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  1. #81
    Senior Member Mnyb's Avatar
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    1. You really seems to mean your use case and think your use case is representative for a “majority” a common fallacy it’s your bias in this . But it is an opinion one can have so ok .

    2. Does it matters at all ? All tag and rip software I used gives you the power to add any tag you like for example comp tags.
    Its up the user to use it. Insert a CD automatically populate tags and press rip ? This is an user error that gives you bad metadata.
    For a very large percentage of your records .You can’t design around that ?

    My thoughts. You cant design arond that folks wont fix tag errors due to bad default settings and bad metadata sources in rippers
    Many even wanted automatic ripping ? So one cant in advance second guess shoddy tagging.
    “Various artist” as track artists is just wrong as “album artist” it can be used.


    3. It’s a bug but the user workaround is so simple , that given the scarcity of qualified dev time . Meh no high priority imho.

    4 . No issue with a pref to toggle VA logic it does not rock the boat everyone can have it their way . This is an ok change.

    Off topic I dont think scan times is a problem. I’ll argues for a more complex scan so that all settings that forces a rescan can be removed it can all be in the dB once done.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnyb View Post
    1. You really seems to mean your use case and think your use case is representative for a “majority” a common fallacy it’s your bias in this . But it is an opinion one can have so ok .

    2. Does it matters at all ? All tag and rip software I used gives you the power to add any tag you like for example comp tags.
    Its up the user to use it. Insert a CD automatically populate tags and press rip ? This is an user error that gives you bad metadata.
    For a very large percentage of your records .You can’t design around that ?

    My thoughts. You cant design arond that folks wont fix tag errors due to bad default settings and bad metadata sources in rippers
    Many even wanted automatic ripping ? So one cant in advance second guess shoddy tagging.
    “Various artist” as track artists is just wrong as “album artist” it can be used.


    3. It’s a bug but the user workaround is so simple , that given the scarcity of qualified dev time . Meh no high priority imho.

    4 . No issue with a pref to toggle VA logic it does not rock the boat everyone can have it their way . This is an ok change.

    Off topic I dont think scan times is a problem. I’ll argues for a more complex scan so that all settings that forces a rescan can be removed it can all be in the dB once done.
    I am in complete agreement with this point of view.

    To base an an argument on 3 pieces of tagging software that don’t write Compilation tags when the one with the greatest market share (iTunes) and at least as many others DO write said tags is just ridiculous.

    I have come across the Various Artists string bug but actually it was me that incorrectly populated the albumartist tag iirc. The workaround is indeed trivial. I agree it isn’t worth the dev effort as I am sure that Michael will have looked at it by now and the code changes required must be very significant otherwise he would have done it.

    For the record if I see a Compilation tag I delete it immediately but my ripper / tagger of choice has too many other features I do like to throw it away and use one of the non Compilation tag variety. I will live with an occasional album appearing in Various Artists when it shouldn’t and know that when it happens I may need to re-tag.
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  3. #83
    Senior Member Mnyb's Avatar
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    We can argue all we like , or agree to disagree .

    LMS is no longer a comercial offering a “product” so it’s eventually upp to the few poeple that actually commit code and maintain to decide what they want to spend thier time on .
    Mostly mherger and some other kinds souls .

    I also supose they don't do things that could be “disruptive” for some users or we there seems to be no consensus by the users .
    .by that i mean the forum . The only user our devs are in dialogue with.

    I would not try to argue on behalf some kind off “silent majority” or “typical user” .
    Thats just not doable i say whats my opinion thats all i can do.
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnyb View Post
    We can argue all we like , or agree to disagree .

    LMS is no longer a comercial offering a “product” so it’s eventually upp to the few poeple that actually commit code and maintain to decide what they want to spend thier time on .
    Mostly mherger and some other kinds souls .

    I also supose they don't do things that could be “disruptive” for some users or we there seems to be no consensus by the users .
    .by that i mean the forum . The only user our devs are in dialogue with.

    I would not try to argue on behalf some kind off “silent majority” or “typical user” .
    Thats just not doable i say whats my opinion thats all i can do.
    I use dbPoweramp for ripping. I try to remember to check tags before ripping CD. I always fill in Album Artist so if there are guest artists on some of the songs then it stays in Artist folder. If album is a true Compilation such as 'Original Club Ska' then I make sure the Compilation tag is True. If you search by Artist, LMS will search Compilations too.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Mnyb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by earthbased View Post
    I use dbPoweramp for ripping. I try to remember to check tags before ripping CD. I always fill in Album Artist so if there are guest artists on some of the songs then it stays in Artist folder. If album is a true Compilation such as 'Original Club Ska' then I make sure the Compilation tag is True. If you search by Artist, LMS will search Compilations too.
    Yep , that it does .

    Btw there is another recent improvement in 7.9.1 free text search , you will find your stuff
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  6. #86
    Senior Member dolodobendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnyb View Post
    Yep , that it does .

    Btw there is another recent improvement in 7.9.1 free text search , you will find your stuff
    And one to come, hopefully. (Right now, database IDs are scanned, too, generating "false" positives, see here.)
    Last edited by dolodobendan; 2018-03-14 at 06:13. Reason: Added reference
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnyb View Post
    1. You really seems to mean your use case and think your use case is representative for a “majority” a common fallacy it’s your bias in this . But it is an opinion one can have so ok .
    so you are saying this is NOT a FACT, to wit: many popular rippers do NOT ever set comp tags???

    really? thats your point?

    b/c it is demonstrably and obviously false.

    this is not about "my" use case. this is about out of the box usage cases for MANY popular rippers. what is so hard to comprehend about that?

    WMP, Winamp, EAC, and many more NEVER set comp tags. they just don't. and they represent a large segment, possibly even a majority of the marketplace. but getting hung up on how big a percentage of the market misses the point, b/c the point is whatever the amount, its big enough to matter!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mnyb View Post
    2. Does it matters at all ? All tag and rip software I used gives you the power to add any tag you like for example comp tags.
    Its up the user to use it. Insert a CD automatically populate tags and press rip ? This is an user error that gives you bad metadata.
    For a very large percentage of your records .You can’t design around that ?

    My thoughts. You cant design arond that folks wont fix tag errors due to bad default settings and bad metadata sources in rippers
    Many even wanted automatic ripping ? So one cant in advance second guess shoddy tagging.
    “Various artist” as track artists is just wrong as “album artist” it can be used.
    back to this cannard. god, can we please get past the garbage in, garbage out ruse?

    yes, it matters. why? it matters b/c if i am a user who say rips with EAC everything i want to, my music will show up as expected in everything, all other apps, as expected based on the metadata in the files, EXCEPT LMS!!! thats the whole point right there! its an out of the box bug in LMS, that doesn't even make any sense nor is easily found and diagnosed. there is nothing wrong btw with having "Various Artists" as your string for either field, there are many times thats the exact string users want in those fields, and its totally sensible. (and its also frequently the given string by the internet DB sources the ripper uses for VA titles, as one would expect)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mnyb View Post
    3. It’s a bug but the user workaround is so simple , that given the scarcity of qualified dev time . Meh no high priority imho.
    thats your opinion bc it doesn't affect your usage case. but it did me and would others who might not even notice they are being affected by it or know its an existing bug at all.

    also, something i haven't talked about a lot yet but is also true, queries could be much simplified by removing considerations for comps except when explicitly called for. this wouldn't change existing behavior but would greatly improve under the hood performance which is important on low powered devices, like NAS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mnyb View Post
    4 . No issue with a pref to toggle VA logic it does not rock the boat everyone can have it their way . This is an ok change.

    Off topic I dont think scan times is a problem. I’ll argues for a more complex scan so that all settings that forces a rescan can be removed it can all be in the dB once done.
    good lord, so you argued with me this whole time even though you agree with my request!?!?!? why????

    yes, i am only asking for the pref, one that is already basically written by Erland. and i also agree with you that we should be able to disable automatic rescans prompted by settings changes, so we can set all the prefs as we like first, and then manually toggle a rescan to start.

    in any case, there is no need for us to argue about all this, all i am asking for is a simple pref to turn off the VA detection logic, and a fix to the string conflict bug. once again, to be clear, this means that only explicit comp tags would be recognized as to comp status during a scan.
    Last edited by BJW; 2018-10-09 at 01:17.
    Using: Win7 64 + LMS 7.9 & Duet & ipads w/the logitech app, and ipeng on an ipod
    http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.ph..._Artists_logic & http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Compilations

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by d6jg View Post
    I am in complete agreement with this point of view.

    To base an an argument on 3 pieces of tagging software that don’t write Compilation tags when the one with the greatest market share (iTunes) and at least as many others DO write said tags is just ridiculous.
    no, whats ridiculous is to ignore the large part of the marketshare that does NOT write comp tags. THAT is ridiculous, preposterous, shortsighted, and buffoonery!

    again, how big doesn't matter, its big enough is all that matters. and moreover, its embarrassing for server to have such an inelegant and goofy bug, as a string conflict for the term Various Artists. its inexcusable frankly.

    Quote Originally Posted by d6jg View Post
    I have come across the Various Artists string bug but actually it was me that incorrectly populated the albumartist tag iirc. The workaround is indeed trivial. I agree it isn’t worth the dev effort as I am sure that Michael will have looked at it by now and the code changes required must be very significant otherwise he would have done it.
    no one even knew the bug existed until i documented it. thats the worst aspect of the bug, it isn't obvious! so a normal regular user, esp if they have a large library, might not even notice at first something is missing, thats the insidious nature of it. and even if they do, they may not realize what is missing or why? its an ugly out of the box bug that should be FIXED.

    Quote Originally Posted by d6jg View Post
    For the record if I see a Compilation tag I delete it immediately but my ripper / tagger of choice has too many other features I do like to throw it away and use one of the non Compilation tag variety. I will live with an occasional album appearing in Various Artists when it shouldn’t and know that when it happens I may need to re-tag.
    fantastic, but nothing to do with anything i am saying.

    let me be very clear:

    i am for LMS ALWAYS respecting explicit comp tags. ALWAYS.

    all i want, is for LMS to stop conflating strings with comp status and/or hiding music out of the box as a result. and i also want a pref to turn off so called "VA detection logic" that is how server detects prefs based on rules that may or may not classify something as a comp correctly, when no comp tags exist.

    i am not asking for the moon, this is not some huge ask.

    and once again, it is likely current DB queries could be simplified where comps are concerned as well, so under the hood performance could be improved.
    Last edited by BJW; 2018-10-09 at 01:18.
    Using: Win7 64 + LMS 7.9 & Duet & ipads w/the logitech app, and ipeng on an ipod
    http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.ph..._Artists_logic & http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Compilations

  9. #89
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    [OT]
    There is something going on with that Compilations...
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    A compilation album comprises tracks, which may be previously released or unreleased, usually from several separate recordings by either one or several performers.
    • If by one artist, then generally the tracks were not originally intended for release together as a single work,[1] but may be collected together as a greatest hits album or box set.
    • If from several performers, there may be a theme, topic, time period, or genre which links the tracks,[3][4] or they may have been intended for release as a single work—such as a tribute album
    LMS always "thinks" the later ones are always Compilations. Unless there is no other hint like Albumartist or compilations tag the first one cant be a compilation.

    There might be a better solution but unless you have a very good idea how to handle it and the skills to type the code for that handling we had to live with the fruits we able to get friom the lms tree.

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