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  1. #1

    LMS 7.9 - Various Artists not listed under genres

    Hello,

    Just updated my 7.8 to a 7.9 on my main installation. Indeed it is very nice with the new additional browse modes. I have chosen the two separate lists for Album Artists and All Artists, but I still have a few issues somebody might be able to help me with, and I have searched the forum a lot to find answers, and maybe I missed something:
    a) Under the menu Genres no compilations are shown anymore: "Music to Watch Girls By" is not shown under the Genre "Easy Listening". It is of course shown under the new menu-item "Compilations" and the genre shows as "Easy Listening", but in Genres I only see Album Artists?

    b) All Artists-menu also show all composers. I think I read somewhere in here that it should be possible to fix, or it should have been fixed in a new build, but I think that was from a bug post posted late 2014?

    c) I've made two new menu items: Classical Composer and Conductors via the 'Additional Browse Modes' - is it normal behaviour that these items will not show in Orange Squeeze - or should I try working further with the menus?

    I know that is a lot of questions in one thread - but I'm not sure they should be handled as 3 different questions just because I might have missed some information or settings down the line...

    Best regards
    Ulrik
    Last edited by ucw; 2015-05-25 at 10:16.

  2. #2
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    Hi,
    Quote Originally Posted by ucw View Post
    b) All Artists-menu also show all composers. I think I read somewhere in here that it should be possible to fix, or it should have been fixed in a new build, but I think that was from a bug post posted late 2014?
    I have no composers at the All-Artists-menu. Are you shure that you only used the composer-tag or do you have some composer names in artist or albumartis tags?

    Quote Originally Posted by ucw View Post
    c) I've made two new menu items: Classical Composer and Conductors via the 'Additional Browse Modes' - is it normal behaviour that these items will not show in Orange Squeeze - or should I try working further with the menus?
    I have all these additional menu items in OrangeSqueeze. Have you activated the menues for the active player? Have you tried to restart OrangeSqueeze?
    Last edited by quadronado; 2015-05-25 at 11:02.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by quadronado View Post
    Hi,

    I have no composers at the All-Artists-menu. Are you shure that you only used the composer-tag or do you have some composer names in artist or albumartis tags?

    I have all these additional menu items in OrangeSqueeze. Have you activated the menues for the active player? Have you tried to restart OrangeSqueeze?
    Name:  Composer.png
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    Please view screendump, here a composer is listed in the 'All Artists' browse menu. Alle Kunstnere = All Artists - and when I check all metadata in the tag, 'Abrim Tilron' is only listed as Composer, and as showed in the picture he is listed in 'All Artists' in the main menu (Hovedmenu - it is in Danish, Kunstner=Artist and Komponist=Composer). I have done several full scans since installation of 7.9. I have listed 17300 artists in All Artists on 4700 albums, and that is a lot even with a couple of hundred 'Various Artists'-albums - and it do make the browsing rather slow and unstable when in the 'All Artists'-menu.

    I have now restartet all Orange Squeeze apps in the house, checked that the menu items is active on each and every player in LMS. Is there a setting in Orange Squeeze itself that I'm missing perhaps? The missing menu items can be found in the 'SqueezeControl' app and the 'SqueezeCommander' app.

    And thank You for a quick reply...

  4. #4
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    What have you chosen in Settings -> MyMusic -> Filter Contributor Roles? I just learned about this setting yesterday:
    http://forums.slimdevices.com/showth...l=1#post819300
    Maybe this could fix your issue with the composers?

    But for now I have no idea for your OrangeSqueeze-problem. Do you see the additional menus in the web-interface? I can find the menus in SqueezeCommander as well, but they do not work - they don't filter anything! In OrangeSqueeze everything works fine.
    Last edited by quadronado; 2015-05-25 at 23:03.

  5. #5
    Babelfish's Best Boy mherger's Avatar
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    LMS 7.9 - Various Artist not listed undergenres

    > a) Under the menu Genres no compilations are shown anymore: "Music to
    > Watch Girls By" is not shown under the Genre "Easy Listening". It is of
    > course shown under the new menu-item "Compilations" and the genre shows
    > as "Easy Listening", but in Genres I only see Album Artists?


    One more edge case, I guess. But yes, if you're using two separate
    artists lists, then compilations wouldn't show up in genres. Who wants
    them back? Hands up! Dissenting votes? Thanks you!

    I'll add this to my list.

    > b) All Artists-menu also show all composers. I think I read somewhere in
    > here that it should be possible to fix, or it should have fixed in a new
    > build, but I think that was from a bug post posted late 2014?


    Composer is just another artist role.

    > c) I've made two new menu items: Classical Composer and Conductors via
    > the 'Additional Browse Modes' - is it normal behaviour that these items
    > will not show in Orange Squeeze - or should I try working further with
    > the menus?


    I thought Orange Squeeze was up to date in this regard. Did you try to
    force restart it?

    > I know that is a lot of questions in one thread


    It is. In particular when the subject line only covers one of them ;-).
    But that's fine. I'm glad you didn't post in the generic "7.9 issues"
    thread.

    --

    Michael

  6. #6
    Hi Michael,

    I vote for this - it is nice to select multiple albums with various artists from the same genre on a given occassion, it could be some 'lounge-music' with various artists in a 'dinner setup with friends'...

    Regarding composer/artist-roles: So there is no way to filter composers away when one choose to have two different Artist lists - or...?

    When it comes to Orange Squeeze (normal as Preview): I have now restartet several tabs and phones AND deleted and reconfigured the 3 additional browse modes (Conductors, classical composers and audiobooks), and still they do not show in Orange Squeeze. Funny enough it shows my two new custom menus from Erlands Custom Browse (Bitdepths and Orchestra). @quandronado, I do see the additional menus in the web-interface!

    ... And I'm afraid I have another small issue for Michael here again: From time to time I do have 'artist (and composer) pictures' under the two new additionel browse menus - right now they are gone. I have Music and Information plugin updated... But maybe that's for another thread...

    Anyway: Thx, Michael :-), and thank You so much for still working on the LMS, trimming and developing... That can't be said enough!

  7. #7
    Hello Michael,
    Just to let You know - I still vote for getting 'Various Artists' back in 'Genres'

    Regards
    Ulrik

  8. #8
    Senior Member JJZolx's Avatar
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    I don't recall at the moment the exact reason that lead me to change, but I've retagged all of my VA compilations with an explicit ALBUMARTIST of "Various Artists". And I can, indeed, see this "Various Artists" listed under genres. I also add an ALBUMARTISTSORT field to these files with the value of "000" (three zeroes), which causes this artist to sort to the top of any artist list, and albums, when sorted by ARTIST/YEAR/ALBUM show the VA compilations at the beginning.

    Still, I don't see any reason why the pseudo-artist Various Artists shouldn't be included among a genre's artists.

  9. #9
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    wow... some things never change.

    when it comes to VA issues, LMS has them in spades. but otoh, the user can thankfully basically overcome them all right now, (afaik), by making sensible changes to their tags and in the LMS settings.

    imo, if a user does the following, they will have almost no issues or strange behavior, in either LMS or any other apps:

    1. keep all songs/files from a same album/CD in the same folder. (usually only an issue for some iTunes users or 'sloppy' downloaders)
    2. write an explicit "Album Artist" role in the tags of ALL files, (and yes, that means only use files/formats/tag types that support explicit Album Artist tags, and of course use other standard tag fields as well).
    3. change the VA naming default setting from nothing/blank in LMS settings, to something that won't be in your tags. the default string value is "Various Artists" but you should change it to something like "-Various Artists-" which will keep LMS from 'masking' files that have the default string in their tags. see here:

    http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9523
    http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17081

    4. optionally, if you want LMS / iTunes etc to explicitly know something is in fact a comp, (which isn't necessary, ergo optional), use compilation tags. you should only have COMP=1 tags (however the tagging format does it) and no other compilation tags, like =0 or whatnot. (the possible exception has something to do with when all files from one album aren't in one folder, which seems to only happen to iTunes/downloading users mostly)

    if a user does those things above, i am 99% sure it will solve just about all weird browsing issues. if it doesn't, its most likely some other kind of bug in LMS, meaning the fault isn't with the above rules, but rather a LMS bug of some other type.

    so the above is the current workaround. in the next post i will suggest real fixes.

    EDIT: in new builds, the setting in #3 is no longer nothing/blank by default. regardless, it still needs changed from the default of "Various Artists"

    EDIT2: i also turn off all "guessing" of values by LMS, meaning do NOT examine the filenames and folders for data values. (blank those boxes) use tags only.
    Last edited by BJW; 2016-05-18 at 07:40.
    Using: Win10 64 + LMS 8 & Duet & ipads w/the logitech app, and ipeng on an ipod
    http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.ph..._Artists_logic & http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Compilations

  10. #10
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    the real fix should be made in the code, meaning under the hood of LMS. the problem is that LMS evolved over a long period of time when tagging standards and so on were also evolving and being written. now that all the de facto standards are basically set in stone, its easier to fix.

    i think the following things would fix LMS under the hood:

    PHASE A:

    1. make LMS VA detection optional. meaning, in cases where tags aren't explicit, and/or missing, let the user decide if LMS should "detect" comp status or not.

    http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8324

    such a toggle would make LMS behave strictly on what it does, or does not, find in the tags/folders/filenames. while the default should be "on" i would turn it off and i think it would have performance benefits as well as perceptional benefits, meaning there would be no "fog" as to users guessing why something might be happening. a user would know that whatever LMS is showing them, its based strictly on what it found, and nothing more; as opposed to additional logic, or what LMS is interpreting something to mean.

    it would be interesting to get this part done first as a standalone piece, and just play with it for a while to see how it shakes out, before attempting the next phase. it looks like there is already a patch submitted by Erland, although by now it may require some tweaking?

    PHASE B:

    these steps are about disentangling comp status from list creation, and also about properly separating comp status (under the hood), from how comps are denoted (displayed).

    2. there should be no "special category" for Comps / VA, at all, IN given lists. artist lists, be they artists, album artists, composers, some combo of, or whatever they may be, should be based on their respective tags (and/or folders/filenames) alone, meaning comp status or comp tags would have nothing to do with making such lists. if something is or isn't a comp, it shouldn't matter when making those lists.

    (don't get confused: if VA detection was on and it assigned an Album Artist value in LMS, that string WOULD be used in list creation, but it would be used simply as a string, like any other tags string. the salient point is that the string itself would not mean anything, just as comp status wouldn't mean anything)

    there is one exception:

    3. you would have an actual list of only compilations, meaning those things LMS has detected as comps, be it via its own guessing logic or explicit tags. this list could be "hardlinked" from within other lists, if so desired. (and that hardlink should be user nameable via an option)

    it would also be allowed to be referenced when making custom browse modes, such as:

    Compilations
    Compilations > Artists
    Years > Compilations > Artists

    or whatever you can think of.

    4. there should be a strict delineation between what word[s] LMS uses to mean Compilations under the hood, and how compilations are denoted/displayed in LMS.

    right now, LMS conflates one setting to mean both things, with "Various Artists" as the default string. that causes problems right out of the box (such as bug 9523 among others). in addition, it also uses the word "Compilations" to mean the same thing as a browse mode.

    that's all kind of ridiculous, in that its confusing and conflated. i would suggest that under the hood, LMS use a very unlikely to appear in one's tags string to classify something as a comp to LMS. something like "VariCompLMS7"

    i would then suggest that there be an option to let the user use whatever string they want to denote such things in the display / UI, with "Various Artists" being the default. because to LMS those things are really "VariCompLMS7" under the hood, there should no longer be the "masking" issue as described in bug 9523.

    this is further discussed in bug 15604 which imo was improperly closed:

    http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15604

    i think there should also be discussion about why, or if, there should be two terms used by default in LMS, namely "Compilations" and "Various Artists" but that's the kind of thing that really could be addressed later.

    ALSO:

    another thing that shouldn't get lost in the shuffle here, is that there are lots of performance gains to be had in creating lists and browsing and so on if comp status is no longer queried when making such lists, as it wouldn't be most of the time. the only time it would be, is in only those specific browsing cases where comp status is specifically called upon. so for typical browsing cases, like:

    Artist > Year > Album
    or
    Genre > Artist

    etc, you would have no concern if something was or wasn't a comp, and that should improve performance. (or so i think)

    i think LMS has come a long way from say 10 years ago, when TPE2 couldn't even be recognized as meaning Album Artist, but i think the changes have been done without addressing the root causes underneath, more as workarounds rather than properly solving the issue. if LMS is still being developed, I'd love to see the above addressed.
    Last edited by BJW; 2015-10-14 at 23:06.
    Using: Win10 64 + LMS 8 & Duet & ipads w/the logitech app, and ipeng on an ipod
    http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.ph..._Artists_logic & http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Compilations

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