ALAC and FLAC

[MartinP]

I've been agonizing over the choice between ALAC and FLAC. I'm using a Mac, and at the moment using iTunes to organize AIFF files, prior to encoding. I want to use lossless to maintain the quality, and I've been reading the many, many debates over the fact that iTunes won't recognize or play FLAC, but ALAC isn't decoded (server-side) on the Squeezebox or played gaplessly. Plus there's not much Mac software to encode FLAC or rip directly into FLAC. (I think I have all that straight?)

But now I've noticed that Slimserver can convert ALAC files to FLAC before streaming them. Doesn't this mean I can store my music files as ALAC, use iTunes to organize them and edit tags (and even play them), but stream them as FLAC and so reduce bandwidth demands and play them gaplessly? In other words, the best of both worlds?

I must be missing something???

[fairyliquidizer]

That's almost all right except that FLAC and ALAC have similar bandwidth demands. ALAC just needs Slimserver to do a little work and transcode it, FLAC is native and supports seaking on the player too (not a huge benefit for music but a benefit all the same).

Fairy

[MartinP]

But ALAC would never go over the network, right? I know ALAC and FLAC files will be about the same size, but ALAC has to be de/recoded by the server, no? It just seems better to recode and stream them as FLAC rather than AIFF (or raw digital).

[street_samurai]

Bear in mind that both formats a lossless so converting between them does not have an impact on sound quality. Your only concern should be whether you have the processing power on the server to do the conversion on-the-fly... if this is not a concern then it sounds like you'd be better-off with an ALAC solution.

If processing is an issue then perhaps FLAC is your answer... you can always to a batch convert back to ALAC if FLAC isn't meeting your needs.

ss.

[fairyliquidizer]

Bear in mind that both formats a lossless so converting between them does not have an impact on sound quality. Your only concern should be whether you have the processing power on the server to do the conversion on-the-fly... if this is not a concern then it sounds like you'd be better-off with an ALAC solution.

If processing is an issue then perhaps FLAC is your answer... you can always to a batch convert back to ALAC if FLAC isn't meeting your needs.

ss.

Agreed I went for FLAC on my PC after a similar debate although it's just because I like the concept of playing a native format. Sad geek that I am!

[MartinP]

I have a geeky side too: I've been studying how to write and compile scripts to bulk encode the AIFF files to FLAC. Fun! But I also have a life too, and other responsibilities.

I'll do some testing before making a final decision. I'm morally opposed to a proprietory format like ALAC, but the upside of continuing to use iTunes to maintain the files is too tempting!

[jonheal]

One Downside

There's no fast-forwarding or rewinding on the squeezeboxen with Apple Lossless.

[srx04]

I have a geeky side too: I've been studying how to write and compile scripts to bulk encode the AIFF files to FLAC. Fun! But I also have a life too, and other responsibilities.

I'll do some testing before making a final decision. I'm morally opposed to a proprietory format like ALAC, but the upside of continuing to use iTunes to maintain the files is too tempting!

itunes and ipod's are popular for many reasons, but for me the biggest draw is its seemless integration....a one stop shop..burn,listen,organize,research etc.

I had a few mp3 portable players before ipod/itunes and the software was HORRID!!

[mikerob]

A problem with FLAC on OSX is there isn't much choice of applications to encode, tag and manage FLAC files.

Max (http://sbooth.org/Max/) is a recently introduced application to encode files but IMO it is still a bit immature.

Media Rage (www.chaoticsoftware.com) is the only application I am aware for tagging FLAC files but it is a bit a dogs dinner collection of various tools and I find it confusing to use.

I'm not aware of any applications for managing an entire collection.

I don't think any of the FLAC-aware OSX applications I've seen come close to iTunes for functionality and usability so I went down the ALAC route.

[fairyliquidizer]

I think ALAC is a good choice on a Mac for the reasons others have outlined (above). I almost went ALAC myself to save me having to use multiple tools (I am an iTunes on PC fan. Which is a bad thing as their is no iTunes-LAME plugin for PC so my iPod collection is AAC which sounds great but isn't very portable).

The good thing about lossless is that you can also convert between formats if you need to later on.

Fairy

PS- If you really want to go FLAC then http://www.roxio.com/en/products/toa...improved.jhtml you could buy Roxio Toast 7 Titanium.

[MartinP]

I'm a bit embarrased to admit that the machine I'm using as server is running OS 10.2.8, so that rules out Toast 7, xAct (except its earlier, buggier versions) and Max. I've tried MacFlac and Flacer, but they seem not to handle a directory structure of files. Yes, there's not much out there to create or manage FLACs on the Mac. For the first time in over a decade I've found myself wishing I had a PC, at least to rip and encode.

[fairyliquidizer]

To be honest I'm starting to wish I had chosen iTunes for ripping my CD collection. I'm finding other programs more tiresome.

I don't think ALAC is a bad choice at all.

[ideasculptor]

I just went through this after ripping my entire library to ALAC. I strongly counsel against doing the same thing. Fundamentally, ALAC may be lossless, but there are no solid tools for transcoding to other formats. Actually, thats not entirely true, as I did a bunch of work with the author of Max to make it pretty darned useful for transcoding of large libraries, but it took a lot of work. Prior to last week, there was no way to transcode a 500GB library unless you had at least 1000GB of disk space. I added or got Stephen to add features which will delete the source file, leave the transcoded file in the same directory, change the way it queues up tracks needing to be transcoded, and ignore filles whch have already been transcoded (although my hack for that hasn't been integrated, yet, I think). So now, if you have a library in apple lossless, it is at least possible to get out of it. Prior to the changes to Max, that just wasn't possible, at least not without a ton of manual intervention. Incidentally, I did transcode a 500GB lossless library with no trouble whatsoever. All stability issues seem to be worked out (other than a memory leak which requires the occasional restart, but is otherwise harmless).

The reason I abandoned ALAC were two-fold. First, I bought an Infrant ReadyNAS for storing my library. Then I realized that slimserver's support for ALAC is dependent upon the existence of a quicktimne library for decoding at the server, and there was no such thing for the Infrant hardware. In order to use the slimserver that is built into my readynas, I would have to use FLAC. So I looked into transcoding my library, and that's when I got scared. AT the time, there was NOTHING available to do the job. I wrote a python script which could parse the iTunes xml file, grab the audio file, decode to wav via ffmpeg, encode to flac with the flac library, and apply the tags parsed out of the xml file, but the same day I finished my script, I discovered Max. Max was super buggy, especially for transcoding (his focus had been ripping up until that point), but I decided I liked the control that a GUI app would provide over the process. SO I bought a book on Cocoa programming (I am a programmer, but know nothing of Mac programming) and started hacking in fixes to the things I needed in order to transcode my library. In most cases, once I mentioned my needs to the original author by sending him my new code, he would re-implement the fix in a much better integrated way, although the final version I wound up using still had a couple of custom hacks in it.

Regardless, the thought that I had 500GB of music that I couldn't get into a format that was more widely supported scared me enough to get me to jump through hoops in order to get out of that bind. Of course, doing so relieved the bind, since it is now relatively painless to transcode ALAC, so you may choose to stay over there. Personally, I'll be using MAX to rip CD's in the future, and Max will happily encode to multiple formats simultaneously, so it outputs FLAC and AAC for my ipod. EVentually, Max will even have a feature which will automatically add AAC rips to the iTunes music library, so you don't have to do so manually. Ripping should be every bit as painless as iTunes, with the added benefit that libraries containing both lossless and AAC versions of the same tracks don't play every track twice when playing an album 'in order,' since only the lossless file is in the iTuns library.

Incidentally, One of the more useful features I added to Max was the ability to include the file type as a path element in the output path, so you can either have two separate libraries, one under a 'flac' subdirectory and another one under 'm4a' or you can have a flac and an m4a directory under the artist and album directories. Both are much more pleasing than having them all in one directory, which is what Max used to do. This is particularly annoying because AAC and ALAC use the same damn extension with no way to tell them apart other than metadata or file length, so iTunes would always create 01 - track name.m4a for lossless and then 01 - track name-1.m4a for AAC, in the same directory. With no control to change that. Fundamentally, having an open source ripping and transcoding tool is really useful, since you can always make it do what you want it to do. iTunes will almost certainly never be an open source ripping/transcoding tool, which is reason enough to stay away from it, if you ask me. It has always had obnoxious little deficiences that have bugged me. Max allowed me to fix them.

--sam

[ideasculptor]

I'm a bit embarrased to admit that the machine I'm using as server is running OS 10.2.8, so that rules out Toast 7, xAct (except its earlier, buggier versions) and Max. I've tried MacFlac and Flacer, but they seem not to handle a directory structure of files. Yes, there's not much out there to create or manage FLACs on the Mac. For the first time in over a decade I've found myself wishing I had a PC, at least to rip and encode.

Hang on and watch Max mature. I had the same feelings, but I have enough programming chops to be able to get into the Max source code and modify it, which caused the original author to make some nice changes to the app. If you haven't picked up the latest copy, you should do so. It is MUCH nicer and more stable than the one that was available even 2 weeks ago. EVentually, Max will also get EAC style paranoia settings for ripping.

Most importantly, however, if there are issues/bugs, or just features you want to see, add them to the bug reporting database at sbooth.org. EIther Stephen or I will be working on any good ideas that we see there, and the sooner we hear about them, the sooner they can be rolled in to the product.

The bug database is here: http://sbooth.org/mantis/main_page.php

--sam

[street_samurai]

I just went through this after ripping my entire library to ALAC. I strongly counsel against doing the same thing. Fundamentally, ALAC may be lossless, but there are no solid tools for transcoding to other formats. Actually, thats not entirely true, as I did a bunch of work with the author of Max to make it pretty darned useful for transcoding of large libraries, but it took a lot of work. Prior to last week, there was no way to transcode a 500GB library unless you had at least 1000GB of disk space. I added or got Stephen to add features which will delete the source file, leave the transcoded file in the same directory, change the way it queues up tracks needing to be transcoded, and ignore filles whch have already been transcoded (although my hack for that hasn't been integrated, yet, I think). So now, if you have a library in apple lossless, it is at least possible to get out of it. Prior to the changes to Max, that just wasn't possible, at least not without a ton of manual intervention. Incidentally, I did transcode a 500GB lossless library with no trouble whatsoever. All stability issues seem to be worked out (other than a memory leak which requires the occasional restart, but is otherwise harmless).

Very interesting points.

In terms of transcoding, I'm a windows guy (although I like the mac too) so I'll point out that its reasonably easy to transcode ALAC to FLAC in windows (using dbpoweramp)... which a mac person could use in a pinch if you put all your music on an external hard disc and borrowed a friends computer for a few hours.

ss.