Home of the Squeezebox™ & Transporter® network music players.
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 14
  1. #1
    Jason
    Guest

    Web forum (again)

    Actually, I'm still amazed that Slim hasn't started a web based forum as at
    least a sideline to the mailing list. I hate to break it to all the hard
    core types here, but computer newbies are completely put off by lists such
    as this, even to the extent that they might choose a competitors product
    (Roku) over Slim for no other reason than that a web based forum is easy to
    use and less intimidating than an email list server.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
    [mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com] On Behalf Of Kevin O. Lepard
    Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:17 AM
    To: Slim Devices Discussion
    Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)

    > PS: It would be MUCH more useful if this was on a web based forum as
    > searching and reading would be MUCH easier.


    I agree that searching would be somewhat easier on a web based forum, but
    overall, I much prefer this list as it is. I find it much easier to keep up
    on the discussions.

    I'd be happy to have my cake and eat it, too, but otherwise I prefer it this
    way.

    Kevin
    --
    Kevin O. Lepard
    kolepard (AT) charter (DOT) net

    Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free.

  2. #2
    Mike Hartley
    Guest

    Web forum (again)

    Jason,
    I'm a bit surprised too. I'm not a newbie by any stretch, but I really do
    prefer a web based forum. I wasn't thrilled with having to share my e-mail
    address with the world to participate in the conversation here. (Yes, I
    know that you can set up multiple e-mail accounts, but I wanted some
    information rather quickly) I know there is a strong geek-factor associated
    with the product and a strong independent flavor because of the open source
    nature of the product development. But there is also a goal to sell product
    to as wide an audience as possible, which means that the support/general
    information forum needs to be in the least intimidating, easiest to use
    format for the average consumer.

    Mike

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Jason" <jason (AT) pagefamily (DOT) net>
    To: "'Slim Devices Discussion'" <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
    Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 2:30 PM
    Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)


    > Actually, I'm still amazed that Slim hasn't started a web based forum as

    at
    > least a sideline to the mailing list. I hate to break it to all the hard
    > core types here, but computer newbies are completely put off by lists such
    > as this, even to the extent that they might choose a competitors product
    > (Roku) over Slim for no other reason than that a web based forum is easy

    to
    > use and less intimidating than an email list server.
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
    > [mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com] On Behalf Of Kevin O.

    Lepard
    > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:17 AM
    > To: Slim Devices Discussion
    > Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)
    >
    > > PS: It would be MUCH more useful if this was on a web based forum as
    > > searching and reading would be MUCH easier.

    >
    > I agree that searching would be somewhat easier on a web based forum, but
    > overall, I much prefer this list as it is. I find it much easier to keep

    up
    > on the discussions.
    >
    > I'd be happy to have my cake and eat it, too, but otherwise I prefer it

    this
    > way.
    >
    > Kevin
    > --
    > Kevin O. Lepard
    > kolepard (AT) charter (DOT) net
    >
    > Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free.
    >

  3. #3
    NOT a Slim Devices Employee kdf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    9,493

    Web forum (again)

    you would be less surprised if you had bothered to read the postings from Dean
    regarding the options. One ws given for a web forum, and the response was
    heavy on the side of making no changes until somethig with better options comes
    along. The decision was then annouced that the list would remain as is for
    now. Given this information, it is extirely unsurprising that this list is
    still this list. Slim Devices generally tend to stick to their word.

    -kdf

    Quoting Mike Hartley <mhartley (AT) comsolusa (DOT) com>:

    > Jason,
    > I'm a bit surprised too. I'm not a newbie by any stretch, but I really do
    > prefer a web based forum. I wasn't thrilled with having to share my e-mail
    > address with the world to participate in the conversation here. (Yes, I
    > know that you can set up multiple e-mail accounts, but I wanted some
    > information rather quickly) I know there is a strong geek-factor associated
    > with the product and a strong independent flavor because of the open source
    > nature of the product development. But there is also a goal to sell product
    > to as wide an audience as possible, which means that the support/general
    > information forum needs to be in the least intimidating, easiest to use
    > format for the average consumer.
    >
    > Mike
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Jason" <jason (AT) pagefamily (DOT) net>
    > To: "'Slim Devices Discussion'" <discuss (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com>
    > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 2:30 PM
    > Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)
    >
    >
    > > Actually, I'm still amazed that Slim hasn't started a web based forum as

    > at
    > > least a sideline to the mailing list. I hate to break it to all the hard
    > > core types here, but computer newbies are completely put off by lists such
    > > as this, even to the extent that they might choose a competitors product
    > > (Roku) over Slim for no other reason than that a web based forum is easy

    > to
    > > use and less intimidating than an email list server.
    > >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
    > > [mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com] On Behalf Of Kevin O.

    > Lepard
    > > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:17 AM
    > > To: Slim Devices Discussion
    > > Subject: [slim] Web forum (again)
    > >
    > > > PS: It would be MUCH more useful if this was on a web based forum as
    > > > searching and reading would be MUCH easier.

    > >
    > > I agree that searching would be somewhat easier on a web based forum, but
    > > overall, I much prefer this list as it is. I find it much easier to keep

    > up
    > > on the discussions.
    > >
    > > I'd be happy to have my cake and eat it, too, but otherwise I prefer it

    > this
    > > way.
    > >
    > > Kevin
    > > --
    > > Kevin O. Lepard
    > > kolepard (AT) charter (DOT) net
    > >
    > > Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free.
    > >

  4. #4
    Philip Meyer
    Guest

    Web forum (again)

    I totally disagree. I hate web forums. There is practically nothing going for them. I can't really see any benefits, just lots of negatives.

    >For customers who don't wish to be
    >involved in the technical details of the Squeezebox, the lack of a web forum
    >is a big problem.

    Why? Will the content of traffic change if the list suddenly becomes a forum? Are you saying that emails are too technical?

    >Forums work very well for many products and interests

    Forums also work very badly for many products and interests.

    >I participate in several. Eventually, as list traffic increases, it will be the only option.

    I participate in several too, and that's the problem - I have to log on to several different sites, using different accounts and passwords. I don't participate in those really. I look in there occasionally, but I certainly miss a lot of useful things as a result. I'm much less likely to participate.

    The only way I can see a forum helping when list traffic increases, is that less people are likely to post, as less people will read it!

    I do think it would be worth splitting the discussion list into a few separate lists though. Perhaps one for discussion of bugs, and another for discussion of new ideas, enhancement requests, etc. Perhaps a general chat list too (make this one a forum if you must for newbies that don't understand how emails work???).

    Phil

  5. #5
    NOT a Slim Devices Employee kdf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    9,493

    Web forum (again)

    If anyone can name a package that provides a web forum system, with the option
    for individual emails to and from the forum, then I'll be the first one to
    carry the flag for the charge. Until then, that is the ONLY way to satisfy the
    two sides of this argument, no matter how much either side rants. Change for
    change sake is pointless. Changing from one format that lets agree 50%
    dislike, to another format that 50% dislike is pointless. Arguing about it
    continuously, while using the point that the traffic in this email list is the
    problem...well, you can sort that one out

    I put the challenge forth. find a package that does both. A forum with only
    digest emails doesn't cut it, they must be individual. The harsh fact is that
    slimserver relies on it contributors, and those are technical people. From
    what I can tell, they are possibly the more vocal on the side of email. It
    seems a solid plan to not want to lsoe them just to 'maybe' gain more occsional
    forum readers. How are they served if those who give so much time to offer
    help, are no longer around to offer help? As for splitting up lists, I propose
    an ihatemails (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com to help clear up some traffic More
    seriously, there is a lot of traffic that could be aimed through the dev list
    instead since that is probably a better home for the more technical
    discussions.

    I expect I've just confirmed some people's feeling that I'm mr meanie, but I
    also expect perhaps a few people will be pissed off enough to prove me stupid
    and actually FIND the package that will solve the problem.

    On the plus side, I'm going to bow out of this topic, and any others that
    continue the same old argument (and same old points) without a valid solution
    to answer to both sides.

    cheers,
    kdf
    ps...keep smilin'; I am.

  6. #6
    Aaron Zinck
    Guest

    Web forum (again)

    Perhaps a newsreader accomodate you with most of these issues? I don't
    receive any slim emails--whenever I want to check the slim list I just fire
    up my newsreader and the threads appear neatly before me, sortable by any
    field. Threads that contain unread messages show in bold so that I can
    quickly get caught up on the latest news, and I can block threads in which I
    have no interest. Pretty straightforward!


    "John M." <mail (AT) machtinger (DOT) com> wrote in message
    news:200412180017.iBI0HSeJ024330 (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com...
    > Quoting Phil:
    >
    > > I totally disagree. I hate web forums. There is practically
    > > nothing going for them. I can't really see any benefits,
    > > just lots of negatives.

    >
    > The main benefit is that you don't have to go through 50+ e-mails a day

    just
    > to see the topics you're interested in. Most people aren't interested in
    > Perl programming, but some are. Most people don't listen to National

    Public
    > Radio over their SB, but some do. People can participate in the topics

    that
    > are of interest to them, and don't have to deal with a load of e-mail.
    >
    > If I go out of town for a week, I'll have 250 e-mail messages in my Slim
    > mailbox. I'm an enthusiast, but my new SB is only one of my interests.

    Do
    > I want to go through 250 e-mail messages? What a hassle! Just think

    about
    > what the more casual SB owners will have to do: not participate in the
    > e-mail list(s), and then manually search the Discuss list archives to find
    > the answer to their questions. Or use the gmane web interface to the

    list,
    > which is not very enjoyable to use considering the web-based forums most
    > people are used to.
    >
    > > I participate in several too, and that's the problem - I have
    > > to log on to several different sites, using different
    > > accounts and passwords. I don't participate in those really.
    > > I look in there occasionally, but I certainly miss a lot of
    > > useful things as a result. I'm much less likely to participate.

    >
    > You're the second person today who mentioned having to log onto the forums
    > and use different passwords. That doesn't make sense to me. Don't you

    use
    > cookies? Do you browse the whole web without cookies? I never have to

    log
    > in to any web forum. When I go to the website it always says Welcome John
    > (or something like that). Even if you don't use cookies, you can use the
    > same password for each forum if you want. Web forum passwords don't have

    to
    > be secure. The liklihood someone will use your password to log onto a
    > different forum and make posts is very remote.
    >
    > As far as participating, you can particpate as much as you want to. If
    > you're a dedicated e-mail list user, you would be a dedicated web forum
    > user. It's the exact same communications that are going on. They're just
    > arranged differently. Sometimes it's easier to chime in with a response

    to
    > a specific e-mail than it is to decide to post on a forum thread. But
    > that's the price for everything being neatly arranged by topic.
    >
    > > I do think it would be worth splitting the discussion list
    > > into a few separate lists though. Perhaps one for discussion
    > > of bugs, and another for discussion of new ideas, enhancement
    > > requests, etc. Perhaps a general chat list too (make this
    > > one a forum if you must for newbies that don't understand how
    > > emails work???).

    >
    > I can imagine my father saying, "I won't learn how to use a computer

    because
    > that's for newbies. Doesn't anyone use a typewriter anymore?" Which one

    is
    > the modern method?
    >
    > I don't want to take away anyone's e-mail list. If this list is part of

    how
    > I arrived at my SB and my software and everything else I got for
    > $210+shipping+sales tax, then I'm all for keeping things the way they are.
    > But this is a competetive marketplace, and I think whatever suits the SB
    > best is what should be done.
    >
    > If the list means that casual users will chose an inferior device by
    > Creative instead because they perceive a lack of available product

    support,
    > then a web forum would be better. If keeping things e-mail based means

    that
    > the SB will always be updated and supported by an active user community

    that
    > would not exist without the e-mail list, then that's the best thing for

    it.
    > All I know is that I love my new SB, I'm listening to my CDs again, and I
    > want this company to stay strong.

  7. #7
    Jack Coates
    Guest

    Web forum (again)

    Philip Meyer wrote:
    > I totally disagree. I hate web forums. There is practically nothing going for them. I can't really see any benefits, just lots of negatives.
    >


    same here.

    >
    >>For customers who don't wish to be
    >>involved in the technical details of the Squeezebox, the lack of a web forum
    >>is a big problem.

    >
    > Why? Will the content of traffic change if the list suddenly becomes a forum? Are you saying that emails are too technical?
    >


    I think I finally figured this out during the last stupid argument on
    this stupid subject. The issue is apparently people who are too [insert
    a non-derogatory term that fits here] to change email clients from
    Outlook/Outlook Express, which apparently have poor filtering rules and
    are unable to reliably manage email lists. It's been many years since I
    used either, but I seem to recall they could do this sort of thing back
    in the '98 versions, so maybe it's a general configuration issue.

    At this point, I hope that Slim Devices does start a forum, in addition
    to this list, purely in order to stop the arguments. I think that we've
    established pretty clearly that some of us really want a forum, some of
    us really want mailing lists, and neither party can figure out what's
    wrong with the other party (but both parties are certain that there's
    something wrong with those people). Since there doesn't seem to be a
    technological solution allowing for having+eating cake, allowing the
    community to split along this natural fault line seems like an okay
    solution.

    >
    >>Forums work very well for many products and interests

    >
    > Forums also work very badly for many products and interests.
    >
    >
    >>I participate in several. Eventually, as list traffic increases, it will be the only option.

    >
    > I participate in several too, and that's the problem - I have to log on to several different sites, using different accounts and passwords. I don't participate in those really. I look in there occasionally, but I certainly miss a lot of useful things as a result. I'm much less likely to participate.
    >
    > The only way I can see a forum helping when list traffic increases, is that less people are likely to post, as less people will read it!
    >
    > I do think it would be worth splitting the discussion list into a few separate lists though. Perhaps one for discussion of bugs, and another for discussion of new ideas, enhancement requests, etc. Perhaps a general chat list too (make this one a forum if you must for newbies that don't understand how emails work???).
    >
    > Phil


    I'm a member of several so that I can use them when I have to, but I
    don't actively participate in any of them because the technology is
    unacceptably user-unfriendly to 32 year old dinosaurs like me :-) I'm
    not going to participate on a Slim Devices forum either. Both community
    technologies should probably be provided, since this particular
    community is spinning its wheels over a ridiculous issue.

    --
    Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org: It's a Scientific Venture...
    Riding the Emergency Third Rail Power Trip since 1996!

  8. #8
    Philip Meyer
    Guest

    Web forum (again)

    >The main benefit is that you don't have to go through 50+ e-mails a day just
    >to see the topics you're interested in.

    I don't see how a forum helps with that? Whether 50+ emails or 50+ postings to a forum, you still have to look at them in order to see the topics you're interested in. Personally, I find email easier and faster at managing this process.

    >Most people aren't interested in Perl programming, but some are.

    So:
    1. The programming messages should be posted to the developers mailing list; if an individual doesn't want that list, he shouldn't subscribe to it!

    2. If there is a topic that you are not interested in, mark the topic as ignore, or read, and don't read it! Just because it's an email doesn't mean you have to read it.

    >People can participate in the topics that
    >are of interest to them, and don't have to deal with a load of e-mail.
    >

    People can participate in the topics that are of interest to them, and don't have to deal with a load of website navigation.

    >If I go out of town for a week, I'll have 250 e-mail messages in my Slim
    >mailbox. I'm an enthusiast, but my new SB is only one of my interests. Do
    >I want to go through 250 e-mail messages? What a hassle!
    >

    But the fact we may have 250+ email messages is a good thing, as we know exactly what posts need to be quick-scanned to catch up. If I want to read all new posts, I can easily identify them. If I am a more casual reader, I may unsubscribe whilst I'm away, or simply mark all posts as read when I get back.

    What benefit does a forum give here? If there were a few threads I was interested in, and I wanted to see new thread postings, I'd have to navigate through a series of web pages to see what has changed. What a hassle!

    >If the list means that casual users will chose an inferior device by
    >Creative instead because they perceive a lack of available product support,
    >then a web forum would be better.

    There is a website offering many options for tech support. I can't see any perceived lack of product support from slim devices.

    I have recently used the Creative web forum actually. I wanted to ask a question about an incompatibility between my soundcard and an application. I posted the question and didn't get any response. I kept checking back every day, logging in, and then trying to find the correct sub-forum, then scrolling around trying to find my topic post. They probably don't get to see every post, missing the occasional one as it can't be that obvious that there are new posts. I think I should have emailed tech support instead.

    >All I know is that I love my new SB, I'm listening to my CDs again, and I
    >want this company to stay strong.
    >

    Ah, I agree with that!

    Phil

  9. #9
    Philip Meyer
    Guest

    Web forum (again)

    >How can there be "nothing" going for them when they are now how 99% of the
    >information for consumer products like the Squeezebox are relayed and
    >discussed?
    >

    Hmm, are you saying that Squeezebox is the least sucessful consumer product, that it's in the bottom 1% and slimdevices have to move to a forum to compete?


    >It's elitest/exclusive attitudes like this that are at the root of the
    >refusal to move forward.


    I hardly think moving to a forum would be a move forward. I'm just trying to put an argument forwards as to why email lists are obviously a better approach than a forum approach. You still haven't provided any counter argument.

    The web wasn't created for this sort of purpose. Emails and newsgroups were designed for this.

    Anyway, the list has been through this argument enough now. Let's just get on with discussing the fabulous product and listening to music!

    Phil

  10. #10
    John L Fjellstad
    Guest

    Web forum (again)

    On Fri, Dec 17, 2004 at 04:51:29PM -0800, kdf wrote:
    >
    > If anyone can name a package that provides a web forum system, with the option
    > for individual emails to and from the forum, then I'll be the first one to
    > carry the flag for the charge.


    I wonder if the solution isn't a better webinterface to gmane. You
    basically have the best solution to three worlds: email, newsgroup and
    web. And the gmane backend will keep all three groups insync. Of
    course, someone has to write that interface.

    --
    John L. Fjellstad
    web: http://www.fjellstad.org/ Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

    iEYEARECAAYFAkHEBgMACgkQkz0vhQtHHRguVQCghO/UL6Oy4bxyZcREWg4H1G0c
    kkIAniehg+YUvlb3BxfnlnEZsBxyV6uV
    =5LEB
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •