Home of the Squeezebox™ & Transporter® network music players.
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 55
  1. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,318
    Sorry, to be clear my comment was addressing the first part of your previous post where you pondered if two channel amps with "sub out" ports would actually bother with frequency filtering on those ports - and I think they don't. The rest of your post seemed to me to be taking about the frequency content of the normal line level outputs, no?

    I suspect however that we are in agreement that neither set of ports would be filtered.


    Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk
    --
    Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0
    Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums..

  2. #42
    Senior Member iPhone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    3,295
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Earring View Post
    Hi iPhone!

    Whilst some 2-channel separate pre-amps have subwoofer outputs (which will doubtless have some low-pass filtering applied, otherwise they would be no different from regular variable-level power amplifier outputs, as opposed to the fixed-level outputs usually denoted as "tape outputs" - whether anyone still uses the latter is questionable), this does not usually imply that the signal fed to the separate power amplifier or monoblocs will be subjected to a corresponding high-pass filter, since not everyone uses the subwoofer outputs. Some integrated stereo amplifiers (e.g. the Pathos Acoustics INPOL-2) also have stereo line-level subwoofer outputs.

    The only amplifiers which definitely will apply high-pass filtering at the line level beyond a line subwoofer output are multi-channel home cinema amplifiers specifically designed to be used with a 5(or 7 or 9!).1 (or 2!) loudspeaker configuration.

    So I suspect that your power amplifier(s) are still handling all of the low frequencies & delivering them to your stereo speakers (I am however in full agreement with your preference for twin subwoofers wired up in stereo to distribute the extreme LF soundwaves around your listening room & thus give rise to less room resonance issues)...

    Dave
    .
    Hi Dave,

    Apparently you don't have Vandersteen Speakers or Subwoofers. The reason one must have separates with Vandersteen Subwoofers or their Higher End Speakers is because the Vandersteen WX-2 or M5-HP is used to connect the output of the Pre-Amp to the input of the Amplifier. Vandersteen Subwoofers and Speakers with active Subwoofers don't use any thing like a Sub Out on a Pre-Amp or DSP which is why there is no drop out in frequency response as they are seamlessly integrated into the main speaker system additionally the subwoofer output is consistent with the output level of the mains without the issues of being too loud at lower volumes so that they are loud enough at higher speaker mains volumes again the volume is also seamless as it is controlled by the volume of the Pre-Amp going to the Mains!

    So no Dave, the Mains nor the Amplifiers are handling ANY low frequencies which is why it makes the Amplifiers and Main Speakers preform better because the Vandersteen Subs have their own dedicated 300 Watt builtin amplifier and the Speakers with builtin active subs have 400 watt amplifiers.

    I bought my first pair of Vandersteen Model 2 speakers from my next door neighbor in 1978 when his wife insisted that he had to sell his Vandersteen speakers before buying his new "Dream Speakers" so I have been familiar with Vandersteen Speakers for a long time. I used Vandersteen Subwoofers with Martin Logan CLS speakers and with both my Apogee Acoustic Caliper Signatures and Duetta Signatures to give those speakers some real bottom end as well as taking all the low bass frequencies off of them. I currently have a pair of Vandersteen Model 3A Signature speakers with two Vandersteen Subwoofers (sounds fantastic for the money) and a pair of Quatro Wood CT speakers that have the builtin powered subwoofer.
    .
    iPhone
    Media Room:
    ModWright Platinum Signature Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, Vandersteen Speakers: Quatro Wood Mains, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Video: Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1, Vandersteen V2W Subwoofer

    Living Room:
    Transporter, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1

    Office: Touch with Vandersteen VSM-1s
    Kitchen: Touch in-wall mount w/ Thiel Powerpoint 1.2s
    Bedroom: Squeezebox BOOM
    Bathroom: Squeezebox Radio
    Around the House: SliMP3, SB1, SB2, SB3
    Ford Thunderbird: SB Touch, USB drive
    Ford Expedition: SB Touch, USB drive

  3. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    372

    Line level active crossover

    Quote Originally Posted by iPhone View Post
    .
    Hi Dave,

    Apparently you don't have Vandersteen Speakers or Subwoofers. The reason one must have separates with Vandersteen Subwoofers or their Higher End Speakers is because the Vandersteen WX-2 or M5-HP is used to connect the output of the Pre-Amp to the input of the Amplifier. Vandersteen Subwoofers and Speakers with active Subwoofers don't use any thing like a Sub Out on a Pre-Amp or DSP which is why there is no drop out in frequency response as they are seamlessly integrated into the main speaker system additionally the subwoofer output is consistent with the output level of the mains without the issues of being too loud at lower volumes so that they are loud enough at higher speaker mains volumes again the volume is also seamless as it is controlled by the volume of the Pre-Amp going to the Mains!

    So no Dave, the Mains nor the Amplifiers are handling ANY low frequencies which is why it makes the Amplifiers and Main Speakers preform better because the Vandersteen Subs have their own dedicated 300 Watt builtin amplifier and the Speakers with builtin active subs have 400 watt amplifiers...

    … I currently have a pair of Vandersteen Model 3A Signature speakers with two Vandersteen Subwoofers (sounds fantastic for the money) and a pair of Quatro Wood CT speakers that have the builtin powered subwoofer.
    .
    Hi iPhone!

    If I'm understanding you correctly, you have an active line level subwoofer crossover unit (WX-2/M5-HP?) splitting the frequencies between your pre & power amplifiers & giving you the necessary degree of adjustment necessary to make your full-range speakers integrate with the subwoofers in your listening room.

    If this IS the case, then I agree that the power amplifiers driving your full-range speakers will indeed not have to handle the extreme bass which falls within the range of your subwoofers.

    For myself, I find that having set up my sub-woofers carefully over an extended period of listening (I always seem to set them too loud initially & then spend a few weeks gradually backing them off to integrate seamlessly at last) I now have no need or desire to adjust the settings further, irrespective of the volume at which I am listening.

    This suits me fine, I really just want to hear the music...

    Dave

  4. #44
    Senior Member Mnyb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Västerås Sweden
    Posts
    16,528
    The bassmanagment in my Meridian processor lets me direct the lowbas from all the other speakers to the sub out.
    So it not only LFE its index a real xover and the main channels do not need to play the lowest bas at all.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Main hifi: Rasbery PI digi+ MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub.
    Bedroom/Office: Boom
    Loggia: Raspi hifiberry dac + Adams
    Bathroom : Radio (with battery)
    iPad with iPengHD & SqueezePad
    (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
    server Intel NUC Esxi VM Linux mint 18 LMS 7.9.2

    http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

  5. #45
    Senior Member iPhone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    3,295
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Earring View Post
    Hi iPhone!

    If I'm understanding you correctly, you have an active line level subwoofer crossover unit (WX-2/M5-HP?) splitting the frequencies between your pre & power amplifiers & giving you the necessary degree of adjustment necessary to make your full-range speakers integrate with the subwoofers in your listening room.

    If this IS the case, then I agree that the power amplifiers driving your full-range speakers will indeed not have to handle the extreme bass which falls within the range of your subwoofers.

    For myself, I find that having set up my sub-woofers carefully over an extended period of listening (I always seem to set them too loud initially & then spend a few weeks gradually backing them off to integrate seamlessly at last) I now have no need or desire to adjust the settings further, irrespective of the volume at which I am listening.

    This suits me fine, I really just want to hear the music...

    Dave
    .
    Hi Dave
    Close but still not there, neither the WX-2 or the M5-HP are active/electronic (although the M5-HP uses a 9V battery for biasing purposes). But they are both high pass filters that are inserted between the Pre-Amp and the Amplifier so it is impossible for ANY low frequencies to reach the Amp or Speakers. But since the Subwoofer and the Vandersteen Speakers with active subwoofer are connected directly to the Amplifier outputs, only they receive the low frequencies. Have a look at the Vandersteen Website for the technical details:
    Active Speakers .
    http://vandersteen.com//media/files/...atromanual.pdf
    Subwoofers:
    http://vandersteen.com//media/files/.../2wqmanual.pdf

    Regards
    .
    iPhone
    Media Room:
    ModWright Platinum Signature Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, Vandersteen Speakers: Quatro Wood Mains, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Video: Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1, Vandersteen V2W Subwoofer

    Living Room:
    Transporter, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1

    Office: Touch with Vandersteen VSM-1s
    Kitchen: Touch in-wall mount w/ Thiel Powerpoint 1.2s
    Bedroom: Squeezebox BOOM
    Bathroom: Squeezebox Radio
    Around the House: SliMP3, SB1, SB2, SB3
    Ford Thunderbird: SB Touch, USB drive
    Ford Expedition: SB Touch, USB drive

  6. #46
    Senior Member pablolie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    bay area, california.
    Posts
    1,181
    I use a Velodyne Minivee and can recommend it. It is very solid and disciplined and -at least for me- provides all the bass I'll ever need.

    But I should also note that I am clearly not a basshead. I keep the sub at 10-20% volume (and often turned off). That may also be because the 7inch "Torrent" drivers in the Totem Element Fire speakers provide fun bass extension.

    Subs are tricky to set up to really complement your system. Less is more. I don't want a cello to sound like a blue whale's mating call.
    ...pablo
    Server: Win10 and LMS 8.1.0
    System: SB Touch -optical-> Benchmark DAC2HGC -AnalysisPlus Oval Copper XLR-> NAD M22 Power Amp -AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval-> KEF Reference 1
    Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> NAD D7050 -> Totem DreamCatcher + Velodyne Minivee Sub
    Computer audio: workstation -USB-> audioengine D1 -> Grado RS1/Shure 1540

  7. #47
    Senior Member iPhone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    3,295
    Quote Originally Posted by pablolie View Post

    Subs are tricky to set up to really complement your system. Less is more. I don't want a cello to sound like a blue whale's mating call.
    .
    Which is exactly why Richard Vandersteen designed his Subs the way he did. It is basically like adding an additional lower bass driver to any Speaker when used in pairs because the speakers base driver no longer goes all the way down as it is rolled off and crossed over where the Sub takes it the rest of the way to the bottom. This is why there are no issues or compromise like with the Line Level setting one has with standard add on Subs. Most add-on Line Level Subs sound great when the system is at lower volumes because the level has been set to accent and provide additional and extended bass, but as the system volume increases this sweet spot goes away and the Sub is overly loud and muddies up the overall system since it is a Line Level driven device.

    Just my thoughts, anyway Vandersteen basically took the advantages of an Acoustat 2+2 Speakers with their passive sub and the advantages of an active sub figuring out the way to use the advantages of both types without any of the disadvantages both happen to have.

    There are many brands of great Subs out there and many different ones work great when paired with specific speakers having specific needs
    that those Subs fill if one is lucky enough to get the right Sub with the right Mains. I got tried of buying and selling Subs trying to match things up. The Vandersteen Subs work whether one has Planar, Ribbon, Electrostatics, or Dynamic Speakers. The pair of Vandersteen Subs I bought to use with my Apogee Acoustic ribbon speakers are the same pair I have with my Vandersteen 3A Signatures (the poor man's Quatro Speakers when paired with Vandersteen Subs).
    .
    iPhone
    Media Room:
    ModWright Platinum Signature Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, Vandersteen Speakers: Quatro Wood Mains, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Video: Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1, Vandersteen V2W Subwoofer

    Living Room:
    Transporter, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1

    Office: Touch with Vandersteen VSM-1s
    Kitchen: Touch in-wall mount w/ Thiel Powerpoint 1.2s
    Bedroom: Squeezebox BOOM
    Bathroom: Squeezebox Radio
    Around the House: SliMP3, SB1, SB2, SB3
    Ford Thunderbird: SB Touch, USB drive
    Ford Expedition: SB Touch, USB drive

  8. #48
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    372

    Matching your subwoofers to your full-range speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by iPhone View Post
    .
    Which is exactly why Richard Vandersteen designed his Subs the way he did. It is basically like adding an additional lower bass driver to any Speaker when used in pairs because the speakers base driver no longer goes all the way down as it is rolled off and crossed over where the Sub takes it the rest of the way to the bottom. This is why there are no issues or compromise like with the Line Level setting one has with standard add on Subs. Most add-on Line Level Subs sound great when the system is at lower volumes because the level has been set to accent and provide additional and extended bass, but as the system volume increases this sweet spot goes away and the Sub is overly loud and muddies up the overall system since it is a Line Level driven device.

    Just my thoughts, anyway Vandersteen basically took the advantages of an Acoustat 2+2 Speakers with their passive sub and the advantages of an active sub figuring out the way to use the advantages of both types without any of the disadvantages both happen to have.

    There are many brands of great Subs out there and many different ones work great when paired with specific speakers having specific needs
    that those Subs fill if one is lucky enough to get the right Sub with the right Mains. I got tried of buying and selling Subs trying to match things up. The Vandersteen Subs work whether one has Planar, Ribbon, Electrostatics, or Dynamic Speakers. The pair of Vandersteen Subs I bought to use with my Apogee Acoustic ribbon speakers are the same pair I have with my Vandersteen 3A Signatures (the poor man's Quatro Speakers when paired with Vandersteen Subs).
    .
    Hi iPhone!

    I think your post makes a lot of sense.

    I took a different route, by getting a pair of (stand-mount, to suit my room) full-range speakers which I am comfortable with first & then getting hold of the same manufacturer's subwoofers which unsurprisingly are a good match for their own full-range speakers: I use a speaker level input which has an impedance of 10KOhm & consequently has no effect whatsoever on the power amplifier driving my 8Ohm nominal speakers, but permits the active crossover & equalisation in the subwoofer circuitry to make full use of their in-built 500W Class D amplifiers to extend their LF response. It's actually quite amusing: the (outboard) tweeters in my 2-way speakers have a transmission-line loading, the 6" Kevlar squawker/woofer is housed in a heavily braced bass reflex enclosure (with a flared & dimpled front facing port in a precisely-located position - it is an integral part of the driver housing & the whole assembly is then bolted into the cabinet as one piece) & finally my subwoofers are opposed drivers, firing sideways, in a sealed enclosure! But, it works for me & produces very musical sounds in my listening room.

    My tactic is to buy as much as possible of my gear second-hand which essentially means that I could sell it for more or less as much as I have paid for it, were I to decide to make some changes...

    With regard to your closing comment that your Vandersteen 3A Signatures are the "poor man's" Quatro speakers, I can only conclude (with regard to the rest of your kit) that poverty is a relative concept!

    Btw, what vintage is your Thunderbird?

    Dave

  9. #49
    Senior Member Mnyb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Västerås Sweden
    Posts
    16,528
    Time to come to the conclusion i actually bit the bullet and importet one Rythmik FV15HP in piano black gloss finish

    What to say it actually works ! And integrated seamlessly with my hifi ! That can not be said of the wast majority off subwoofers out there

    The plethora of settings usable linear range in conjunction with the DRC and bass management in my Meridian system makes it go.

    It’s considered a midsize sub in the USA :P it’s was bigger than expected outdoors it probably needs a building permit .

    I may have been able to reach similar performance with something else , but imho price performance ratio is hard to beat in this one . It’s SQ is as good as my Meridian speakers it has no problems fitting in .
    Long term quality and service . I can’t says it’s unknown at the moment.
    In my use case it’s not overextended in any way I will probably not be blowing woofers and plate amps .
    Attached Images Attached Images    
    Last edited by Mnyb; 2018-09-21 at 10:29.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Main hifi: Rasbery PI digi+ MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub.
    Bedroom/Office: Boom
    Loggia: Raspi hifiberry dac + Adams
    Bathroom : Radio (with battery)
    iPad with iPengHD & SqueezePad
    (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
    server Intel NUC Esxi VM Linux mint 18 LMS 7.9.2

    http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

  10. #50
    Senior Member Mnyb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Västerås Sweden
    Posts
    16,528
    Sorry for the sideways pics it’s a handicap you have when posting from an iPhone
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Main hifi: Rasbery PI digi+ MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub.
    Bedroom/Office: Boom
    Loggia: Raspi hifiberry dac + Adams
    Bathroom : Radio (with battery)
    iPad with iPengHD & SqueezePad
    (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
    server Intel NUC Esxi VM Linux mint 18 LMS 7.9.2

    http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •