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  1. #31
    Senior Member ralphpnj's Avatar
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    Funny no one has mentioned the 5000 pound elephant in the room, namely since there are so few (what a couple of hundred at best) native surround sound recordings (sure there are lots of surround sound concert recordings but these always leave me confused since the sound field remains fixed but the damn camera angles keep changing so there is no continuity between the video image and the sound field, e.g. singer in center channel but off to one side on the video) most of the recordings are simply stereo recordings digitally processed for a surround sound effect. Kind of like the old mono recording processed for stereo.

    That and the complete lack of playback and recording standards for surround sound, whether audio only or video, and the whole thing is a mess. Plus how does one do surround sound on a smart phone or tablet, which are fast becoming the main ways that most people listen to music or watch video.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphpnj View Post
    Funny no one has mentioned the 5000 pound elephant in the room, namely since there are so few (what a couple of hundred at best) native surround sound recordings (sure there are lots of surround sound concert recordings but these always leave me confused since the sound field remains fixed but the damn camera angles keep changing so there is no continuity between the video image and the sound field, e.g. singer in center channel but off to one side on the video) most of the recordings are simply stereo recordings digitally processed for a surround sound effect. Kind of like the old mono recording processed for stereo.

    That and the complete lack of playback and recording standards for surround sound, whether audio only or video, and the whole thing is a mess. Plus how does one do surround sound on a smart phone or tablet, which are fast becoming the main ways that most people listen to music or watch video.
    Maybe no one is mentioning it because it is simply incorrect. There are hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of music SACDs, DVD-As, music & video blu-rays & DVDs, etc that have discrete 5 channel, 4 channel & 3 channel mixes from multitrack recordings (stereo "recordings" per se have been largely extinct for over 50 years). In fact, only a very small number are stereo processed for multichannel (like the old reprocessed mono for stereo). That one doesn't like them or finds them disconcerting is no different that what can be said for a great number of stereo mixes - like, for example those that have drums spread across the entire soundfield so it sounds like the drummer has 10 foot arms.

    As for standards, what are the standards for stereo? The lack of standards for dynamic range compression alone render any discussion of stereo standards moot, IMO. Yes, much like you can't do stereo on anything with one speaker, you can't do multi-channel (or rather, it's pretty pointless to do so) on a smart phone or tablet - or anything with just two speakers.

    But you can certainly control a home surround system from a phone or tablet with no less difficulty than a home stereo system.

  3. #33
    Senior Member ralphpnj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcb View Post
    Maybe no one is mentioning it because it is simply incorrect. There are hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of music SACDs, DVD-As, music & video blu-rays & DVDs, etc that have discrete 5 channel, 4 channel & 3 channel mixes from multitrack recordings (stereo "recordings" per se have been largely extinct for over 50 years). In fact, only a very small number are stereo processed for multichannel (like the old reprocessed mono for stereo). That one doesn't like them or finds them disconcerting is no different that what can be said for a great number of stereo mixes - like, for example those that have drums spread across the entire soundfield so it sounds like the drummer has 10 foot arms.

    As for standards, what are the standards for stereo? The lack of standards for dynamic range compression alone render any discussion of stereo standards moot, IMO. Yes, much like you can't do stereo on anything with one speaker, you can't do multi-channel (or rather, it's pretty pointless to do so) on a smart phone or tablet - or anything with just two speakers.

    But you can certainly control a home surround system from a phone or tablet with no less difficulty than a home stereo system.
    Yep you basically proved my assertion that there are very few recordings native surround sound recordings other than live concert recordings. Taking a multi-track stereo recording and remixing it for surround sound is not the same thing as a native surround sound recording.

    However I do completely agree with your last two paragraphs.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphpnj View Post
    Yep you basically proved my assertion that there are very few recordings native surround sound recordings other than live concert recordings. Taking a multi-track stereo recording and remixing it for surround sound is not the same thing as a native surround sound recording.

    However I do completely agree with your last two paragraphs.
    No offense but you’re proving the old adage that a little knowledge can be dangerous. 99.9% of true stereo mixes (and even a great many mono mixes) are also not native and are exactly as you describe for multichannel mixes. They originate from multi-track recordings ranging from 2 tracks to a nearly infinite # of tracks these days - and then they are mixed down to mono, stereo, quad, 4.1, 5.1, 7.1, etc. This includes the vast, vast, vast majority of recordings made since the late 50s - including classical and live concert pop/jazz.

    Very few multichannel mixes are fake multichannel from stereo or mono sources. Period. Even the RCA Living Stereo, Mercury Living Presence, Nat King Cole, etc 3.0 multichannel SACD’s are simply derived straight from the original 3 track recordings (which were the sources for the original stereo and mono mixes as well).

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but your opinion seems to be rooted in non-fact.
    Last edited by marcb; 2020-03-04 at 07:41.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcb View Post
    No offense but you’re proving the old adage that a little knowledge can be dangerous. 99.9% of true stereo mixes (and even a great many mono mixes) are also not native and are exactly as you describe for multichannel mixes. They originate from multi-track recordings ranging from 2 tracks to a nearly infinite # of tracks these days - and then they are mixed down to mono, stereo, quad, 4.1, 5.1, 7.1, etc. This includes the vast, vast, vast majority of recordings made since the late 50s - including classical and live concert pop/jazz.

    Very few multichannel mixes are fake multichannel from stereo or mono sources. Period. Even the RCA Living Stereo, Mercury Living Presence, Nat King Cole, etc 3.0 multichannel SACD’s are simply derived straight from the original 3 track recordings (which were the sources for the original stereo and mono mixes as well).

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but your opinion seems to be rooted in non-fact.
    Has it taken give years to think of a reply

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  6. #36
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    maybe it took marcb 5 yrs to reply but he is right. I am also using mch 5.1 dsf tracks from my synology and would also love to use them via LMS. Not found a way yet

  7. #37
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    Hmm... With a lot of time at home, I was revisiting my surround library and even looking to see if anything new was available to make this work. It seems like it would be nice for LMS to support multichannel FLAC for devices that might have an HDMI connection for instance. Historically, I always went through an effort to convert the files to some DTS format for SPDIF, but in a few cases, the audio was definitely compressed sounding vs the original source (i.e. DVD-A, BR, etc). I feel hokey having to work my surround through a different system if I want to stream it. Actually, it isn't that big of a deal as I can make an mkv file for use in Plex, but then I'm using my TV to listen to music.

    Oh well. I have some time now, I might explore what is possible through a Raspberry Pi outside of LMS (at least for the surround files).

    By the way, there are definitely some albums out there that when listened in surround are awesome. Many aren't, but that's ok.

  8. #38
    Senior Member mftech's Avatar
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    Multi-Channel Playback

    It will be nice if LMS and Squeezelite could support the Ravenna Protocol. HR + Multichannel at once !
    https://www.ravenna-network.com/
    Tête à FLAC

    2 X SB Classic
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    All devives connected via CeolBOX server aka The Musical Box
    Using OrangeSqueeze and Material Skin Plug-in to remote all my connected devices.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mftech View Post
    It will be nice if LMS and Squeezelite could support the Ravenna Protocol. HR + Multichannel at once !
    https://www.ravenna-network.com/
    More background at the old thread on this went quiet after your post in 2019
    https://forums.slimdevices.com/showt...rotocol-driver
    Paul Webster
    http://dabdig.blogspot.com
    Author of "Now Playing" plugins covering Radio France (FIP etc), KCRW, Supla Finland, ABC Australia, CBC/Radio-Canada and RTE Ireland

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