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View Full Version : DSD playback via Logitechmediaserver using Squeezebox Touch or Wandboard



audiomuze
2013-09-29, 20:02
FYI it's now possible to natively play back DSD files from Logitechmediaserver using a Squeezebox Touch or Wandboard. To enable this you need to have a DSD capable DAC and encapsulate the DSD stream in a FLAC file. LMS believes it's putting out 176.4 PCM, but in fact it's passing through the untouched DSD stream - as will be confirmed by your DAC. Encapsulating the DSD files in FLAC format has the added advantage of being able to add album metadata to the files (something the DSD format does not natively support).

To encapsulate your DSD files in a FLAC wrapper you need to use a Foobar2000 plugin (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4jZ4NDGECzEczBjYVByNUdjdDg/edit?pli=1) to "convert" the DSD files to FLAC. Thereafter you can tag them like you would any FLAC file, add them to your LMS library and play them just as you would any other audio track (you will not get any sound if trying to play back through a non DSD capable DAC).


Instructions (works under Linux as well):

1. download the "foo_input_packeddsd.dll" file and place it in the Foobar Component folder

2. Install the FLAC plugin

3. After restarting Foobar you should see "SACD" under "File->preferences ->Tools" within Foobar

Set up as follows:

http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee434/audiomuze/foobardsd_zps699a12e0.png

Restart Foobar, open the folder containing your DSD files or drag the files into Foobar, edit tags if you wish, right click, select "Convert" and choose FLAC. Try playing the resultant files through USB to your DSD capable DAC, check to make sure it is playing DSD not PCM. If you're not getting DSD playback, recheck your Foobar config.

JohnSwenson
2013-09-29, 21:47
Hi, I think it's important to get some terminology straight here, there is some conflict of terminology in this DSD stuff that is confusing a lot of people.

There are currently two ways of playing back DSD information to a DAC that actually plays the DSD data, one is called DoP (DSD Over Pcm) which is what is being talked about here, and the other is based on ASIO. The ASIO interfaced is sometimes called "Native DSD" to distinguish it from DoP, so I recommend that anyone talking about DSD over computers to DACs explicitly mention either DoP or ASIO to avoid confusion.

This thread mentions native DSD and not DoP, when in fact it is talking about DoP, this could be very confusing to some people.

It's important to make the distinction because some DACs support one or the other format, only a DAC which supports DoP will work with this scheme on the SB line. There are several player programs which support the ASIO format (which they call native DSD) which is very different than DoP.

And yes DoP works very well with the SB infrastructure, just make sure you get a DAC that supports DoP. Unfortunately I have seen several DACs which say they support native DSD, with no mention of DoP, but what they actually support is DoP. And other that say they support native DSD and what they support is the ASIO format. There are a few that support both.

So if you want to use this scheme with the SB universe make sure you contact your DAC maker and make sure it supports DoP.

John S.

Mnyb
2013-09-29, 21:53
Thanks for the headsup ,both of you .

The DSD2PCM plugin looks interesting even for us not using a DoP capable DAC the vendors selling these files migth turn up some good stuff eventually, a good remaster or something new. You could simply turn these into 24bit flac of some kind .
(there is a scarcity of lossles downloads so I would consider awkward ways off getting the stuff) .

audiomuze
2013-09-30, 00:05
Hi, I think it's important to get some terminology straight here, there is some conflict of terminology in this DSD stuff that is confusing a lot of people.

There are currently two ways of playing back DSD information to a DAC that actually plays the DSD data, one is called DoP (DSD Over Pcm) which is what is being talked about here, and the other is based on ASIO. The ASIO interfaced is sometimes called "Native DSD" to distinguish it from DoP, so I recommend that anyone talking about DSD over computers to DACs explicitly mention either DoP or ASIO to avoid confusion.

This thread mentions native DSD and not DoP, when in fact it is talking about DoP, this could be very confusing to some people.

It's important to make the distinction because some DACs support one or the other format, only a DAC which supports DoP will work with this scheme on the SB line. There are several player programs which support the ASIO format (which they call native DSD) which is very different than DoP.

And yes DoP works very well with the SB infrastructure, just make sure you get a DAC that supports DoP. Unfortunately I have seen several DACs which say they support native DSD, with no mention of DoP, but what they actually support is DoP. And other that say they support native DSD and what they support is the ASIO format. There are a few that support both.

So if you want to use this scheme with the SB universe make sure you contact your DAC maker and make sure it supports DoP.

John S.

Thanks for the clarification John. Technically speaking, is there any difference between the audio bitstream the DAC sees when presented with a DSD stream supplied via DoP vs that supplied via ASIO (I presume this is what JRiver uses)? My DAC is capable of playing both and sees both as DSD?

JohnSwenson
2013-09-30, 21:16
Thanks for the clarification John. Technically speaking, is there any difference between the audio bitstream the DAC sees when presented with a DSD stream supplied via DoP vs that supplied via ASIO (I presume this is what JRiver uses)? My DAC is capable of playing both and sees both as DSD?

The eventual audio data delivered to the DAC is the same with both formats. The formats themselves are very different. The DoP version takes up slightly more bandwidth since it sends out a special sequence of data that is extremely unlikely to happen in real life music. The Dac starts reading the PCM stream and if it sees this pattern happen a certain number of times in a row, it will then start interpreting the data as DSD. This sequence gets sent periodically so that takes up a little extra bandwidth.

The ASIO is a dedicated DSD format so it doesn't need the extra sequence of data to determine if the data is DSD or PCM.

BTW there are at least two different versions of the ASIO format in use today. The spec was extremely poorly defined so different hardware vendors and software vendors have interpreted it differently, so you have some ASIO drivers not working with some DACs that are supposed to support the ASIO format. This caused Jriver a lot of grief, they did their software to a specific DAC, then others came along which supported a slightly different format. That had to work long and hard to make their products support both types. Not all software vendors have done that.

John S.

Lem
2013-09-30, 23:41
Almost sounds like DoP is a safer bet!

It should also be possible to do this on the fly with dsd2pcm maybe using a customconvert file. I don't have a DSD dac so haven't given it much though other than a 'what if?'
I see that Kipeta has put together such a plugin with his DaPhile distro. However, he seems keen to keep it out of the public domain. Personally, this seems a bit counter-productive as he's had a few struggles with it and there are more than enough experienced hands on this forum!

Lem
2013-09-30, 23:44
PS. Are you running Foobar in WINE in your screenshots?

audiomuze
2013-10-01, 01:37
I am running Foobar using Wine under Lubuntu in those screenshots.

Using DoP you can tag your files, using DFF and playing that using ASIO you can't.

Holzohr
2013-10-10, 00:14
Ted`s "DSD Database" https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfV UE#gid=0 has helped me to find a suitable DoP-ready DAC.

Another thread "How to use the Squeezebox Touch to play DSD files on a DoP compatible DAC " http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=119364.0

kipeta
2013-10-14, 02:01
...
I see that Kipeta has put together such a plugin with his DaPhile distro. However, he seems keen to keep it out of the public domain. Personally, this seems a bit counter-productive as he's had a few struggles with it and there are more than enough experienced hands on this forum!

I wrote already two months ago: "If there is a person who would be interested to integrate and develop more generic DSD plugin for LMS please let me know. My own focus is now more on getting things work with Daphile." (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?99132-Call-for-testers!-Daphile&p=754781&viewfull=1#post754781).

There have been struggles. Some of them are hopefully fixed (one more dsf fix coming with next Daphile release). I'm willing to give all code to person who wants to develop it further and support it for the community. I don't have currently enough time for that. One of the difficulty related to my approach is that I have patched CPAN AudioScan which is a part of LMS and that makes it impossible to provide it as a sole plugin.

If there is someone interested please contact me through the www.daphile.com (I somehow tend to miss the private messages on the forum).

marflao
2014-06-05, 00:58
3. After restarting Foobar you should see "SACD" under "File->preferences ->Tools" within Foobar

Set up as follows:

http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee434/audiomuze/foobardsd_zps699a12e0.png




I already asked this in another forum but since I havenīt received any feedback yet Iīd like to post it here, too.

The question I have is regarding the Foobar settings, in particular the PCM Sample Rate setting.
Should this always be set to 176400 (regardless if itīs a DSD64 or DSD128 or even higher DSD file/album)??

Thanks in advance.

WadDad
2015-07-15, 04:26
marflao, Answer is here (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=119364.msg1296419#msg1296419).

marflao
2015-07-15, 09:21
Thanks WadDad,

My old English teacher used to say (when i missed the beginning of the lesson): "Better late than never." :-)

So thanks for your respond. Much appreciated.