Handling HDCD

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  • RonM
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2008
    • 1491

    Handling HDCD

    I was Netflixing the recent Bob Weir documentary, and got to thinking that I had a fancy Grateful Dead product somewhere, purchased while in an "I should really try to understand the Dead thing" enthusiasm. I found it, and it is indeed a beautifully packaged 3-CD/1-Blu-Ray of Sunshine Daydream, the 1972 benefit concert in Oregon. It seems to be widely lauded as a great intro to the Dead in their prime, which is why I presumably bought it - but I never did anything with it, it seems, other than watch the movie.

    It's labelled as HDCD, which in theory provides some incremental advantages if properly implemented, and which is also in theory backwardly compatible with regular CD technology. I'm wondering if I need to do anything special to take advantage within a SB environment of whatever benefits the format provides? I did see (here) that some other Dead releases with HDCD don't actually implement the features of the format and don't offer any benefit. But this one is fairly recent, and maybe it does.

    So my questions:
    • Does LMS support the HDCD format, so a full rip will give me the benefits?
    • How best to rip, I think dBp supports the format in some way? Or some other way?
    • Can I just do a regular 16/44 rip from the disc and have a regular set of playable files?
    • Is there anything else I need to know?


    R.
    LMS on a dedicated server (PiCorePlayer)
    Transporter (Ethernet) - main listen ining, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm speakers
    Touch (WiFi) - home theater 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
    Boom 1 (WiFi) - work-space
    Boom 2 (WiFi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
    Radio (WiFi) - home office
    Control - Squeeze Control (Android mobile), 2 Controllers (seldom used), Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 4)
    Touch x 1 - spare
    UE Radio x 1 - spare
    Boom x 1 - spare
    Controller x 1 - Spare
  • garym
    Senior Member
    • May 2008
    • 13396

    #2
    Originally posted by RonM
    I did see (here) that some other Dead releases with HDCD don't actually implement the features of the format and don't offer any benefit. But this one is fairly recent, and maybe it does.
    Actually, it's the opposite. In general, the meaningful features of HDCD were more likely implemented on *early* CDs. Most, if not all, of the later Grateful Dead CDs are HDCD but do not implement the HDCD features that make HDCD any different from regular CDs (peak extension, etc.).
    • Does LMS support the HDCD format, so a full rip will give me the benefits?


    I don't think this is possible. As to get HDCD playback, one has to have an HDCD capable player. And squeezeboxes (hardware or virtual) would not be. There is a component in foobar2000 that allows one to play a 16/44.1 FLAC rip of an HDCD CD and play it back on foobar2000 player utilizing the HDCD info (just like using an HDCD CD player, or at least as close to this as possible given the reverse engineering of the component).
    EDIT: and foobar2000 with the HDCD component can also report information on files as to whether certain features of HDCD are present in the digital file.
    • How best to rip, I think dBp supports the format in some way? Or some other way?


    I use dBpa to rip myself. I rip these CDs to regular 16/44.1 FLAC files. Nothing special. And they sound great. One can use a DSP within dbpa to "decode" the files and backwards engineer to create 24 bit versions that "use" the HDCD information (these end up being 20bit files in a 24 bit FLAC container). If you're going to do this, note that these 24 bit versions are no longer bit perfect rips of the CD. I would say that best practice if you want these 24 bit versions is to rip to 16/44.1, then use dbpa converter and hdcd DSP to create a copy of the files with the HDCD DSP applied. If you want to really go down the rabbit hole re ripping HDCD, crack open a beer and start reading this thread:

    I apologize in advance for this lengthy post and its wordy questions, but after a lot of reading I'm still unsure what the best general approach is for ripping HDCDs, and from what I can tell there is no FAQ or definitive best practices recommended by illustrate. This might be a bit pedantic, but I'm really hoping those of you who know a lot about this can help me determine best practices in their absence. What I've found so far suggests when ripping HDCDs you should either: A. Rip them


    And by the way, I've taken several of these (including older ones that do use PE) to a friends house that has an HDCD capable CD player. Nothing too formal, but in a single-blind test (where I didn't know which playback method was being used, HDCD CD Player, or FLAC via streamer), I heard no difference and trying to pick which is which just led to random guessing on my part).


    • Can I just do a regular 16/44 rip from the disc and have a regular set of playable files?

    Yes. This is exactly what I do and they sound fantastic. I probably have more than 100 Grateful Dead CD sets that are HDCD (and again, many don't actually use the features of HDCD that would make it need decoding as HDCD to begin with).


    • Is there anything else I need to know?


    My approach is rip to regular 16/44.1 FLAC and play with LMS. Sounds great. Early on, I created some 24 bit versions with dbpa HDCD DSP, but after realizing that they sound the same (to me) except take up a lot more space, I decided it was a waste of time. YMMV.
    Last edited by garym; 2019-03-26, 14:03.
    Home: Pi4B-8GB/pCP8.2.x/4TB>LMS 8.5.x>Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio (all ethernet)
    Cottage: rPi4B-4GB/pCP8.2.x/4TB>LMS 8.5.x>Touch>Benchmark DAC I, Boom, Radio w/Battery (Radio WIFI)
    Office: Win11(64)>foobar2000
    The Wild: rPi3B+/pCP7.x/4TB>LMS 8.1.x>hifiberry Dac+Pro (LMS & Squeezelite)
    Controllers: Material Skin, iPhone14Pro & iPadAir5 (iPeng), or CONTROLLER
    Files: Ripping: dBpoweramp > FLAC; Post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes, TuneFusion; Streaming: Spotify

    Comment

    • slartibartfast
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2010
      • 13173

      #3
      Originally posted by garym
      My approach is rip to regular 16/44.1 FLAC and play with LMS. Sounds great. Early on, I created some 24 bit versions with dbpa HDCD DSP, but after realizing that they sound the same (to me) except take up a lot more space, I decided it was a waste of time. YMMV.
      Only yesterday I discovered that 4 of my albums were HDCD encoded. One of them "Flaming Lips - The Soft Bulletin" didn't contain any HFCD features but the other 3 did so I converted them. To be honest any difference is probably too subtle for me to detect but the file size of the 24 bit files was only very slightly larger than the 16 bit originals.

      Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
      Living Room: Touch or Squeezelite (Pi3B) > Topping E30 > Audiolab 8000A > Monitor Audio S5 + BK200-XLS DF
      Bedroom: Radio
      Bathroom: Radio

      Comment

      • garym
        Senior Member
        • May 2008
        • 13396

        #4
        Originally posted by slartibartfast
        Only yesterday I discovered that 4 of my albums were HDCD encoded. One of them "Flaming Lips - The Soft Bulletin" didn't contain any HFCD features but the other 3 did so I converted them. To be honest any difference is probably too subtle for me to detect but the file size of the 24 bit files was only very slightly larger than the 16 bit originals.

        Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
        Good point. I misspoke on the size. I recalled wrong (I think I was remembering sizes of 24/96 to 16/44.1 files). I just converted some files to HDCD with the dbpa DSP and they are only slightly larger than the 16 bit.
        Home: Pi4B-8GB/pCP8.2.x/4TB>LMS 8.5.x>Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio (all ethernet)
        Cottage: rPi4B-4GB/pCP8.2.x/4TB>LMS 8.5.x>Touch>Benchmark DAC I, Boom, Radio w/Battery (Radio WIFI)
        Office: Win11(64)>foobar2000
        The Wild: rPi3B+/pCP7.x/4TB>LMS 8.1.x>hifiberry Dac+Pro (LMS & Squeezelite)
        Controllers: Material Skin, iPhone14Pro & iPadAir5 (iPeng), or CONTROLLER
        Files: Ripping: dBpoweramp > FLAC; Post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes, TuneFusion; Streaming: Spotify

        Comment

        • RonM
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2008
          • 1491

          #5
          Thanks all. Just regular rip is what I'll do.

          R.
          LMS on a dedicated server (PiCorePlayer)
          Transporter (Ethernet) - main listen ining, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm speakers
          Touch (WiFi) - home theater 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
          Boom 1 (WiFi) - work-space
          Boom 2 (WiFi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
          Radio (WiFi) - home office
          Control - Squeeze Control (Android mobile), 2 Controllers (seldom used), Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 4)
          Touch x 1 - spare
          UE Radio x 1 - spare
          Boom x 1 - spare
          Controller x 1 - Spare

          Comment

          • Wombat
            Senior Member
            • Feb 2006
            • 1171

            #6
            A while back when trying HDCD decoding we found good reasons to decode HDCDs using Peak Extension.

            The free CUEtools/CUEripper software can decode HDCD also if i remember right.
            I decoded the few HDCDs using the Peak Extension and dithered them back to 16bit volume maximized because in the decoding process the volume is lowered.
            Some HDCDs only do a 1bit (6dB) volume level drop when decoded withoout doing anything else. It means they simply where mastered on HDCD hardware using no extra features but the info exists is in its unique dithernoise. I did not waste time with these.
            Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers

            Comment

            • bzlrbi
              Senior Member
              • May 2009
              • 153

              #7
              Originally posted by RonM
              I was Netflixing the recent Bob Weir documentary, and got to thinking that I had a fancy Grateful Dead product somewhere, purchased while in an "I should really try to understand the Dead thing" enthusiasm. I found it, and it is indeed a beautifully packaged 3-CD/1-Blu-Ray of Sunshine Daydream, the 1972 benefit concert in Oregon. It seems to be widely lauded as a great intro to the Dead in their prime, which is why I presumably bought it - but I never did anything with it, it seems, other than watch the movie.

              It's labelled as HDCD, which in theory provides some incremental advantages if properly implemented, and which is also in theory backwardly compatible with regular CD technology. I'm wondering if I need to do anything special to take advantage within a SB environment of whatever benefits the format provides? I did see (here) that some other Dead releases with HDCD don't actually implement the features of the format and don't offer any benefit. But this one is fairly recent, and maybe it does.

              So my questions:
              • Does LMS support the HDCD format, so a full rip will give me the benefits?
              • How best to rip, I think dBp supports the format in some way? Or some other way?
              • Can I just do a regular 16/44 rip from the disc and have a regular set of playable files?
              • Is there anything else I need to know?


              R.
              Foobar software utilizes the HDCD DSP linked above. This post summarizes:

              I just got a Jheena Lodwick CD marked 24/96. I presume this means the master was as it can't be the CD, most of the other writing was Japanese, where the disc originated. I ripped it to Foobar


              The Foobar HDCD plugin will decode such discs to 20bit and add four additional 0s for a total of 24bit.
              HDCD files can be easily converted to 24bit WAV, FLAC, ALAc or whatever one wants (rmemeber the real theoretical resolution is 20bit, not 24 which is only used for the sake of standarisation and compatibility). Converted files enjoy the benefit of HDCD but can be played on any player and not only in Foobar or WMP (Microsoft bought Pacific Microsonic's HDCD system).



              When I come across an HDCD disc in my CD racks, I'll use Foobar to rip it to FLAC files with the HDCD DSP. The resulting 24-bit files are only slightly larger than "regular" 16-bit files would be. I'll then listen via Squeezebox and can know that, if the HDCD tools were used, I won't be missing anything. (I'm a big DeadHead so I use this a lot. Lots of bluegrass CDs from the 90s also utilized HDCD.)

              I've found that all rips from HDCD discs, even to regular 16-bit FLAC, will retain the HDCD markers, i.e. even if the disc was ripped without utilizing the DSP, that same FLAC can be converted to 24-bit later on, utilizing the DSP, and the information is still there.

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