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Ikabob
2012-11-01, 05:10
I know this has been discussed so much but:

I am having a hard time believing that LOGITECH , a leader in audio technology, is not planning to offer a UE or Squeezebox device that can be connected to a stereo system (device similar to the discontinued SBTouch or SB3).
I am hoping that I will wake up someday and find such a device introduced and listed under the product line.
A solitary radio is nice for bedtime listening and to hear the news, but for full symphonic music appreciation and complete music enjoyment this stereo music system device must be in the planning stage.

LOGITECH had this capability previously with its Squeezebox line of devices( ie/ SBRadio,SBTouch,SBBoom, SBTransporter, SB3,etc.). Please don't tell me LOGITECH is going to let this AWESOME music capability drop. If it is true, please tell me why? There are so many audiophiles and music lovers out there to make this profitable for LOGITECH.

Luckily, I enjoy the functionality of the Touch connected to my audio system, but I would like to recommend it to so many people and I would like to add to my system. However the product is not there. Please tell me LOGITECH is planning on introducing such a device. The UE Radio is nice but it is ONLY a Radio.

Please. Tell me it ain't so ! Please.

Ikky

toby10
2012-11-01, 07:46
For right now it is so as UE only currently offers the Radio. If/when they come out with a stereo connected player like the Touch is anyones guess. There is always the stereo mini out plug on the Radio, if that would suffice (which would not in my setup).

Waldo Pepper
2012-11-01, 10:40
Their website just shows as products all the rubbish you could buy anywhere. Mice, Keyboards etc and no HiFi kit. Sad.....

bonze
2012-11-01, 12:09
Their website just shows as products all the rubbish you could buy anywhere. Mice, Keyboards etc and no HiFi kit. Sad.....
There's a seperate section for UE items.

And I'd disagree that their other products are "rubbish".

aubuti
2012-11-01, 12:49
Their website just shows as products all the rubbish you could buy anywhere. Mice, Keyboards etc and no HiFi kit. Sad.....
You just need to click the "Logitech | UE" button along the top bar. How many people will know that? Probably not many.

banned for life
2012-11-01, 15:11
I would mightily hope this does not whither on the vine.

Of course, it would be good to have some money so I could buy spares

b f l

jonn68
2012-11-02, 00:06
Logitech and music(audiophil): RIP

jonn

Frank1964
2012-11-02, 01:27
Sad to see that UE, as a top brand in Pro Audio, does not have a audiophile player and we have to deal with a crappy transistor radio to play the carefully selected flac file's. So Meredian it would me.... say goodbye to Logitech.... RIP squeezebox :-(

tin
2012-11-02, 02:26
If you bought a Radio, got it out of the box, and it JUST connected to MSB, would that not be almost the same as UE - except that maybe UE has some different user interface/is a bit more user friendly?

Then there is a menu option somewhere to enable the full squeezebox experience. Those people that want can go full SB, and have their system integrated etc, and buy an audiophile version etc etc.

Assuming that MSB could/should/would be able to be the same experience as UE, would that not acheive the same effect?

I can't understand why Logitech have spent time creating a centrally controlled music player/radio service, and has scrapped it to be replaced with something that does exactly the same thing.

toby10
2012-11-02, 02:35
They can't operate as both a SB Radio and a UE Radio by a simple menu function.
It's one or the other requiring a completely separate firmware (OS) for each type, SB or UE.
Not that many would not like your idea, as has been suggested before. But it's just not possible.

Ikabob
2012-11-14, 07:20
I know this has been discussed so much but:

I am having a hard time believing that LOGITECH , a leader in audio technology, is not planning to offer a UE or Squeezebox device that can be connected to a stereo system (device similar to the discontinued SBTouch or SB3).
I am hoping that I will wake up someday and find such a device introduced and listed under the product line.
A solitary radio is nice for bedtime listening and to hear the news, but for full symphonic music appreciation and complete music enjoyment this stereo music system device must be in the planning stage.

LOGITECH had this capability previously with its Squeezebox line of devices( ie/ SBRadio,SBTouch,SBBoom, SBTransporter, SB3,etc.). Please don't tell me LOGITECH is going to let this AWESOME music capability drop. If it is true, please tell me why? There are so many audiophiles and music lovers out there to make this profitable for LOGITECH.

Luckily, I enjoy the functionality of the Touch connected to my audio system, but I would like to recommend it to so many people and I would like to add to my system. However the product is not there. Please tell me LOGITECH is planning on introducing such a device. The UE Radio is nice but it is ONLY a Radio.

Please. Tell me it ain't so ! Please.

Ikky

The following promise by the LOGITECH representative let's me rest assured that LOGITECH will honor its responsibilities to previous paid consumers of their products:

"This is Dudley from the Logitech UE product team......
Logitech will continue to support these products with troubleshooting and support, the mysqueezebox.com website and the Squeezebox Controller Mobile App."


Thank you LOGITECH (Dudley)!

tin
2012-11-14, 12:49
IMHO that doesn't really mean anything, aside from there'll be discussion on the forum, and Logitech will execute any duties required of them in accordance with sales law in whatever countries. It's the same as all the other announcements so far imho (i.e. "rest assured" you can still use the last version of LMS and your squeezeboxes forever - but updates, new hardware and MSB are gone). That does not make me "rest assured" at all.

tin
2012-11-14, 13:02
They can't operate as both a SB Radio and a UE Radio by a simple menu function.
It's one or the other requiring a completely separate firmware (OS) for each type, SB or UE.
Not that many would not like your idea, as has been suggested before. But it's just not possible.

I fail to understand why it was not possible. Sure it's not possible now (well not quite true, but not without a giant u-turn on the part of Logitech).

If they had altered MSB to operate exactly the same as they want with UE, and make a brand new squeezebox work exclusively in that mode. Or even they could add a third "UE" mode, and again out of the box it only works in that mode. Then it's down to the user to willingly and knowingly decide to go into full squeezebox mode with some obscure menu item somewhere and it only works if the thing can detect a LMS on the network.

If LMS is the problem, maybe it's chewing up time for people on the payroll, turn it back over full time to open source.

I get the very distinct impression the hardware and the software both on the radio and the UE cloud side are absolutely based on modified versions of the existing squeezebox code so why not? I don't understand at all (from any angle, even if I put myself in the shoes of the CEO of Logitech, or their shareholders) why they would decide to scrap one (well known, loyal userbase) product line to create another that's unknown, incompatible but almost exactly the same product.

Smacks of an exceptionally bad decision by some high up management type who is desperately trying to make the decision stick - IMHO to Logitech's disadvantage. I expect there to be no audio division in Logitech in a short space of time.

Ikabob
2012-11-14, 13:42
I guess time will tell. But, I sense that LOGITECH is assuring us that they will remain accountable to us....those of us who have invested large amounts of money in these Squeezebox products. I have noticed that beta updates have continuously been added since their announcement of this so called "upgrade" to UE. Their statements, such as Dudley's, Ariel Fischer's, and others' , imply, to me, that they are seriously committed to legally standing behind our purchases and our expectations. Otherwise why would they come out and
make these statements...clear statements for the record. I simply do not believe that LOGITECH wants to lose their credibility to their customers nor to their stock investors. Maybe I am being naive by being "rest assured". I guess time will tell....I cannot see into the future. So far,they have done nothing to dissuade me from my faith in LOGITECH'S integrity. LOGITECH'S statements are on record. IMHO


"This is Dudley from the Logitech UE product team......
Logitech will continue to support these products with troubleshooting and support, the mysqueezebox.com website and the Squeezebox Controller Mobile App."

erland
2012-11-15, 10:50
I fail to understand why it was not possible. Sure it's not possible now (well not quite true, but not without a giant u-turn on the part of Logitech).

If they had altered MSB to operate exactly the same as they want with UE, and make a brand new squeezebox work exclusively in that mode. Or even they could add a third "UE" mode, and again out of the box it only works in that mode. Then it's down to the user to willingly and knowingly decide to go into full squeezebox mode with some obscure menu item somewhere and it only works if the thing can detect a LMS on the network.

They probably wanted to change customer base, basically get rid of the geeks and music enthusiasts and start attracting mass market users who mainly want to listen to internet radio and don't ask for bug corrections and new features all the time. Their only problem at the moment is that the UE Smart Radio is too expensive for mass market users, so the next UE Smart Radio product needs to be a lot cheaper.

By switching platform, they have the possibility to eventually shutdown mysqueezebox.com in a few years when most Squeezebox users have moved on to UE Smart Radio or more likely to some new exciting product from someone else with similar functionality as the Squeezebox.

I can't say I'm impressed of the work they have done with the UE Smart Radio so far, but it's the first iteration of a rebranded product, maybe the first real UE Smart Radio product which they are probably working on as we speak will show the full potential of their plan.



If LMS is the problem, maybe it's chewing up time for people on the payroll, turn it back over full time to open source.

All parts of LMS that can be open sourced already is open sourced.

The parts that aren't open source are those which Logitech doesn't have the right to open source because the rights are owned by other companies (installer and some codecs I think) or which Logitech can't open source because it's their company identity/trademark (logos and other graphics).

Except for this, mysqueezebox.com is heavily based on LMS, so even if they would let community maintain LMS they would need to handle similar changes on mysqueezebox.com themselves, so stop maintaining LMS would only get rid of parts of the problem. By the way, the UE Music Library server which is the local server used for UE Smart Radio is also heavily based on LMS code. So possibly they might have got rid of some of the problems by removing a lot of functionality in UE Music Library server.

JJZolx
2012-11-15, 14:54
They probably wanted to change customer base, basically get rid of the geeks and music enthusiasts and start attracting mass market users who mainly want to listen to internet radio and don't ask for bug corrections and new features all the time. Their only problem at the moment is that the UE Smart Radio is too expensive for mass market users, so the next UE Smart Radio product needs to be a lot cheaper.

Way too expensive, but they'll figure that out eventually. I think they're just trying to salvage something out the tens of millions of dollars that they pissed away on buying Slim Devices and f**king up the development and marketing of the Squeezebox line.

jhonsberger@msn.com
2012-11-15, 15:43
I recently purchased a Sonos Connect as a fail safe should Logitech pull the plug on mysqueezebox, which they eventually will,
to listen to music services such as MOG.

After a couple of months of use,i still prefer the Squeezebox Touch and no I don't have any 24/96/192 files and I don't exceed
that 65,000 file limit or whatever it is.

The Touch is simply a better product and cheaper too.

johnas
2012-11-15, 21:14
Yeah I agree with you. I wouldn't even limit it to the touch, I prefer my old SB3 to the Connect.

Daryle Tilroe
2012-11-17, 05:03
I've been a Squeezebox user and advocate almost since the beginning. About the only product I didn't own was the original SLIMP3. I have a dozen devices and was just talking about streaming home solutions with an acquaintance the other day and showing off my SB solution where I could control my home BOOM from my phone 300km away (Orangesqueeze on Droid). Haven't been plugged into the community for a while though and was just poking my head back in due to some insomnia. What a surprise!

I cannot understand why Logitech drove over the cliff with the higher end audio and highly flexible/customizable music server niche they bought from Slimdevices. My only hope is that Sean Adams gets off the beach , buys back the mess his vision has become (probably for pennies on the dollar now that Logitech has run it into the ground), and rescues us all. Hasn't he almost burned though the dump truck of money he got from Logitech on hookers and blow by now anyhow? :-D I kid!

All Logitech needed to do was to keep the hardware production ticking along, market the darn stuff better, and support/manage the open source development that basically comes for free. Killing the golden goose indeed. I really think they failed with the marketing and didn't really understand their base.

toby10
2012-11-17, 05:47
I guess time will tell. But, I sense that LOGITECH is assuring us that they will remain accountable to us..... LOGITECH'S statements are on record..

"This is Dudley from the Logitech UE product team......
Logitech will continue to support these products with troubleshooting and support, the mysqueezebox.com website and the Squeezebox Controller Mobile App."

The issue is the time frame and level of support, not their good intentions or whether they mean what they say......... now.

Time Frame: Technically they could shut down MySB.com tomorrow and Dudley's statement would still be accurate because they "continued support" for a period of time after they discontinued the SB hardware players. In this hypothetical and nonsensical case, a few months time frame. So the question is: what is a reasonable time frame? One year? Two years? Five years? Ten years? Every party involved (users, third party developers, subscription services, Logitech) will all have their own idea of a "reasonable" time frame.

Support Level: Even if MySB.com exists five years from now, at what level? How often might we see outages? How long to fix broken Apps and services? Service providers like Rhapsody may update their API, how long for (any remaining) techs to update the MySB side? What services will even be available on MySB two years from now?

But noone knows the answers including Logitech. It's the great unknown of time frame and service level that won't be answered until it happens. The one big ace in the SB hole is the similarity between MySB.com and UESmartRadio.com. Being so similar it likely would not take a monumental effort to keep MySB running & updated if they are doing the same for UE..... for as long as UE lasts anyway. :)

Ikabob
2012-11-17, 07:00
The issue is the time frame and level of support, not their good intentions or whether they mean what they say......... now.

Time Frame: Technically they could shut down MySB.com tomorrow and Dudley's statement would still be accurate because they "continued support" for a period of time after they discontinued the SB hardware players. In this hypothetical and nonsensical case, a few months time frame. So the question is: what is a reasonable time frame? One year? Two years? Five years? Ten years? Every party involved (users, third party developers, subscription services, Logitech) will all have their own idea of a "reasonable" time frame.

Support Level: Even if MySB.com exists five years from now, at what level? How often might we see outages? How long to fix broken Apps and services? Service providers like Rhapsody may update their API, how long for (any remaining) techs to update the MySB side? What services will even be available on MySB two years from now?

But noone knows the answers including Logitech. It's the great unknown of time frame and service level that won't be answered until it happens. The one big ace in the SB hole is the similarity between MySB.com and UESmartRadio.com. Being so similar it likely would not take a monumental effort to keep MySB running & updated if they are doing the same for UE..... for as long as UE lasts anyway. :)


Excellent points and I totally agree. Because of the large numbers of consumers who have invested large amounts of money in these excellent LOGITECH products with expectations of longevity and functionality, I do not think LOGITECH would want the publicity from disgruntled consumers. The meaning of the word "reasonable" might be interpreted differently.

LOGITECH has been a successful company and earned a reputation by maintaining high business and ethical standards and they and their shareholders, no doubt, wish to maintain this public image and reputation. I really have faith that LOGITECH will do the right thing and honor their obligation to its loyal and supportive customers. Statements on record, such as from Dudley and Ariel (both official representatives of LOGITECH) support this.

Yes, no one knows the future, but one thing i do know is that no company wants so many unhappy customers. LOGITECH wont let that happen.IMHO

garym
2012-11-17, 07:18
Excellent points and I totally agree. Because of the large numbers of consumers who have invested large amounts of money in these excellent LOGITECH products with expectations of longevity and functionality, I do not think LOGITECH would want the publicity from disgruntled consumers.

The number of squeezebox customers of logitech is so very tiny compared to their total customer base that I doubt Logitech cares about them one way or another. And longevity in today's computer hardware market is 2 years max. After that the assumption is throw away and replace. Logitech will make business decisions based on what their management thinks will maximize shareholder value. If they think that bad publicity will have an impact on their bottom line, they'll think about this. But again, squeezebox sales have been only a "footnote" to Logitech profits.

Ikabob
2012-11-17, 07:51
The number of squeezebox customers of logitech is so very tiny compared to their total customer base that I doubt Logitech cares about them one way or another. And longevity in today's computer hardware market is 2 years max. After that the assumption is throw away and replace. Logitech will make business decisions based on what their management thinks will maximize shareholder value. If they think that bad publicity will have an impact on their bottom line, they'll think about this. But again, squeezebox sales have been only a "footnote" to Logitech profits.

You're probably right,Gary. I definitely respect your opinion. The "2 year and then throw it away" part is hard for me to understand. It's true,IMO, that hardware becomes outdated in a short time (2 years), but the hardware is still functional for an indefinite period of time. I have computers over ten or more years old that are functional though lacking some newer features. Cellular phones still function after many years. My expectation of a product that is purchased especially a radio is that it will be functional for an extended period of time. I believe that intentionally terminating the functionality is uncharted territory. I do believe that LOGITECH will stand by us. Time will tell.

garym
2012-11-17, 07:55
You're probably right,Gary. I definitely respect your opinion. The "2 year and then throw it away" part is hard for me to understand. It's true,IMO, that hardware becomes outdated in a short time (2 years), but the hardware is still functional for an indefinite period of time. I have computers over ten or more years old that are functional though lacking some newer features. Cellular phones still function after many years. My expectation of a product that is purchased especially a radio is that it will be functional for an extended period of time. I believe that intentionally terminating the functionality is uncharted territory. I do believe that LOGITECH will stand by us. Time will tell.

I agree that the hardware can last forever. I have perfectly working radios from the 1930s, 40s, and 50s (I collect old radios). I expect my Squeezebox hardware to last many years as should you. And with LMS and a computer or NAS that can run LMS, the core functions can continue forever. So nothing worth worrying about. Things will work out I'm sure.

Jack Gilvey
2012-11-17, 16:14
I agree that the hardware can last forever. I have perfectly working radios from the 1930s, 40s, and 50s (I collect old radios). I expect my Squeezebox hardware to last many years as should you. And with LMS and a computer or NAS that can run LMS, the core functions can continue forever. So nothing worth worrying about. Things will work out I'm sure.

Yeah. While I don't believe mysb.com is going anywhere soon, the primary reason for my using a SB Touch over other solutions is the ability to stream bit-perfect, 24/96 (or greater) FLAC, etc. audio to my system from my server. It will continue to do that independent of mysb.com. This functionality won't be "terminated". This is why I had no hesitation purchasing a second one after its discontinuance (but before the price increases). I can always find something to stream MOG if I need to. ;)

menno
2012-11-22, 03:36
The number of squeezebox customers of logitech is so very tiny compared to their total customer base that I doubt Logitech cares about them one way or another. And longevity in today's computer hardware market is 2 years max. After that the assumption is throw away and replace. Logitech will make business decisions based on what their management thinks will maximize shareholder value. If they think that bad publicity will have an impact on their bottom line, they'll think about this. But again, squeezebox sales have been only a "footnote" to Logitech profits.

I'm just baffled that Logitech have not been able to make Squeezebox a massive success. We are all here because we know that Squeezebox is the best solution for our needs.

Yet I see a massive TV advertising campaign here in the UK by Sonos for their products, using well know musicians. It almost feels like they're rubbing salt into my wounds when I switch on my telly and see those ads!!

If it's profitable for Sonos shareholders, why not for Logitech shareholders when they have the better product?

Cheers,
Menno

ModelCitizen
2012-11-22, 04:38
Logitech bit off more than they could chew. They're basically a pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap box maker. They bought a geeky, buggy software based product which they wanted to quickly turn mass market. They got in over their heads. They missed huge potential even though it was staring them in the face. They were just the wrong company to buy this product... unfortunately for us.

castalla
2012-11-22, 04:57
I'm just baffled that Logitech have not been able to make Squeezebox a massive success. We are all here because we know that Squeezebox is the best solution for our needs.

Yet I see a massive TV advertising campaign here in the UK by Sonos for their products, using well know musicians. It almost feels like they're rubbing salt into my wounds when I switch on my telly and see those ads!!

If it's profitable for Sonos shareholders, why not for Logitech shareholders when they have the better product?

Cheers,
Menno

Probably lots of returns after Xmas!!!

tin
2012-11-22, 07:00
Logitech bit off more than they could chew. They're basically a pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap box maker. They bought a geeky, buggy software based product which they wanted to quickly turn mass market. They got in over their heads. They missed huge potential even though it was staring them in the face. They were just the wrong company to buy this product... unfortunately for us.

If this is true, which it might be, and the reason they EOLed squeezebox, then there is only one question:

WHY ON EARTH did they immediately announce UE radio, that uses the same hardware and, lets be frank, the same software?

That's the bit that makes no sense, dump and piss off what are extremely loyal users and scrap all their hardware, and yet continue with what is all but in relatively minor details the exact same product? If SB was really unworkable, I predict UE radio will continue to burn money then they'll close that down too.

Your point about bugs is extremely valid. I am at a loss as to why after so many years there are still glaring bugs in the code. Perhaps it's just that their software engineers are no good? In which case UE radio is not going to work either.

garym
2012-11-22, 07:18
I think their engineers are likely very good. But there is what, only one or two supporting the entire ue/SB product line?

toby10
2012-11-22, 07:40
If this is true, which it might be, and the reason they EOLed squeezebox, then there is only one question:

WHY ON EARTH did they immediately announce UE radio, that uses the same hardware and, lets be frank, the same software? ......

Because they believe the UE design will better fit their "plug & play" mass market business model.
Simpler setup, one server, less buggy software, etc... resulting in fewer customer service & support calls.

But this all comes at the expense of features, functions, customization, plugins, third party developer items, choice of servers, play back control points, fewer supported OS', no lagacy player support, limited player choices, internet only server connection required, etc.....

Gadgety1
2012-11-27, 02:22
Because they believe the UE design will better fit their "plug & play" mass market business model.
Simpler setup, one server, less buggy software, etc... resulting in fewer customer service & support calls.

But this all comes at the expense of features, functions, customization, plugins, third party developer items, choice of servers, play back control points, fewer supported OS', no lagacy player support, limited player choices, internet only server connection required, etc.....

Exactly. It' based on Logitech's market research (available on the internet if you search). The "high end" audiophile, music lover market, looking for value for money, is too small and not profitable enough. Logitech bought SB which had this market segment and wanted to, in classic business fashion, wanted to take it to other segments of the market, except it wasn't that easy to satisfy the core of the users, and the new audience simultaneously, and the core is too small to bring in dough. As usual in the market place, as in democracy, the majority wins out.

JJZolx
2012-11-27, 04:34
Exactly. It' based on Logitech's market research (available on the internet if you search). The "high end" audiophile, music lover market, looking for value for money, is too small and not profitable enough. Logitech bought SB which had this market segment and wanted to, in classic business fashion, wanted to take it to other segments of the market, except it wasn't that easy to satisfy the core of the users, and the new audience simultaneously, and the core is too small to bring in dough. As usual in the market place, as in democracy, the majority wins out.

The problem, IMO, is that Logitech had no idea what they were buying. The Squeezebox system is a client-server networked music player, heavily dependent on the quality of the network and on the reliability of the computer on which the server software is run. It started as a hobbyist system and it never really grew (or could grow) much beyond that. As a consumer product, it was a support nightmare from day one.

Ironically, although the audiophile market accounted for some of the Squeezebox's success and much of the buzz about the product, the system was too complex for most audiophiles. The typical audiophile wants a much simpler system for playback of audio files, without a network component. A lot of audiophiles that tried the Squeezebox hated it and its eccentricities and soon got rid of it. The Squeezebox made it in that market because it was an inexpensive system that gave a first taste of computer audio. It served that purpose for a while, but a large number of those users have moved on to the many other approaches and products that have been introduced more recently, the most common of which is simply a computer feeding a high quality USB DAC.

Waldo Pepper
2012-11-27, 06:11
I am an end of line consumer and so want to listen to my music collection and the radio. So what is UE?

I have the basic technical skills of setting up a network. I have a Touch & 3 SB radios, one radio only being purchased in the last week for my spare room as they are great once set up correctly.

I have taken much appreciated help from this forum as setting them up is certainly not straight forward. I have a few new questions but will be separate postings.

So my question is..Is my system going to be up and working for the next 5 years or so or am I going to be left with an expensive pile of electronic clocks that once worked as music and radio players once Logitech pull the plug on support & mysqueezebox.com?
Does Logitech's streaming format stick to a standard where I could use another streaming service?

Combined with the squeezbox app on my Android, it's a (near) perfect house music system. Why are they shooting themselves in the head with such a market leader?

WP

pippin
2012-11-27, 06:42
The problem, IMO, is that Logitech had no idea what they were buying. The Squeezebox system is a client-server networked music player, heavily dependent on the quality of the network and on the reliability of the computer on which the server software is run. It started as a hobbyist system and it never really grew (or could grow) much beyond that. As a consumer product, it was a support nightmare from day one.


While I agree with the observation, it did not necessarily have to be that way. The client/server architecture was a smart move when it was first introduced because it allowed to build a low cost system with a lot of capability and extensibility. There are no systems on the market that can do as much and I only know one other system that is similarly flexible in it's control capability (Sonos).

But it's now dated and no longer appropriate, the world has moved on, devices are now capable enough to support better, e.g. peer-to-peer based solutions that would also be more user friendly without relying as heavily on the server. But Logitech didn't move on. They more or less stopped development of the Squeezebox system three years ago, you simply can't _expect_ it to still be appropriate.

Now, it looks like they realized this mistake sometimes this year or so and started investing again but this time, it looks to me like they screwed it up with a "quick and dirty" approach.
Logitech seems to be one of these companies who dream of getting rich like Apple but aren't willing to do what Apple does. Logitech marketing: here's some news for you: Apple didn't invent the iPhone with three engineers in six months. They put legions and legions of designers, engineers and product managers in there until it was good enough to be launched. That product had been rumored about for years and the patents around it date from several years before the launch. They didn't do this the quick way. Nor were they the first ones to try, but they took the patience and investment to take it to a level where it became a - sorry for the bullshit bingo term - disruptive product.

Just analyzing a shortcoming and then looking for the quickest and cheapest way to get there and being happy with satisfying those three customers who have a shared interest in those 5 features which 80% of the users can agree on won't get you anywhere, and no, it's also not the same thing as focusing on those features 80% of your customers ask for.

I believe all of what we are seeing here is simply poor marketing. And since it's not the first time we are seeing it from Logitech (Google TV, anybody?) I don't believe we're going to see them succeed in the future, either.

Luckily for us, the Squeezeboxes are open enough and we here know enough about them that we don't need them, too.

DaveWr
2012-11-27, 08:39
While I agree with the observation, it did not necessarily have to be that way. The client/server architecture was a smart move when it was first introduced because it allowed to build a low cost system with a lot of capability and extensibility. There are no systems on the market that can do as much and I only know one other system that is similarly flexible in it's control capability (Sonos).

But it's now dated and no longer appropriate, the world has moved on, devices are now capable enough to support better, e.g. peer-to-peer based solutions that would also be more user friendly without relying as heavily on the server. But Logitech didn't move on. They more or less stopped development of the Squeezebox system three years ago, you simply can't _expect_ it to still be appropriate.

Now, it looks like they realized this mistake sometimes this year or so and started investing again but this time, it looks to me like they screwed it up with a "quick and dirty" approach.
Logitech seems to be one of these companies who dream of getting rich like Apple but aren't willing to do what Apple does. Logitech marketing: here's some news for you: Apple didn't invent the iPhone with three engineers in six months. They put legions and legions of designers, engineers and product managers in there until it was good enough to be launched. That product had been rumored about for years and the patents around it date from several years before the launch. They didn't do this the quick way. Nor were they the first ones to try, but they took the patience and investment to take it to a level where it became a - sorry for the bullshit bingo term - disruptive product.

Just analyzing a shortcoming and then looking for the quickest and cheapest way to get there and being happy with satisfying those three customers who have a shared interest in those 5 features which 80% of the users can agree on won't get you anywhere, and no, it's also not the same thing as focusing on those features 80% of your customers ask for.

I believe all of what we are seeing here is simply poor marketing. And since it's not the first time we are seeing it from Logitech (Google TV, anybody?) I don't believe we're going to see them succeed in the future, either.

Luckily for us, the Squeezeboxes are open enough and we here know enough about them that we don't need them, too.

+1 Masters of their own downfall....

erland
2012-11-27, 09:50
So my question is..Is my system going to be up and working for the next 5 years or so or am I going to be left with an expensive pile of electronic clocks that once worked as music and radio players once Logitech pull the plug on support & mysqueezebox.com?

My guess would be that if you want to use it for 5 years for local music you will probably be fine as long as you don't upgrade the computer, using it for internet radio might work but it could also stop working when/if Logitech decides to eventually shutdown mysqueezebox.com. My guess is that Logitech is probably going to make sure it works during the warranty period and maybe a bit longer after that. In 5 years I expect most of us will be using something else than a Squeezebox to stream our music, probably some hardware which doesn't exist yet, probably not made by Logitech. All official information from Logitech indicates that they have no plans to stop supporting LMS and mysqueezebox.com, but we all know it's just a matter of time until the economics doesn't match the requirements from the shareholders. UE Smart Radio is doomed at its current price range as a mass market product, people will realize they can get similar functionality cheaper from other manufacturers.

There is no immediate hurry to go and get something else, I would suggest that people continue to enjoy their Squeezebox for a while longer and wait and see how the market evolves, someone is probably going to fill the hole, it's just a matter of time.



Does Logitech's streaming format stick to a standard where I could use another streaming service?

I believe the default firmware provided by Logitech relies on being connected to LMS or mysqueezebox.com.
With custom or patched firmware, which would be a possibility for Radio and Touch, it's definitely possible to stream from third party sources without running LMS or being connected to mysqueezebox.com.
Future will tell if someone decides to take advantage of this possibility.

Dogberry2
2012-11-27, 12:46
It's a bummer the SB line has been dropped, but I'm not planning to jump ship and try some other product anytime soon. My various SBs still work, and I expect them to continue working for a long time to come. The hardware seems sound enough, and until it begins to break down and fail, I should have no problems. I'm mildly concerned about losing some Internet functionality one day (particularly Pandora and Sirius/XM) but since 95% of my listening is from my own collection via my local LMS server, I will still have that for the foreseeable future. With the money I've invested in SB devices, I can't see any reason to abandon them; I expect to get many more years of service out of them.

I have a commercial freezer in my garage that is nearly 30 years old. It has never failed, and never had any problems; it still works great. I doubt that particular model has been made for many years. But as long as it keeps working, I have no need to buy a new one, and I don't care whether it's been discontinued by the manufacturer. I'll use it as long as it keeps running.

amcluesent
2012-11-27, 13:47
I've always though the Slimdevices buy-out was the scheme of a Logitech VP who was then let-go, so there was no-one to fight the cause. After the Google TV epic fail, I expect 'streaming' was the kiss of death to careers in Logitech.

Logitech completely threw away everything they had. Loyal customers, growing recognition outside computer geeks (i.e. Stereophile cover) and the growing market for computer audio. Even if the core was niche, they could have developed the mass market from that base, how many times was a win32 binary of LMS discussed etc.

Sonos must be amazed that their main competitor self-destructed

d6jg
2012-11-27, 14:07
IMHO Logitech just don't know how to exploit the SB line's true potential. Why ? Because they are a hardware company. To reach mass market the high end capability offered by FLAC capable streaming needs to be built into some product by recognised hifi manufacturers. Instead you get Denon, Onkyo, Marantz etc developing kit to work with massively inferior DLNA. Clearly Logitech won't licence SB for use by these competitors - or will they?

maggior
2012-11-27, 19:31
Sonos must be amazed that their main competitor self-destructed

+1

Mnyb
2012-11-27, 22:33
Sonos must be amazed that their main competitor self-destructed

I'm also fascinated by this ,

I do recognise pippins ideas about that the product may need much more development .

But consider that Sonos has been pretty much the same for many years to ,so that niche should have been for the squeezeboxes.
By basically doing nothing but properly markets the product .
And then they could have 10 instead of 3 engineers fixing bugs ,but keeping the product what it is and still win in this niche .

Not the true iPod mass market , but good enough for Sonos they do make money out if don't they ?

Osamede
2012-11-28, 02:54
It gets worse though - the UE radio will be a bust. The audio quality you can get from a single average sounding radio speaker is not that great. Which leaves them with no market

Meanwhile, multi-use computing devices are catching up. I bought an Ipad Mini recently and tried it out as a bathroom "Squeezeplayer" using iPeng. You know what - in a bathroom it was no better or worse than an SB Radio. Bear in mind that there are Android tablets that can do the same and for the same price as an SB Radio/UE Radio. I didnt really dig the SB Radio until I experimented with a second one as a stereo pair - then you get some decent quality sound. But logitech has killed that functionality in the new product.

I dont see why anyone will buy these things. They cant even hold their own in the low end market.

The real opportunity Logitech had with Squeezebox was higher up in the audiophile market and with AV receivers. Basically an even better version of Airplay - and Logitech had all the pieces a long time ago. They blew it. Massively.

pippin
2012-11-28, 05:12
I didnt really dig the SB Radio until I experimented with a second one as a stereo pair - then you get some decent quality sound. But logitech has killed that functionality in the new product.


Actually _that_ is wrong. They even "promoted" the functionality by making it more accessible, it now has it's own menu item on the device itself (and the remote App) so that you don't have to go digging in the settings pages of the server or MySB anymore.

Ikabob
2012-11-28, 06:18
Pippin, I can see the UE potential, but without a Touch/SB3-like device....it cannot function for an audio system.

pippin
2012-11-28, 08:39
Oh, I fully agree. I believe with the current closed and limited approach it will not succeed even then.
I believe they fell prey to a fallacy assuming that if people tell them they use a certain feature 80% of the time they would be happy to ONLY have that feature if it's somewhat accessible. This is not true, most systems will fulfill these 80% requirements and people chose what to buy based on whether those features out of the remaining 20% that are still important to them will be supported.

sake23
2012-11-29, 03:51
Just aired my disappointment about the dropping of the squeezebox development / marketing to the man at the top of Logitech guessing his email address: Guerrino.DeLuca@logitech.com.
So far, the email has not bounced back... :-)

pippin
2012-11-29, 04:04
Today, corporate mail servers usually don't bounce back e-mails so to not help you guess e-mail addresses.

sake23
2012-11-29, 04:30
But Guerrino.DeLuca1234@logitech.com BOUNCED back!
"The error that the other server returned was: 550 550 Guerrino.DeLuca1234@logitech.com... No such user (state 13)."

erland
2012-11-29, 09:30
Just aired my disappointment about the dropping of the squeezebox development / marketing to the man at the top of Logitech guessing his email address:

Honestly, I think you will have better success to make a difference if you post it in public, official support forum, facebook, twitter or similar. Most companies are more afraid of bad publicity than a single user who complains to them via private mail.

maggior
2012-11-29, 11:47
Honestly, I think you will have better success to make a difference if you post it in public, official support forum, facebook, twitter or similar. Most companies are more afraid of bad publicity than a single user who complains to them via private mail.

This is the company that brought us the Revue for $250. I don't think they fear bad publicity :-).

Sorry, but I couldn't resist that dig.