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didjean
2012-09-28, 14:26
http://blog.logitech.com/2012/09/28/an-open-letter-to-squeezebox-fans/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LogitechBlog+%28BLogitech%29

sander
2012-09-28, 14:44
No info on the future of the squeezebox line and support there of, only a blurb about being able to use the ue radio in conjunction Squeezebox.

Paul Webster
2012-09-28, 14:46
Implies at they have woken up to the strength of feeling within the established user community - but doesn't tell us anything that we didn't know.
Anyway - it is a start.

yeomanspc
2012-09-28, 15:15
Well it's not only no news, but frankly a little insulting by its simplicity and transparency.

castalla
2012-09-28, 15:28
If it talks like a suit ..... then it's a director of products for Logitech UE.

ModelCitizen
2012-09-28, 15:41
Anodine marketing treat-them-as-fools placatory rubbish. All crap. The only thing of import he said was to recommended us to use the official Logitech forums. And this was only said so that in the future they can say 'we told the slim devices forum users that they should migrate before we shut the forums down'.

Be alert. Your country needs lerts.

Ikabob
2012-09-28, 16:20
Thank you so much for that clarification. It does relieve the concerns that I had about our music investment and the prospects of possibly losing the Squeezebox ecosystem in the future. I had faith that LOGITECH would, indeed,do the right thing and that LOGITECH would act in a professional, ethical, respectful, honorable and fair manner toward their loyal supportive customers. Yes, I value my Squeezebox ecosystem VERY much and now that you confirm that it will be here for good is very reassuring! Thank you.

LOGITECH has never shown me anything other than that they care about their product and ARE interested in keeping their loyal supporters satisfied and treating them FAIRLY. IMHO

epoch1970
2012-09-28, 16:51
Thanks to didjean for digging this out but frankly I wonder who voted this 5 stars??
The so called "letter" says absolutely nothing but the obvious.
(Go ahead and read it for yourself, at least it has the decency to be short)

pallfreeman
2012-09-28, 17:03
Hello Squeezebox Fans, I’m Ariel, director of products for Logitech UE, and I’d like to take a moment to provide some additional explanation about our transition from Logitech Squeezebox to Logitech UE Smart Radio. First, we want you to know that Logitech values you, and we will actively support the service in its current form,

So when will you "actively support the service" again? A huge improvement eagerly anticipated by many here. Let's rock'n'roll, Ariel, and really get this baby moving.

pippin
2012-09-28, 17:10
What could they actually say? There _IS_ no good answer to this, the only thing they can actually do is to _ACT_ in a way that reassures the customers but since - in this case - this involves the not-really-short-term-action of "keeping around MySB for another few years, delivering more updates for legacy hardware and keeping on fixing bugs" it will only show results in months or even years.

That's the problem with reputation and customer confidence, it can only be earned in the long term, you can't earn it with talk. Both Logitech and us here can't expect that.

But still I think it's a good sign that he did write because it _does_ carry at least one message: we hear you - and that means I would not care about where to voice opinions. Whether it's on the "official" forum or this one: if you care about your customers' opinions as a manager, you will search for it, you will not filter it out by whether it's coming in through "official" channels. And if you don't care, it doesn't matter anyway.

mps
2012-09-28, 17:12
No info on the future of the squeezebox line and support there of, only a blurb about being able to use the ue radio in conjunction Squeezebox.

They certainly claim "we will actively support the service in its current form." I think the question is whether you find that believable. For now, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and take it to mean they'll make at least some effort to keep the major streaming services supported on mysqueezebox. We'll just have to see

routehero
2012-09-28, 17:15
Anodine marketing treat-them-as-fools placatory rubbish. All crap. The only thing of import he said was to recommended us to use the official Logitech forums. And this was only said so that in the future they can say 'we told the slim devices forum users that they should migrate before we shut the forums down'.

Be alert. Your country needs lerts.

That's a bit pessimistic.

Rest assured, there are no plans to shut down the forums, wiki, bug tracker, git, etc.


They certainly claim "we will actively support the service in its current form." I think the question is whether you find that believable. For now, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and take it to mean they'll make at least some effort to keep the major streaming services supported on mysqueezebox. We'll just have to see

That certainly depends on your definition of "actively support".

For perspective, there are around 200 servers dedicated to mysqueezebox.com, split between the US and Europe.

Suffice to say, they do need TLC and they don't run on hope.

castalla
2012-09-28, 17:29
For perspective, there are around 200 servers dedicated to mysqueezebox.com, split between the US and Europe.

Suffice to say, they do need TLC and they don't run on hope.

That's an interesting piece of information. Thanks.

cncb
2012-09-28, 17:52
Thank you so much for that clarification. It does relieve the concerns that I had about our music investment and the prospects of possibly losing the Squeezebox ecosystem in the future.

Are you being sarcastic or did you read a different blog post? They committed to no time frame - they could be talking about only a few months out as far as we know...

Ikabob
2012-09-28, 18:36
Are you being sarcastic or did you read a different blog post? They committed to no time frame - they could be talking about only a few months out as far as we know...

Hello Squeezebox Fans,....
.
"First, we want you to know that Logitech values you, and we will actively support the service in its current form, so you can continue to enjoy the Squeezebox experience you love.
All of you who own a Logitech Squeezebox Radio will have the option to upgrade to the Logitech UE Smart Radio platform, and ...This upgrade is completely optional,.........."

No, I'm not being sarcastic.
Yes, I did read the same blog that you read. I guess I'm more of an optimist than you and when an official makes the above statement, I tend to believe that "they WILL continue the support". I believe that by continuing that support and the maintenance of mysb.com that it will be around for me and you to enjoy indefinitely. I think that the official has indicated that LOGITECH feels the responsibility to its loyal Squeezebox customers to be ACCOUNTABLE to their expectations and to uphold LOGITECH's obligations, otherwise would Ariel, the director of products, actually have gone on record by making the statement and putting it in writing. I guess I trust LOGITECH more than you do ,cncb.

LOGITECH is a very reputable company and I do not believe they want to injure their reputation by breaching their word to so many trusting consumers. They'd have a lot to lose credibility-wise in the future. So, I believe the director of products, an official representative of LOGITECH, who wrote the blog and I do believe that they are committed to keep our time and dollar investment intact. Imho

erland
2012-09-28, 22:13
http://blog.logitech.com/2012/09/28/an-open-letter-to-squeezebox-fans/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LogitechBlog+%28BLogitech%29

Ok, let's try if Logitech are serious, I posted a thread about activating the possibility to install third party applets/plugins in their official UE forum:
http://forums.logitech.com/t5/Logitech-UE/Open-UE-Smart-Radio-for-third-party-plugins-applets/td-p/894572

So if people think support for third party applets/plugins is important for you to consider switching to UE Smart Radio take the time and post a reply on the thread I started in the official forum and let's see if they really care.

Activating the third party plugin/applet support is something they could do very easily and on very short notice, so it's a way to see if they really care about feedback or if they are just trying to calm us down to avoid negative publicity around the UE Smart Radio platform. At the moment, Logitech has intentionally disabled the ability to install third party plugins/applets on the UE Smart Radio and the UE Music Library server.

We can't make they change their mind about Squeezeboxes but we are in the power to try to convince them to at least make the new UE solution extensible so they don't turn into another closed system restricted to the features Logitech wants to develop.

Mnyb
2012-09-29, 04:09
I did wright a lengthy comment but that is not visible ? maybe he did not like it .

I basically asked for real info like a time frame ?

bluegaspode
2012-09-29, 04:43
With high probability its moderated and takes some time before getting visible. On my Blog it can also take up to 24 hours to react, too much spamming otherwise

Mnyb
2012-09-29, 05:04
With high probability its moderated and takes some time before getting visible. On my Blog it can also take up to 24 hours to react, too much spamming otherwise

I saw that gah , now I already spammed it :-/ with two overlapping responses "awaiting moderation" .

gharris999
2012-09-29, 07:28
For perspective, there are around 200 servers dedicated to mysqueezebox.com, split between the US and Europe.

Suffice to say, they do need TLC and they don't run on hope.
200 servers? Isn't mysb.com on an Amazon cloud...and has been for some time?


TraceRoute mysqeezebox.com (23.23.210.22)
58 bytes from 23.23.210.22: time=1613 ms
1 0 0 192.168.0.1 router
2 0 0 192.168.2.1 zywall
3 1857 1857 10.0.128.1
4 1373 -484 10.246.20.17
5 * * timed out
6 1448 75 10.246.30.1
7 1512 64 10.246.100.2
8 1381 -131 10.246.110.2
9 863 -518 72.164.128.69 chy-edge-04.inet.qwest.net
10 1363 500 205.171.158.102 chy-core-02.inet.qwest.net
11 * * timed out
12 * * timed out
13 0 -1363 0.0.0.0 timed out
14 1415 1415 72.165.86.74
15 1470 55 205.251.245.21
16 1409 -61 205.251.245.41
17 * * timed out
18 * * timed out
19 * * timed out
20 1437 28 216.182.224.199
21 1401 -36 100.64.13.8
22 * * timed out
23 * * timed out
24 * * timed out
25 * * timed out
26 2106 705 23.23.210.22 ec2-23-23-210-22.compute-1.amazonaws.com

pippin
2012-09-29, 07:31
200 VMs on Amazon?

Mnyb
2012-09-29, 08:22
That's a bit pessimistic.

Rest assured, there are no plans to shut down the forums, wiki, bug tracker, git, etc.



That certainly depends on your definition of "actively support".

For perspective, there are around 200 servers dedicated to mysqueezebox.com, split between the US and Europe.

Suffice to say, they do need TLC and they don't run on hope.

Active support = for example continue to maintain existing functionality on mysqueezebox.com ,things like services changes all the time.
So just let a fully functional radio service sit there will break it shortly as the service provider will do some changes , so with current policy the servers may be up and running but most actual services offered will be broken eventually.
But Logitech probably interprets Active support = keep the servers running exactly as they are .

why I think this actual policy ? the LMA service (broken for 7 months ) is fixed on UESR.com but the solution is not backported to mysqueezebox.com this must be some decision to not do that . and it appears to be some whinging regarding other services to so it's starting to crumble right now .

gharris999
2012-09-29, 08:53
200 VMs on Amazon?
Yes, but no doubt there is a secure Logitech monitoring site, buried under a Swiss alp and accessible only by keycard, biometric scans and a challenge / response from the armed guards where you *have* to know today's password. Once inside (and after you've descended the 1000 meters down the mag-lev elevator to the war room) you'll see the 200 round-the-clock dedicated Logitech administrators, each one assigned to monitor a specific VM. Because the work is SO exacting, no one administrator is on duty longer than 2 hours at a time. The off-duty administrators are encouraged to utilize the the vast recreational facilities (including ping pong, on-going mahjong tournaments) to decompress, relax and prepare for their next shift. In order to provide the quality of service that www.mysqueezebox.com is famous for, more than 1000 administrators are present at the secret facility at any given time.

It's the VAST expense of providing this top-notch streaming service that explains why the mysqueezebox.com budget occupies more than 60% of Logitech's CEO's & CFO's time and why the mysqueezebox.com daily briefing is the *first* item on their agenda when they arrive at the office in the morning (on those days where they haven't already answered the dedicated mysqueezebox.com red phone at 2AM.)

Mnyb
2012-09-29, 09:10
Yes, but no doubt there is a secure Logitech monitoring site, buried under a Swiss alp and accessible only by keycard, biometric scans and a challenge / response from the armed guards where you *have* to know today's password. Once inside (and after you've descended the 1000 meters down the mag-lev elevator to the war room) you'll see the 200 round-the-clock dedicated Logitech administrators, each one assigned to monitor a specific VM. Because the work is SO exacting, no one administrator is on duty longer than 2 hours at a time. The off-duty administrators are encouraged to utilize the the vast recreational facilities (including ping pong, on-going mahjong tournaments) to decompress, relax and prepare for their next shift. In order to provide the quality of service that www.mysqueezebox.com is famous for, more than 1000 administrators are present at the secret facility at any given time.

It's the VAST expense of providing this top-notch streaming service that explains why the mysqueezebox.com budget occupies more than 60% of Logitech's CEO's & CFO's time and why the mysqueezebox.com daily briefing is the *first* item on their agenda when they arrive at the office in the morning (on those days where they haven't already answered the dedicated mysqueezebox.com red phone at 2AM.)

So the talk of Large Hadron Collider is a cover up :) I'm playing Portal 2 now what a coincidence (speaking of large cavernous hidden installations )

gharris999
2012-09-29, 09:29
So the talk of Large Hadron Collider is a cover up :)I would have thought that was patently obvious to everyone. Haven't you ever noticed that "Large Hadron Collider" is just an anagram for "Logi Hardcore All Nerd"?

routehero
2012-09-29, 12:37
Active support = for example continue to maintain existing functionality on mysqueezebox.com ,things like services changes all the time.
So just let a fully functional radio service sit there will break it shortly as the service provider will do some changes , so with current policy the servers may be up and running but most actual services offered will be broken eventually.
But Logitech probably interprets Active support = keep the servers running exactly as they are .

why I think this actual policy ? the LMA service (broken for 7 months ) is fixed on UESR.com but the solution is not backported to mysqueezebox.com this must be some decision to not do that . and it appears to be some whinging regarding other services to so it's starting to crumble right now .

An imagined policy is just that, imagined.

If you are having issues, I'd call in to the support team or make your voice heard at www.logitech.com/ithink.

routehero
2012-09-29, 12:38
Yes, but no doubt there is a secure Logitech monitoring site, buried under a Swiss alp and accessible only by keycard, biometric scans and a challenge / response from the armed guards where you *have* to know today's password. Once inside (and after you've descended the 1000 meters down the mag-lev elevator to the war room) you'll see the 200 round-the-clock dedicated Logitech administrators, each one assigned to monitor a specific VM. Because the work is SO exacting, no one administrator is on duty longer than 2 hours at a time. The off-duty administrators are encouraged to utilize the the vast recreational facilities (including ping pong, on-going mahjong tournaments) to decompress, relax and prepare for their next shift. In order to provide the quality of service that www.mysqueezebox.com is famous for, more than 1000 administrators are present at the secret facility at any given time.

It's the VAST expense of providing this top-notch streaming service that explains why the mysqueezebox.com budget occupies more than 60% of Logitech's CEO's & CFO's time and why the mysqueezebox.com daily briefing is the *first* item on their agenda when they arrive at the office in the morning (on those days where they haven't already answered the dedicated mysqueezebox.com red phone at 2AM.)

I'm dumbfounded that there aren't more Logitech employees engaging with this community when the responses are like this.

Mnyb
2012-09-29, 13:26
An imagined policy is just that, imagined.

If you are having issues, I'd call in to the support team or make your voice heard at www.logitech.com/ithink.

That issue is already taken care off

The LMA issue are in the bugzilla since >6 months unassigned >30 votes .

It is simply not possible that Logitech are unaware of that issue .
But I'll post at the suggested link anyway .

I'll be happy to be proven to imagine things I considerer me proven wrong when this issue is fixed .

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17939 with 31 votes
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17994 and a duplicate bug with 16 votes

Mnyb
2012-09-29, 13:32
An imagined policy is just that, imagined.

If you are having issues, I'd call in to the support team or make your voice heard at www.logitech.com/ithink.

That link does not work it is not possible to select the rigth product category and the right product ?

garym
2012-09-29, 13:37
An imagined policy is just that, imagined.

If you are having issues, I'd call in to the support team or make your voice heard at www.logitech.com/ithink.

Are you kidding? Wow! The Live Music Archive (LMA) app has been broken for over six months (and evidently the fix is simply editing the app contents to refer to "archive.org" rather than "www.archive.org"). The bug has long been confirmed by votes in bugs.slimdevices.com, the official bug reporting mechanism. And Logitech employees have confirmed that they know this is broken over at the official logitech forums in posts. And the problem has even been fixed for the UESmartRadio.

I just went to the www.logitech.com/ithink site to enter this information (yet again informing logitech of this issue). Interesting that there is no dropdown item that relates to audio, network music players, squeezebox players, UESmartRadio, etc. So I had to use "other" as the product category.

This is not the case of a random person whining on a forum about a (non) problem. This is a well documented but evidently very minor problem. You'd think we users were asking for the moon. I'm honestly not sure what else we users can do to address the broken LMA app short of camping out at Logitech headquarters in Switzerland. Logitech is well aware of the problem but we get no indication of if and when it will be fixed.

routehero
2012-09-29, 14:01
This is not the case of a random person whining on a forum about a (non) problem. This is a well documented but evidently very minor problem. You'd think we users were asking for the moon. I'm honestly not sure what else we users can do to address the broken LMA app short of camping out at Logitech headquarters in Switzerland. Logitech is well aware of the problem but we get no indication of if and when it will be fixed.

Logitech employs shy of 4000 people. Although you might imagine that "Logitech" knows about this problem, any sizeable bureaucracy requires constant badgering in order to have your message heard.

The frequency of your bug reports and targets are fairly important. The ithink program will feed in to people that are in different decision making trees than Bugzilla. The same is true when you feed in complaints through customer support; it's a different tree.

The number of users who post here and on Bugzilla is less than 0.001% of the number of SB units connected to mysb.com.

The more you can get your message out, the more likely you are to have some results. Especially when the complaints reach the top of the food chain.

Objects move downhill easier than uphill.

Mnyb
2012-09-29, 14:06
Are you kidding? Wow! The Live Music Archive (LMA) app has been broken for over six months (and evidently the fix is simply editing the app contents to refer to "archive.org" rather than "www.archive.org"). The bug has long been confirmed by votes in bugs.slimdevices.com, the official bug reporting mechanism. And Logitech employees have confirmed that they know this is broken over at the official logitech forums in posts. And the problem has even been fixed for the UESmartRadio.

I just went to the www.logitech.com/ithink site to enter this information (yet again informing logitech of this issue). Interesting that there is no dropdown item that relates to audio, network music players, squeezebox players, UESmartRadio, etc. So I had to use "other" as the product category.

This is not the case of a random person whining on a forum about a (non) problem. This is a well documented but evidently very minor problem. You'd think we users were asking for the moon. I'm honestly not sure what else we users can do to address the broken LMA app short of camping out at Logitech headquarters in Switzerland. Logitech is well aware of the problem but we get no indication of if and when it will be fixed.

Do you ski ? I haven’t for >20 odd years, time learn that again :) it's autumn now, in a couple of moths it's season

garym
2012-09-29, 14:12
Do you ski ? I haven’t for >20 odd years, time learn that again :) it's autumn now, in a couple of moths it's season

No,but may need to learn. On the other hand, old bones take a long time to heal.

garym
2012-09-29, 14:27
Logitech employs shy of 4000 people. Although you might imagine that "Logitech" knows about this problem, any sizeable bureaucracy requires constant badgering in order to have your message heard.

The frequency of your bug reports and targets are fairly important. The ithink program will feed in to people that are in different decision making trees than Bugzilla. The same is true when you feed in complaints through customer support; it's a different tree.

The number of users who post here and on Bugzilla is less than 0.001% of the number of SB units connected to mysb.com.

The more you can get your message out, the more likely you are to have some results. Especially when the complaints reach the top of the food chain.

Objects move downhill easier than uphill.

Well I've followed your suggestions. But I have to say it is disheartening to be told that the long-time official Logitech mechanism for reporting and tracking squeezebox bugs is merely something that may or may not get lost in a sea of 4,000 employees.

I understand you are only trying to help here and don't take this as a personal attack (it is more a comment on the apparent lack of controls in place at Logitech). I work in a complex organization with far more than 4,000 employees. If our answers to questions were along the lines of "sorry, we are big and don't have any way of following the protocols that we ourselves actually created" then some of those 4,000 would be replaced post haste.

Mnyb
2012-09-29, 14:40
Well I've followed your suggestions. But I have to say it is disheartening to be told that the long-time official Logitech mechanism for reporting and tracking squeezebox bugs is merely something that may or may not get lost in a sea of 4,000 employees.

I understand you are only trying to help here and don't take this as a personal attack (it is more a comment on the apparent lack of controls in place at Logitech). I work in a complex organization with far more than 4,000 employees. If our answers to questions were along the lines of "sorry, we are big and don't have any way of following the protocols that we ourselves actually created" then some of those 4,000 would be replaced post haste.

What category did you choose I could not figure anything that fitted the subject so I gave up .

The bugzilla mechanism is more well suited very granular choices , you can be very precise when filing your issue ?

This "think" function did it produce any email response with some kind of case number, can you log in to your case and follow up ?

garym
2012-09-29, 14:45
What category did you choose I could not figure anything that fitted the subject so I gave up .

The bugzilla mechanism is more well suited very granular choices , you can be very precise when filing your issue ?

This "think" function did it produce any email response with some kind of case number, can you log in to your case and follow up ?

Other or something like that. No email followup yet. I could describe the problem in the site with up to 500 characters, but mostly I had to answer typical marketing questions (how did you learn about our product or would you recommend to a friend).

gharris999
2012-09-29, 15:07
I'm dumbfounded that there aren't more Logitech employees engaging with this community when the responses are like this.Oops. Apparently, I hit a nerve. Sorry.

dasmueller
2012-09-29, 19:07
Oops. Apparently, I hit a nerve. Sorry.

So you tried to provide a bit of humor, no problem. Sometimes we could use more here. We are sometimes encouraged to use the official Logitech forums but unfortunately there do not seem to be many responses in that venue either. Perhaps because it's the wknd or maybe they are on holiday. What else can one do sometimes but vent.

JJZolx
2012-09-29, 21:58
For perspective, there are around 200 servers dedicated to mysqueezebox.com, split between the US and Europe.

Suffice to say, they do need TLC and they don't run on hope.

In light of their history of reliability, I'd say that's a given.

Mnyb
2012-09-29, 22:19
Humor is much better than the other response you can get when saying something wrong/silly or stupid.

Are routerhero completely unaware of the slow death the whole squeezebox ecosystem has been put trough for years ?

No aspect of the system had the proper maintanence for years . ( at least no aspect that can be directly observed by a user ).

Speaking of hitting nerves, a silly claim about how good the systems works , when it can be observed that's it's not.

And then someone responds with a joke instead being angry ? That's quite ok is it not.

Mnyb
2012-09-29, 23:12
Now the comments on the blog is adding up but none of mine :-/ oh well

erland
2012-09-30, 00:19
Now the comments on the blog is adding up but none of mine :-/ oh well

Maybe you said something they didn't like, or asked for something they couldn't provide, or maybe asked something complex so they don't want to publish your comment before they have discussed it on a management meeting.

As previously mentioned in the thread, I decided to do as recommended in the blog and posted some feedback in the official UE support forum.
I posted a thread about making it possible to install third party plugins/applets:
http://forums.logitech.com/t5/Logitech-UE/Open-UE-Smart-Radio-for-third-party-plugins-applets/td-p/894572

If people agree, take the time to post your thoughts in this thread in the official UE support forum and maybe we can convince them to allow third party developers enhance the UE Smart Radio system in same way as we have previously done with the Squeezebox. Mnyb, I've seen that you already my thread and posted a comment in it, thanks.

Mnyb
2012-09-30, 00:33
Maybe you said something they didn't like, or asked for something they couldn't provide, or maybe asked something complex so they don't want to publish your comment before they have discussed it on a management meeting.

As previously mentioned in the thread, I decided to do as recommended in the blog and posted some feedback in the official UE support forum.
I posted a thread about making it possible to install third party plugins/applets:
http://forums.logitech.com/t5/Logitech-UE/Open-UE-Smart-Radio-for-third-party-plugins-applets/td-p/894572

If people agree, take the time to post your thoughts in this thread in the official UE support forum and maybe we can convince them to allow third party developers enhance the UE Smart Radio system in same way as we have previously done with the Squeezebox. Mnyb, I've seen that you already my thread and posted a comment in it, thanks.

Yes that may be it . In one of the moderated responses i asked for specifics the thing that this blog-post deftly omits .
"
“actively support the service in its current form,”
<snip>
A time-frame for mysqueezebox.com please :
1 . X years ?
2. Indefinitely ?
3. Until there is only a few alive squeezeboxes left ?

"

1 and 3 would be interchangeable to some degree , if someone else takes on this niche we might have found another playback system in X years and thus there are no active squeezeboxes .
They could do this themselves by making the UE platform more attractive and possible to migrate to , then we all have UE boxes .
There is even a 4th way ,make UESR run the few remaining squeeboxes somehow after X years ,not much load but much goodwill the hardware will die eventually (or the user clutching his dear squeezebox in his cold hands )

I provide something in the share your thoughts sub-forum to this morning

gb115b
2012-09-30, 09:26
i guess sonos can have my money now then...

this really doesn't seem great.. i've seen the ecosystem slowly stagnate from great beginnings (having owned a slimp3, squeezebox 1, 2, 3 , boom, remote, and radio)... it;s a shame logitech bought the company...as they clearly didn't really know what to do with such a great company.

thank god the software is open souce...

GeeJay
2012-09-30, 11:01
i guess sonos can have my money now...

I wish this was a viable option for me. Unfortunately, Sonos lacks some key functionality that will require me to search for another alternative once my current system gives out. I'm hoping Logitech will react positively to Erland's request in the official forum (I provided my support, as he requested) so that I won't have to look too far.

konut
2012-09-30, 11:23
thank god the software is open souce...

Forgive my naiveté, but what is there to prevent some new company, say FatGagets, from developing new hardware using the open source software?

gharris999
2012-09-30, 12:14
Forgive my naiveté, but what is there to prevent some new company, say FatGagets, from developing new hardware using the open source software?Nothing, as far as I know, since the slim proto is pretty well documented:

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/SlimProto_TCP_protocol

..and that's essentially what has been done with the 3rd party iThing and Android players.

I would think, though, that anyone developing a new audio hardware ecosystem from scratch would more likely concentrate on AirPlay compatibility.

toby10
2012-09-30, 12:50
Forgive my naiveté, but what is there to prevent some new company, say FatGagets, from developing new hardware using the open source software?

Common sense and logic. ;)

Basing a new niche hardware device on someone else's failure (Logitech) in such a niche market is probably not a good idea. Other big names have tried the hardware side to music streaming already and failed miserably (Microsoft, Linksys, etc..). This becomes a compounded problem when that hardware mfr does not control the software distribution, development and fixes. It would be like making a hardware player that only worked with Twonky media server. The problem compounds even further if the hardware lacks authorized access to online streaming services which, in great part, drove sales for SB players.

On the off chance it were actually a financial success then any competitor can come along and make new hardware, like Logitech itself.

I just don't see a good business model to fit this niche market segment and make money. Though, granted, I'm not in the consumer electronics biz so maybe I'm missing some basic points and ideas to make it work. But it simply does not make sense to me.

garym
2012-09-30, 14:19
Common sense and logic. ;)

Basing a new niche hardware device on someone else's failure (Logitech) in such a niche market is probably not a good idea. Other big names have tried the hardware side to music streaming already and failed miserably (Microsoft, Linksys, etc..). This becomes a compounded problem when that hardware mfr does not control the software distribution, development and fixes. It would be like making a hardware player that only worked with Twonky media server. The problem compounds even further if the hardware lacks authorized access to online streaming services which, in great part, drove sales for SB players.

On the off chance it were actually a financial success then any competitor can come along and make new hardware, like Logitech itself.

I just don't see a good business model to fit this niche market segment and make money. Though, granted, I'm not in the consumer electronics biz so maybe I'm missing some basic points and ideas to make it work. But it simply does not make sense to me.


I agree. It certainly makes more sense to me to piggyback (with software) on other folk's hardware to use as SB replacements (e.g., iPeng and SqueezePad both do that for me). The connection from the iphone or ipad out to something else still leaves something to be desired for me (it won't connect easily to another DAC, etc.), but the idea is that Pippin didn't have to deal with creating the hardware seems the right approach to me. Of course DIYers can always do something with hardware on a small scale.

Labarum
2012-10-01, 01:08
I have posted:

” . . . we will actively support the [Squeezebox] service in its current form, so you can continue to enjoy the Squeezebox experience you love.”

Thank you for this assurance, Ariel.

Can you please tell us more?

What level of support will you offer and for how long?

Will you ensure the software infrastructure for which you are responsible continues to function in Windows 8 and against other OS developments?

Will you cooperate with the open source community to protect the Slim Devices Tradition and in due course deliver all code that you can into the public domain?

Will there be any new hardware devices with the ability to exploit all the flexibilities of the Logitech Media Server, or will future UE devices be made backwardly compatible, maybe with an advanced switch in the menu system?

Please understand how many music lovers with moderate or advanced computer skills have invested much cash and effort into using the Slim/Logitech devices; and how let down we feel by Logitech’s inability promote Squeezeboxes effectively against the likes of Apple’s streaming options, Sonus, or the even more expensive streamers from “Brand Name” HiFi manufacturers. The still-born Nexus streaming sphere illustrates how Logitech has failed to appreciate what a significant number of customers want. I am guessing Logitech does have members of staff that understand well what I am saying. Please listen to them.

cliveb
2012-10-01, 01:10
Common sense and logic. ;)

Basing a new niche hardware device on someone else's failure (Logitech) in such a niche market is probably not a good idea. Other big names have tried the hardware side to music streaming already and failed miserably (Microsoft, Linksys, etc..). This becomes a compounded problem when that hardware mfr does not control the software distribution, development and fixes.
The Squeezebox vision started out as a niche idea aimed at a small dedicated user base. My personal view is that it should have stayed that way. A small comany like Slim Devices could survive on that model, but it is wholly inappropriate for a big corporation like Logitech. Therefore as you rightly say, it makes no sense for a big player to try and replace the Logitech hardware.

BUT... with everything open source, there is no reason why a hobbyist community cannot come together to build new players from commodity parts. I have just bought a Raspberry Pi and am experimenting with it. If even I can get it running Squeezeslave (through its admittedly not-very-HiFi analogue output) in a couple of hours (which was frankly quite easy), then I am hopeful that it can be coaxed into sending digital audio to a USB DAC. If Squeezeslave itself can then be tweaked to support hi-res, report its MAC address as the actual MAC address of the Pi, and any timing issues with multiplayer sync resolved, we have an effective replacement for the hardware players. Ralphy would be a key player in making this work.

ralphy
2012-10-01, 04:07
Ralphy would be a key player in making this work.

If you search the forums you'll discover that I won't be making any such changes to squeezeslave.

I'd suggest you look at the SqueezePlay port for RPI instead.

cncb
2012-10-01, 06:19
A Raspberry Pi dedicated to running a full-screen version of Squeezeplay with digital audio output seems almost perfect...

MeSue
2012-10-02, 09:30
LOGITECH is a very reputable company and I do not believe they want to injure their reputation by breaching their word to so many trusting consumers. They'd have a lot to lose credibility-wise in the future. So, I believe the director of products, an official representative of LOGITECH, who wrote the blog and I do believe that they are committed to keep our time and dollar investment intact. Imho

This comment reminded me of the Logitech NuLOOQ Navigator that was discontinued several years ago:
http://graphicssoft.about.com/b/2009/02/13/logitech-nulooq-navigator-design-controller.htm

So Logitech does have a history of doing this.

This is something from the Logitech forum thread about the NuLOOQ, but it seems appropriate here:

Logitech builds cool and well constructed hardware, but if the device relies on software stay away - the products that depend on code eventually fall behind the curve and Logitech does not seem to have the resources or consistent coding practices to keep up fixing it, so they loose interest in the product, probably because it has ceased to generate the hot sales numbers it did when first released (partly due to complaints from increasingly disgruntled users?) and finally cut their losses. What frustrates people is that the products remain on sale with no indication of the decling support except found by those who came to this forum and did their homework.
http://forums.logitech.com/t5/Design-Controllers-and/NuLooq-Navigator-in-CS4/m-p/305697#M582

erland
2012-10-02, 09:32
It seems like the some more blog comments now have been moderated, at least a few more is now visible including some answers.

There wasn't much news, but a few things were clarified:
- They "actively" plan to support mysqueezebox.com for the "foreseeable future", so people who are worried it will be shutdown in 6 months can probably stop worry now. They also mention that they plan to fix some bugs, for example bugs that stops streaming services like Pandora from working.
- They will not provide an upgrade path for the Touch or any other Squeezebox except for Squeezebox Radio. Hopefully this means they have an UE product without built-in speakers in their roadmap, if they don't, the UE Smart Radio line is more or less doomed at its current price level.
- Most importantly, for the first time since 2009 when Sean left someone in the management actually seems to read AND respond to the feedback posted on the blog, at least some of the responses are posted in the name of the director of the new UE products.

However, the next step for Logitech is now to show if they are really committed to support Squeezebox users and make the new UE product line a success or if the answers are just empty words.

JJZolx
2012-10-02, 09:38
Logitech builds cool and well constructed hardware, but if the device relies on software stay away - the products that depend on code eventually fall behind the curve and Logitech does not seem to have the resources or consistent coding practices to keep up fixing it, so they loose interest in the product, probably because it has ceased to generate the hot sales numbers it did when first released (partly due to complaints from increasingly disgruntled users?) and finally cut their losses. What frustrates people is that the products remain on sale with no indication of the decling support except found by those who came to this forum and did their homework.

I've always been under the impression that Logitech produces software for their commodity hardware devices only grudgingly. Even their mouse software often has problems.

Their entire company has been sliced and diced and reorganized, and managers hired, fired and reassigned so many times in the past few years that it's little wonder they have no consistency and an industry-wide reputation for a lack of reliability.

JJZolx
2012-10-02, 09:42
However, the next step for Logitech is now to show if they are really committed to support Squeezebox users and make the new UE product line a success or if the answers are just empty words.

"Next step"? How so? What does Logitech gain from continuing to support Squeezebox? Financially, nothing. $0.

Beyond keeping mysb.com afloat, what are you expecting in terms of support? An updated server that addresses the many hundreds of valid bugs on file? Repairs of $2000 products that are out of warranty?

epoch1970
2012-10-02, 10:13
They will not provide an upgrade path for the Touch or any other Squeezebox except for Squeezebox Radio. Hopefully this means they have an UE product without built-in speakers in their roadmap, if they don't, the UE Smart Radio line is more or less doomed at its current price level.
A UE radio without speakers is called a bluetooth-capable smartphone. I doubt they want to try the audio-video combo receiver any time soon, and the swift demise of google's Q doesn't vote in favor of an Internet-only hifi-class receiver either.
I wouldn't bet the next player in the UE family, if any, is hardware based.

azinck3
2012-10-02, 10:27
A UE radio without speakers is called a bluetooth-capable smartphone. I doubt they want to try the audio-video combo receiver any time soon, and the swift demise of google's Q doesn't vote in favor of an Internet-only hifi-class receiver either.
I wouldn't bet the next player in the UE family, if any, is hardware based.

Having an always-connected, easily available audio source is a very distinct product from a bluetooth-capable smartphone. Key differentiators of the squeezebox (and potentially UE) line:


Device is always available and connected. If your kid wants to listen to something they don't need a smartphone. Or if you're listening and want to walk to another part of the house for a while without interrupting the audio you can do so easily.
Flexible synchronization options for whole-house audio
Optimized browsing/control interface with multiple control options (IR remote, physical buttons, web, CLI, etc.) and easy integration with automated systems
Can provide higher-quality audio (higher sample rates, etc.) than any existing smartphone devices. To be honest, this is not something I particularly care about as I'm already well past the point of diminishing returns, but there are many people who do.
Enormous storage capacity (not an issue if you only use cloud-based services, but there are plenty of folks who still have local music)

And this is entirely aside from the unique library management features the LMS software brings to the table.

erland
2012-10-02, 10:36
"Next step"? How so? What does Logitech gain from continuing to support Squeezebox? Financially, nothing. $0.

Beyond keeping mysb.com afloat, what are you expecting in terms of support? An updated server that addresses the many hundreds of valid bugs on file? Repairs of $2000 products that are out of warranty?

Based on the responses, I would expect a bug correction now and then, maybe a bit less active than what we have seen during the last 12 months (after the Revue shutdown).
Logitech's gain, except for goodwill, is to keep Squeezebox working until they have a realistic alternative with the "new" UE Smart Radio platform, and then make all Squeezebox users purchase a UE product instead.

But as I said, they will have to show that they are serious through their actions, as long as it's only words it doesn't mean anything.

JJZolx
2012-10-02, 10:40
Based on the responses, I would expect a bug correction now and then, maybe a bit less active than what we have seen during the last 12 months (after the Revue shutdown).

It couldn't get much less active.

Face it. It's dead.

erland
2012-10-02, 10:44
It couldn't get much less active.

Face it. It's dead.

It answers when I ping it, so something must be still alive :-)

pallfreeman
2012-10-02, 11:07
This is something from the Logitech forum thread about the NuLOOQ, but it seems appropriate here:

http://forums.logitech.com/t5/Design-Controllers-and/NuLooq-Navigator-in-CS4/m-p/305697#M582

The last post in that thread is November 2011. Did Logitech ever release the "source code" (drivers, I presume)?

pssc
2012-10-02, 11:08
A Raspberry Pi dedicated to running a full-screen version of Squeezeplay with digital audio output seems almost perfect...

I am doing my best seem to be mostly alsa diver issues being the main stoppers that said I have had overs two hours of perfect audio out...(doh jinxed it just messed up) its just messes up some
of the time... external sound cards though also seem to have similar issues atm too.

Phill.

epoch1970
2012-10-02, 14:55
Humor is much better than the other response you can get when saying something wrong/silly or stupid.
Are routerhero completely unaware of the slow death the whole squeezebox ecosystem has been put trough for years ?…
It took some time before I decided whether to let go or react on this exchange (as a whole, not particularly Mnyb's answer).

Hail routehero (although your choice of words/judgement may have been poor), for participating in this forum, still caring for us SB users.
Hail the Bablefish boy and Andy if he's still around.

These are the guys, if they don't get the sack, if UE is a success, who will go *out of their way* to slip a little continuity work on the SBS platform. The corporation may be faceless && faithless, but people are not.

(sorry for the apologetic moment. @Mnyb: absolutely no harm intended.)

MeSue
2012-10-02, 17:50
The last post in that thread is November 2011. Did Logitech ever release the "source code" (drivers, I presume)?

Not as far as I know.

GeeJay
2012-10-02, 19:31
It seems like the some more blog comments now have been moderated, at least a few more is now visible including some answers.

There wasn't much news, but a few things were clarified:
....

- They will not provide an upgrade path for the Touch or any other Squeezebox except for Squeezebox Radio. Hopefully this means they have an UE product without built-in speakers in their roadmap, if they don't, the UE Smart Radio line is more or less doomed at its current price level.
- Most importantly, for the first time since 2009 when Sean left someone in the management actually seems to read AND respond to the feedback posted on the blog, at least some of the responses are posted in the name of the director of the new UE products.

....

I did find it interesting that in his response to my comment re: the need for a product offering that speaks to the Touch/Classic/Duet user, Ariel said that while they won't comment on what's in the pipeline, they are working on products that they believe are "compelling". That may mean absolutely nothing, but if he really paid attention to what I was saying, then perhaps there is something in the works that might be worthy of our consideration.

pippin
2012-10-02, 21:34
Well, do we seriously believe they build up all of the new infrastructure just for a re-branded radio?

dsdreamer
2012-10-02, 22:20
Well, do we seriously believe they build up all of the new infrastructure just for a re-branded radio?

It is not such a big investment for them in these days of virtual servers and CDNs. They could be testing the market for a simplified (reduced functionality) device before taking the decision bring any other devices to the market. If the radio sold well enough to convince them not to entirely kill the SB line a few years ago, then the temptation to validate their concept using essentially the same device is understandable.

majones
2012-10-03, 02:44
Logitech have fully supported the online capabilities of Wilife security cameras since they replaced them with the incompatible Alert system 2 years ago. My guess is that they'll take the approach with Squeezebox and UE. In which case, you should have no worries.

pallfreeman
2012-10-03, 03:19
Not as far as I know.

Thanks. Let's hope they do better with LMS and the software players.

DaveWr
2012-10-03, 03:38
Thanks. Let's hope they do better with LMS and the software players.

Is that to finally ensure they have given all their commercial value away.

What a business, software players on a free Internet service, with a free standalone server. And you people wonder why it's not going to continue!

pallfreeman
2012-10-03, 04:10
Is that to finally ensure they have given all their commercial value away.

That's one way of looking at it; but it's their choice. Personally I can't see the point of selling a combined hardware/software product then keeping the software to yourself when you stop producing the hardware. I must be a communist.


What a business, software players on a free Internet service, with a free standalone server. And you people wonder why it's not going to continue!

The subject of subscriptions has come up on several occasions, but never really went anywhere.

bwaldron
2012-10-03, 10:40
Well, do we seriously believe they build up all of the new infrastructure just for a re-branded radio?

This is Logitech, so I actually don't find it hard to believe that.

JJZolx
2012-10-03, 10:49
Well, do we seriously believe they build up all of the new infrastructure just for a re-branded radio?

I expect they'll be coming out with a much cheaper, non-battery radio-like player. Someone recently mentioned that they've gone back and are trying to finally get the bloody thing to function half-way reliably as an alarm clock, so I'd expect a device that looks and works better as a bedside clock/radio.

pallfreeman
2012-10-03, 11:40
I'd expect a device that looks and works better as a bedside clock/radio.

Oh, great. Another Chumby. I can't wait.

gregklanderman
2012-10-03, 11:58
>>>>> On October 3, 2012 JJZolx <JJZolx.5jvelc (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

> radio-like player. Someone recently mentioned that they've gone back and
> are trying to finally get the bloody thing to function half-way reliably
> as an alarm clock, so I'd expect a device that looks and works better as
> a bedside clock/radio.

I love my boom as an alarm clock, only big issue is the assumption in
the alarm UI design that there are never days which are exceptions to
my normal schedule, but in fact there are often multiple per week.

Greg

azinck3
2012-10-03, 12:20
>>>>> On October 3, 2012 JJZolx <JJZolx.5jvelc (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

> radio-like player. Someone recently mentioned that they've gone back and
> are trying to finally get the bloody thing to function half-way reliably
> as an alarm clock, so I'd expect a device that looks and works better as
> a bedside clock/radio.

I love my boom as an alarm clock, only big issue is the assumption in
the alarm UI design that there are never days which are exceptions to
my normal schedule, but in fact there are often multiple per week.

Greg

I'm curious what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? Being able to schedule multiple alarms and target specific days of the week is very powerful. Squeezebox devices are, by far, the most flexible alarm devices I've ever used.

I use a Boom as an alarm clock and love it (FWIW, it's been very reliable for me but I'm running on a local instance of LMS and not attempting to WOL).

Mnyb
2012-10-03, 13:45
I'm curious what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? Being able to schedule multiple alarms and target specific days of the week is very powerful. Squeezebox devices are, by far, the most flexible alarm devices I've ever used.

I use a Boom as an alarm clock and love it (FWIW, it's been very reliable for me but I'm running on a local instance of LMS and not attempting to WOL).

Boom works fine as alarm clock with WOL :) I wake to my own files btw .

Boom is actually more server dependent and should be worse ,but radio is worse in practice .

gregklanderman
2012-10-03, 14:39
>>>>> On October 3, 2012 azinck3 <azinck3.5jviuo (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

>> I love my boom as an alarm clock, only big issue is the assumption in
>> the alarm UI design that there are never days which are exceptions to
>> my normal schedule, but in fact there are often multiple per week.

> I'm curious what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?

Certainly I love being able to have alarms for different days of the
week, etc. But if for example tomorrow I need to wake extra early
because I have an early meeting, how do you do that? I can edit the
existing alarm that is scheduled for tomorrow, but then I have to
remember to revert that change tomorrow night. I'd really like an
"Override alarm for tomorrow" in the menu so I can change the alarm
time for just the following day and which does not mess with my
regularly scheduled alarms. Ideally, when entering that menu, it
would default to the override if already set, and otherwise the
regularly scheduled alarm time.

In the same vein, but lower impact, it would be nice to have a
vacation mode where you can say "I'm going away for N days", so you
don't have to remember to turn your alarms back on when you finally
arrive home after midnight from countless airline delays.

Greg

azinck3
2012-10-03, 15:06
>>>>> On October 3, 2012 azinck3 <azinck3.5jviuo (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

>> I love my boom as an alarm clock, only big issue is the assumption in
>> the alarm UI design that there are never days which are exceptions to
>> my normal schedule, but in fact there are often multiple per week.

> I'm curious what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?

Certainly I love being able to have alarms for different days of the
week, etc. But if for example tomorrow I need to wake extra early
because I have an early meeting, how do you do that? I can edit the
existing alarm that is scheduled for tomorrow, but then I have to
remember to revert that change tomorrow night. I'd really like an
"Override alarm for tomorrow" in the menu so I can change the alarm
time for just the following day and which does not mess with my
regularly scheduled alarms. Ideally, when entering that menu, it
would default to the override if already set, and otherwise the
regularly scheduled alarm time.

In the same vein, but lower impact, it would be nice to have a
vacation mode where you can say "I'm going away for N days", so you
don't have to remember to turn your alarms back on when you finally
arrive home after midnight from countless airline delays.

Greg

Thanks for the details. Yeah, I've had some of the same thoughts myself but haven't totally sorted through in my mind what the best interface might be. I can imagine some very powerful functionality, but have a hard time imagining a simple enough interface to actually use it. FWIW, I usually don't edit any of my "regular" alarms, but rather just have an "extra" alarm sitting around that I edit for these purposes.

So my current procedure to do an "override" of the next day's alarms is:
Disable my regular alarm
Edit the "extra" alarm's time to match my desired wake-up time for the next day
Enable the "extra" alarm (which is set to not repeat, so it will only apply for one day)

Then, the next night before I go to bed I only have to re-enable my regular alarm for everything to be back to normal. Could be better but it's not too bad.

Another quick comment: you know you can hit the snooze button to see the time of the next scheduled alarm? I always hit this before going to bed as a quick sanity check.

gregklanderman
2012-10-03, 16:03
>>>>> On October 3, 2012 azinck3 <azinck3.5jvqjb (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the details. Yeah, I've had some of the same thoughts myself
> but haven't totally sorted through in my mind what the best interface
> might be. I can imagine some very powerful functionality, but have a
> hard time imagining a simple enough interface to actually use it.

right, the key is to have a simple solution for at most a few common
temporary alarm change use cases.

> FWIW,
> I usually don't edit any of my "regular" alarms, but rather just have an
> "extra" alarm sitting around that I edit for these purposes.

> So my current procedure to do an "override" of the next day's alarms is:

> Disable my regular alarm
> Edit the "extra" alarm's time to match my desired wake-up time for the
> next day
> Enable the "extra" alarm (which is set to not repeat, so it will only
> apply for one day)

> Then, the next night before I go to bed I only have to re-enable my
> regular alarm for everything to be back to normal. Could be better but
> it's not too bad.

yeah, that works but it's not very elegant..

> Another quick comment: you know you can hit the snooze button to see the
> time of the next scheduled alarm? I always hit this before going to bed
> as a quick sanity check.

very cool, I didn't realize that, I'll check it out tonight. so I
guess I'd propose that if you held the snooze button when the player
was off, you'd be able to edit that time, and have it effect only the
next day.

Greg

AndreE
2012-10-04, 02:22
Money, money, money... - Nothing actually new – at least Logitech openly talks with the community. Very much appreciated!

Hosting our requests for internet radio requires some computer power and a big one. It does not matter where servers are: in amazon or somewhere else – this is just expensive.
Products like Duet, Touch, and complete palette of classical SlimDevices – these all do not generate (enough?) revenue to keep it up and running.
This was clear a mistake to keep "central server" in the concept from the day 1.

What was good – to go for IPO or in this particular case for acquisition.
I truly appreciate whole SlimDevice team as great visionary engineers and businessmen! Well Done ! I truly appreciate it.

I was not expecting Logitech committing anything for our community and our devices - this would economically not wise.
Even a source code keeps quite some Know-how, which is a key. I would not be surprised if Logitech will get some patents to keep it protected – at least I would do it.

I personally like comment "Mnyb | September 28th, 2012 at 9:24 pm" as correctly pointing issues out.

"Me too" stream has the same infrastructure issue inherited in the business model - all that devices will follow the same path: moderate sales and short live. It is only matter of time. All reasons were already well listed in this forum.

The good news is: all that new Logitech iRadio devises will be rather emotional purchases with short living time with no regret, and will be dumped by owners much quicker keeping Logitech infrastructure burden significantly lower.

We might see great success this Christmas season, or silent sunset afterwards.

I am not going to join the pessimistic stream about Duet and whole abandoned camp, rather see weak business reasons to keep huge infrastructure with no revenue generation up and running – it does not make much sense economically, at least to me.
Logitech is a public company – there is no any reason to blame them for acquiring startups and discontinuing ideas, which do not take mass market.

As I’ve already mentioned in one of my previous posts:
It would be nice if Logitech creates ultimately "LAST" release with no dependency on central Logitech server, with possibility to connect external internet radio typing their IP in the configuration – at least this might keep the community happy.

castalla
2012-10-04, 02:37
Surely, the simplest internet radio access could be provide by an 'independent' Tunein plugin - one which doesn't reference the central servers? I can't fathom why Tunein, as is, needs to contact mysb.com ....

pssc
2012-10-04, 02:56
Surely, the simplest internet radio access could be provide by an 'independent' Tunein plugin - one which doesn't reference the central servers? I can't fathom why Tunein, as is, needs to contact mysb.com ....

Yes thing seems to be the biggest thing in the code I have looked over, mostly the rest of lms is complete enough or the newer squeezeplay based HW could be given the App to stand alone...

Phill.

Mnyb
2012-10-04, 11:14
*sigh* I really must rub those guys the wrong way , my latest comment is still awaiting moderation ?

why is this question a problem:

"
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Thanks for clarifications .

Can the rationale for ending the squeezebox system as we know it be explained ?

I can understand why you try this new UE system it has it’s applications ( even if I don’t believe it’s the rigth thing for this market ).

But why does this exclude further development of the squeezebox line up ?
They are not mutually exclusive and are not attractive to the same customers ,but they share a common hardware and software platform ?
As I see it you could get 2 for 1 one here .

There is really no other options ( yet ) for a typical squeezebox power user ,you had this niche for yourself ,no competition at all and I still thinks you missed the majority of possible customers due to mismanagement of the product historically .but the potential is still there.

*"

garym
2012-10-04, 11:21
*sigh* I really must rub those guys the wrong way , my latest comment is still awaiting moderation ?
*"

I have a comment awaiting moderation since 9/29. I think it is lost at this point, sometimes I see it there (with the awaiting moderation note) and other times I don't even see that. If this is how they handle a blog post with comments, no wonder so many things are broken at logitech.

routehero
2012-10-04, 11:55
*sigh* I really must rub those guys the wrong way , my latest comment is still awaiting moderation ?

why is this question a problem:

"
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Thanks for clarifications .

Can the rationale for ending the squeezebox system as we know it be explained ?

I can understand why you try this new UE system it has it’s applications ( even if I don’t believe it’s the rigth thing for this market ).

But why does this exclude further development of the squeezebox line up ?
They are not mutually exclusive and are not attractive to the same customers ,but they share a common hardware and software platform ?
As I see it you could get 2 for 1 one here .

There is really no other options ( yet ) for a typical squeezebox power user ,you had this niche for yourself ,no competition at all and I still thinks you missed the majority of possible customers due to mismanagement of the product historically .but the potential is still there.

*"

Just to reiterate a point, the number of users who interact here on the Squeezebox forums is about 0.01% - 0.001% of the actual, live, connected-to-mysqueezebox.com population. Even that population is only a percentage of all Squeezebox out there -- there are many users who simply use LMS locally and never connect.

If you want your voice to be heard, you have to be persistent and attack with all avenues at your disposal. The blog is only one such avenue.

You can imagine for the people who are not reading these forums, that they are generally unaware of the issues that you have with the new strategy.

erland
2012-10-04, 13:32
*sigh* I really must rub those guys the wrong way

They can't answer your questions without exposing internal company information.
If they provide an answer, they won't provide the details you want, so there is no point waiting for an answer.

My suggestion would instead be to try to explain to them what improvements/changes they can make to the new UE products to better fit the needs of previous Squeezebox owners. If we give them ideas/thoughts on how they can improve their products, it's a lot bigger chance they will actually listen and do something. Posting complains or require more information about the reasons behind shutdown Squeezeboxes isn't going to get us anywhere.

HeadBanger
2012-10-06, 02:30
My comment on their blog is still awaiting moderation too :-(

Labarum
2012-10-06, 02:35
My comment on their blog is still awaiting moderation too :-(

And mine. I didn't really expect an answer, but used the post as an opportunity to express my concerns to them.

AndreE
2012-10-07, 01:34
Posting complains or require more information about the reasons behind shutdown Squeezeboxes isn't going to get us anywhere.
fully agree, there is only one way to get further support - to give Logitech a hint about something they possibly missed in their planning.

MichelB
2012-10-30, 13:04
Hello,

I own 2 logitech radio's and run my own server. I'm very dissappointed in logitech for taking this decission. Another person (50+ in age) even bought a logitech squeezebox radio after seeing mine in action (synchronized) during a visit.

I don't completely understand why they're doing this technically:

1) They're killing off a complete eco-system. A lot of nasses provide easy-to-use packages/upgrades for their current server. Could it be even easier? Why didn't they team up/promote it more?
2) They're making a lot of customers unhappy. Customers that are buying multiple of their devices and recommending it to their friends, ... It isn't so easy to win back a unsatisfied customer as winning a new one. I suppose they took this into account ...
3) They could have just made the existing interfaces easier to use and making a lot of existing customers happier, so that they could certainly recommend it to their friends (free advertising for their "new" line). In other words, improve what they're having and building upon that, without dissatisfying/making it complicated for existing longtime users.
4) For the "advanced users", people are losing a lot of functionality/power. I don't see myself buying the new devices. I just bough 2 new devices (touch and extra radio) so that I can keep using my current system. I hope that the community will keep thriving.
5) I noticed the lack of investment of logitech into the software the latest year (at least). When a free android-app feels easier to use and has more features than the provided one, you know who to trust ... I think that Logitech buying this line was good for promoting these devices (but not by virtue of "logitech" apparently), but apparently nothing for the long run. I need to have local control myself. Why on earth use an internet-connection when it isn't needed. Yes, make it optional for easy configuration, ... but mandatory? It is a point-of-failure (unreliable connections, ...), more traffic, ...
6) I have the same impression with their harmony-devices. Who is running Logitech? Certainly not customer-support/satisfaction. They stopped a few years ago apparently.

Michel

RobTheGob
2012-11-09, 14:11
I'm extremely disappointed with this decision.

I've got five Squeezebox devices and am personally responsible for people purchasing at least nine others. Those people never would have bought those devices based on what they saw in store - they bought them after I showed how powerful the system was. I'm just glad I didn't talk more people into buying them...

I hope I can keep them going in the future - but it will likely be a PITA at some point.

bobscomp
2012-11-11, 09:38
did not logitech buy this product from the original producer, and should not someone buy this back from them. I will offer my Management services and experience to anyone willing to help with the cash to do this.

this is clearly a unique product, Sonos does not even come close to the quality and pricepoint of thes audiophile level product, yes the software has some problems but we can make improvements to it. I think that the large installed base offers a wonderful opportunity to anyone interested in quality audio distribution.

1 touch
1 SB 3
1 Transporter
1 Radio

Robert J. Richter
North Reading, MA

pablolie
2012-11-12, 06:59
To me, the only important thing is that Logitech releases an open source version of the code that allows the devices to run without mysqueezebox.com. The user community can probably take it from there.

For that matter - where is the source code for LMS? I have looked online and it isn't easy to find :)

Mnyb
2012-11-12, 07:05
To me, the only important thing is that Logitech releases an open source version of the code that allows the devices to run without mysqueezebox.com. The user community can probably take it from there.

For that matter - where is the source code for LMS? I have looked online and it isn't easy to find :)

https://github.com/Logitech/slimserver

pippin
2012-11-12, 07:51
did not logitech buy this product from the original producer, and should not someone buy this back from them. I will offer my Management services and experience to anyone willing to help with the cash to do this.


Logitech still USES all the technology behind it in the UE Smart Radio, so all they could sell is the name. And they didn't even want to sell when they had decided to close down the product line. I know, I asked.


To me, the only important thing is that Logitech releases an open source version of the code that allows the devices to run without mysqueezebox.com. The user community can probably take it from there.


The code is all open Source. The stuff that is not open source is graphics/logos/text.
You can't expect all the 3rd-party interfaces to be open source. As of my experience, all of these require proprietary interfaces to 3rd party APIs (after all, that's what they are about) so you can't open-source them.
Ridiculous as it is: some of the services, even the ones whose business is selling subscriptions, require you to sign an NDA to only get their API docs.

pablolie
2012-11-12, 10:02
..
The code is all open Source. The stuff that is not open source is graphics/logos/text.
You can't expect all the 3rd-party interfaces to be open source. As of my experience, all of these require proprietary interfaces to 3rd party APIs (after all, that's what they are about) so you can't open-source them.
Ridiculous as it is: some of the services, even the ones whose business is selling subscriptions, require you to sign an NDA to only get their API docs.

I have not taken a look at the LMS PERL code -and I am not a PERL programmer, but it reads quite well as a rule. It's not the 3rd party APIs that would seem the problem to me, though - the whole point about an API is that it hides inner complexity, i.e. to stream Pandora I don't need to do what they do internally, but rather merely invoke their published methods in my program. In LMS, it seems to me, all 3rd party APIs are optional, I can disable them within the Applications/Plugin options. It is the mandatory entry of a user account and password at mysqueezebox.com, required for installation and operation, that seems the liability when it comes to future proofing the LMS.

I am not the least interested in how Logitech implements mysqueezebox.com - all I am saying is that, as a last service to Squeeezebox customers, Logitech should publish an open source version of LMS that runs in total autonomy within customers' home networks, blissfully unaware and independent of mysqueeezebox.com. The latter should be an optional application, like Pandora or others. That way a lot of the paranoia about the future-proof nature of our Squeezebox investment would be gone.

azinck3
2012-11-12, 10:22
I have not taken a look at the LMS PERL code -and I am not a PERL programmer, but it reads quite well as a rule. It's not the 3rd party APIs that would seem the problem to me, though - the whole point about an API is that it hides inner complexity, i.e. to stream Pandora I don't need to do what they do internally, but rather merely invoke their published methods in my program. In LMS, it seems to me, all 3rd party APIs are optional, I can disable them within the Applications/Plugin options. It is the mandatory entry of a user account and password at mysqueezebox.com, required for installation and operation, that seems the liability when it comes to future proofing the LMS.

I am not the least interested in how Logitech implements mysqueezebox.com - all I am saying is that, as a last service to Squeeezebox customers, Logitech should publish an open source version of LMS that runs in total autonomy within customers' home networks, blissfully unaware and independent of mysqueeezebox.com. The latter should be an optional application, like Pandora or others. That way a lot of the paranoia about the future-proof nature of our Squeezebox investment would be gone.

That's essentially what LMS *is*. A username/password on mysqueezebox.com is not required.

garym
2012-11-12, 11:04
That's essentially what LMS *is*. A username/password on mysqueezebox.com is not required.

true. But from what I've read around here recently, with a setup of the duet after a factory reset, there seems to be no way to get past the setup without the mysb.com connection. Don't know if this is in fact required, but has been reported here. But for classics, sb3, transporter, boom, radio, and touch, one can set these up without a mysb.com account or connection by simply skipping this part of setup.

So LMS can work "forever" with regard to playing local files and connecting to nonsubscription internet radio.

pippin
2012-11-12, 11:20
Not sure about the controller but the Duet Receiver can definitely be setup without MySB, e.g. using Net::UDAP or SqueezeConfig

pippin
2012-11-12, 11:27
but rather merely invoke their published methods in my program.

That's the API.
And most services, e.g. your mentioned Pandora, regard this as a trade secret and do NOT publish it but require you to keep it confidential.


In LMS, it seems to me, all 3rd party APIs are optional, I can disable them within the Applications/Plugin options. It is the mandatory entry of a user account and password at mysqueezebox.com, required for installation and operation, that seems the liability when it comes to future proofing the LMS.

Yes, but I believe that should be possible to get around.
It was originally introduced because the firmware they uploaded in the factory wasn't a working one (it went to the factory a long time - in case of the Touch more than a year - before the first release firmware was ready) so they needed a reliable way to obtain a working one hence the mandatory "call home".


I am not the least interested in how Logitech implements mysqueezebox.com - all I am saying is that, as a last service to Squeeezebox customers, Logitech should publish an open source version of LMS that runs in total autonomy within customers' home networks, blissfully unaware and independent of mysqueeezebox.com.
LMS does so even now. You can run LMS completely without ever registering with MySB (it asks for it but you can skip that). It's the new player models that require MySB. And it's in their built-in root firmware, you can't get it out of there, no matter what they release now. You can add a firmware that doesn't need it (and that would be simple because SqueezePlay is open source, too), but once somebody does a factory reset, the SB will want to call home. That will be so until the end of the SB's life, AFAIK you can't patch it away.

garym
2012-11-12, 12:54
It's the new player models that require MySB. And it's in their built-in root firmware, you can't get it out of there, no matter what they release now. You can add a firmware that doesn't need it (and that would be simple because SqueezePlay is open source, too), but once somebody does a factory reset, the SB will want to call home. That will be so until the end of the SB's life, AFAIK you can't patch it away.

Now I'm a bit confused. I thought with a TOUCH and RADIO, for example, it asks for mysb.com info, but one can swipe left (or something) to skip this step and still use such devices connected to one's local LMS. Are you suggesting that one can't use these newer players after a factory reset if there is no mysb.com?

Mnyb
2012-11-12, 13:34
Not sure about the controller but the Duet Receiver can definitely be setup without MySB, e.g. using Net::UDAP or SqueezeConfig

No problem I recently tried this with my controller ( and documented in another tread ) I made it work in several,different ways .
( the short story ,it's must exist a player but it can be itself ).

pippin
2012-11-12, 13:42
Now I'm a bit confused. I thought with a TOUCH and RADIO, for example, it asks for mysb.com info, but one can swipe left (or something) to skip this step and still use such devices connected to one's local LMS. Are you suggesting that one can't use these newer players after a factory reset if there is no mysb.com?

Does that work after a factory reset? Have to try try it out.

Mnyb
2012-11-12, 13:52
Does that work after a factory reset? Have to try try it out.

FYI tried that with a controller it worked .

pippin
2012-11-12, 13:54
Then: what's the problem?
Just new, uninitialized devices?

garym
2012-11-12, 13:59
Then: what's the problem?
Just new, uninitialized devices?

if this is true (regarding issues with new, uninitialzed devices), then the recommendation some make to setup their "spares" in the box with mysb.com, etc. and then put away is a good suggestion.

Mnyb
2012-11-12, 14:11
if this is true (regarding issues with new, uninitialzed devices), then the recommendation some make to setup their "spares" in the box with mysb.com, etc. and then put away is a good suggestion.

Even then I don't think there really is difference vs a factory reset device .
What happens is when you actually try to connect an already registered device is that *mysb.com* ask if you wan't to reasociate it with an existing account it does this due that it recognises the mac adress ?
The player is fairly brainwashed after a factory reset the setup wizard seems the same as when it was new ( for that fw version ).

But it migth not be a bad idea to do a setup anyway if the device has old fw , there have been fw version with problems with the setup !!( duet ,controller ) So then you get an opurtunity to flash it with the latest fw .
Saving you the further hustle of bringing an SD card to do fw upgrade to later fw before tryingnto complete the setup.

garym
2012-11-12, 14:12
Even then I don't think there really is difference vs a factory reset device .
What happens is when you actually try to connect an already registered device is that *mysb.com* ask if you wan't to reasociate it with an existing account it does this due that it recognises the mac adress ?
The player is fairly brainwashed after a factory reset the setup wizard seems the same as when it was new ( for that fw version ).

But it migth not be a bad idea to do a setup anyway if the device has old fw , there have been fw version with problems with the setup !!( duet ,controller ) So then you get an opurtunity to flash it with the latest fw .
Saving you the further hustle of bringing an SD card to do fw upgrade to later fw before tryingnto complete the setup.

yes, I have several spares and I've already registered them and updated firmware.

pablolie
2012-11-12, 23:25
That's essentially what LMS *is*. A username/password on mysqueezebox.com is not required.

I dispute that - the install will not proceed without the mysqueezebox.com user-pwd info.

pippin
2012-11-12, 23:44
I dispute that - the install will not proceed without the mysqueezebox.com user-pwd info.

Now what? Everybody else up there in this thread claims to the opposite with people saying they have tried it. Did you actually try the left swipe to get around that or is this just that you want to keep spreading FUD?

cliveb
2012-11-13, 02:02
I've NEVER registered on mysb.com, and had no problems setting up Transporter, SB2, SB3, Duet, Controllers and Raspberry Pi+Squeezeslave. I can't comment on setting up a Touch, Radio or Boom - never owned any of those.

Mind you, I run SBS 7.6.1. If later releases of LMS *do* require connection to mysb.com, then the solution is clear - grab yourself an earlier release.

gharris999
2012-11-13, 12:19
I dispute that - the install will not proceed without the mysqueezebox.com user-pwd info.
I managed to set up and update two out of the three SBTouches that I recently acquired without using any access to mysb.com. I unplugged my broadband modem for the whole install process just to keep myself honest. See:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?96209-Setting-up-a-Touch-without-connecting-to-mysb-com&p=717247&viewfull=1#post717247

nekomatic
2012-11-16, 05:21
I don't know about hardware players because I don't have any, but I've installed LMS 7.7.2 without needing to have a mysqueezebox login (I don't have one of those either).

reinholdk
2012-11-17, 03:07
I also successfully updated the FW of my spare Touch and Radio *without* registering them to mysb.com. On the Touch the 'left swipe' didn't work to abort registration during the initial setup, but - as gharris999 mentioned - disconnecting the WAN line from the broadband modem finally let the Touch give up asking for registration.

If I remember correctly, the 'left swipe' (home button?) worked on the Radio.

Running LMS 7.7.2.