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  1. #521
    Senior Member Julf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darrenyeats View Post
    Julf, I have a DAC1. Set up the right way anyway, it's still a good DAC.
    http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/s...d.php?t=137152
    I have to agree with the comments from Werner in that thread.
    "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

  2. #522
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    Julf, for me the money shot is here: http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/s...8&postcount=11

    It is far from a single cycle in the example given. It's a macro-effect easily seen even at whole-track scale. It also happens to be one of my favourite albums, not an extreme outlier I googled or anything.
    Darren
    Last edited by darrenyeats; 2015-10-28 at 11:28.
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  3. #523
    Senior Member Julf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darrenyeats View Post
    Julf, for me the money shot is here: http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/s...8&postcount=11

    It is far from a single cycle in the example given. It's a macro-effect easily seen even at whole-track scale. It also happens to be one of my favourite albums, not an extreme outlier I googled or anything.
    Darren
    OK, I admit - that is definitely a convincing case. The track might not be an outlier, but the DAC is. So yes, if you have a DAC that has absolutely no headroom, then pre-scaling might be a good idea.
    "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

  4. #524
    Senior Member Mnyb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julf View Post
    Indeed, and yes, intersample peaks are an issue with older DACs, but I would expect modern designs to deal with it - it is pretty easy to do, after all.
    Yea but is it ? that would be something for audiorags to actually test ? there are actually some old AES pappers on it on the net it was done some decade ago . they scoped up some consumer devices to test that showed this problem ,given that many brands uses the same chips as any one else , we really have just a few of them so the problems was widespread then ? So yes I think its safe to assume it's a real problem . Given that benchmark has it as a selling point in 2015 I wonder how often it's accounted for in the competition ?

    New test for audiomagazines overload the filter (I saw some hydrogen audio tread where some dude had managed to get such peaks at +11dB )

    You can always turn the argument around why . It's actually the recordings that are broken ?

    But imho stuff should have healthy headroom . Just like a preamp should not collapse at 1.0-2.0 volts (yes they exist ) some robustness against the digital version this is proper design ,again imo
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  5. #525
    Senior Member Julf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnyb View Post
    Yea but is it ? that would be something for audiorags to actually test?
    If they actually cared about real differences - but that would scare away advertisers. Remember it is the advertisers, not the subscribers, that pay for the audiorags.

    But imho stuff should have healthy headroom . Just like a preamp should not collapse at 1.0-2.0 volts (yes they exist ) some robustness against the digital version this is proper design ,again imo
    Indeed. And as I keep saying, having the headroom (given the word length of modern DSP architectures) is not hard.
    "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

  6. #526
    Senior Member Mnyb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julf View Post
    If they actually cared about real differences - but that would scare away advertisers. Remember it is the advertisers, not the subscribers, that pay for the audiorags.



    Indeed. And as I keep saying, having the headroom (given the word length of modern DSP architectures) is not hard.
    Yes but are these ovesampling filter chips in most DAC really DSP processors, they where not in the past they where som hardware implementation ? DSP would be floating point at some incredible rate and software then just output to some word length suitable for the DAC chip ? then all is well

    Funny enough i suspect a phone can best many DAC's in this regards as they seems to have some really cool DSP onboard (in fact i think my phone beats my first DAC in every other aspect as well ... )
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  7. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julf View Post
    And as I keep saying, having the headroom (given the word length of modern DSP architectures) is not hard.
    Julf, I agree totally! Should never happen.

    See http://forums.slimdevices.com/showth...ge2&highlight= see post 13 and 18 onwards where Archimago confirms the same issue for his TEAC UD-501.

    As Mynb astutely points out, why is Benchmark making a song and dance about it for the DAC2? Perhaps the problem is much more common than it should be?
    Darren
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  8. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by darrenyeats View Post
    Julf, for me the money shot is here: http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/s...8&postcount=11
    Darren, could you explain how you got those waveforms? As far as I can see, they are screen shots from an audio editor, which presumably means that you recorded the output of the DAC to a WAV file via a soundcard.

    Is it possible that the obvious clipping we see in the second waveform might have been introduced by the soundcard at the recording stage, rather than in the DAC during playback? To be sure that this isn't happening, you'd need to attenuate the DAC output in the analog domain before recording it. Did you do that?
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  9. #529
    Senior Member Julf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnyb View Post
    Funny enough i suspect a phone can best many DAC's in this regards as they seems to have some really cool DSP onboard (in fact i think my phone beats my first DAC in every other aspect as well ... )
    Indeed. Many of the more advanced DACs have pretty good DSP capabilities these days, but the problem is that many of the high-end "designers" don't have the skill and capabilities to actually program them, so they prefer "just connect some exotic external components and put it all in an expensive-looking box" hardware solutions. Mobile phones are designed by real engineers who actually develop software and hardware.
    "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

  10. #530
    Senior Member Mnyb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julf View Post
    Indeed. Many of the more advanced DACs have pretty good DSP capabilities these days, but the problem is that many of the high-end "designers" don't have the skill and capabilities to actually program them, so they prefer "just connect some exotic external components and put it all in an expensive-looking box" hardware solutions. Mobile phones are designed by real engineers who actually develop software and hardware.
    Aha the "lets stick some tubes in it" solution that's why I refer to this as cargo cult engineering .

    I suspect that the chip vendors reference application is running in those chips , this may not be adapted to real world problems.

    Or if one is cynical if you can get some fraction of dB more to meet a design goal. To impress those who are impressed with specs . Why not .

    And the audiophiles will hear whatever they imagine anyway ,just design the product impressive enough and tick some boxes like impressive mechanical build oversized linear psu etc
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Main hifi: Rasbery PI digi+ MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub.
    Bedroom/Office: Boom
    Loggia: Raspi hifiberry dac + Adams
    Bathroom : Radio (with battery)
    iPad with iPengHD & SqueezePad
    (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
    server Intel NUC Esxi VM Linux mint 18 LMS 7.9.2

    http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

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