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  1. #31
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    Subwoofer enclosure to maximise musicality

    Quote Originally Posted by Mnyb View Post
    But keep the suggestions coming .
    Get subwoofers (plural!) with infinite baffle design, & let the electronics + BIG Class D amps take care of the bass extension, if you want musicality.

    My B&W805S stand-mounts are themselves a hybrid 2-way design with transmission line loading on the tweeter (which doesn't need to be very long when the crossover is at 3kHz - that's precisely what the tweeter "pod" on the top is... ) & reflex loading on the squawker/woofer (in a VERY heavily braced & artfully-shaped enclosure - NO parallel sides... ).

    However my B&W PV1 subwoofers are a sealed infinite baffle design, with long-throw 8" opposed aluminium-mica composite drivers. The drivers are very light, but rigid enough to resist any cone break-up - with 2 of them (wired in stereo to help reduce modal resonances in my listening room, which is approximately 14' square & a TOTAL concrete box, breeze block/actual brick inner walls & concrete floor with beam & concrete ceiling - it certainly wouldn't make a good recording studio, lol) I have the equivalent of a single 16" driver, but without the overhang (owing to moving mass) or cone break-up (owing to the sheer size of the radiating surface) & the result is VERY musical low bass. If your room is huge, & 1000W isn't enough for you, get 4! They are now quite a bargain s/hand, B&W service is cheap & exemplary should you need it & the things actually LOOK quite sexy to boot - choice of silver, black or white, dependent upon your décor & of course your indulgent better half's preference!

    Nothing more to add (for once!) - try it & see for yourself. You can flog them on for the SAME price if they really don't ring your bell...

    Dave

  2. #32
    Senior Member Mnyb's Avatar
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    Yes most subs with closed box design are EQ'd to produce 20Hz . thats the only practical way else the TS parameters and size of the driver and cone mass gets absurd and it will not perform well at the upper frequncies .

    And B&W do still uses the force cancelling idea with dual opposed woofers in some current subwoofer models, and so do some other brands Arendal for example .

    Sadly i dont have the house for it to do a real IB design as oposed to a closed box . make a hole into the attic (or other ) crawlspace put multiple drivers there and control it with some EQ .http://ibsubwoofers.proboards.com/

    Also i'm not detered by size . A lot of engineering goes into making small subwoofers mostly for eastehic reasons , the cab should be the size it needs to be for optimum performance . As a lot of power is needed for the EQ alone making the sub even more ineficient by reducing size seems such a waste to me . why fight against nature .
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Main hifi: Rasbery PI digi+ MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub.
    Bedroom/Office: Boom
    Loggia: Raspi hifiberry dac + Adams
    Bathroom : Radio (with battery)
    iPad with iPengHD & SqueezePad
    (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
    server Intel NUC Esxi VM Linux mint 18 LMS 7.9.2

    http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

  3. #33
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    Agreed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mnyb View Post
    ... As a lot of power is needed for the EQ alone making the sub even more ineficient by reducing size seems such a waste to me . why fight against nature .
    I have quite a small room & it's nearly square (not ideal!!) - but that's why I have 2 tiddly "aesthetic" subwoofers wired up in stereo (for reasons explained earlier) with 1KW of Class D power (as the bottom end you can't hear the difference, lol, & there's a LOT less internal heat to dispose of... ) to compliment my Class A/B Pathos Acoustics Logos amplifier (biased to deliver the 1st 30W in pure Class A, which is about as much heat, c. 500W, as you can without needing noisy cooling fans... ) which gives excellent detail resolution across the rest of the audible spectrum.

    All I can say is that it sounds like Abbey Road Studio # 9 & 3/4 to me! My room IS however, not large...

    Dave

  4. #34
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    @Mnyb:
    A few months ago I was in a similar situation, looking for a sub that would match my "fast" and musical monitors. I also favored quality over volume and unsurprisingly ended with a list very similar to yours. Rythmik, SVS, HSU, etc. Then I somehow discovered the then new DB series from B&W. What sold me was their versatility and ease of use. Once the sub is hooked up and in place, the entire setup is done remotely via an app. All the features of the other brands are there (cutoff frequency, slope, phase, etc.) but in addition there is an automated room EQ plus a custom equalizer that you can add on top of that. Also, no more crawling across the room dozens of times to fiddle with the knobs, all the settings can be adjusted from the listening position.
    The app needs to be perfected as it doesn't always interact properly with the sub, but all in all I'm happy with my choice. You might want to give them a try. I know they're on the expensive side, but for me it was worth it for two reasons: the possibility to set up the sub in any system in any room without effort or additional hardware (and redo it as many times as I wanted without much hassle), and the fact that I actually did plan on buying a Rythmik, but when i added up the shipping to Europe and the additional expenses (customs, VAT, etc.) I came up with a sum very close to what I actually paid for the B&W.
    I should also say that aside all the geeky features the sub sounds nice. I particularly like that it doesn't harm the music. (Y'know, first do no harm...) Sometimes I'm actually disappointed because it adds little if anything to the sound, and when it does it's more like in terms of space or atmosphere instead of sheer impact.
    Anyway... I'll stop here, I already sound like a fanboi. All I'm saying, before you make your choice, give this series a try.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Mnyb's Avatar
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    Yes i also looked at Elac and Dynaudio and monitor audio who has very flexible setup options.

    And B&W can be had in the city where i live , so i could go and have a look
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Main hifi: Rasbery PI digi+ MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub.
    Bedroom/Office: Boom
    Loggia: Raspi hifiberry dac + Adams
    Bathroom : Radio (with battery)
    iPad with iPengHD & SqueezePad
    (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
    server Intel NUC Esxi VM Linux mint 18 LMS 7.9.2

    http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

  6. #36
    Senior Member iPhone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnyb View Post
    Yes i also looked at Elac and Dynaudio and monitor audio who has very flexible setup options.

    And B&W can be had in the city where i live , so i could go and have a look
    .
    It is really hard to match/beat REL Acoustic or Vandersteen subwoofers if one is looking for musical truth and not just noisy BOOM. The huge advantage Vandersteen has is if one is using separates so that the Vandersteen subwoofer can be acquire its signal from being installed between the pre-amp and amplifier. This also removes the low frequency duties from the system amplifier so it sounds and preforms better also. I prefer subwoofer pairs so that the bass from each channel is handled specifically by its own drive/voice coil instead of it being blended between a single dual voice coil. Yes true bass frequencies are not directional or in what one would call true stereo, but in properly recorded music, the actual left and right bass tracks are NOT identical hence I prefer to have an actual left and right subwoofer.
    iPhone
    Media Room:
    ModWright Platinum Signature Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, Vandersteen Speakers: Quatro Wood Mains, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Video: Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1, Vandersteen V2W Subwoofer

    Living Room:
    Transporter, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1

    Office: Touch with Vandersteen VSM-1s
    Kitchen: Touch in-wall mount w/ Thiel Powerpoint 1.2s
    Bedroom: Squeezebox BOOM
    Bathroom: Squeezebox Radio
    Around the House: SliMP3, SB1, SB2, SB3
    Ford Thunderbird: SB Touch, USB drive
    Ford Expedition: SB Touch, USB drive

  7. #37
    Senior Member Mnyb's Avatar
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    All my music goes trough my digital souround processor/digital preamp and i have sub out(s) and crossover and bassmanagment there. And room corection.
    So in my use case the sub does not need to have xover for the other speakers thats handled by the processor .

    And REL speakerlevel conection does not apply either on my digital active speakers .

    In fact my only analog cable/conection is the subwoofer cable .
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Main hifi: Rasbery PI digi+ MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub.
    Bedroom/Office: Boom
    Loggia: Raspi hifiberry dac + Adams
    Bathroom : Radio (with battery)
    iPad with iPengHD & SqueezePad
    (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
    server Intel NUC Esxi VM Linux mint 18 LMS 7.9.2

    http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

  8. #38
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    Subwoofer line outputs

    Quote Originally Posted by iPhone View Post
    .
    It is really hard to match/beat REL Acoustic or Vandersteen subwoofers if one is looking for musical truth and not just noisy BOOM. The huge advantage Vandersteen has is if one is using separates so that the Vandersteen subwoofer can be acquire its signal from being installed between the pre-amp and amplifier. This also removes the low frequency duties from the system amplifier so it sounds and preforms better also. I prefer subwoofer pairs so that the bass from each channel is handled specifically by its own drive/voice coil instead of it being blended between a single dual voice coil. Yes true bass frequencies are not directional or in what one would call true stereo, but in properly recorded music, the actual left and right bass tracks are NOT identical hence I prefer to have an actual left and right subwoofer.
    Hi iPhone!

    Whilst some 2-channel separate pre-amps have subwoofer outputs (which will doubtless have some low-pass filtering applied, otherwise they would be no different from regular variable-level power amplifier outputs, as opposed to the fixed-level outputs usually denoted as "tape outputs" - whether anyone still uses the latter is questionable), this does not usually imply that the signal fed to the separate power amplifier or monoblocs will be subjected to a corresponding high-pass filter, since not everyone uses the subwoofer outputs. Some integrated stereo amplifiers (e.g. the Pathos Acoustics INPOL-2) also have stereo line-level subwoofer outputs.

    The only amplifiers which definitely will apply high-pass filtering at the line level beyond a line subwoofer output are multi-channel home cinema amplifiers specifically designed to be used with a 5(or 7 or 9!).1 (or 2!) loudspeaker configuration.

    So I suspect that your power amplifier(s) are still handling all of the low frequencies & delivering them to your stereo speakers (I am however in full agreement with your preference for twin subwoofers wired up in stereo to distribute the extreme LF soundwaves around your listening room & thus give rise to less room resonance issues)...

    Dave

  9. #39
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    Actually apart from the modern DSP-equipped digital amps with subwoofer outs I think you'll likely find that almost all "sub outs" on analogue two channel gear are essentially rebadged pre-outs with no frequency filtering applied.


    Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk
    --
    Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0
    Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k albums..

  10. #40
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    Subwoofer line outputs

    Quote Originally Posted by drmatt View Post
    Actually apart from the modern DSP-equipped digital amps with subwoofer outs I think you'll likely find that almost all "sub outs" on analogue two channel gear are essentially rebadged pre-outs with no frequency filtering applied.


    Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk
    Exactly...

    Dave

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