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tikavista
2013-05-21, 23:42
Hello,

I would like to tell the forum community my bad experience as a French customer with a German dealer. Sorry for my bad English.

I bought a Touch to the German company Deltatecc on January 2012. The screen touch feature stopped working few weeks ago. I could use the Touch with the remote control only. I tried to downgraded the firmware, I pushed many time the reset button - either short or long pushes, all with no success.

As my Touch was still under guarantee for 8 months I explained the problem to Deltatecc on April 20 . They asked me to send them the Touch to "check it in their service". They acknowledge the receipt of the parcel on April 30. They got my Squeezebox, the full set of accessories, a copy of the invoice, a short description of the problem.

I got a mail from Deltatecc on May 2.
1 - The device cannot be fixed nor replaced as it is no longer manufactured.
2 - As per Google Translate : they " would like to offer a gesture of goodwill following alternative: the new Logitech UE Smart Radio in black".

I replied to them the same day, as soon I could read their e-mail and have it translated : "Thank you for your proposal to send me a Smart Radio in compensation of the damage. I accept your offer ON CONDITION that you also send me back my faulty Squeezebox Touch". The capital letters were in my original message too.

I got another mail from Deltatecc seven minutes later (Google Translate - German to English) : "We arrange the shipping the Logitech UE Smart Radio in Black immediately. The defective Logitech Squeezebox Touch Internet radio was passed on to the manufacturer and can not be given" (back).

I sent immediately to Deltatecc new e-mail. I said to them : I want my Squeezebox back, it is still my property even if it was not working well, the capabilities of a Smart Radio capabilities has nothing to do with a Squeezebox, all that mess is unacceptable.

The next day, Deltatecc sent to me the following (Google Translate) : " Repair your order has been processed according to the manufacturer today and sent by us to you.".

I got the parcel on May 10. Unfortunately my Touch was not in it. Deltatecc have only shipped to me a Logitech Smart Radio, a simple internet radio set, just 100% useless for me.

I have contacted Logitech to get some help from them. They said they will help me to locate my Squeezebox in their workshops only if I can tell them where and when it has been sent by Deltatecc. The person mentioned that Deltatecc has probably not shipped the device to Logitech ...

Since May 10, I have sent to Deltatecc several e-mails and a 4 pages letter. To sum up my messages, I said to them :
1 - The Smart Radio is not a substitute for the Squeezebox. I can send it back to you. Just ask for it.
2 - I never gave you permission to swap my Squeezebox Touch for a Smart Radio. Why have confiscated my Squeezebox ? I'm still the owner of the device I sent you for repair purpose only.
3 - Where is my Squeezebox Touch now ? I want to know how and when Deltatecc - or Logitech - are going to send it back to me.
4 - Why don't you answer to my mails and letter ?

I never had any reply from Deltatecc. They keep silent. Deltatecc trapped me.
Is my Touch in someone's pocket or on Ebay ?

Thank you for any suggestion to help me have my Touch back.

toby10
2013-05-22, 03:36
All seems very reasonable to me by the retailer/dealer.
- tried to fix it (in US you exchange broken items in first 30 days, after that it's pretty much all dealing directly with mfr)
- offered a replacement product well after the return period (typically 30 days in US)
- needed to send back the Touch to mfr to get credit for the item they gave you in exchange
- unreasonable to ask for both items (new exchange Radio and the returned Touch)

Granted the UE Radio is no Touch, but they offered the only thing they could and you accepted it.

kesey
2013-05-22, 04:12
toby10, European legislation and consumer practice is apparently very different to what pertains in the USA. The dealer's behaviour was in no way reasonable or correct. The OP made an offer to the dealer: "Thank you for your proposal to send me a Smart Radio in compensation of the damage. I accept your offer ON CONDITION that you also send me back my faulty Squeezebox Touch". That is a clear offer. If the dealer chose not to accept it, then he should behave accordingly.

The fact that German and French were the languages in use here may have something to do with the cockup. No doubt Google Translate, or whatever means of translation was used, caused misunderstanding and confusion. Nevertheless, the OP is due his Touch back...whether he gets it or not is another matter.

tikavista, I'd suggest you get on to one of the German Consumer agencies and see if they will do anything for you, by way of contacting Deltatecc and attempting to get an equitable resolution.

toby10
2013-05-22, 04:30
Apparently so. :)

In the US, and using some common sense, the consumer is not entitled to receive both a replacement item (or best item possible based on discontinued products) and the original item back. It's a warranty exchange of a bad item for a good item where the retailer is likely being reimbursed/credited by the mfr for the replacement item but only if the mfr receives back the returned item from the retailer.

Can you do the same with cars in the EU? You buy a new car, car is determined to be defective (cannot be fixed/remedied by repairs, called a "Lemon" in the US), mfr agrees to give you a new car, but you also get the defective car back? I'd find that highly unlikely, no matter where one lives. ;)

Sakkerju
2013-05-22, 04:39
I would say in the European Union, that retailer should refund the money for the defective Touch.
And afterwards, consumer is free to buy something else anywhere...e.g. a UE Radio from the same shop.

simbo
2013-05-22, 04:45
Can you do the same with cars in the EU? You buy a new car, car is determined to be defective (cannot be fixed/remedied by repairs, called a "Lemon" in the US), mfr agrees to give you a new car, but you also get the defective car back? I'd find that highly unlikely, no matter where one lives. ;)
I think it's more that the vendor agreed to the conditions of replacement laid out by the OP by sending a "goodwill" Radio, but did not fulfill the conditions by also returning the original.

They could (and will) argue the Radio was a direct replacement for the Touch but under EU regulations this can only happen if the replacement is of equal (or more) value, which is not the case as the Touch was being sold at a substantially higher price than the Radio.

servies
2013-05-22, 04:50
Apparently so. :)

In the US, and using some common sense, the consumer is not entitled to receive both a replacement item (or best item possible based on discontinued products) and the original item back. It's a warranty exchange of a bad item for a good item where the retailer is likely being reimbursed/credited by the mfr for the replacement item but only if the mfr receives back the returned item from the retailer.

Can you do the same with cars in the EU? You buy a new car, car is determined to be defective (cannot be fixed/remedied by repairs, called a "Lemon" in the US), mfr agrees to give you a new car, but you also get the defective car back? I'd find that highly unlikely, no matter where one lives. ;)
The problem here is:
You originally bought a Mercedes Benz 500SL, it breaks down and as a new car you get a Volkswagen UP from the mfr...

toby10
2013-05-22, 05:11
Completely agree:
1. refund original purchase price
2. offer a UE Radio replacement and refund of price difference between Radio and Touch
* assuming either 1 & 2 applies by retailer 8 months after the original purchase

Where I don't agree:
3. no contract, retailer made offer to replace item, consumer made counter offer of replacement + original item returned, don't see acceptance of this counter offer by retailer (as noted, likely language translation issue)

Seems unreasonable to ask for return of original item in any scenario 1 or 2 or 3 as this likely means retailer will not get credit for the returned item. So now the retailer is out two items and was only compensated for one (original purchase), all for an issue (mfr defect) completely out of the retailers control.

tikavista
2013-05-22, 09:11
Surprisingly I got a mail from Deltatecc today.

"Please Excuse the belated answer.
We have sent your device under warranty. Unfortunately, it was found that the error is not corrected. Since the unit was no longer available, we have offered an alternative. You have accepted this. Of course it is in this case so that we can not also enclose the old unit, since this was sent to the manufacturer.
We would therefore ask for your understanding that we can not fulfill your request."

As you can see their position is still the same.
Thank you to all af you. I read carefully your interesting posts.

Mnyb
2013-05-22, 20:53
You can not keep the broken unit and get an replacement in EU either , it does not work that way .
it never has worked that way , the selling company would not get their moiney back from logitech unless they provide the broken unit.

But the UE Radio is not an replacement for a Touch .

You should never have accepted that but take you money back instead :/

Not even the difference money between a UE Radio and Touch is worth it , as the UE product is useless compared to Touch for the Touchs intended use and purpose .

And also knowing that the Touch is discontinued product I would never had returned it for a broken screen .
A broken Touch is more than no Touch at all . And the touch feature is not that important use a smartphone instead ?

tikavista
2013-05-23, 01:19
Apparently so. :)

In the US, and using some common sense, the consumer is not entitled to receive both a replacement item (or best item possible based on discontinued products) and the original item back. It's a warranty exchange of a bad item for a good item where the retailer is likely being reimbursed/credited by the mfr for the replacement item but only if the mfr receives back the returned item from the retailer.

Can you do the same with cars in the EU? You buy a new car, car is determined to be defective (cannot be fixed/remedied by repairs, called a "Lemon" in the US), mfr agrees to give you a new car, but you also get the defective car back? I'd find that highly unlikely, no matter where one lives. ;)

I read many pages on Internet about the guarantee in Europe of an object that cannot be repaired or changed for a new one. I found nothing about the transfer of property of the defective good from the original owner to the seller, even in case of exchange.
In Europe and probably everywhere, you can ask to keep the defective spare parts when you have anything repaired. Why would that be different with any whole object if that object has no marketing value ?

I talked to somebody of Logitech. I understood they do not need the faulty Touch to change it for something else. Photos and a copy of the invoice seem to be enough. Why would that be different with Delatecc ?

tikavista
2013-05-23, 01:22
tikavista, I'd suggest you get on to one of the German Consumer agencies and see if they will do anything for you, by way of contacting Deltatecc and attempting to get an equitable resolution.

Deltatecc display the logo of TrustedShops on the web. I sent to TrustedShops a long e-mail, May 18. No answer at the moment.

toby10
2013-05-23, 01:38
....... In Europe and probably everywhere, you can ask to keep the defective spare parts when you have anything repaired. Why would that be different with any whole object if that object has no marketing value ?

The difference is in who is paying for the repair. If the consumer is paying for it themselves then it is customary to return to the consumer any replaced parts/pieces. If the mfr is paying for the repair under warranty then it is customary for the mfr to keep the replaced parts/pieces. You are welcome to ask for such parts back in any repair situations, but it is up to the mfr and their policies whether you get such parts back when you are not paying for the repair.

toby10
2013-05-23, 02:00
I read many pages on Internet about the guarantee in Europe of an object that cannot be repaired or changed for a new one. I found nothing about the transfer of property of the defective good from the original owner to the seller, even in case of exchange.

I talked to somebody of Logitech. I understood they do not need the faulty Touch to change it for something else. Photos and a copy of the invoice seem to be enough. Why would that be different with Delatecc ?

Yes, and there is nothing in US law that "mandates" how a mfr handles the return of property for warranty repair/exchange, it is completely up to the discretion of the mfr. Some will want the item back (very reasonable IMO), some will ask that the item be disabled or destroyed in some way (but not actually returning the entire item), some will not want to be bothered with anything actually returned.

Then you get into the same policies for the retailer who will also have their own rules on returns/refunds/exchanges.

But none of this changes what is customary, ordinary, common sense. In such, I believe you asking for the entire returned unit back is simply unreasonable IMO. I've personally returned/exchanged/had refunded many items and have witnessed many others return items, not once was the returned item requested by, nor offered to, the consumer in such situations.

I'm on your side, I hope you do get it back. I just think you are making a big deal out of a minor retail purchase where the retailer and/or mfr is doing what is customary and ordinary while your request is not customary and ordinary. I see nothing wrong with how Delatecc has handled this in the normal, customary and common sense way of conducting business in regards to returns/exchanges of purchased merchandise, with the exception of maybe some better communication to you the consumer.

tikavista
2013-05-24, 23:22
Thanks to all of you for your posts. Surprisingly I got a mail of Deltatecc May 22. The mail was written in english.

" We have sent your device under warranty. Unfortunately, it was found that the error is not corrected. Since the unit was no longer available, we have offered an alternative. You have accepted this. Of course it is in this case so that we can not also enclose the old unit, since this was sent to the manufacturer.
We would therefore ask for your understanding that we can not fulfill your request." (end)

I answered to them the same day.

"Thank you for your email of 22/05/2013. I am sorry to say that I do not agree with it.

1 - I did not accept the alternative you are talking of.

- May 2, 12h21, you mailed me a proposal to send me a Smart Radio. I got your mail in the afternoon.
- I replied the SAME DAY, 17h19 : (Quotation) "Thank you for your proposal to send me a black UE Smart Radio in compensation of the damage. I accept your offer ON CONDITION that you also send me back my faulty Squeezebox Touch. Please confirm that you will send both devices, the Smart Radio AND my Squeezebox Touch."
- The same words were in capital letters also in my mail. In other word : OK for the Radio only if my Squeezebox Touch is sent back to me as well.
- When you have mailed your proposal to send me a Radio on May 2, 12h21, my Squeezebox was already "lost". This what you wrote me in your mail of may 2, 17h26. What kind of deal was it ? Whatever my choice was, Smart Radio or not, my Squeezebox would have been kept by someone.

2 - You say my Squeezebox was sent to the manufacturer. That means that you have sent it to Logitech.
As I told you in my mail of May 15, Logitech say they can find it. They just wait you cooperate a little.

- I wrote in my mail of May 15 : "I have informed LOGITECH of the whole story. LOGITECH have decided to follow the after-sales steps in order to clarify the status of my Squeezebox Touch."... "LOGITECH want to know in detail :
1 - The NAME OF THE COMPANY to which you have sent the Squeezebox to be repaired,
2 - the LOCATION of that company (its address).

- Have you sent my Squeezebox to Logitech, yes or no ? What is the address of that Logitech workshop ? When have you sent the Squeezebox to them ?
Just answer these simple questions to me. I will give Logitech your answers and they will locate the device." (end)

I will not give up. Deltatecc is not fair. I want my Touch back !

Mnyb
2013-05-25, 00:08
You will be very lucky if they can find it for you it's probably recycled by now, no one repairs this kind of electronics nowadays , you just replace it

aubuti
2013-05-25, 07:51
I will not give up. Deltatecc is not fair. I want my Touch back !
You can continue your Quixotic quest, but you're never going to get your Touch back because they'll never find it.

Your only hope is to try to get your money back from Deltatecc, and of course return the Radio they sent you. Since you say the Radio is useless to you, I don't understand why you accepted it in the first place. If you hadn't accepted it may have saved yourself a lot these problems.

Squeezemenicely
2013-05-26, 03:02
I still do not quite understand why the customer thought he could get a free Radio, plus his Touch (repaired or unrepaired)

Sort of two for one. This might come as a shock, but the dealers actually have to also pay for the devices and sell them, since they have to make a living...

If the Touch was broken and cannot be repaired or exchanged, then the customer should get the money back. Or the customer accepts another device - the radio.

In general if someone has a problem with a Logitech device it is much easier to contact Logitech directly, that way one can find out if they actually still have replacement boxes.


From what I have read, it seems like the dealer went out of his way to help the customer.

If you do not want a radio, do not accept it as a replacement - pretty simple.

Mnyb
2013-05-26, 05:20
I still do not quite understand why the customer thought he could get a free Radio, plus his Touch (repaired or unrepaired)

Sort of two for one. This might come as a shock, but the dealers actually have to also pay for the devices and sell them, since they have to make a living...

If the Touch was broken and cannot be repaired or exchanged, then the customer should get the money back. Or the customer accepts another device - the radio.

In general if someone has a problem with a Logitech device it is much easier to contact Logitech directly, that way one can find out if they actually still have replacement boxes.


From what I have read, it seems like the dealer went out of his way to help the customer.

If you do not want a radio, do not accept it as a replacement - pretty simple.

But due to some combination of misunderstandings from both sides, op had it exchanged for an EU radio already , bummer .
Bad luck , move on .
There is no " repair shop" for these kind of things the cost of manufacturing is probably less than 5 minutes of engineering time .
So it probably went straight to the recycle bin at a Logitech office somewhere .

But if he had asked for the money back and no Radio in exchange the seller still had to get the broken Touch that's entirely reasonable .

So what to do with discontinued products ? Don't return them , take the loss and try to fix it elsewhere :/

reinholdk
2013-05-26, 14:24
If you do not want a radio, do not accept it as a replacement - pretty simple.

For me it looks like the customer does exactly this: he's not accepting the Radio as a replacement.

The dealer offered the Radio and the customer answered that he accepts it only if he gets the (unrepaired) Touch back. If the dealer didn't agree he should not have sent the Radio while keeping the Touch.

tikavista
2013-05-27, 02:17
aubuti - My Touch is 1.5 years old. How much would Deltatecc give me back ? May be 100 or 120 euros (125 - 150 dollars) and I would have to spend 20 euros more to send the radio back to Deltatecc.

Mnyb - Only few Touch float around from time to time. Just 400 or 500 dollars to get one.

reinholdk - I do agree with you, and Deltatecc should have ask me prior to ship the Radio.

aubuti
2013-05-27, 07:45
aubuti - My Touch is 1.5 years old. How much would Deltatecc give me back ? May be 100 or 120 euros (125 - 150 dollars) and I would have to spend 20 euros more to send the radio back to Deltatecc.
You'd have to ask Deltatecc how much they'd give you back.

Of course, it's up to you how you want to spend your time and money, but 100-120 Euros definitely sounds like a better resolution for you then what you're likely to get by ranting here that Deltatecc is unfair and that you want your long-gone Touch back.

simbo
2013-05-27, 08:46
So what to do with discontinued products ? Don't return them , take the loss and try to fix it elsewhere :/
Oddly enough, under EU regulations you can get the product repaired elsewhere - and have the vendor refund the repair costs - if they refuse to repair/replace it to begin with. Not that it really helps in this case of course.

tikavista
2013-05-31, 05:37
Deltatecc pretend they shipped my Touch to Logitech.

I asked twice for details to find where the Touch was with the help of Logitech. They never answered.
That confirm what the guy of Logitech suggested to me. Deltatecc have never sent my Touch to Logitech, that is now quite certain.

I offered Deltatecc 5 days ago to unblock the situation in accordance with the European Consumer Rules. To sum up my e-mail : you give me the money back for the Touch and I send back your Radio in its original sealed box. They did not reply. Deltatecc have definitely shut the door and have carefully locked it.

What am I going to do now ? I don't know yet, may be I'll sell the Radio, find a Touch somewhere and pay Deltatecc several visit on Facebook.

Thanks to all of you for your interesting posts.

tikavista
2013-05-31, 09:11
I got that mail few minutes ago from Deltatecc :

"I would like once again to explain the problem for you.
As we have already repeatedly informed the Logitech radio offered you an alternative for your broken Squeezebox. Mr. Celik has informed you that we can not send both, your Squeezebox and the Alternative Radio. Your Logitech Squeezebox is not available for us.
We are very harm about this but a refund is not possible."

It would have been so quick and so easy to tell where and when they sent the Touch. Logitech would have been able to find the Touch in their workshops with these data.

To be kind with Deltatecc, I just should say that it's quite hard to understand each other. Undoubtly because a word does mean the same for a isolated human user or for a distant virtual dealer.

tikavista
2013-06-01, 02:26
I got that mail yesterday from Deltatecc :

"I would like once again to explain the problem for you.
As we have already repeatedly informed the Logitech radio offered you an alternative for your broken Squeezebox. Mr. Celik has informed you that we can not send both, your Squeezebox and the Alternative Radio. Your Logitech Squeezebox is not available for us.
We are very harm about this but a refund is not possible."

It would have been so quick and so easy to tell where and when the Touch was sent. With that information, Logitech would have been able to find the Touch in their workshops.

The situation is hopeless. To be kind I should say that we will never understand each other.

Bye bye.

kidstypike
2013-06-01, 06:52
I got that mail yesterday from Deltatecc :

"I would like once again to explain the problem for you.
As we have already repeatedly informed the Logitech radio offered you an alternative for your broken Squeezebox. Mr. Celik has informed you that we can not send both, your Squeezebox and the Alternative Radio. Your Logitech Squeezebox is not available for us.
We are very harm about this but a refund is not possible."

It would have been so quick and so easy to tell where and when the Touch was sent. With that information, Logitech would have been able to find the Touch in their workshops.

The situation is hopeless. To be kind I should say that we will never understand each other.

Bye bye.

Bye Bye.