezebox Touch(Master Bedroom), (2x)Boom(Office, Patio), Radio(Guest Bedroom), Classic(garage), Duet(basement). Also using Squeezeplay on Windows 10. Use Orange Squeeze app on Android.
  • slartibartfast
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2010
    • 13173

    #2
    Originally posted by cathcam
    I just posted this over on the Audacity forums, I'd like to get an LMS perspective. I read a long thread here on the LMS Smartgain feature, but I pretty much don't use streaming music websites, only my own music.

    [Background: I'm on a kick to make digital copies of my entire vinyl collection, about 2,700 albums. I've already done about 700 CD's. I've almost exclusively used Audacity over the past 3-years and am still working on it. I get as many 12 vinyl albums done per week, so it's going to take a while :-)

    I keep the output from the process as VBR MP3, depending on the track, is circa 250kbps. I'm doing this so I can play my entire collection on random play by genre, year, artists etc. and create playlists of favorites. The MP3 files are stored on a NAS, backed up by another NAS, which is also backed up online. The music is streamed via a separate Logitech Media Server(LMS).]

    Problem: I use a logitech media server to stream music to every room in my house. The vinyl albums/tracks I've recorded don't play as loud as the CD tracks I've ripped. I've read about the recording levels in Audacity and pretty much follow the recommendations for levels. When I play back random tracks the CD tracks are always just a bit louder, no matter what type of music.

    There seems to be a couple of solutions to this.

    1. Use audacity AMPLIFY effect at the end of the editing to boost an album to as "loud" as possible. Easy enough on clean albums, but more time consuming on "noisy" albums. However, this doesn't seem to still get the "loudness".

    2. Start using compression - all sorts of reasons I don't want to. Not least it adds another layer of processing and issues.

    3. Use the Squeezebox/LMS gain control to try to achieve a balanced loudness. It's described here. http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/A ... Adjustment

    Question:Does Audacity set the gain volume adjustment metadata tags from your audio files?

    Is there a good article that discusses the general issue of vinyl loudness vs CD loudness, or how best to achieve a balance?

    Any recommendations?

    ++Mark.
    website: https://ctproduced.com
    discogs collection: https://www.discogs.com/user/4MC/collection
    I would try replaygain first. You can use Foobar to add the tags.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
    Living Room: Touch or Squeezelite (Pi3B) > Topping E30 > Audiolab 8000A > Monitor Audio S5 + BK200-XLS DF
    Bedroom: Radio
    Bathroom: Radio

    Comment

    • Mike Sargent
      Senior Member
      • Jul 2011
      • 640

      #3
      Originally posted by cathcam
      I keep the output from the process as VBR MP3, depending on the track, is circa 250kbps.
      Why on earth are you going to all the effort to rip vinyl and use MP3. That's a lossy format. That means you are purposely throwing away some of the sound from the vinyl.

      Rip them to FLAC so you will never have to do it again.

      Mike

      Comment

      • d6jg
        Senior Member
        • Feb 2011
        • 8652

        #4
        Originally posted by Mike Sargent
        Why on earth are you going to all the effort to rip vinyl and use MP3. That's a lossy format. That means you are purposely throwing away some of the sound from the vinyl.

        Rip them to FLAC so you will never have to do it again.

        Mike
        +1

        Dump Audacity. Invest £25 in VinylStudio it will increase your productivity massively although it does take some learning.

        I have been ripping my Vinyl to FLAC this way for some time but I’m still not finished.

        My process is as follows.

        1) Record using VinylStudio and output to FLAC. Set VS to output in artist/album folder structure with cover art to folder.jpg not embedded

        2) load tracks into Foobar2000 and add replaygain

        3) move tracks to LMS library folder

        4) use Album Art Exchange to find high quality album art and replace folder.jpg accordingly. I try to use 800x800 or greater.

        EDIT The whole process takes length of album plus about 10 minutes per album.
        Last edited by d6jg; 2020-01-22, 20:05.
        Jim



        VB2.4 storage QNAP TS419p (NFS)
        Living Room Joggler & Pi4/Khadas -> Onkyo TXNR686 -> Celestion F20s
        Office Joggler & Pi3 -> Onkyo CRN775 -> Celestion F10s
        Dining Room SB Radio
        Bedroom (Bedside) Pi Zero+DAC ->ToppingTP21 ->AKG Headphones
        Bedroom (TV) & Bathroom SB Touch ->Denon AVR ->Mordaunt Short M10s + Kef ceiling speakers
        Guest Room Joggler > Denon RCFN8 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes

        Comment

        • cathcam
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2011
          • 221

          #5
          MP3 vs FLAC.

          First off, I could export FLAC plus almost any other format from Audacity. I'm doing the whole process for convenience and portability.

          In many of my rooms, cars, mobile players, my wife and I did a test and we couldn't hear the difference between MP3 and FLAC. Not every player I have supports FLAC. I have a 2013 Merc CLS550 that won't play them, and I can plug in a 1Tb USB Hard drive with MP3. To be fair, do you really think carefully produced MP3, or a FLAC file would sound any different on a Boom, Radio, or much anything except a Transporter, which I have in my living room. Even there, my wife and I struggled to hear the difference.

          Second, the first step of the macro I use on Audacity, post recording, saves the recording as a WAV file. I've had to go back to a few and rework them.

          I tried VinylStudio when I first started, and you are right, it was complex. That said, Audacity isn't that easy. I'll give Vinylstudio another go. Wavecorrector has also been recommended.

          You can hear a sample of what I've done hear, butchered by youtube transmission, also same website has mixcloud mixes. https://www.ctproduced.com/baddest-g...washington-jr/

          Of course, none of this helps with the original question equalization across tracks from different sources.
          ---------------------------
          https://ctproduced.com < Creed Taylor/CTI/KUDU
          http://markcathcart.com/about

          Running LMS Server, currently V8.3.0 - 1659590348 on Headless WIN10 System; music on Netgear ReadyNAS; Transporter(Living Room)+Duet Controller; Squeezebox Touch(Master Bedroom), (2x)Boom(Office, Patio), Radio(Guest Bedroom), Classic(garage), Duet(basement). Also using Squeezeplay on Windows 10. Use Orange Squeeze app on Android.

          Comment

          • slartibartfast
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2010
            • 13173

            #6
            Originally posted by cathcam
            MP3 vs FLAC.

            First off, I could export FLAC plus almost any other format from Audacity. I'm doing the whole process for convenience and portability.

            In many of my rooms, cars, mobile players, my wife and I did a test and we couldn't hear the difference between MP3 and FLAC. Not every player I have supports FLAC. I have a 2013 Merc CLS550 that won't play them, and I can plug in a 1Tb USB Hard drive with MP3. To be fair, do you really think carefully produced MP3, or a FLAC file would sound any different on a Boom, Radio, or much anything except a Transporter, which I have in my living room. Even there, my wife and I struggled to hear the difference.

            Second, the first step of the macro I use on Audacity, post recording, saves the recording as a WAV file. I've had to go back to a few and rework them.

            I tried VinylStudio when I first started, and you are right, it was complex. That said, Audacity isn't that easy. I'll give Vinylstudio another go. Wavecorrector has also been recommended.

            You can hear a sample of what I've done hear, butchered by youtube transmission, also same website has mixcloud mixes. https://www.ctproduced.com/baddest-g...washington-jr/

            Of course, none of this helps with the original question equalization across tracks from different sources.
            Replaygain should work to equalise the volume. Have you tried it?

            Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
            Living Room: Touch or Squeezelite (Pi3B) > Topping E30 > Audiolab 8000A > Monitor Audio S5 + BK200-XLS DF
            Bedroom: Radio
            Bathroom: Radio

            Comment

            • d6jg
              Senior Member
              • Feb 2011
              • 8652

              #7
              Originally posted by cathcam
              MP3 vs FLAC.

              First off, I could export FLAC plus almost any other format from Audacity. I'm doing the whole process for convenience and portability.

              In many of my rooms, cars, mobile players, my wife and I did a test and we couldn't hear the difference between MP3 and FLAC. Not every player I have supports FLAC. I have a 2013 Merc CLS550 that won't play them, and I can plug in a 1Tb USB Hard drive with MP3. To be fair, do you really think carefully produced MP3, or a FLAC file would sound any different on a Boom, Radio, or much anything except a Transporter, which I have in my living room. Even there, my wife and I struggled to hear the difference.

              Second, the first step of the macro I use on Audacity, post recording, saves the recording as a WAV file. I've had to go back to a few and rework them.

              I tried VinylStudio when I first started, and you are right, it was complex. That said, Audacity isn't that easy. I'll give Vinylstudio another go. Wavecorrector has also been recommended.

              You can hear a sample of what I've done hear, butchered by youtube transmission, also same website has mixcloud mixes. https://www.ctproduced.com/baddest-g...washington-jr/

              Of course, none of this helps with the original question equalization across tracks from different sources.
              Replaygain will work with SB Players if you set them up to handle it but as you are talking other players then I’d look at VinylStudio’s normalisation option. It lifts the volume permanently as opposed to Replaygain which is tags in the files that a clever player can read and interpret.

              The point made about FLAC over mp3 is that some of us can tell the difference even on what might be considered low end kit and if you have FLACs you can easily convert to mp3 if you wish but you can’t do it the other way round.

              I’ve digitised close to 1,000 vinyl albums. I stupidly started off with 320kbps mp3. I am now redoing those early ones to FLAC.

              dbPoweramp Reference edition is an excellent CD Ripper and also includes a powerful audio file converter.
              Jim



              VB2.4 storage QNAP TS419p (NFS)
              Living Room Joggler & Pi4/Khadas -> Onkyo TXNR686 -> Celestion F20s
              Office Joggler & Pi3 -> Onkyo CRN775 -> Celestion F10s
              Dining Room SB Radio
              Bedroom (Bedside) Pi Zero+DAC ->ToppingTP21 ->AKG Headphones
              Bedroom (TV) & Bathroom SB Touch ->Denon AVR ->Mordaunt Short M10s + Kef ceiling speakers
              Guest Room Joggler > Denon RCFN8 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes

              Comment

              • w3wilkes
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2009
                • 1924

                #8
                The subject of high bitrate MP3 and FLAC comparisons has been covered at great length on these boards. I personally use DBPoweramp LAME VBR -v0 -q0 for ripping as I have devices that don't do FLAC. In my own comparisons I can't tell the difference. One of the best threads on these boards on this subject is the results of a double blind test done by a user on these boards, @archimago;


                This multi part blog post covers all the info on how the test was done and the results of the testing;
                A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.
                Wilkes

                Main system - Rock Solid with LMS 8.5.0 on WHS 2011 - 2 Duets ( both WiFi, both work perfectly, new power supply) and Squeeseslave
                Cabin system - Rock solid with LMS 8.5.0 on Win10 Pro - 1 RPi 3 Model B (WiFi) /Hifiberry DAC+ Pro/PiCorePlayer and Squeezeslave
                Squeezebox Boom - "At Large" player around both home and cabin
                Headphones and car - Android phone/Bluetooth w/full library on MicroSD card - PowerAmp music player app (similar to Material Skin)

                Comment

                • BJW
                  Senior Member
                  • Nov 2012
                  • 273

                  #9
                  I used to DJ in a radio station, so here's my advice:

                  The most important aspect, is using the best record player and cartridge u can, to get the most signal into the computer without any clipping. So I would have the computer at 100% max recording level (sound card, software), and I would set the actual gain feeding the computer via an analog dial / fader somewhere between the record player and soundcard input. (In my case it was a studio mixing board... in yours maybe ur record player has an output knob, but if not, I would get a lil Mackie board with phono fader or similar, and VU meter, to set the gain prior to the soundcard).

                  In the station, we had studio mixing boards that let us control on the fly via a fader how much signal was going from the source to the output. We could monitor this on a VU meter.

                  When recording however, u should NOT make adjustments on the fly. Further it's hard to tell how to max the signal without clipping unless u listen to the whole album side to set the recording gain, before doing the actual recording.

                  So basically, u have to guess where the album side is loudest, and set the recording gain to its max at that point, without clipping. Easier said than done. Again, u should use that one point for the whole album side, and do not use compression for any reason. Personally I would not use normalization or amplify either, but I'm not sure they are big sins if u do. U can later break the album side into tracks, but doing it this way will preserve mastering intentions so relative volume differences between tracks is consistent as intended.

                  Once all the tracks are made, I would apply RG tags to it, album and track, and that will give u the consistent volume u want. Just make sure u only use gear that support RG on playback, and enable it.

                  Again, to me, the most important aspect is setting the analog gain to the best max fixed point for an album side.
                  Using: Win10 64 + LMS 8 & Duet & ipads w/the logitech app, and ipeng on an ipod
                  http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.ph..._Artists_logic & http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Compilations

                  Comment

                  • JohnB
                    Senior Member
                    • Jul 2009
                    • 638

                    #10
                    If I was using Audacity I would do the following

                    Set Audacity to record at 44.1 kHz 32bits

                    With 32 bits it isn't that critical to set an ideal recording level as you have lots of headroom to play with. Just make sure that the peaks are well clear of any clipping.

                    Then use Audacity to Normalize the whole album, say at -1 dB peak (-1 dB to give you headroom when you convert to mp3). This will apply a volume increase so that the peaks reach -1 dB or whatever level you choose.

                    Having said that, there is a problem with LPs in that you are likely to have multiple clicks, etc. Those clicks can spike to a higher level than the music. So ideally you should clean up the clicks etc before doing any Normalization.

                    Then reduce the bit depth for the whole album to 16 bits (with dither), save in whatever format you choose. Personally I would always save as FLAC (for a reference backup) even if I was then going to save as mp3 as well.

                    By the way, if you are comparing the overall loudness of your vinyl to CDs don't forget that it is quite possible that dynamic range compression was applied then the CDs were mastered. Not a good thing. (There is lots written about the loudness wars.)
                    Last edited by JohnB; 2020-01-29, 21:33.
                    Allo Digione Signature (+LiFePo Batteries), Touch, Metrum Jade, Bryston B4 SST2, PMC OB1i speakers, HP Proliant Microserver/Ubuntu, PC/Windows 10, iPad 4, iPeng.

                    Comment

                    • Mycenius
                      Senior Member
                      • Jun 2012
                      • 186

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Mike Sargent
                      Why on earth are you going to all the effort to rip vinyl and use MP3. That's a lossy format. That means you are purposely throwing away some of the sound from the vinyl. Rip them to FLAC so you will never have to do it again.
                      Originally posted by d6jg
                      +1
                      Yep +1 Here.

                      @cathcam - the thing to keep in mind is you don't know what you don't know - who knows where you will be in 1, 2, 5, 10 years... If you end end up with a higher end system sometime, or even if you get to the point your listening to current system adjusts enough you can tell the difference you will regret not having done lossless originals for your ripping (the ripping an MP3 copy from that).

                      Its good if you are saving WAV originals but you should tag these up into FLAC (with 0 lossless compression if desired) then rip your MP3's from that.

                      Originally posted by JohnB
                      By the way, if you are comparing the overall loudness of your vinyl to CDs don't forget that it is quite possible that dynamic range compression was applied then the CDs were mastered. Not a good thing. (There is lots written about the loudness wars.)
                      Indeed - well said. I never use replay gain or anything for anything - even on secondary or lower end systems. I always seek to play bit perfect and use the integral volume adjustment (analogue or digital) in the particular output device I'm using...
                      Hi-Fi 1: QNAP HS-453DX NAS+QLMS/Allo USBridge Signature+Shanti LPS/Cirrus ESS Sabre 32-bit Reference DAC (Oppo 105D)/Yamaha Aventage CX-A5000/Focal SM9s.
                      Hi-Fi 2: Sqbox Touch+Shanti LPS/Focal XS Books.
                      Hi-Fi 3: PC+Squeezelite-X+Material Skin/Focal XS Books.
                      Head-Fi: Plantronics BB Pro 2 LE Headphones.
                      Accessories: iPeng (iPhones/iPad Minis); Tchernov Classic & Van den Hul ICs; Thor PS10 Power Station; Blue Jeans & Ruleconnect Cables (Power, HDMI, USB & Coaxial); Aurios & Vibrapods.

                      Comment

                      • BJW
                        Senior Member
                        • Nov 2012
                        • 273

                        #12
                        RG is bit perfect. That's what's great about it.

                        There is virtually no difference between using RG to adjust the volume, or a volume knob on an amp. Same thing, except RG is far more convenient, esp in a random mix.
                        Using: Win10 64 + LMS 8 & Duet & ipads w/the logitech app, and ipeng on an ipod
                        http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.ph..._Artists_logic & http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Compilations

                        Comment

                        • cathcam
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2011
                          • 221

                          #13
                          Originally posted by JohnB
                          If I was using Audacity I would do the following

                          Set Audacity to record at 44.1 kHz 32bits

                          With 32 bits it isn't that critical to set an ideal recording level as you have lots of headroom to play with. Just make sure that the peaks are well clear of any clipping.

                          Then use Audacity to Normalize the whole album, say at -1 dB peak (-1 dB to give you headroom when you convert to mp3). This will apply a volume increase so that the peaks reach -1 dB or whatever level you choose.
                          Thanks for all this, it's pretty much what I've been doing since reading it, including re-digitizing many of the albums from the .flac saved files. Seems to be working out pretty well. The PS Audio Phono Nu Wave is able to send the vinyl signal via USB at 4800khz, 32bits, and so I've been using that. More is better?

                          Originally posted by JohnB
                          Having said that, there is a problem with LPs in that you are likely to have multiple clicks, etc. Those clicks can spike to a higher level than the music. So ideally you should clean up the clicks etc before doing any Normalization.
                          Check. I have an audacity macro that does the lifting that I've been modifying. I clean-up the clicks, peaks and manually repair before using the macro.

                          Originally posted by JohnB
                          Then reduce the bit depth for the whole album to 16 bits (with dither), save in whatever format you choose. Personally I would always save as FLAC (for a reference backup) even if I was then going to save as mp3 as well.
                          Don't do this, why would it matter? The first step of the macro is export, once I've checked all the labels created by the macro, I save the project, export multiple, tag files and store on the NAS.

                          Originally posted by JohnB
                          By the way, if you are comparing the overall loudness of your vinyl to CDs don't forget that it is quite possible that dynamic range compression was applied then the CDs were mastered. Not a good thing. (There is lots written about the loudness wars.)
                          Yes, it's pretty interesting to look at some of the CD versions of extended, re-mastered albums. Often the original tracks have not been compressed, and there at the end are the extra tracks, totally compressed. Weird....

                          I now have to work out how to migrate to a newer level of audacity, as they changed the way the macros work and I don't want to have to start over.

                          Thanks for taking time to reply John!
                          ---------------------------
                          https://ctproduced.com < Creed Taylor/CTI/KUDU
                          http://markcathcart.com/about

                          Running LMS Server, currently V8.3.0 - 1659590348 on Headless WIN10 System; music on Netgear ReadyNAS; Transporter(Living Room)+Duet Controller; Squeezebox Touch(Master Bedroom), (2x)Boom(Office, Patio), Radio(Guest Bedroom), Classic(garage), Duet(basement). Also using Squeezeplay on Windows 10. Use Orange Squeeze app on Android.

                          Comment

                          Working...