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B&W 802D Speakers. Tempted.

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    #31
    Originally posted by darrenyeats View Post
    Personally I'm in the camp that likes to listen at louder or more "realistic" volume levels.

    However, the maximum loudness of a system can work against its performance at low listening levels.

    You are limited by the dynamic range of all the equipment in the chain, and even the best equipment has a finite range. For example, I believe this factor more often that not benefits valve amps in level-matched comparisons against SS amps.
    Darren
    Are you saying that tube amps have less dynamic range than Solid State??? I think I have to be misinterpreting something, would you elaborate...

    I have listened to very realistic volume levels with 30w tube amps and my monitors, the only reason you would need 500w to get decent levels lies in the inefficiency of the speakers used.
    Last edited by GuyDebord; 2008-02-03, 16:51.
    LAST.FM Speaker System Headphone System

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      #32
      Before anyone jumps on the thought, I'm not saying valve-based systems can't go loud. They can with the right loudspeakers.

      But valve power amps tend to be less powerful than SS ones. When you do a level-matched comparison of SS vs valve power, more likely than not the SS amp will be more powerful. But the SPL chosen to level-match on has to be one which is comfortable for the valve amp to be a fair fight.

      More power = lower preamp (or digi volume) setting to produce the same SPL. A lower setting means a reduced SNR, thus benefiting the valve amp. That's what I meant.
      Darren
      Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

      SB Touch

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        #33
        Originally posted by GuyDebord View Post
        the only reason you would need 500w to get decent levels lies in the inefficiency of the speakers used.
        Fair enough, but I'm talking about comparisons between amps and you keep the same speakers for such comparisons.
        Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

        SB Touch

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          #34
          Originally posted by GuyDebord View Post
          Are you saying that tube amps have less dynamic range than Solid State??? I think I have to be misinterpreting something, would you elaborate...
          I'm confused. By dynamic range of an amp I assume you just mean maximum power before clipping (maybe divided by noise floor), and almost all solid state amps are capable of supplying more power than almost all tube amps (and with lower noise).

          So yes, tube amps in general have considerably less dynamic range than SS. Is that controversial?

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by opaqueice View Post
            I'm confused. By dynamic range of an amp I assume you just mean maximum power before clipping (maybe divided by noise floor), and almost all solid state amps are capable of supplying more power than almost all tube amps (and with lower noise).

            So yes, tube amps in general have considerably less dynamic range than SS. Is that controversial?
            By dynamic range I meant the DIFFERENCE between the highest signal the amplifier can output to the amplifiers output noise. And this difference (ratio) is usually given in db's and certainly not in other power units as your comment: "maximum power before clipping" might suggest . DR is more dependent on power regulation circuits whose output DR might read as compressed and yes, tube amps in SOME cases have simpler pr circuits.

            There is nothing controversial about that declaration, what is problematic is that it seems to take this ratio as the only thing important to achieve realistic audio levels. DR alone doesnt say much and using DR to disqualify tubes is very very simplistic. Besides its an old argument that doesnt say much today.
            Last edited by GuyDebord; 2008-02-03, 19:10.
            LAST.FM Speaker System Headphone System

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              #36
              Originally posted by GuyDebord View Post
              By dynamic range I meant the DIFFERENCE between the highest signal the amplifier can output to the amplifiers output noise. And this difference (ratio)
              Difference and ratio are not the same thing. You mean ratio.

              is usually given in db's and certainly not in other power units as your comment: "maximum power before clipping" might suggest .
              Not at all. The maximum power divided by the power in the noise floor doesn't have units, and is conventionally expressed in dB.

              DR is more dependent on power regulation circuits whose output DR might read as compressed and yes, tube amps in SOME cases have simpler pr circuits.

              There is nothing controversial about that declaration, what is problematic is that it seems to take this ratio as the only thing important to achieve realistic audio levels. DR alone doesnt say much and using DR to disqualify tubes is very very simplistic. Besides its an old argument that doesnt say much today.
              Fine - you agree that tube amps almost always have lower DR, right? I wasn't drawing any conclusions from that; I was just confused by your earlier comment.

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                #37
                speakers as girlfriends...

                Originally posted by wyrob1 View Post
                My SB3 setup is giving me plenty of enjoyment, but time for a speaker upgrade.
                My current Monitor Audio S10s are OK but cannot keep up with my new amps (Murano Audio IcePower based P-500S [email protected]), show full benefit of the DAC1 clarity, nor fill our large listening space.

                Some internet review research led me to the B&W 802Ds and a listening test at a local store blew me away. But at >$10,000 this is a big step.

                Wondering if anyone had experience with these speakers and/or any other loudspeakers that could offer similar quality / range to the 802Ds

                Many thanks

                SB3 -> Benchmark DAC 1 -> Murano Audio p-500S -> Monitor Audio S10
                so many flavors and arguments!
                I remembered John Bowers as a little gentleman w, huge ears standing next to the odd looking original 801, this was in 1980, when every other speakers were rectangular boxes. He talked about edge diffractions, cone breakup, cabinet vibrations AND laser interferometry, strange stuffs indeed, a good 15 years ahead of industry. I couldn't afford the 801, no sir, but the $250/pr DM110 sounded better than my ESS AMT ($1200) squackboxes. Then came the 802FS as my next system for 17yrs (drove from Oregon to Vancouver BC and back for a demo unit that i could afford), and the N802 since 2002 (another trip to Bellevue and back to save some pesos). To sum it up, i appreciate the improvement in quality more than someone who just jump into a B&W from another brand, because for very little money, the bottom rungs B&Ws already give you excellent sounds. I still have all of them but due to its size i gave the 802FS to my daughter because she has a huge listening room.
                SB3>MF A3.24>2NAK PA7>N802>NICE!
                SB3->Benchmark DAC1HDR->Pass X250->12g Romex->B&W N802

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by wyrob1 View Post
                  My SB3 setup is giving me plenty of enjoyment, but time for a speaker upgrade.
                  My current Monitor Audio S10s are OK but cannot keep up with my new amps (Murano Audio IcePower based P-500S [email protected]Ω), show full benefit of the DAC1 clarity, nor fill our large listening space.

                  Some internet review research led me to the B&W 802Ds and a listening test at a local store blew me away. But at >$10,000 this is a big step.

                  Wondering if anyone had experience with these speakers and/or any other loudspeakers that could offer similar quality / range to the 802Ds

                  Many thanks

                  SB3 -> Benchmark DAC 1 -> Murano Audio p-500S -> Monitor Audio S10
                  So, you made any decisions on where you're going?
                  It would be interesting to hear where you're landing....

                  Regards

                  Harald N
                  Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop / SC7 -> SB3 -> Benchmark DAC1 -> Krell KAV400xi -> Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15
                  Everything is difficult before it's easy

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by haraldo View Post
                    I reckon it's difficult to discuss such speakers without bringing the power amplifiers into the loop. Does anybody know which amps the famous UK studios are using?
                    I have read that some studios are using very expensive Chord Poweramps, while I have also heard about Electrocompaniet Nemo.

                    The reasoning behind this, from me, is that I reckon it's not possible to get the full benefit of the larger B&W without "powerhouse" amplifiers.

                    When I auditioned the 802D they were driven by quite expensive / large Classe poweramps, and they were just not able to make the speakers come alive.

                    If you're auditioning speakers, perhaps you should also bring your own amplifier, if possible. It's a significant factor in the equation....

                    I bought speakers 15 years ago realizing afterwards that I didn't have the amplifiers to run them properly, that's not much fun.....

                    Some reviewers actually use Large Krell amps (like FPB-600cx) when reviewing $1500 B&W speakers. No one would use such a setup in the real world

                    An example: the Quattro Wood, will obviously be much easier on the amps because it's got a powered subwoofer and a passive high-pass filter in the signal path before the power amplifier. This makes a significant difference.

                    Regards

                    -H
                    Couldn't have said it better myself. Some time ago I bought my Reference 9's and promptly learned a good deal about how good amplifiers compare favorably with welders.

                    I've heard fine examples of B & W's and sadly I've had friends that were unduly proud. The amp was the issue.

                    I would highlight earlier references to Dynaudio. As amp requirements go, they are a handful but with adequate amps (not watts,) they are stunningly broad and accurate.

                    P

                    With the discussion of DR, no one has mentioned the champion measures of SS: headroom and linearity.
                    Last edited by ; 2008-02-22, 02:33.

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                      #40
                      If you truly want to discuss a monitor that is used in many mixing and mastering studios then you need to discuss the Lipinski montiors. Take a look at this client list...



                      Last edited by rydenfan; 2008-02-22, 15:44.

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by rydenfan View Post
                        If you truly want to discuss a monitor that is used in many mixing and mastering studios then you need to discuss the Lipinski montiors. Take a look at this client list...



                        http://www.lipinskisound.com/wstl.aspx
                        Rydenfan, this looks like fantastic speakers!!

                        If you ever heard genuine phase coherent speakers in a proper setup, you'll never forget about it.... This actually looks like the real stuff.
                        I believe that I would much rather but something like this with fast subwoofers than B&W 802D (which in my opinion is slow), and you may even have some money left for a gift to your wife :-))

                        Or you could check out these guys:

                        Made by people who worked with famous John Dunlavy, based on the same ideas......

                        Cheers

                        Harald N
                        Last edited by haraldo; 2008-02-26, 00:37.
                        Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop / SC7 -> SB3 -> Benchmark DAC1 -> Krell KAV400xi -> Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15
                        Everything is difficult before it's easy

                        Comment


                          #42
                          They are most certainly the real deal! With the big L-707 you have the ability to order them with a 600 watt monoblock built into the stand! I have heard a 5 channel system of them and it remains one of the most moving musical experiences of my life. I still believe I should have ordered the littler L-505 instead of my current speakers, but such is life. You should really hear them if you get a chance.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by rydenfan View Post
                            I still believe I should have ordered the littler L-505 instead of my current speakers, but such is life. You should really hear them if you get a chance.
                            I wouldn't be surprised if the smaller L-505 would be even better than the larger ones for two reasons:
                            - Vifa and Scan-speak ring-radiator are incredibly fast and if they are paired with midranges that's not likewise very fast you may have issues in the crossover region, this means those tweeters often work better with smaller drivers
                            - I believe smaller drivers are generally better and faster and provides more detail, but then you may have to match with very competent and likewise fast stereo subwoofers.... (Or have many more of those small drivers)

                            Originally posted by MrJB
                            Presently using SB3/DAC1/Arcam/Dynaudio speakers. Dynaudios are very natural sounding. Listen to some Dyn's, the bigger the better, you might be surprised. Have fun.
                            What speakers do you have?

                            I have never heard a Dynaudio speaker that's not well sounding, like the Contour S3.4, incredibly fine sounding speakers, almost bought a pair of those....

                            Regards

                            Harald N
                            Last edited by haraldo; 2008-02-27, 00:00.
                            Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop / SC7 -> SB3 -> Benchmark DAC1 -> Krell KAV400xi -> Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15
                            Everything is difficult before it's easy

                            Comment


                              #44
                              I met a guy called Dieter Ennemoser when I was covering the Vienna hifi show in 1999. An Austrian violin-maker by trade, he had produced a philosophy and associated laquer (C37) which he was using to treat existing components, and to create his own.

                              Anyway he dragged me off to listen to his HUGE Archaeopteryx speakers, which at the time were selling for about 20,000 quid. They has and 18" C37 laquered bass unit that crossed over to the tweeter at 3k.

                              Contrary to expectation, these speakers were the best thing I heard in the whole show. By no means what you would call a conventional presentation - but boy did they make fun music.

                              My point being that big drivers can also work.

                              Then again I have no idea how the speakers would stand up to extended listening. He still makes them though!

                              there is a lofty lonely lohengrinic castle

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                                #45
                                Originally posted by bigfool1956 View Post
                                Contrary to expectation, these speakers were the best thing I heard in the whole show. By no means what you would call a conventional presentation - but boy did they make fun music.

                                My point being that big drivers can also work.
                                Thanks!!!! - You really got me there :-)) Guess there are NO rules without exceptions
                                Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop / SC7 -> SB3 -> Benchmark DAC1 -> Krell KAV400xi -> Meadowlark Kestrel2 / Duntech PCL-15
                                Everything is difficult before it's easy

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