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  • sgmlaw
    replied
    Originally posted by Redrum View Post
    I love this forum for how an initial query morphs into a related but completely different, very interesting discussion. Especially when allot of us have lived through the history. I have really enjoyed reading the various perspectives on the technology. I appreciate the time that all of you have taken for your very detailed (and long) reflections.

    In reading, I am realizing that much of my disappointment of the highly anticipated "perfect" CD format was due to a greedy effort to rush older music onto the format to generate more sales. I used the example of Clapton's 461 Ocean Blvd. Probably still one of my favorites of his. I had it on Vinyl when I bought it on CD. I was so disappointed. I think I now have a "remastered" CD which sounds a bit better. But now that I am thinking about it, I think I still have the vinyl copy, I'll have to look for it and pull it out.

    Jim
    I think it was more than that, as hinted in some of the earlier posts.

    Some of the earliest Redbook releases were not so good. But many in retrospect actually are quite listenable and stand the test of time. Most of it, as has already been pointed out, depended on the quality and skill of the master engineering. Some of what was going on was also related to the evolution of mastering technologies occurring throughout the 1970s. And some of the early master recordings from the 1950s and into the early 1960s, produced through tubed consoles and on tape, are still the foundations for some of the best sounding media in my collection.

    My earlier point was more technical in nature, in that the CD format at its introduction, and early home consumer digital playback systems of that era, being newly introduced technologies, were still plagued with some technical issues and flaws that were eventually overcome in the following years. “Teething pains” so to speak. And that the early marketing hype to push that infant technology and format exceeded what then, in it’s early iteration, was capable of. Some of the hype was frankly over the top, especially looking back and seeing where improvements and advancement have occurred. And not just in the digital realm. The earliest digital players were so focused and heavily cost loaded into the new digital sections, that they did not necessarily invest heavily in the analog stages that are just as essential to truly high quality audio playback. There was not a wide range of models beginning on day one. That came a few years later, and really accelerated once manufacturers started differentiating model tiers to price points (e.g., Sony’s early ES line). Then once it trickled down into the smaller market of “higher end” makers, many things started to come into better focus, literally in some respects. But that was not the case in 1979.

    And I was using that earlier experience comparative to the over the top hype initially surrounding MQA in recent years.

    The two most important determinants of an audio system’s ability and function are its media and its loudspeakers. I still stand by my earlier point that it is the quality of the original recording that matters most to the final media result, regardless of format. And no amount of higher order digital processing to 96, 192 or even higher sampling rates, is going to recover a fundamentally flawed original recording. And that many selections being sold today as ‘high res’ (and at high res prices) are based on poor original masters, and sound no better, and perhaps in some cases worse, than an earlier format of that recording (haze and lack of resolution can be a good thing there).

    That same rush to repackage old music in new forms has been going on since the dawn of recorded audio. I saw it with some vinyl, I saw it with the earliest CDs, and I continue to see it today even with 192khz + offerings. The producers can get slipshod in their rush to get reissues to market. Imagine putting an old, worn acetate master on a high resolution format and then actually offering it for sale as “high resolution”. I’ve even seen a few instances of that, and complained long and loud to get a refund when it was discovered.

    And unfortunately, sometimes those sloppy early efforts can remain on the market for quite a while before they finally get remastered and reproduced in more compatible quality for the format. We are still seeing that in the 192+ media era. With the decline of media ownership, I do have concerns that the pace of remastering of the older catalogs is not going to be as swift as in eras past. And while the newest artists and recordings can be made, processed and mastered under the current SOTA, avoiding those concerns altogether, those music genres are not necessarily my cup of tea. And an old, more obscure Jim Reeves or Chet Atkins selection from 1960 may do no better in digital than a haphazard early 1990s reissue attempt for a very long time. Perhaps never, and that’s what we’re stuck with. And that is what we will play through our $500 and $50,000 audio systems, for better or for worse. Which is why if I encounter great condition RCA vinyl pressings of those recordings, I snap them right up. Sometimes, they do sound much better.

    That is also why I placed the suggestion that a great Redbook pressing, helped along with a little upsampling to sidestep inherent filter issues, can still stand very tall in today’s high resolution forest. Whether that CD version was pressed in 1979 or 2019 may be immaterial to that quest.

    And not to get too hung up on having the latest and greatest digital format, and especially not too early on in that format’s life cycle. It is often competing against a fully mature and perfected earlier format that is still quite competitive. That advice applies today, and it also applied in 1979.

    There is a lot of truth to the term “the bleeding edge”.
    Last edited by sgmlaw; 2023-02-07, 14:46.

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  • RobbH
    replied
    Originally posted by slartibartfast View Post

    Even though many complained about early CDs I wouldn't be surprised if they now prefer them to a lot of the compressed remasters we seem to be stuck with now via Tidal and Qobuz. Good luck trying to find a decent sounding version of many Genesis albums after the latest remix/master 🤣
    I recently saw someone waxing fondly nostalgic about the widely condemned, initial (1987) release of the Beatles' albums on CD, compared to the later remasterings and more recent remixes.

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  • mooblie
    replied
    I think many bands (often "prog rockers" of the '70s) pushed the analogue recording/mastering/distribution technology of the day to its limit - and beyond - and you can hear that in somewhat congested vinyl LPs of that era.

    In an attempt to rectify this - partially anyway - some respected engineers and producers have gone back the the original individual tracks of the recordings (pre-eq/compression/mixing, etc.,, if they still exist) to "have another go" with modern digital technology.

    SOME of those results are spectacular, both retaining the original performance AND having much higher technical quality.

    This is, of course, much more than just re-mastering of finished mixes that has gone so very wrong in the recent loudness wars.

    For example, seek out Steve Wilson's remixing of Yes albums, and of course, Giles Martin doing something similar to The Beatles.
    Last edited by mooblie; 2023-02-06, 16:30.

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  • slartibartfast
    replied
    Originally posted by Redrum View Post
    I love this forum for how an initial query morphs into a related but completely different, very interesting discussion. Especially when allot of us have lived through the history. I have really enjoyed reading the various perspectives on the technology. I appreciate the time that all of you have taken for your very detailed (and long) reflections.

    In reading, I am realizing that much of my disappointment of the highly anticipated "perfect" CD format was due to a greedy effort to rush older music onto the format to generate more sales. I used the example of Clapton's 461 Ocean Blvd. Probably still one of my favorites of his. I had it on Vinyl when I bought it on CD. I was so disappointed. I think I now have a "remastered" CD which sounds a bit better. But now that I am thinking about it, I think I still have the vinyl copy, I'll have to look for it and pull it out.

    Jim
    Even though many complained about early CDs I wouldn't be surprised if they now prefer them to a lot of the compressed remasters we seem to be stuck with now via Tidal and Qobuz. Good luck trying to find a decent sounding version of many Genesis albums after the latest remix/master 🤣

    Leave a comment:


  • Redrum
    replied
    I love this forum for how an initial query morphs into a related but completely different, very interesting discussion. Especially when allot of us have lived through the history. I have really enjoyed reading the various perspectives on the technology. I appreciate the time that all of you have taken for your very detailed (and long) reflections.

    In reading, I am realizing that much of my disappointment of the highly anticipated "perfect" CD format was due to a greedy effort to rush older music onto the format to generate more sales. I used the example of Clapton's 461 Ocean Blvd. Probably still one of my favorites of his. I had it on Vinyl when I bought it on CD. I was so disappointed. I think I now have a "remastered" CD which sounds a bit better. But now that I am thinking about it, I think I still have the vinyl copy, I'll have to look for it and pull it out.

    Jim

    Leave a comment:


  • d6jg
    replied
    Originally posted by Jeff07971 View Post
    Its actually a CM4 but take your point !

    Do like the Holo Audio gear, as an electronics engineer the layout and construction of their gear is electronics porn

    Jeff
    The software suite is the interesting bit for me.


    Leave a comment:


  • Jeff07971
    replied
    Its actually a CM4 but take your point !

    Do like the Holo Audio gear, as an electronics engineer the layout and construction of their gear is electronics porn

    Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • d6jg
    replied
    Wasn’t familiar with Holo Red. That’s one hell of a price tag for a Pi4 and a lump of aluminium. And you still need a separate DAC

    Leave a comment:


  • spacecase-25
    replied
    Many streamers will not support squeezebox, but will support upnp, roon, and their own apps primarily.

    currently i am using an intel nuc running a very spartan install of Debian with squeezelite as well as upmpdcli + mpd for UPNP streaming (my current preference). Other than that, personally, choose something like the Holo Red. It does support squeezebox as well as UPNP, roon, hqplayer, and many others. It also has the advantage of being Pi based, so you can run any Pi or linux distro on it and really customize the experience. Seems the most future proof to me while being built for sound quality.

    its basically a PiAES in a nicer package.

    i also give my vote to separate components. Every box in my system serves exactly one purpose.

    im also a huge fan of the UNIX philosophy, and that may just be a personality trait ha! Do one thing, do it well, dont complicate things more than they need to be.

    Leave a comment:


  • SamY
    replied
    Originally posted by P Nelson View Post
    I recall tasting differences between two bottles of wine that were the same vintage. Others thought they tasted the same and challenged me to prove it. I took an ABx test and passed. A person pointed out, I could have been lucky and guessed. I took the test again and passed.
    Your wine-tasting methodology is obviously more refined than mine. I would have finished the bottles on the first test. 😁

    Leave a comment:


  • P Nelson
    replied
    I claim to be no expert in audio recording or being a professional musician. Now that is out of the way, below is my perspective of the CD format.

    I brought a CD player in the mid-1980s and there was a local independent record store that sold mostly CDs so there was plenty of content for the new format. I don’t recall in general CDs sounding worse than the vinyl. I thought CDs sounded better as there were no more pops or hiss. Maybe I was young, and I did not know better. However, what I do remember is how much easier the CD format was to play music. No more having to clean an album. No more pop or hiss sounds. No more having to worry about accidently dropping the needle. The CD took up much less space, which made moving my music collection while in college much easier. Switching a CD on the player compared to an album was much quicker. Skipping tracks was a press of a button. For me, the CD was great compared to vinyl, and I have no interest in going back despite the current trend of new albums being offered by some musicians.

    I bought quite a few jazz CDs from the GRP label and they sounded good to me. Dave Grusin and Larry Rosen saw the opportunity to sell music on the CD format and they produced content that sounded good. There were a handful (not GRP) of CDs that sounded okay, but I noticed they came from analog masters and I assumed the recording lacked the detail to create a good CD. Now I realize it may have just been sloppy production from the music company to sell older music on the new format. Unfortunately, the loudness war reduce dynamic range.

    Perhaps my musical ear was not embedded into a vinyl transmitted through a tube amplifier sound, so that anything that sounded different was inferior. Something to consider.

    My friend introduced me to the squeezebox system. I put all my music on the server and it created more convenience while still sounding great. The Slimdevices classic, and then the Touch, replaced my expensive CD player in the Hifi system. (Later, the digital output of the Touch went into the DAC in a newer Rotel preamp.) Being able to create play lists and switch music from my couch is awesome, and I have no interest in going back to vinyl. Even if I could hear some improvement from vinyl in MY system, I doubt it would be so significant I would want to buy turntable and maintain a vinyl collection. What is defined as an improvement is subjective and matters to ME and not someone else.

    Now for my view on higher resolution (HiRes) formats, which I will define as above the CD standard. While HiRes allows more detail that COULD be heard by some people on revealing system, in my opinion a lot of it is an upsell attempt. It is marketing taking advantage of the claim that more resolution must be better, so people will buy it. After spending the extra money, it is natural that you will want to hear an improvement. There is diminishing returns on the ability to hear more detail from increasing higher resolutions.

    I will not deny that some people can hear the differences if these high resolution formats. However, being a person that support science a person should be able to identify the differences when subjected to double blind ABx tests. (An ABx test is when two samples are the same, for example A and x, and the person correctly identifies that A and x are the same and B is different.)

    I recall tasting differences between two bottles of wine that were the same vintage. Others thought they tasted the same and challenged me to prove it. I took an ABx test and passed. A person pointed out, I could have been lucky and guessed. I took the test again and passed.


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  • garym
    replied
    Originally posted by cliveb View Post
    Since the onset of the loudness wars and accompanying hypercompression, the sound quality of recorded music has been held back far more by incompetent mastering than the shortcomings of any digital format.
    I couldn't agree more!

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  • SamY
    replied
    Originally posted by cliveb View Post
    I'd rather listen to a decent mastering on 128kbs MP3 than some of the garbage coming out these days on 24/96.
    Now that's something I think we can all agree on!

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  • cliveb
    replied
    There's been a lot of stuff said here about how early CDs were rubbish.
    It's a long time ago now, but my recollection was that a large number of pop/rock CDs did indeed sound poor back in those days.

    And yet, there were plenty of classical releases that sounded (and continue to sound to this day) spectacularly good.
    One example that immediately springs to mind is the Maazel/Cleveland recording of Pictures at an Exhibition on Telarc.
    This was an early digital recording from 1979, first reissued on CD in 1983. It is still a reference recording.
    For sure, CD players did improve after a while, but some of the early players were pretty decent. The Philips 104 was only a 14 bit machine, but it still sounded good.

    What this suggests to me is that CD always was capable of great results, just that many early releases failed to capitalise on the potential.
    Lots of pop/rock CD issues in the early days were sloppily transferred from Nth generation copy tapes in a hurry to get product out as quickly as possible to cash in, so it's hardly surprising they lacked something.
    But let's not blame the format for the shortcomings of the recording companies' first attempts to exploit it.

    Since the onset of the loudness wars and accompanying hypercompression, the sound quality of recorded music has been held back far more by incompetent mastering than the shortcomings of any digital format. I'd rather listen to a decent mastering on 128kbs MP3 than some of the garbage coming out these days on 24/96. What's the point of 24 bit when the dynamic range of the recording is about 30dB (if you're lucky)?

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  • mooblie
    replied
    No, the expression you're thinking of is "Don't feed the troll".

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