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greenparent
2012-12-02, 23:21
Sorry if this is posted in the wrong place, but I just had to say it!

Sonos must be laughing their arses off here in the UK, I've seen Sonos advert after advert on the TV, for the first time ever and if you were new to streaming, why would look anywhere else?

Logitech you pulled out just at the wrong tiime!

verypsb
2012-12-02, 23:39
+1
Everbody knows Sonos in the Netherlands. It's advertised to death on TV & music magazines (and live concerts!) And I really think Sonos is a inferior and limiting product.

Nikhil
2012-12-03, 00:02
I have been using both products for over 7 years now, and neither is inferior - they are just two very different things. I find myself using the SqueezeBoxen far more often than Sonos, but for most people Sonos is easier to deal with, and simply just works out of the box. Sure there are library size limitations, inability to stream higher res files, and no ability to tweak as with Music IP integration, room correction, etc, but that probably makes it more robust and indeed for most playback scenarios it works superbly.

greenparent
2012-12-03, 02:04
I have been using both products for over 7 years now, and neither is inferior - they are just two very different things. I find myself using the SqueezeBoxen far more often than Sonos, but for most people Sonos is easier to deal with, and simply just works out of the box. Sure there are library size limitations, inability to stream higher res files, and no ability to tweak as with Music IP integration, room correction, etc, but that probably makes it more robust and indeed for most playback scenarios it works superbly.

Agreed, not saying SONOS is a bad system, just that if Logitech had had some drive behind marketing, maybe they wouldn't have had to make the decision they did, and now leave the playing field open! Yes there are alternatives to Sonos out there, but not on a budget, and even they don't do much marketing!

jimzak
2012-12-03, 04:43
Agreed, not saying SONOS is a bad system, just that if Logitech had had some drive behind marketing, maybe they wouldn't have had to make the decision they did, and now leave the playing field open! Yes there are alternatives to Sonos out there, but not on a budget, and even they don't do much marketing!

Sonos is advertising more and more with some slick national TV ads in the U.S.

danull
2012-12-03, 07:52
Sonos is advertising more and more with some slick national TV ads in the U.S.

Yep, I just saw my first advertisement for Sonos on TV about a week ago.

enigma
2012-12-03, 11:00
Yep, I just saw my first advertisement for Sonos on TV about a week ago.

i've been seeing sonos advertising since early october here on the east coast.

regardless, it's pretty clear that sonos ramped up their adverts immediately after logitech discontinued the squeeze line. logitech could've done adverts contrasting the two by pointing out it's strengths.

maggior
2012-12-03, 11:11
Sonos has a full sized product display in my local Target (a mass retailer here in the US - a more upscale version of WalMart). The display includes an andriod device where you can interact with the player. Quite slick. Too bad Logitech was never able to do something similar :-(. The closest I saw to this was a boom set up at a Best Buy shortly after its release. I remember not being overly impressed with the setup - a newbie wouldn't really have been able to understand what they were looking at.

All water under the bridge at this point.

JJZolx
2012-12-03, 13:38
Logitech you pulled out just at the wrong tiime!

That's what she said.

cliveb
2012-12-04, 02:43
Is it really any surprise that Sonos are advertising heavily? Audio streaming is their core (only?) business, so they need to make it successful to stay alive. All the recent (inferior) alternatives coming to market such as Airplay, DLNA, etc need to be met head-on.

On the other hand, in the context of Logitech staying healthy, Squeezebox was pretty much irrelevant. Whether Squeezebox succeeded or failed wasn't going to make a significant dent one way or the other on their bottom line.

aubuti
2012-12-04, 03:13
Whether Squeezebox succeeded or failed wasn't going to make a significant dent one way or the other on their bottom line.
Indeed, that may be the _only_ thing that Logitech management understood about the Squeezebox line. And they acted accordingly.

servies
2012-12-04, 03:42
Indeed, that may be the _only_ thing that Logitech management understood about the Squeezebox line. And they acted accordingly.
The problem is: they're deadwrong and made a decision that will kill Logitech in the future. The future for Logitech will not be in keyboards/mice as these will slowly disappear.
Why would I need a keyboard if I can use a touchscreen or can talk to the computer (whatever device)...
Why would I buy a transistor radio (UE radio) if I have a stereo system to which I can couple a product that can deliver stereo/surround sound and in high quality without the need for a constant internet connection...

If they're continuing on this path, Logitech will be marginalized within 10 to 15 years...

aubuti
2012-12-04, 09:00
But if you look at the Logitech product line you'll see they already do a lot more than keyboards and mice: home security(!), tablet accessories (like the very nice iPad kbd/cover that I am currently typing on, which is infinitely superior to the touchscreen kbd), cameras, microphones, headsets, and low-end audio like Bluetooth radios.

I think they can adapt within what they know, which is low-priced, high-volume, semi-disposable peripheral hardware devices. Especially those that don't require partnerships with content providers, which also doesn't appear to be their strong suit.

erland
2012-12-04, 10:19
I think they can adapt within what they know, which is low-priced, high-volume, semi-disposable peripheral hardware devices. Especially those that don't require partnerships with content providers, which also doesn't appear to be their strong suit.

Which means that they will probably in the stationary audio segment focus on:
- AirPlay speakers
- Bluetooth speakers
- iOS docking stations with built-in speakers

It would be strange if they would shutdown UE Smart Radio already now, but I suspect it will be safely placed in the backseat and their focus in this segment will be on the above products. If they like to continue doing devices similar to UE Smart Radio they need to lower the price a lot so it can be targeted to the mass market or increase the functionality a lot so it can compete with Sonos, currently it's placed in the middle with too little functionality and too high price.

servies
2012-12-05, 00:47
But if you look at the Logitech product line you'll see they already do a lot more than keyboards and mice: home security(!), tablet accessories (like the very nice iPad kbd/cover that I am currently typing on, which is infinitely superior to the touchscreen kbd), cameras, microphones, headsets, and low-end audio like Bluetooth radios.

Correct, but these are all areas where there are numerous competitors and where they don't excel... Sorry to say but in all those areas they're just average, nothing special...


I think they can adapt within what they know, which is low-priced, high-volume, semi-disposable peripheral hardware devices. Especially those that don't require partnerships with content providers, which also doesn't appear to be their strong suit.
Maybe, but so can the numerous Chinese manufacturers at a much lower price...

aubuti
2012-12-05, 15:26
For commodities like those you don't need to excel. Being average still sells millions of units per year.
So what's your point -- that they should have stayed with the products they don't understand? That's a great strategy.

dave77
2012-12-05, 16:46
Having owned SB for about 4yrs now work colleagues have been asking me for advice on streaming products. Of course I recommend SB but with no support and no future products I have to redirect them to Sonos, the products look iCool, simple to set up etc, i've never really looked into them before but fear I may have to soon as technology advances, eg Google Music etc, if Logitech could spend a little more effort, an app to access Google Music be amazing.

The Sonos Bridge too, why did Logitech not think of that, even if they don't use there own wireless network as Sonos does, a little Logitech box containing Squeezebox Server allowing access to any NAS devices would have solved lots of headaches!

I'm keeping my SB for as long as I can, for one I like an LCD display showing what's playing!

My advice to Logitech........................
Make a Sonos Bridge equivalent to remove the need for SBS and allow access to any network attached storage
Support Google Music
Make a modern Boom 2.0
Simples $$$$££££

servies
2012-12-06, 05:17
For commodities like those you don't need to excel. Being average still sells millions of units per year.
So what's your point -- that they should have stayed with the products they don't understand? That's a great strategy.
That's the same strategy that Nokia had... sticking to their current products... Guess where that company is now...

Logitech is never low priced and High End they're also not... That's a real problem they're going to have...

amcluesent
2012-12-07, 00:35
I see Sonos have now released a s/w upgrade so that iOS devices can be music source, rather than NAS. Great viral marketing when peeps are at Xmas parties and get their playlist right from iPhone to the hi-fi and other zones with Sonos players

bluegaspode
2012-12-07, 08:46
I see Sonos have now released a s/w upgrade so that iOS devices can be music source, rather than NAS. Great viral marketing when peeps are at Xmas parties and get their playlist right from iPhone to the hi-fi and other zones with Sonos players

I'm not sure how this will drain the batteries. Nor how they keep iOS from quitting the App after 10min (as I guess the App starts up a simple HTTP server to make the files available to the Sonos players, via their playlist).
Will investigate :) ... and maybe this is possible for Squeezeboxes as well (as long as people run their own server to hold the playlist).

But it's a cool marketing catch in any case (people even wouldn't need a NAS anymore to hold their music files) and people with some probability realize only later about the real implications.

squiggywidggy
2012-12-07, 09:02
Which means that they will probably in the stationary audio segment focus on:
- AirPlay speakers
- Bluetooth speakers
- iOS docking stations with built-in speakers

It would be strange if they would shutdown UE Smart Radio already now, but I suspect it will be safely placed in the backseat and their focus in this segment will be on the above products. If they like to continue doing devices similar to UE Smart Radio they need to lower the price a lot so it can be targeted to the mass market or increase the functionality a lot so it can compete with Sonos, currently it's placed in the middle with too little functionality and too high price.

Hi newbie here.

I would agree that Airplay, BlueTooth and iOS docking are very high on the audio playback list for most people. Real shame that Logitech pulled the plug just as computer audio is taking off.

Shame but at least I managed to bag a used SBT for a good price.

pippin
2012-12-07, 09:36
I still wonder how they got this past Apple's review. Maybe good friends, after all, Apple is selling Sonos equipment in its stores.

amcluesent
2012-12-07, 10:29
Oh, the shame - guidance on migrating from Squeezebox to Sonos...http://forums.sonos.com/showthread.php?t=31016

maggior
2012-12-07, 12:32
Oh, the shame - guidance on migrating from Squeezebox to Sonos...http://forums.sonos.com/showthread.php?t=31016

Tis a shame, isn't it? I've recently checked out Sonos myself to see what my options are when/if the day comes that I need to abandon my squeezebox setup. Given the prices, I'd have to be a little more selective about where I put players, but at least the product line and company appear to have some longevity.

In the mean time, I continue to use and enjoy my squeezebox setup.

Squeezemenicely
2013-02-14, 16:03
I bought a Sonos connect to test the system - and see if I should change over to them.

I must admit I really like it. Even with Squeezeplug, my SB system sometimes drove me nuts, being slow and unresponsive. Troubles with the server.

In a perfect world Sonos would not have the 65k limit, but I guess I can work around it.

The Sonos is just so stable and fast. Also at the moment I can get very good money for my SBs, which would make the migration easy. I just do not want to loose my investment and Sonos looks like it he to stay.

The apps are great, even if not as cool as iPeng, but maybe there will be an iSonos app someday.

I want to get more streamers and buying more SBs just does not feel right at the moment.

Still got time to test, but it looks like Sonos finally got me...

erland
2013-02-14, 17:28
The apps are great, even if not as cool as iPeng, but maybe there will be an iSonos app someday.

I wouldn't count on getting a lot of third party apps for Sonos, they are really closed regarding these kind of things.

There is the http://sonopad.com/ app from bluegaspode which could be an option if you like SqueezePad for Squeezebox, but except for this I suspect you will have to rely on whatever app Sonos provides themselves.

I think Sonos can be great, but you have to accept that you are limited to the functionality Sonos provides themselves, they don't have the third party development community and never will unless they completely change how they interact with third party developers.

So, if you just want something stable, Sonos is probably a good choice, if you want something that continuously offers you new way to explore the music you want to wait and see what the market comes up with during the next year or so. Someone is likely going to try to fill parts of the hole Logitech has left behind, there are too many customers who are willing to pay for functionality in this market segment for it to just disappear.

Squeezemenicely
2013-02-15, 03:04
@erland

Trouble with multiroom systems is, you buy into an entire ecosystem. So if you spend money and want to expand your collection of devices you need to trust that the system will be around in the future.

Of all the companies selling (moreless affordable) systems Sonos is the one I would trust to still be around in the future. They have been around for long and are really very visible on the market.

A friend has Raumfeld and I am not that impressed by it. Plus, who knows if they will be around in the future.


When I bought a system I decided against Sonos (also because of the pricetag) and for SB. But that is not really around anymore.

As for developer apps, the only one I use is Triode's Spotify - which is superior to the Sonos support.

The thing that sells me most on the Sonos is that you just click on a title and boom - there it is coming out of your speakers. The SB could run well, but it could also have a migrane and drive me nuts.

Still have some time to make up my mind, but it is looking like Sonos at the moment...

erland
2013-02-15, 09:08
@erland

Trouble with multiroom systems is, you buy into an entire ecosystem. So if you spend money and want to expand your collection of devices you need to trust that the system will be around in the future.

Of all the companies selling (moreless affordable) systems Sonos is the one I would trust to still be around in the future. They have been around for long and are really very visible on the market.

I completely understand your thoughts, if your main priority is to be able to enhance your system in the future, even if it isn't the best one on the market, Sonos is probably the best choice.

Squeezebox had been around for a long time until Logitech decided to stop selling them but the advantage with Sonos is that it's their only business so it's probably unlikely that they will stop selling their devices, at least as long as they don't get acquired by a bigger company that changes their strategy...

You will always have this issue when the software and hardware comes from the same company, the only real way to get around that issue is to have a documented protocol and allow third party hardware and software vendors to integrate with it, that way you aren't dependent on a single company. At the moment the only such solution available to the public which I'm aware of is UPnP but parts of the UPnP standard is really not optimized for usage with music. Future will tell if somebody comes up with a multi vendor solution which is more optimized for usage with music.

cliveb
2013-02-15, 09:18
You will always have this issue when the software and hardware comes from the same company, the only real way to get around that issue is to have a documented protocol and allow third party hardware and software vendors to integrate with it, that way you aren't dependent on a single company.
Am I missing something? Isn't SlimProto documented and publicly available? Even if it isn't documented, LMS is open-source so SlimProto can be discovered.

While I agree that Sonos is the proprietory system most likely to survive, it strikes me that systems built around LMS and open-source players such as Squeezelite can be kept alive for as long as the enthusiast wishes, and are therefore the most future-proof of the lot.

pippin
2013-02-15, 09:40
SlimProto is documented but the control interface used by SqueezePlay is not.
The CLI is, but the menu system, which now is the basis for the whole UI, is not fully documented. There is a documentation, but it's incomplete and in some places wrong and also the system changes from version to version.

garym
2013-02-15, 09:55
re: UpNP, just noticed this. May be old news....and I'm leery of any server that brags about converting FLAC to WAV on the fly (on the other hand, maybe that is important if many players require WAV in a UpNP world.... And can't see anything about synching or gapless, so I assume neither is supported.

http://minimserver.com/features.html

erland
2013-02-15, 11:33
re: UpNP, just noticed this. May be old news....and I'm leery of any server that brags about converting FLAC to WAV on the fly (on the other hand, maybe that is important if many players require WAV in a UpNP world.... And can't see anything about synching or gapless, so I assume neither is supported.

http://minimserver.com/features.html

There are a lot of UPnP servers that works pretty good, the issue is the other components in the UPnP setup, especially if you pick components from different manufacturers as it often tend to result in all sorts of incompatibility problems because the UPnP standard isn't strict enough so each vendor interprets it a bit differently.

DaveWr
2013-02-15, 11:42
re: UpNP, just noticed this. May be old news....and I'm leery of any server that brags about converting FLAC to WAV on the fly (on the other hand, maybe that is important if many players require WAV in a UpNP world.... And can't see anything about synching or gapless, so I assume neither is supported.

http://minimserver.com/features.html

This server software works flawlessly, and since it is based on the OHMedia open source software it supports Linns extensions to UPNP, that support gapless playback and using their shoutcast fully synchronising multiple players.

It also supports a very clever tag structure that allows browsing by all tag types in any order you choose. For example you can browse by composer and then composition and then orchestra.

It is written in Java, and there are build that run on virtually all platforms, both arm and intel based NAS devices and the usual Windows, Mac OSX and Linux variants.

Not bad for free and by one guy.

Dave

Squeezemenicely
2013-02-16, 06:24
HMM,
I am a bit stuck making decisions at the moment...

I really like the Sonos, it is so reliable and searches etc. are instant. Great system!

But,

having been a Squeezboxer it is hard to change over.


The main thing that drives nuts about SB is LMS running on Squeezeplug. Searches can be very slow, sudden restarts of the Server etc. Then having to wait till it is available again.

Plus iPeng is great.
Yesterday I thought, give SB a chance again. Did a search and my server crashed... If it only ran as smooth as the Sonos.
Scanning music on Sonos is so fast, really great performancewise.

I guess I could even adapt to buying lttle microcomputers running Squeezelite to get more SBs around my place.

Sorry for going around in circles, but I am sure other users are going through the same sort of dilemma.

I just want a reliable futureproof system.

garym
2013-02-16, 06:36
The main thing that drives nuts about SB is LMS running on Squeezeplug. Searches can be very slow, sudden restarts of the Server etc. Then having to wait till it is available again.


When I started with squeezeboxes I used a woefully underpowered readynas duo. It worked, but searching and browsing was painfully slow. I moved on to running LMS/SbS/SC on an old laptop and it was night and day difference. I've since moved to a headless vortexbox appliance as LMS server. With 70,000+ files, I find searching and browsing to be instantaneous. I am typically playing something (my own music or internet radio) 12 hours a day, longer on the weekend. I have no buffering/crashes/slowdowns, etc. Bottom line, an underpowered computer is not a good idea for optimum LMS/SB performance.

I'm sure SONOS is fine for many (most?) people. It doesn't work for me due to the size of my library, my tagging system (where I may have multiple ARTIST tags or GENRE tags), and SONOS lacks many (most) of the random playlist functions I've come to rely on (erland's dynamic playlists, the new SmartMix plugin, etc.).

Mnyb
2013-02-16, 07:17
I
HMM,
I am a bit stuck making decisions at the moment...

I really like the Sonos, it is so reliable and searches etc. are instant. Great system!

But,

having been a Squeezboxer it is hard to change over.


The main thing that drives nuts about SB is LMS running on Squeezeplug. Searches can be very slow, sudden restarts of the Server etc. Then having to wait till it is available again.

Plus iPeng is great.
Yesterday I thought, give SB a chance again. Did a search and my server crashed... If it only ran as smooth as the Sonos.
Scanning music on Sonos is so fast, really great performancewise.

I guess I could even adapt to buying lttle microcomputers running Squeezelite to get more SBs around my place.

Sorry for going around in circles, but I am sure other users are going through the same sort of dilemma.

I just want a reliable futureproof system.

You simply need a more powerfull server . I have no such problem with my HP microserver

reinholdk
2013-02-16, 08:32
HMM,
The main thing that drives nuts about SB is LMS running on Squeezeplug. Searches can be very slow, sudden restarts of the Server etc. Then having to wait till it is available again.


Since you've chosen LMS on Squeezeplug, you might have concerns about power consumption. That was true for me as well, when I was about to decide which kind of server computer to use a few years ago. First, I considered using a NAS as the server. But then I decided against it, to be sure that my system has more power than LMS will probably ever need.

I've built up my own PC from selected components, configured it to go to standby after some idle time and the SB players are waking it up when they are accessing LMS. This resulted in a silent system comsuming reasonably low power, of course not comparable with a plug computer in this regard, but with much more computing power on the other side. And I can use it for other tasks in parallel.

In the meantime there are many computers on the market that are probably even better than my home-made system.

jimzak
2013-02-19, 17:42
I

You simply need a more powerfull server . I have no such problem with my HP microserver

I'm using an i5 laptop with 4gb ram and no other applications except LMS and I get frequent stalls which can last up to 5 minutes.

reniera
2013-02-19, 17:47
try deinstalling trackstat

jimzak
2013-02-20, 05:09
try deinstalling trackstat

It's not installed. Thanks.

olc
2013-06-03, 17:33
I have been using both products for over 7 years now, and neither is inferior - they are just two very different things. I find myself using the SqueezeBoxen far more often than Sonos, but for most people Sonos is easier to deal with, and simply just works out of the box. Sure there are library size limitations, inability to stream higher res files, and no ability to tweak as with Music IP integration, room correction, etc, but that probably makes it more robust and indeed for most playback scenarios it works superbly.

I have also tried both, and the Logitech UIs on the Android app is far better on most music services. Simple example using TuneIn - on Squeezebox you are shown station names and theri city of location. On Sonos, you just get the name or call letters. Not nearly as useful in choosing a station.

The search function for the music library in Sonos is nowhere near as useful as Squeezebox, which lets you search artist, song, title, or playlist, where on Sonos it's just a generic search. Not very limiting in results when you have 50,000 tracks.

All in all I'm sticking with Squeezebox until the bitter end. I could live with Sonos, but I don't want to unless I have to.

froth
2013-06-03, 19:40
I'm sticking with my SB install at this point. The boombox are too good to give up and my sb3's are running well. However I have done lots of looking around just to keep informed in case my system packs it in. So far I have looked at Jongo and am pretty impressed with some of their products and since I am in no hurry I will keep watching what they have to offer in the future. Once they integrate their full wifi multiroom system with their players with displays then there may be something there to get really excited about.

I was looking at Olive newest product but it just seems like they have a ways to go in regards to a full ecosystem.

froth
2013-06-14, 12:13
Just noticed that Pure music just released Jongo A2 their music streamer for 99.00 pounds. It supports wifi for multiroom and sync and bluetooth for those who just want to do simple streaming. Unfortunatly there is little technical spec type documents available at this time in regarsd to the multiroom streaming. But if these things work, teh A2, S3 (portable cylendar speakers) and T6 (looks similiar to a Sonos Play device) then there maybe something good here. Especially once they connect in their devices with displays like radios.

maggior
2013-06-14, 13:20
Based on the specs here, there is no FLAC support:
http://www.pure.com/product/jongo-a240-vl-62148/#Specifications

Actually, there is no lossless format supported.

cadfish
2013-06-14, 13:21
I'm always surprised about the little attention Raumfeld has got.

http://www.teufelaudio.co.uk/raumfeld-audio-streaming/nr-streaming-high-end-70.html

These sytems are really nice - the Speaker L is a complete high end streaming solution. Speakers, Amp, Dac, wifi, - you only need a nas or other share from where you access your music and you are done. Each speaker pair contains a server - so, if you have more systems you have to define, which one acts as your multiroom server. In theory there is no other hardware needed. the audio quality is excellent

I've got a speaker s and tested the L. Compared to LMS the RF server misses lots of options - actually there are no options at all - which, however, may be better for an out of the box system. Additionally, the inbuild server does not have lots of horsepower - so, for a realistic system one would need the Raumfeld Base.

It just didn't fit into my SB (and audio equipment) eco system - if I were a starter, owning no streamers, amps, speakers a.s.o. I would certainly consider such a solution.

Gļæ½nther

sqnumber
2013-06-17, 23:03
that is just sb's own opinion, I believe my eyes

servies
2013-06-18, 02:49
SBS 7.8 - i5 laptop -Win 7 64bit
There's your problem (in combination with your librarysize)...

froth
2013-06-24, 07:48
I did get word back from pure (jongo) and they confirmed the lack of support for formats such as FLAC. Too bad given the way this looks to be architected with portable speakers with battery support, multiroom and sync, devices with displays, receiver only (A2) and powered spearkers with a future for stereo pairing. So close on many fronts.

erland
2013-06-24, 08:10
I did get word back from pure (jongo) and they confirmed the lack of support for formats such as FLAC.

Strange, previously someone said that FLAC was supported on the Jongo:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?97774-Jongo-Is-it-a-replacement&p=732213&viewfull=1#post732213

DaveWr
2013-06-24, 09:39
Strange, previously someone said that FLAC was supported on the Jongo:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?97774-Jongo-Is-it-a-replacement&p=732213&viewfull=1#post732213

Yep

Seems pure might like to update their UK retailers, as most claim FLAC support:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pure-Jongo-Wireless-speaker-Bluetooth/dp/tech-data/B009NE15OY

http://www.audioaffair.co.uk/PURE-Jongo-S3-Wireless-Speaker-with-Bluetooth/product_6836

froth
2013-06-25, 09:11
Yep

Seems pure might like to update their UK retailers, as most claim FLAC support:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pure-Jongo-Wireless-speaker-Bluetooth/dp/tech-data/B009NE15OY

http://www.audioaffair.co.uk/PURE-Jongo-S3-Wireless-Speaker-with-Bluetooth/product_6836


Yes I agree they need to speak with them as for the most part the specs from amazon are the same for the same device but the pure site now does not show FLAC. That is why I contacted their support guys as I was sure I saw it somewhere in some documentation. Here is what Pure has listed.

Model Jongo S340B

Wireless 802.11b and 802.11g supported with WEP and WPA/WPA2. A2DP Bluetooth support via supplied USB dongle.

Codec support Includes WMA (Standard V9), AAC, MP3, MP2