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View Full Version : Would you pay for LMS - Subscription or One-Time?



yeomanspc
2012-09-02, 03:03
I've seen references to this in other posts (Erland), but nothing direct, so I wondered..

To my mind, whereas I don't fully understand the logic behind Logitech's actions, I do understand that something had to change. With low cost Android and iDevice players able to hang off LMS (and just about anything else), Logitech had lost the lock-in and the opportunity to sell a lot more devices.

Software is hugely profitable so why not sell LMS either via an annual fee, or as a one-time license including a commitment to support for x years? New players could come with 2 years subscription. There is clearly demand for players out there (the channel is drying up rapidly). It's always seemed dumb to me that SBS/LMS was free and increasingly so of late. A lot of people resent paying for software but I don't see the issue, and if enough of us are prepared to pay for LMS then it could still survive and make Logitech some money.

There are plenty of subscription models that they could implement too - even down to charging a few dollars a year for each player (or emulated player) that is attached to MSB.com (thus protecting my investment in older technology and giving them a regular income to keep MSB.com alive).

Mnyb
2012-09-02, 03:15
I've seen references to this in other posts (Erland), but nothing direct, so I wondered..

To my mind, whereas I don't fully understand the logic behind Logitech's actions, I do understand that something had to change. With low cost Android and iDevice players able to hang off LMS (and just about anything else), Logitech had lost the lock-in and the opportunity to sell a lot more devices.

Software is hugely profitable so why not sell LMS either via an annual fee, or as a one-time license including a commitment to support for x years? New players could come with 2 years subscription. There is clearly demand for players out there (the channel is drying up rapidly). It's always seemed dumb to me that SBS/LMS was free and increasingly so of late. A lot of people resent paying for software but I don't see the issue, and if enough of us are prepared to pay for LMS then it could still survive and make Logitech some money.

There are plenty of subscription models that they could implement too - even down to charging a few dollars a year for each player (or emulated player) that is attached to MSB.com (thus protecting my investment in older technology and giving them a regular income to keep MSB.com alive).

Well "Yes" but then I would have much higher demands of that it is actually working as advertised and better control/information regarding privacy issues .
And that it would be the s.o.t.a off the streaming business and add new services asap as they exist, not as now lag for years when something new is up , say a new service each month until we are back on top and then as they naturally occur ?

[EDIT] what i mean this kind of services is usually "free" (but paid in another way ) if direct payment is required you got no choice than to be the very best if you want custommers .

erland
2012-09-02, 03:44
I asked this before at end of 2010:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?83986-Would-you-be-willing-to-pay-for-Squeezebox-Server

Of course, people might think differently now when Logitech has stopped producing devices named Squeezebox, but I thought I'd post the link since it might be interesting to see what people thought almost 2 years ago.

Mnyb
2012-09-02, 03:51
I asked this before at end of 2010:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?83986-Would-you-be-willing-to-pay-for-Squeezebox-Server

Of course, people might think differently now when Logitech has stopped producing devices named Squeezebox, but I thought I'd post the link since it might be interesting to see what people thought almost 2 years ago.

Yes Logitechs latest move is game changing , one must reconsider a lot of things . A lot of things can happen in a couple of years right now I'm in "wait and see" mode won't do anything re my squeezeboxes for now...

firedog
2012-09-02, 04:09
If I could be assured someone would just keep the basic features working longtime.

Cut-Throat
2012-09-02, 05:25
I asked this before at end of 2010:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?83986-Would-you-be-willing-to-pay-for-Squeezebox-Server

Of course, people might think differently now when Logitech has stopped producing devices named Squeezebox, but I thought I'd post the link since it might be interesting to see what people thought almost 2 years ago.

Yes, I definitely would pay the $12 a year to keep the SBS running. My friends have paid for your Trackstat as well.

jmschnur
2012-09-02, 06:18
Sure. Logical step as we go on.


J

jo-wie
2012-09-02, 08:26
I would pay for it. I like to keep Rhapsody and other music services.

DrFiles47
2012-09-02, 08:49
I would be more than willing to pay a yearly fee to keep using the service. Five to Ten dollars a month seems more than fair price. With 8TB of music I have few options.




Transporter: 3 Squeezebox's

GeeJay
2012-09-02, 10:41
Without hesitation: yes.

I suspect some of the enterprising engineers among us would find a way to make the software work with other devices after SBs finally start giving out. Heck, the same day Logitech made its announcement concerning UE succeeding SB, another firm introduced products based on Squeezebox. Makes me hopeful that LMS can have a life beyond SB.

wom
2012-09-02, 10:47
A yearly fee of not more than 12 dollars seems reasonable if some development is being done.
@DrFiles47: Up to 10 dollars a month is insane, there you could afford 1 or 2 decent subscriptions to online music services serving millions of tracks :)

gruntwolla
2012-09-02, 11:34
I asked this before at end of 2010:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?83986-Would-you-be-willing-to-pay-for-Squeezebox-Server

Of course, people might think differently now when Logitech has stopped producing devices named Squeezebox, but I thought I'd post the link since it might be interesting to see what people thought almost 2 years ago.

I said yes to this back then. With the lack of marketing by Logitech for the SB line it seemed highly probable that this could be a route worth exploring. Unfortunately I have no programming knowledge whatsoever to do anything about it. There are some very capable people on these forums though.......

Would be good to get some kind of heads up if somebody is considering something like this.

Trev

GeeJay
2012-09-02, 11:40
I said yes to this back then. With the lack of marketing by Logitech for the SB line it seemed highly probable that this could be a route worth exploring. Unfortunately I have no programming knowledge whatsoever to do anything about it. There are some very capable people on these forums though.......

Would be good to get some kind of heads up if somebody is considering something like this.

Trev

I imagine most folks want to wait a little while to at least see what the UE software can support. After all, it hasn't even been a week yet.

gruntwolla
2012-09-02, 13:01
I imagine most folks want to wait a little while to at least see what the UE software can support. After all, it hasn't even been a week yet.

Fair comment.

Cut-Throat
2012-09-02, 14:03
A yearly fee of not more than 12 dollars seems reasonable if some development is being done.
@DrFiles47: Up to 10 dollars a month is insane, there you could afford 1 or 2 decent subscriptions to online music services serving millions of tracks :)

I subscribe to MOG which has over 15 million tracks......But I want to run it via LMS, without LMS the interface is pretty lame.

SBT2010
2012-09-03, 08:40
A yearly fee of not more than 12 dollars seems reasonable if some development is being done.
@DrFiles47: Up to 10 dollars a month is insane, there you could afford 1 or 2 decent subscriptions to online music services serving millions of tracks :)

Some thoughts:

Yes, I would totally agree any monthly charge (unless it's $1.00) is a no go for me. No more than $12.00/year or a one time fee might be o.k. IMO. If something like this was implemented I feel the price of current hardware would have to be MUCH lower than the current retail prices. I feel that the initial cost of hardware justifies no server charges. For example, if the Touch was continued & retail prices remained the same & their became some software fee the Touch would have to be upgraded (improved PSU, improved outputs, more outputs?, improved screen?, etc.) to handle ALL bit & sample rates & possibly have the ability to have easy hardware upgradability (instant App availability as soon as they hit the market amongst other things, etc.) if improved components become available (e.g. DAC, output modules, etc.) - like the Schiit DAC philosophy. If the Touch continued to sale as is in its current configurations & there was a server charge than the retail price IMO should be cut (possibly as much as 50%). People have paid a premium for the hardware to have supported server software.

sherington
2012-09-03, 08:45
.. to keep the whole thing alice & well. Streaming radio is not yet an issue in South Africa - but in principle, I would love to see someone with a bit more foresight & the interests of the system at heart keep it all up & running. Well worth a small annual fee to help in that regard

Andrew

simbo
2012-09-03, 08:48
*IF* it comes to a situation where up-front funding is needed to get LMS maintained post-Logitech, perhaps there should be a Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/) fund going?

adamdea
2012-09-03, 08:56
I would pay $12 pa

SBT2010
2012-09-03, 09:00
*IF* it comes to a situation where up-front funding is needed to get LMS maintained post-Logitech, perhaps there should be a Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/) fund going?

+ 1. Plus a fund or in tandem with a Squeezeplay fund!

nervoteso
2012-09-03, 10:44
yes i would pay to make lms keep working including all the online services

mortslim
2012-09-03, 12:34
all the online services

Maybe a more realistic approach is to appeal to the profit incentive of ONE online service to take over. Say, ask Rhapsody if it is interested in managing mysqueezebox.com in return for it being the EXCLUSIVE online service?

If Rhapsody calculates that it can keep and grow more subscriptions than its costs of maintaining mysqueezebox.com, then Rhapsody might be interested.

In fact, Logitech should consider a partnership with Rhapsody before throwing the baby out with the bathwater (whatever that means).

castalla
2012-09-03, 12:41
Maybe a more realistic approach is to appeal to the profit incentive of ONE online service to take over. Say, ask Rhapsody if it is interested in managing mysqueezebox.com in return for it being the EXCLUSIVE online service?

If Rhapsody calculates that it can keep and grow more subscriptions than its costs of maintaining mysqueezebox.com, then Rhapsody might be interested.

In fact, Logitech should consider a partnership with Rhapsody before throwing the baby out with the bathwater (whatever that means).


Why Rapsody? Guess because you use that. I don't, so I would be totally against it. It's a bad business model.

simbo
2012-09-03, 12:48
Why Rapsody? Guess because you use that. I don't, so I would be totally against it. It's a bad business model.
I think that was just an example. As much as I'm against the idea of my SB being tied to a particular service, I think mortslim is being a realist and speculating on financially viable options.

castalla
2012-09-03, 13:17
Idealist or not, you'd never get agreement on just which service should get exclusivity. Also, goes against the trend - all recent streaming devices depend on a choice of services. In fact, imho, Logitech is way ahead of any other services. They wouldn't sell any more devices if they were tied to just one service.

In fact, I doubt that selling devices on the basis of a sub. system would prove popular either, certainly not outside the US where there's a fierce culture of nothing comes for free - in Europe there's less enthusiasm for paying for something twice - once through taxes or endess adverts, and twice through a subscription.

They could try selling their devices in Europe at cheaper prices - the same radio is 112 GBP vs. a dollar equivalent of 92 GBP.

In Spain the cost is 167 euros vs. a dollar equivalent of 116 euros.

They could also spend some money on advertising!

kc5f
2012-09-03, 14:31
I'd be glad to pay. I'm paying $3/month to last.fm just so I can listen to it over my Squeezeboxes, already. If I lose all access to music services, I've lost all value of my boxes. I don't have thousands of CD's ripped and ready to listen to via LMS, and I don't want to dedicate a PC to leave on full-time, especially if I still wouldn't be able to access last.fm, Slacker, Pandora and others.

(It really seems funny to me to read here how many users have thousands of CD's ripped, but then they aren't willing to pay less than the cost of one CD per year to support the service. Odd priorities!)

pallfreeman
2012-09-03, 15:53
They could also spend some money on advertising!

Where? What?

UE is an also-ran, much like the Revue.

castalla
2012-09-03, 16:42
I don't agree - there's a large potential market across Europe. People just don't know about internet radio and streaming.

Most just struggle on with scratchy sound from their netbooks, etc.

I just gave an older Reciva radio to a friend - she was amazed at what was available (and the Recivas are pretty restricted compared to SB, and much more geeky to set up and maintain!).

As I've mentioned before - the key factor is the price. European prices are anything between 10-30% higher than the US prices. Add in no marketing and you're dead in the water ....

sander
2012-09-03, 20:26
I'd be willing to pay for ongoing development related to downloading the latest version for various amounts of time. I.e. xxx$ for a year to download the latest version and it keeps working (just like lms) if you stop.
As I see it Squeeze really caters to 2 types of users, those who have large music collections and audiophiles who care about high end digital files. Hopefully more work could be done to improve that experience. Just my opinion but chasing after the services won't work.

pallfreeman
2012-09-04, 01:09
I don't agree - there's a large potential market across Europe. People just don't know about internet radio and streaming.

And Logitech are going to educate them about all this and drum up enough enthusiasm to make the UE a must-have killer appliance? With no advertising and no brand recognition? I can't see that happening.

In the UK there are loads of "digital radio" devices available. Aunt Fanny will be buying one from another manufacturer because of the way it looks.

castalla
2012-09-04, 01:24
And Logitech are going to educate them about all this and drum up enough enthusiasm to make the UE a must-have killer appliance? With no advertising and no brand recognition? I can't see that happening.

In the UK there are loads of "digital radio" devices available. Aunt Fanny will be buying one from another manufacturer because of the way it looks.

The available internet radios are mostly ugly design and have poor screen ergonomics - eg. 2 line scrolling & monochrome.
And they are always going to be a niche market.

The Logitech homepage for users, either SB or UE, is one of the best thought out user portals - try some of the others and you'll see what I mean.

The UE won't be a killer device - that's not the nature of the beast! But put a UE up against a Reciva in any store display & I'd bet customers would go for the UE. Get the Euro pice down below 100 GBP or 120 Euro and they are much more likely to sell.

JohnB
2012-09-04, 02:32
I would definitely be willing to subscribe on either an annual or monthly basis.

The problem would be setting up a "formal" group willing to maintain LMS whilst finding a structure that people felt comfortable with, which gave some assurance that the subscriptions would be properly used and which didn't dissolve into multi-forked versions of LMS as various programmers decided to pursue their own pet projects.

pallfreeman
2012-09-04, 03:39
The available internet radios are mostly ugly design and have poor screen ergonomics - eg. 2 line scrolling & monochrome.

I suppose it's all down to taste. I just Googled, and the Roberts Stream 83i was my first hit. IMHO, that looks better than the Logitech offerings.

And where's the brushed-aluminium cabinet to match the toaster? The fake teak for the parlour? :)


The Logitech homepage for users, either SB or UE, is one of the best thought out user portals - try some of the others and you'll see what I mean.

Perhaps, but will that compensate for lack of advertising/marketing/support/vision out in the real world?


The UE won't be a killer device - that's not the nature of the beast! But put a UE up against a Reciva in any store display & I'd bet customers would go for the UE.

The UE Smart Radio looks almost the same as the SBR. If your assertion is true, would it not also apply to the SBR?

Too many questions and not enough answers!

castalla
2012-09-04, 07:24
The key could be 'coloured' cases! The old Reciva Vistron came in Black, White and Pink. people went mad for the pink one - never understood that myself!

erland
2012-09-04, 08:23
The problem would be setting up a "formal" group willing to maintain LMS whilst finding a structure that people felt comfortable with, which gave some assurance that the subscriptions would be properly used and which didn't dissolve into multi-forked versions of LMS as various programmers decided to pursue their own pet projects.

Yes, that's the challenge and that's also why I think we shouldn't rush into anything at the moment, if everyone starts to create their own fork already now in panic we are going to end up in a much more confusing and unsure future than the one we currently have.

JohnB
2012-09-04, 09:55
Yes, that's the challenge and that's also why I think we shouldn't rush into anything at the moment, if everyone starts to create their own fork already now in panic we are going to end up in a much more confusing and unsure future than the one we currently have.

+1

yeomanspc
2012-09-04, 11:05
Yes, that's the challenge and that's also why I think we shouldn't rush into anything at the moment, if everyone starts to create their own fork already now in panic we are going to end up in a much more confusing and unsure future than the one we currently have.

I agree Erland, but my reason to ask the question was to see if others feel it is worth paying for LMS and thus send a signal to either Logitech or other developers that there is a compromise here without burying LMS or the old SB's and maybe a more positive way forward for all.

On the rush comment, with the swift removal of anything SB by Logitech (it seemed in a flash) - I think they are the ones who have been in a badly thought-out rush. What reaction did they expect!

We have no choice but to wait and see.

Labarum
2012-09-04, 11:21
We have no choice but to wait and see.

And hope they are watching and listening?

pallfreeman
2012-09-04, 11:58
And hope they are watching and listening?

It would make a refreshing change.

SBT2010
2012-09-07, 09:48
I agree Erland, but my reason to ask the question was to see if others feel it is worth paying for LMS and thus send a signal to either Logitech or other developers that there is a compromise here without burying LMS or the old SB's and maybe a more positive way forward for all.

On the rush comment, with the swift removal of anything SB by Logitech (it seemed in a flash) - I think they are the ones who have been in a badly thought-out rush. What reaction did they expect!

We have no choice but to wait and see.

+1 totally agree with comments. Believe folks are being pro-active and thinking of options/solutions for the future if it comes to that and attempting to dialogue with Logictech to let them know how much we appreciate the SB line & LMS.