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View Full Version : Life after mysqueezebox.com is turned off



mikael_b
2013-02-27, 15:12
If I understand correctly, once msb.com is turned off, the functionality of TuneIn Radio will be lost. But, as TuneIn radio is available for many platforms, is there any hope they might release a version for the Squeezeboxes?

Mike

pippin
2013-02-27, 15:22
If you pay them enough, probably

mikael_b
2013-02-27, 15:48
If you pay them enough, probably

I payed 7 swedish crowns, .99$, for the plus version for my iThings if I remember correctly, but the basic version is free.
Why must I rely on msb.com for the Squeezeboxes when my iPad connects directly to tuneinradio.com and my account there. One could suspect that there is only one line of code to change?

Mikael

castalla
2013-02-27, 15:55
I payed 7 swedish crowns, .99$, for the plus version for my iThings if I remember correctly, but the basic version is free.
Why must I rely on msb.com for the Squeezeboxes when my iPad connects directly to tuneinradio.com and my account there. One could suspect that there is only one line of code to change?

Mikael


There are 2 versions for Android. One is free & works fine. The paid-for Pro lets you record.

Can't see why a free or cheap version couldn't be made available.

maggior
2013-02-27, 15:59
There probably aren't enough squeezeboxes out there for TuneIn to care about. You also have to factor in that the number of squeezeboxes out there is not growing, they will probaly shrink as people stop using them or they fail.

mikael_b
2013-02-27, 16:02
There are 2 versions for Android. One is free & works fine. The paid-for Pro lets you record.

Can't see why a free or cheap version couldn't be made available.

Same for iThings, I really like the recording capability so I went for the paid, expensive, version which might not be an option for the squeezeboxes, or maybe for a Touch with usb memory?

Mikael

pippin
2013-02-27, 16:16
Can't see why a free or cheap version couldn't be made available.

Because that's TuneIn's business model. What do you believe they are making money on? Selling groceries?
The smartphone Apps are marketing tools for them to attract radio stations, the business is selling to hardware and software vendors.

Do you believe Logitech gets their service for free?

castalla
2013-02-27, 16:18
Because that's TuneIn's business model. What do you believe they are making money on? Selling groceries?
The smartphone Apps are marketing tools for them to attract radio stations, the business is selling to hardware and software vendors.

Do you believe Logitech gets their service for free?

Well, android users, Roku users and others get it for free ...

pippin
2013-02-27, 16:25
Well, android users, Roku users and others get it for free ...

Have you actually read my comment?

castalla
2013-02-27, 16:40
Have you actually read my comment?

No need to be so snippy.

Apple charge for the app - others don't. That's all I'm saying.

pippin
2013-02-27, 16:47
Apple charge for the app - others don't. That's all I'm saying.

And it's just completely wrong.
"Apple" doesn't charge at all. Apple provides a platform for a developer or service provider to sell Apps - at the same terms Google does. Both take 30% off paid Apps and nothing off free ones.

It's not Apple deciding on the price, it's TuneIn. They do what best fits their business model which is selling radio lookup services to other companies. Selling to consumers is probably a test balloon for them.

You don't have to believe me, but you'll eventually have a meeting with reality, then.

castalla
2013-02-27, 17:07
And it's just completely wrong.
"Apple" doesn't charge at all. Apple provides a platform for a developer or service provider to sell Apps - at the same terms Google does. Both take 30% off paid Apps and nothing off free ones.

It's not Apple deciding on the price, it's TuneIn. They do what best fits their business model which is selling radio lookup services to other companies. Selling to consumers is probably a test balloon for them.

You don't have to believe me, but you'll eventually have a meeting with reality, then.

Deary, deary me ... how aggressive. Glad I don't have an iThing to tempt me to waste giving you 30% for your business opportunity. Still I suppose you have to make a living somehow.

Leave it.

mikael_b
2013-02-28, 12:05
Didn't mean to stir up such a heated argument, more qurious whether one could expect Tunein radio to allows us direct access to their service. I still don't understand why we can't connect our Squeezeboxes directly to Tunein radio.com like the iThings and Androids can.
Also, if mysqueezebox.com is, or rather when, discontinued, maybe they still keep myueradio.com alive, are the squeezebox radio so different from the ueradio that they cannot use the same Tuneinradio "system", in that way the combined volume is large enough for Tunein radios attention?
Mikael

erland
2013-02-28, 12:23
Didn't mean to stir up such a heated argument, more qurious whether one could expect Tunein radio to allows us direct access to their service. I still don't understand why we can't connect our Squeezeboxes directly to Tunein radio.com like the iThings and Androids can.
Also, if mysqueezebox.com is, or rather when, discontinued, maybe they still keep myueradio.com alive, are the squeezebox radio so different from the ueradio that they cannot use the same Tuneinradio "system", in that way the combined volume is large enough for Tunein radios attention?
Mikael

There is no technical problem, the issue is to get permission from TuneIn to do it.
If you do it without permission you also need to be prepared to handle any legal consequences since TuneIn doesn't have a free open API, they only offer their API to partners.

mikael_b
2013-02-28, 15:12
There is no technical problem, the issue is to get permission from TuneIn to do it.
If you do it without permission you also need to be prepared to handle any legal consequences since TuneIn doesn't have a free open API, they only offer their API to partners.

I was actually kind of hoping they would do it themselves, when i use the iPad app who is their partner, Apple? When I log in to their service from my win laptop?

Mikael

bpa
2013-02-28, 15:55
There is no technical problem, the issue is to get permission from TuneIn to do it.
If you do it without permission you also need to be prepared to handle any legal consequences since TuneIn doesn't have a free open API, they only offer their API to partners.

Not sure if these T&Cs ( http://blog.tunein.com/licensing/terms-of-use ) are up to date but it looks like, for non commercial use there may some scope for a replacement plugin but to do it it properly, a developer key is needed from Tunein.

As an example, there is an XBMC Tunein plugin ( https://github.com/brianhornsby/plugin.audio.tuneinradio/wiki ) and it seems to have been around for a few years so Tunein haven't stomped on it although I do not know it if actually works.

castalla
2013-02-28, 17:04
Not sure if these T&Cs ( http://blog.tunein.com/licensing/terms-of-use ) are up to date but it looks like, for non commercial use there may some scope for a replacement plugin but to do it it properly, a developer key is needed from Tunein.

As an example, there is an XBMC Tunein plugin ( https://github.com/brianhornsby/plugin.audio.tuneinradio/wiki ) and it seems to have been around for a few years so Tunein haven't stomped on it although I do not know it if actually works.

Just an update, FYI - the xbmc Tunein plugin works fine.

bpa
2013-02-28, 17:11
Just an update, FYI - the xbmc Tunein plugin works fine.

I looked through the OPML API and it looks like a lot of it will work without a Radiotime PartnerId and it seems the plugin does not have any developer key.
Can you see if the XBMC Tunein URLs have "PartnerId=xx" ? If not then it would seem that a subset of the API can be used without the need to register as a partner/developer with Tunein.

castalla
2013-02-28, 17:15
I looked through the OPML API and it looks like a lot of it will work without a Radiotime PartnerId and it seems the plugin does not have any developer key.
Can you see if the XBMC Tunein URLs have "PartnerId=xx" ? If not then it would seem that a subset of the API can be used without the need to register as a partner/developer with Tunein.

Would the xbmc log show that ?

castalla
2013-02-28, 17:22
Here's a bit of the log:

It's a station in Barcelona - can't see the partner id



00:01:24 T:3042807808 NOTICE: COMXPlayer: Opening: http://streamserver2.radioproducciones.com:8406
00:01:24 T:2956981312 NOTICE: Thread COMXPlayer start, auto delete: false
00:01:24 T:2956981312 NOTICE: Creating InputStream
00:01:25 T:2956981312 NOTICE: Creating Demuxer
00:01:25 T:2822173760 NOTICE: Thread CFileCache start, auto delete: false
00:01:25 T:2876240960 NOTICE: Thread Shoutcast file start, auto delete: false
00:01:25 T:2956981312 NOTICE: Opening audio stream: 0 source: 256
00:01:25 T:2956981312 NOTICE: Creating audio thread
00:01:25 T:2802705472 NOTICE: Thread COMXPlayerAudio start, auto delete: false
00:01:25 T:2956981312 WARNING: CDVDMessageQueue(video)::Put MSGQ_NOT_INITIALIZED
00:01:25 T:2802705472 WARNING: Previous line repeats 1 times.
00:01:25 T:2802705472 NOTICE: OMXClock using audio as reference
00:01:45 T:2956981312 NOTICE: COMXPlayer::OnExit()
00:01:45 T:2956981312 NOTICE: OMXPlayer: closing audio stream
00:01:45 T:2956981312 NOTICE: Closing audio stream

bpa
2013-02-28, 17:30
It's a station in Barcelona - can't see the partner id


The PartnerID will be in an URL with Tunein.com or Radiotime.com - it is used to find the url such as the one shown in the log.
It's possible the XBMC log may not show it so to confirm would need wireshark or mod the plugin btu I think it can wait.

castalla
2013-02-28, 17:54
The PartnerID will be in an URL with Tunein.com or Radiotime.com - it is used to find the url such as the one shown in the log.
It's possible the XBMC log may not show it so to confirm would need wireshark or mod the plugin btu I think it can wait.

I enabled the debug log - still no tunein.com found.

Thanks.

erland
2013-02-28, 21:34
Not sure if these T&Cs ( http://blog.tunein.com/licensing/terms-of-use ) are up to date but it looks like, for non commercial use there may some scope for a replacement plugin but to do it it properly, a developer key is needed from Tunein.

As an example, there is an XBMC Tunein plugin ( https://github.com/brianhornsby/plugin.audio.tuneinradio/wiki ) and it seems to have been around for a few years so Tunein haven't stomped on it although I do not know it if actually works.

Their licensing rules were different previously, it was easy to get a PartnerId previously and the OPML file was more or less an open API, I think they changed it about the time when RadioTime became TuneIn, but it could be worth to check with them if it's possible to get a PartnerId as a non commercial partner, I know it's hard as a commercial partner unless you can guarantee them volumes.

I've experimented with the OPML file in another project and using it for browsing (Browse method) and streaming (Tune method) isn't a problem without the PartnerId as far as I've seen. I didn't have access to any API documentation at the time, so thanks for the link, I think I might also have tried the Search method which also worked. Still, there might be legal issues because as far as I've seen the OPML file is no longer published by TuneIn as an API you are allowed to use, I found it from some third party software if I remember correctly.

Having said that, an open source plugin with a few thousand users would probably not be a target for TuneIn lawyers, especially if you don't put the PartnerId from someone else in the url. If they decided to take legal action towards a low volume plugin developer they would probably be happy if you just stopped distributing it, but anyone doing it should be aware of the risks, I don't think the OPML file without PartnerId is an official API any more. Using someone elses PartnerId is a bad idea, because some partners have to pay for each TuneIn user and TuneIn could be measuring amount of users by looking at the partner id in the request.

castalla
2013-03-01, 01:30
Using someone elses PartnerId is a bad idea, because some partners have to pay for each TuneIn user and TuneIn could be measuring amount of users by looking at the partner id in the request.

I don't think there's any intent to use another id.

If we already have access to an app (the Logitech version) couldn't that code be modified to remove the 'callback' to mysb.com ?

bpa
2013-03-01, 02:22
Their licensing rules were different previously, it was easy to get a PartnerId previously and the OPML file was more or less an open API, I think they changed it about the time when RadioTime became TuneIn, but it could be worth to check with them if it's possible to get a PartnerId as a non commercial partner, I know it's hard as a commercial partner unless you can guarantee them volumes.
.
.
Having said that, an open source plugin with a few thousand users would probably not be a target for TuneIn lawyers, especially if you don't put the PartnerId from someone else in the url. If they decided to take legal action towards a low volume plugin developer they would probably be happy if you just stopped distributing it, but anyone doing it should be aware of the risks, I don't think the OPML file without PartnerId is an official API any more. Using someone elses PartnerId is a bad idea, because some partners have to pay for each TuneIn user and TuneIn could be measuring amount of users by looking at the partner id in the request.

I hope it didn't across that I suggested to user another user's Partrner Id as that was not my intentions. I was curious to know whether the XBMC plugin actually used the PartnerID as the plugin documentation seemed to indicate it was not required.

Regarding PartnerId, I have already went through some of these hoops with Amazon AWS and the FindArt plugin and didn't want to leave myself open to litigation as a result of 3rd parties using (and possibly modifying) my plugin.

As the only proper way forward would be for someone to contact Tunein to see if a non commercial licenses is still possible. My concern would be that this may highlight the issue (e.g. XBMC plugin) within Tunein which may have been ignored and in the worst case scernario instigating a policy change which revokes all non commercial use of Tunein API. Perhaps the "softly, softly" approach would be to ask XBMC Tunein plugin developer is their id is non commercial and when was it issued.

erland
2013-03-01, 02:50
I hope it didn't across that I suggested to user another user's Partrner Id as that was not my intentions.

I didn't think you were going to use someone else partner id, I just wanted to make it clear to everyone else reading the thread that it would be a bad idea to do so.




the "softly, softly" approach would be to ask XBMC Tunein plugin developer is their id is non commercial and when was it issued.

Sounds like a good start, can you investigate it ?

I'm interested in the result so PM me if you don't want to post the answer you get to the public.

sbp
2013-03-01, 04:56
I really also would like to be independent on mysqueezebox.com for listening to radio stations. So I hope it will be possible to make a TuneIn plugin that allows us to do that.

I have seen that also MediaPortal has a TuneIn plugin - maybe something could be learned from their source code? http://forum.team-mediaportal.com/threads/radiotime-plugin-0-7-0-1-22-07-2012.40575/

mherger
2013-03-01, 06:25
I didn't think you were going to use someone else partner id, I just wanted to make it clear to everyone else reading the thread that it would be a bad idea to do so.

Sounds like a good start, can you investigate it ?

As Andy mentioned every SB owner already paid some money to TuneIn. There shouldn't be a problem running the plugin from LMS using the same partner ID. If you look into the plugin code you'll see that it's already there in many places.

Unfortunately the radio menu item had been created with extensibility in mind. Today there's more than just TuneIn (eg. the Staff Picks). It would probably be a good idea to make the plugin a pure TuneIn plugin and get rid of some of the overhead. If you want to give it a try: look at the InternetRadio plugin. Replace the call to /api/v1/radio with pulling the main OPML stream from TuneIn (should be in the XBMC thing). Then adjust _gotRadio to parse the returned OPML instead of some JSON data you would get from SN. That should be it.

We should probably move technical discussions to the devs forum to continue.

--

Michael

mherger
2013-03-01, 06:29
As the only proper way forward would be for someone to contact Tunein to see if a non commercial licenses is still possible. My concern would be that this may highlight the issue (e.g. XBMC plugin) within Tunein which may have been ignored and in the worst case scernario instigating a policy change which revokes all non commercial use of Tunein API.

A former SB guy now is working for TuneIn. He's a good guy :-). I've already sent him a mail about this issue. Hopefully he can give us some good answers.