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jimzak
2012-08-31, 13:26
I've read through several threads and like many others, I have a few extra SB units. I'm not about to ditch my current system.

However, I would be interested in the alternatives that are out there for hi-fi networked music aside from Sonos.

I'll start out with the following:

Olive
http://www.olive.us/

Popcorn Hour
http://www.popcornhour.com/onlinestore/

Yamaha Musiccast2
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/musiccast2/index.asp

Pioneer N-50
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/Audio-Components/Hi-Fi+Audio/N-50

Cambridge Audio Sonata NP30
http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=604&Title=NP30%20Network%20Music%20Player

iPeng on iPad or iPod + Cambrige Audio iD100 Digital Dock for iPad & iPhone
http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=605&Title=iD100%20Digital%20Dock%20for%20iPad%20&%20iPhone

I think this is a good start. I haven't begun to analyze the pros and cons of all these systems. I am sure there are many other alternatives.

Grumpy Bob
2012-08-31, 13:40
I would be very interested in experiences with the Cambridge Audio iD100 dock, particularly as regards iPeng output. I have tried USB connection from a first generation iPad to a Cambridge Audio DACmagic 100 and the iPad complained that too much power was being requested (or something like that).

Robert

jimzak
2012-08-31, 13:51
I would be very interested in experiences with the Cambridge Audio iD100 dock, particularly as regards iPeng output. I have tried USB connection from a first generation iPad to a Cambridge Audio DACmagic 100 and the iPad complained that too much power was being requested (or something like that).

Robert

I read several reviewers panning the iD100 but gave this unit good marks. Unfortunately it will not charge the iPad.

http://www.wadia.com/products/transports/171i/

jhonsberger@msn.com
2012-08-31, 14:21
I see nothing on this list I'd be interested in .

Hopefully , there will be some future products that will
be able to replace the squeezebox at a similar price point.

gruntwolla
2012-08-31, 14:38
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/musiccast2/index.asp All discontinued - pity - looked quite interesting

Trev

jimzak
2012-08-31, 15:31
Marantz's entry
http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=HiFiComponents&SubCatId=0&ProductId=NA7004

gruntwolla
2012-08-31, 19:21
Any reason why you're discounting Sonos? From my perspective, Sonos does everything that I need, albeit at a higher price than I would ideally like. I could probably sell my various squeezeboxes whilst they still have some market value for enough to start a 2 zone Sonos system. It's not a scenario I'm entirely happy with, as my squeezebox system is working perfectly, but I guess we're all in the same boat from that point of view.
Trev

Jayrcee
2012-08-31, 22:12
Any reason why you're discounting Sonos? From my perspective, Sonos does everything that I need, albeit at a higher price than I would ideally like. I could probably sell my various squeezeboxes whilst they still have some market value for enough to start a 2 zone Sonos system. It's not a scenario I'm entirely happy with, as my squeezebox system is working perfectly, but I guess we're all in the same boat from that point of view.
Trev

For me, the fact that Sonos doesn't support HiRes audio and the track limits are the two factors I can't go that route.

erland
2012-09-01, 00:16
However, I would be interested in the alternatives that are out there for hi-fi networked music aside from Sonos.

In my opinion, if we look at what's available now:

For audiophiles:
Base your system on a solution from your favorite HiFi manufacturer, you can probably forget about them being focused at whole house audio on longer terms because they are primarily focused on audio quality and will ignore features like smart playlists, advanced browsing, synchronized playback, providing good support for online streaming services and similar, or at least give them low priority. They might support a few streaming services in their solution today but believe me, if they plan to continue to be focused at HiFi they will not focus at online streaming services enough to make their implementation the best. Of course, there could be HiFi manufacturers who want to move towards the mass market and for these the situation would be different. The main advantage with HiFi manufacturers is that you know they will focus on audio quality, so you are sure that's not something they will give low priority.

For normal users who need audio in many rooms:
Base your system on Apple or Sonos, everyone else might focus on something else next year or aren't big enough so you can't be sure they will survive on longer terms. Sonos currently also provides the best solution for whole house audio as they have different kind of devices to make it a good solution in all types of rooms. Apple is a bit more limited, but with the correct docking station and their AirPlay support I believe it's possible to make it work even if it won't be the same as what you get with a Squeezebox system today. With an Apple solution (not based on Squeezebox apps) you can probably forget about synchronized playback between multiple rooms, but I'm not sure synchronized playback is important for a lot of people, I think most people might use it because it exists but could live without it if it didn't.

For normal users:
Everything will likely be good enough if you are in this user category, most normal users just want a single device that works and is simple to use. Since they only have one or two devices it's easy for them to switch to something else after a year or two. The simplest solution for many of them might be to just get a docking station to their iPhone or a bluetooth speaker solution.

But most importantly:
If your Squeezebox system works good today it's very likely going to work good also for the next 6-12 months, probably longer, so don't go to the store and replace it with what's available today. It's a lot better to give it at least 12 months and see how the market evolves and handles the hole left by Logitech.

How would you feel if you went to the store and purchased one of the limited alternatives available today and another competitor or somebody new released a system with similar features as Squeezebox in a year which fulfills all your important needs ? Wouldn't that be kind of wasted money ?

The situation would have been differently if Logitech would shutdown mysqueezebox.com and maintenance completely already now, but that's not the case, so there isn't any hurry as far as I can see. Also, even though I don't have much hope that Logitech will do the right things, there is still a chance they will realize what the market really wants and do something great with the new UE Smart Radio brand, I personally don't think this will happen but at least in theory there is a chance, also here the next 12-24 months will show us if they know what they are doing or not.

Mnyb
2012-09-01, 00:38
Tricky tricky , I fit all off Erlands user categories at the same time ! i must be a squeezebox user :) .

Now i'm just chilling with my boom ,later I fill my whole apartment with music synced ,and later on I will use my hifi to enjouy serius SQ using one player .

But i'm not in need of over advanced browsing and services is spotify or bandcamp and a fraction of web-radio (and now defunct Live Music Archive ) ,but 95% local files so that is spot on .

We could build a matrix somehow , parameters that i find important :

Wide fileformat support flac is must and 24/96 too and conversion of other rates and odd formats that’s not native .

Unlimited library size (just add more disc CPU or whatnot ,but no architecture limits ) ,sonos 65k files on a good day is not good enough it's likely less with more tags in the files so I'll be there soon with my 37k files with quite a lot of tag info .

Browsing should be better than the bare file folder structure. Based on tags or other user input to customize the experience, like ratings etc , not as advanced as many of erlands plugins but better than rock bottom.

Music only device no TV needed to browse the music .

A reasonable playlist feature , here it is very easy to actually be better than the squeezebox , I don't use playlist much mainly because the LMS solution is so shoddy , any post >y 2005 device should be able to generate a smart list based on a seed track.

michael123
2012-09-01, 00:40
My alternatives:

Weiss MAN301 (!!)
Aurender S10 + DAC (preferrable EMM)
PS Audio PerfectWave DAC II + Bridge
Aurality L1000
SOtM sMS-1000

toby10
2012-09-01, 03:47
I looked into both Olive and MusicCast before coming to SB. Both systems were:
- closed source
- limited features
- almost no customization
- very limited offered services / subscriptions
- minimal codec support
- big, clunky, ugly boxes (worse than Sonos ;))
- no "players" to utilize the main units library/services (I think MusicCast did eventually add these later, before dropping the whole line)
- both were WAY overpriced

Olive is essentially an overpriced VortexBox with fewer features.

MusicCast is so closed source you couldn't even backup your library without "special" software from Yamaha. To simply upgrade the MusicCast HDD required sending the entire unit to a Yamaha service center (or an unauthorized third party) to again run special Yamaha proprietary software to transfer the HDD data to another HDD. This service cost hundreds (not including the cost of the HDD itself) and took weeks. Yamaha would only allow "their" HDD's be used, which were off the shelf HDD's that Yamaha marked up over 100% above mfr list price.

michael123
2012-09-01, 03:54
I do not care about open/closed source unless it is properly supported.
There are many open source projects that it is just a facade and a mechanism to not doing any kind of proper support and commitment.
Open source projects frequently lack any kind of roadmap and what's actually assures you in the continuation of the project is the community of users and availability of developers.

jimzak
2012-09-01, 04:17
Denon's entry looks good:

http://usa.denon.com/us/Product/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?CatId=StreamingMedia(DenonNA)&PId=DNP720AE(DenonNA)

toby10
2012-09-01, 04:22
Denon url is dead.

jimzak
2012-09-01, 05:01
Denon url is dead.

Addendum: I don't understand why this URL does not work because when I go to the product page via Google, this is the URL.

Anyway Google DNP720AE

?!

erland
2012-09-01, 05:10
Addendum: I don't understand why this URL does not work because when I go to the product page via Google, this is the URL.

Anyway Google DNP720AE

?!

It's caused by forum software skipping the last ) in the url, the correct URL is:
http://usa.denon.com/us/Product/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?CatId=StreamingMedia(DenonNA)&PId=DNP720AE(DenonNA)

jimzak
2012-09-01, 05:29
Here are 77 pages of music players, most of which are not applicable to our situation, but interesting:

http://www.techfresh.net/tech-gadgets/music-players/

Mnyb
2012-09-01, 05:54
Denon's entry looks good:

http://usa.denon.com/us/Product/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?CatId=StreamingMedia(DenonNA)&PId=DNP720AE(DenonNA)

DLNA wonder what server you should choose for that , migth influence the actual experience of it a bit .

You could use LMS + whitebear if on windows ... or something else .

As for controll on iSomething or Andriod what would be good ?

As predicted by Erland I think multiroom sync is not there at all, and it has a 24/96 DAC but specs are sketchy about file support at thoose rates "FLAC" could mean anything .

But price is not to much , but not the most appealing option .

Anuthyng out there that supports multichannel flac and has hdmi out ? [EDIT] if the competion cant beat squeezebox in some areas then maybe one can feel compensated if you can get stuff that squeezebox never had ?

erland
2012-09-01, 05:59
As for controll on iSomething or Andriod what would be good ?

The Kinsky iOS app from Linn is the best UPnP/DLNA controller I've seen, no idea if it works with the Denon hardware, often there seems to be a bit incompatibilities between UPnP devices from different manufacturers.
Kinsky is not as good as iPeng but it's a lot better than many of the other UPnP controllers available IMHO.
http://oss.linn.co.uk/trac/wiki/DownloadKinsky

mdconnelly
2012-09-01, 06:18
While I'm not about to dump my Squeezeboxen anytime soon, one product that I'm curious about is the AudioEngine D2. I'm not clear if you can bypass the D2 Receiver's DAC to use your own, but the concept of a D2 Sender working with up to 3 D2 Receivers is intriguing. Might be worth checking out... http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Audioengine-D2.

toby10
2012-09-01, 07:11
..... Anyway Google DNP720AE

Looks like a decent unit. But at $499 and such a large size I'd much prefer a SB Touch with it's additional digital out, SD card, touch screen, server access (I don't use iTunes nor do I own an Apple device), and for $200 less. But then, I am a bit biased. :)

saeyedoc
2012-09-01, 07:27
While I'm not about to dump my Squeezeboxen anytime soon, one product that I'm curious about is the AudioEngine D2. I'm not clear if you can bypass the D2 Receiver's DAC to use your own, but the concept of a D2 Sender working with up to 3 D2 Receivers is intriguing. Might be worth checking out... http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Audioengine-D2.
Yes, the receiver does have digital out. What I'd like is a less expensive unit that does away with the DAC. That might get the price down to a reasonable level.

jimzak
2012-09-01, 09:54
I got the cue to search for this from another related thread:

Linn DS players
http://www.linn.co.uk/systems/all-products/linn-ds

I'm sure they are not cheap.

Mnyb
2012-09-01, 10:04
We are in no hurry to replace our systems yet , I expect to use years to contemplate the issue .
And my replacement would be some product not yet existing for natural reasons .

The current situation is very similar to what it was when i opted for squeezeboxes in 2006 sans squeezeboxes :-/

The situation is not only that the current products compare like apples and oranges ? it is like you desperately settle for any kind of fruit but your only offered dirt or sand as options .

Or choosing between cars that only go left or right , the situation is currently impossible I'll sit on it a couple off years and will continue to enjoy my squeezeboxes in the meantime .

I'ts sad to think that Logitech incompetence killed a truly unique product line that really has no equal in the current market ?
It's stupendous they have a complete niche in the market for themselves with actually no one offering something similar (with the exception of soolos ,but they are priced silly ) and yet they fail ?

I will watch the tread if someone finds anything similar I expect it to take time .

As I'm Hi-Fi interested I will sometimes read the sales info from various brands and share of something comes up, but I have little faith in Hi-Fi engineering they simply lack the right kind of imagination and system approach they often miss the big picture .

The Meridian Soolos brand has a system approach as given by this product http://www.meridian-audio.com/sooloos/mc600.php
But the pricing is very very silly nothing you cant do with a HP microserver and a box of Touch units , wait thats what i have :)

garym
2012-09-01, 10:05
I got the cue to search for this from another related thread:

Linn DS players
http://www.linn.co.uk/systems/all-products/linn-ds

I'm sure they are not cheap.

looking at akurate ds, klimax ds, sneaky ds, etc. it is hard to find a price online with a quick look, but one will spend several thousand pounds up to maybe 8,000 pound sterling. And you'll be using upnp/Dlna with some additional software (kinsky), that at its best pales in comparison with LMS. Makes the Touch look even more of a bargain.

http://oss.linn.co.uk/trac/wiki/Kinsky

Mnyb
2012-09-01, 10:06
A better link to the complete soolos offerings .

http://www.meridian-audio.com/sooloos/the-components.php

castalla
2012-09-01, 10:18
The Cocktail Audio x10 gets good reviews and user feedback - rubbish name, 'though.

chenrikson
2012-09-01, 10:44
IIRC a company called "Grace" has a wide range of internet players, tho I know nothing about the quality.

Craig

castalla
2012-09-01, 11:17
IIRC a company called "Grace" has a wide range of internet players, tho I know nothing about the quality.

Craig

You're going to encounter the mysteries of Reciva taking this route!

jimzak
2012-09-01, 11:34
A better link to the complete soolos offerings .

http://www.meridian-audio.com/sooloos/the-components.php

The Media Core 600 component goes for 6000 :)

rbz5416
2012-09-01, 12:26
Just an case anyone is thinking of buying a "hifi" streamer, be aware that many don't support gapless playback.

Mnyb
2012-09-01, 13:17
The Media Core 600 component goes for 6000 :)

He exactly , a thing soolos got rigth is an optional very large Touch screen (larger than any pad i seen ), wonder if should pass my Meridian delar and ask if it does gapless

Wonder if you really need the media core component in every install there are "simpler" options although also a very expensive, the system is a complex, but you in this price range the dealer is expected to present a solution and setup the thing for you .

it is however easy to use .

RonM
2012-09-01, 13:58
I was upgrading my car stereo yesterday, and the guy showed me a new receiver (house not car) that was networked into the shop network. You could see music folders on computers, and play the files. Including playlists. Don't know limitations, but was certainly a way to access a library. Did not require a server. Worked just like a car stereo playing files from a USB flash drive.

Ron

andy_c
2012-09-01, 14:01
Just an case anyone is thinking of buying a "hifi" streamer, be aware that many don't support gapless playback.

Exactly. One concern with DLNA is that gapless playback is optional, not required. Support for gapless is needed in both the server and renderer for gapless playback to work. Some really interesting threads in the JRiver forum and elsewhere can be found by googling SetNextAVTransportURI

Linn has their own gapless implementation outside of DLNA. They claim the DLNA implementation of gapless is badly flawed. There's all kinds of vague information floating around, including links to an Intel document that supposedly recommends against implementing SetNextAVTransportURI() (required for gapless). But the links to this document are all dead, so I don't know what's up. The discussions in the J-River forum involve AndrewFG (Whitebear developer), so they may be of interest to some here.

)p(
2012-09-01, 14:15
Exactly. One concern with DLNA is that gapless playbackThe discussions in the J-River forum involve AndrewFG (Whitebear developer), so they may be of interest to some here.

I sometimes use jrmc as a dnla server with whitebear as the go between with our sb's. It does gapless playback and it works pretty well. But its not as stable as using the sb's with lms.

We have been using the sb's less and less. Most of the time we use now airplay to apple tv/airport express. Even with lms we use it more with ipeng's playback functionality and airplay to appletv/ae then the sb's.

snoogly
2012-09-01, 14:48
It certainly is a minefield out there. I stumbled upon the NAD C 446 streamer, thinking if anyone could get it right, NAD could.

Great press reviews, the user reviews tell a different story: http://nadelectronics.com/user-reviews/822

Ironic that when researching alternatives one is often sent right back to SB ;-)

jimzak
2012-09-02, 18:04
Try pairing an iPod with iPeng player software with

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA1070BW5394

Feed the HDMI into the appropriate component audio via HDMI!

dasmueller
2012-09-02, 18:20
Sorry. if it requires purchase of an Apple product I am not interested.

jimzak
2012-09-03, 06:25
I've heard/read that HDMI may not be ideal in some ways, therefore this dock which has a DAC but can be bypassed via 2 digital non-HDMI outputs, may be a great Touch sub when combined with an iPod and iPeng playback:

PURE i-20 Digital Dock for iPod/iPhone with Hi-Fi Quality Audio and Video Output

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0049MOK92/?tag=hyprod-20&hvadid=15475785219&hvpos=1o1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2052636071799186202&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&ref=asc_df_B0049MOK92

garym
2012-09-03, 06:29
I've heard/read that HDMI may not be ideal in some ways, therefore this dock which has a DAC but can be bypassed via 2 digital non-HDMI outputs, may be a great Touch sub when combined with an iPod and iPeng playback:

PURE i-20 Digital Dock for iPod/iPhone with Hi-Fi Quality Audio and Video Output

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0049MOK92/?tag=hyprod-20&hvadid=15475785219&hvpos=1o1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2052636071799186202&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&ref=asc_df_B0049MOK92

or

http://www.wadia.com/products/transports/170i/
http://www.wadia.com/products/transports/171i/

nervoteso
2012-09-03, 06:43
Any reason why you're discounting Sonos? From my perspective, Sonos does everything that I need, albeit at a higher price than I would ideally like. I could probably sell my various squeezeboxes whilst they still have some market value for enough to start a 2 zone Sonos system. It's not a scenario I'm entirely happy with, as my squeezebox system is working perfectly, but I guess we're all in the same boat from that point of view.
Trev

the problem with sonos is that those devices have no display like touch or radio or boom have

jimzak
2012-09-03, 06:46
the problem with sonos is that those devices have no display like touch or radio or boom have

The other problem is the 65,000 file limit; this is a major issue for me.

I left Sonos out because most folks are aware of it as an alternative already.

jimzak
2012-09-03, 06:48
or

http://www.wadia.com/products/transports/170i/
http://www.wadia.com/products/transports/171i/

I believe the only problem here is that this item doesn't charge the iPad. Therefore, it could be used only until the iPad discharges. It does charge the iPod however. Otherwise looks good but pricey.

nervoteso
2012-09-03, 06:58
The other problem is the 65,000 file limit; this is a major issue for me.

I left Sonos out because most folks are aware of it as an alternative already.



65.000 file limit? really? also for me!!! bye bye sonos....which alternative? i use a lot of services like lastfm and deezer, also now LMS is installed in nas qnap and i've all music stored in that nas

garym
2012-09-03, 07:01
65.000 file limit? really? also for me!!! bye bye sonos....which alternative? i use a lot of services like lastfm and deezer, also now LMS is installed in nas qnap and i've all music stored in that nas

and that's the upper limit. Depending on the metadata in your tags, it could be much fewer than 65k. Problem for me as well. Also note 16/44.1 files only (although I have very little 24/96 or 24/192 myself, so not a problem for me). Also, a closed system (no 3rd party plugins). And has Pippin has pointed out, other than producing new hardware products, Sonos has done nothing to update/improve their software in years.

jimzak
2012-09-03, 08:04
Sorry. if it requires purchase of an Apple product I am not interested.

To be fair, there is an Android alternative:

1. Any Android device
2. Sqeezeplayer, the Squeezebox Android playback app: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?87364-ANNOUNCE-Music-Playback-now-on-ANDROID!-SqueezePlayer-released-to-the-market
3. Appropriate dock for that Android device
4. Amplified speakers or component audio system

For example:

1. Galaxy Tab 10.1
2. Squeezeplayer
3. Samsung dock for Galaxy Tab 10.1: http://www.qvc.com/qvc.product.E259394.html?item=E259394&ref=GAS&tpl=detail&cm_ven=GOOGLESHOPPINGFEED&cm_cat=Electronics&cm_pla=Computers&cm_ite=E259394-000-000&adtype=pla
4. Speakers: http://www.amazon.com/M-Audio-Studiophile-Powered-Monitor-Speakers/dp/B0051WAM64/ref=sr_1_8?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1346684467&sr=1-8&keywords=amplified+speakers

Galaxy Tab 10.1 refurb ~250 USD, Squeezeplayer 5 USD, Dock 19 USD, Speakers ~130 USD = nice, small system with big display and no Apple stuff.

...and any other remote (such as another Android device) you have will work on this player too.

And there is a HDMI adapter kit for the Samsung dock above if you want to pay a bit more and pass the music to component audio.

Steve Baumgarten
2012-09-03, 08:16
> I've heard/read that HDMI may not be ideal in some ways, therefore this
> dock which has a DAC but can be bypassed via 2 digital non-HDMI outputs,
> may be a great Touch sub when combined with an iPod and iPeng playback:
>
> PURE i-20 Digital Dock for iPod/iPhone with Hi-Fi Quality Audio and
> Video Output
>
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0049MOK92/?tag=hyprod-20&hvadid=15475785219&hvpos=1o1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2052636071799186202&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&ref=asc_df_B0049MOK92

Wow, it sure seems like that gizmo plus a spare iPod Touch running iPeng
gives you pretty much what we got from the now discontinued Touch, and for
more or less the same price (plus you get a "free" iPod Touch this way).

The creativity and enthusiasm of this community never stops amazing me.

I'm planning on getting an iPhone later this year and for sure iPeng will
be the first app I purchase.

SBB

giantpopples
2012-09-03, 08:43
It may not be an alternative now but i would keep an eye on Voco (http://www.myvoco.com/), they use a modified SqueezeboxCenter (version 7.5.5 now) as a backend, offers some gears (but no screen) and are not so pricey.

I saw that the V-zone has an hdmi out, maybe it will support multi channel audio in the future, that would be nice !

Vilmann
2012-09-03, 08:47
A microcomputer with Squeezeslave and a decent DAC seems to be the most logical alternative. Maybe Raspberry Pi?
I just did a test on an old ATOM-powered laptop. Works fine, but the fan is rather annoying. Remote control is easy with Android or iOS but I think there might be a way to control it through IR.
There's even a display option - whick I didn't check out.

All competitors seems to be either way to expensive or way too complicated to handle on a daily basis. No, I dont want to convert my music to some other format. No, I dont trust your hardware - you do the hifi stuff, I do the computers. No, I don't need a 10K DAC to listen to internet radio.

jimzak
2012-09-03, 15:23
A microcomputer with Squeezeslave and a decent DAC seems to be the most logical alternative. Maybe Raspberry Pi?
I just did a test on an old ATOM-powered laptop. Works fine, but the fan is rather annoying. Remote control is easy with Android or iOS but I think there might be a way to control it through IR.
There's even a display option - whick I didn't check out.

All competitors seems to be either way to expensive or way too complicated to handle on a daily basis. No, I dont want to convert my music to some other format. No, I dont trust your hardware - you do the hifi stuff, I do the computers. No, I don't need a 10K DAC to listen to internet radio.

How about a small computer with SqueezePlay?

My question is how does one get the digital signal out to a DAC?

Is there such a small computer already with digital out?

garym
2012-09-03, 15:28
How about a small computer with SqueezePlay?

My question is how does one get the digital signal out to a DAC?

Is there such a small computer already with digital out?

USB out to DAC?

jimzak
2012-09-03, 15:41
USB out to DAC?

I found lots of USB out options including this one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007V6M0OU/ref=s9_simh_gw_p267_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=0HDVE6QXPHG8THZ1TGES&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938811&pf_rd_i=507846

Pricey but I guess it eliminates jitter.

garym
2012-09-03, 15:44
I found lots of USB out options including this one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007V6M0OU/ref=s9_simh_gw_p267_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=0HDVE6QXPHG8THZ1TGES&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938811&pf_rd_i=507846

Pricey but I guess it eliminates jitter.

You don't have to have USB to spdif converter if you have a DAC that has USB input. There are many of these around now.

garym
2012-09-03, 15:49
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/5/59298.html

I've always thought the fitpc2 would make a nice dedicated silent unit for audio. Haven't tried yet. It has spdif out as well.


http://www.fit-pc.com/web/fit-pc/fit-pc2i-specifications/

pallfreeman
2012-09-03, 16:34
I've always thought the fitpc2 would make a nice dedicated silent unit for audio. Haven't tried yet. It has spdif out as well.


Costs too much, and runs too hot.

Has to be something like the Apple TV 2.

jimzak
2012-09-03, 16:42
You don't have to have USB to spdif converter if you have a DAC that has USB input. There are many of these around now.

Ok.

So the equation would be something like the following:

1. A mini PC with USB running SqueezePlay
2. A DAC with USB input
3. An amplifier or powered speakers

Example:

1. Zotac mini PC (150-400 USD)
2. DAC (150-500 USD or more)
3. Amplified speakers such as above or plug into AVR or amplifier

What is a good DAC that is comparable to the one in the Touch?

garym
2012-09-03, 16:44
Costs too much, and runs too hot.

Has to be something like the Apple TV 2.

I meant dedicated computer. Yes it is a bit pricy. Some use the available heat sink (more money too!). The apple tv is not a server that can run software (Im assuming).

RonM
2012-09-03, 17:22
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/5/59298.html

I've always thought the fitpc2 would make a nice dedicated silent unit for audio. Haven't tried yet. It has spdif out as well.


http://www.fit-pc.com/web/fit-pc/fit-pc2i-specifications/

I've been using one as my music server for several years, without a single problem of any sort. I don't understand the "runs too hot" comment. Yes, it's warm, but that's because it's radiating all the modest heat it produces through the heatsink cabinet. A unit with a fan dissipates the heat, usually much more heat, in a different way. The latter will have more of a room-heating effect.

As to price, you get what you pay for. The Fit2 diskless (which is how you should get it) is modestly priced.

R.

jimzak
2012-09-03, 17:38
I've been using one as my music server for several years, without a single problem of any sort. I don't understand the "runs too hot" comment. Yes, it's warm, but that's because it's radiating all the modest heat it produces through the heatsink cabinet. A unit with a fan dissipates the heat, usually much more heat, in a different way. The latter will have more of a room-heating effect.

As to price, you get what you pay for. The Fit2 diskless (which is how you should get it) is modestly priced.

R.

I do like the idea of a fanless design, if it doesn't fry itself...which it apparently does not.

jimzak
2012-09-03, 17:40
I know it's probably somewhat of a sore topic, but...

Does Google TV in any iteration have digital or HDMI outs AND is there a Squeezebox app for this platform?

bluegaspode
2012-09-03, 22:32
GoogleTV does not support the NDK, so it's very unlikely to see a player software there. I tried hard, but failed to circumvent this limitation with my SqueezePlayer App.

bluegaspode
2012-09-03, 22:36
As for hardware alternatives: look out for SheevaPlug and RaspberryPi on this forum. Both are cheap, are fanless, powerful and have ready to run builds with SqueezeSlave.
One probably would just need an extra casing for RaspberryPi (there are some to buy out there) and then you'll have a device much like a SB Receiver.

verypsb
2012-09-03, 23:04
Squuezeslave does not work with sample rates other than 44.1khz/16bit and many music streaming services don't work with Squeezeslave.

erland
2012-09-03, 23:14
Squuezeslave does not work with sample rates other than 44.1khz/16bit and many music streaming services don't work with Squeezeslave.

Isn't that because Logitech generally blocks all non Logitech players from mysqueezebox.com provided premium streaming services ?

GeeJay
2012-09-03, 23:27
Isn't that because Logitech generally blocks all non Logitech players from mysqueezebox.com provided premium streaming services ?

One would hope if that is the case, they would lift the restriction. Unless they plan to sell more devices which offer that feature.

I'm still not entirely convinced they won't, and if that is what happens they will be more concerned about producing a product you might purchase to replace your SB, which suddenly has less functionality than you used to enjoy.

pallfreeman
2012-09-04, 02:45
The apple tv is not a server that can run software (Im assuming).

It has to be "jailbroken". Googling "xbmc apple tv 2" gives the instructions for installing XBMC on it. XBMC already has a squeezeslave, so it's 90% there already.

pallfreeman
2012-09-04, 02:57
I do like the idea of a fanless design, if it doesn't fry itself...which it apparently does not.

No. It just makes you think it's going to!

Mine's lasted 18 months so far running 24/7 as a router in a dusty corner of the wife's study. Highly recommended, other than the faint burning smell. The FIT-PC2, that is, not the wife.

the nightfly
2012-09-04, 03:10
How about a small computer with SqueezePlay?

Someone would have to hack SqueezePlay so it handled hi-res files; right now, I believe the best it can do is 24/48.

bpa
2012-09-04, 04:18
One would hope if that is the case, they would lift the restriction. Unless they plan to sell more devices which offer that feature.

I'm still not entirely convinced they won't, and if that is what happens they will be more concerned about producing a product you might purchase to replace your SB, which suddenly has less functionality than you used to enjoy.
I think there are two issues.

1. IIRC Squeezeslave (and many other non Logitech players) cannot play many audio stream direct (i.e. stream goes from station to player and player sends metadata to server for display) and also the player does not have many native audio codec and so require LMS to transcode. So even if Logitech lifted the restrictions today - I think the player would be unable to play the streams.

2. Some premium streams have some sort of agreement with Logitech effectively requiring Logitech to ensure that streams only go to Logitech players (presumably somebody believes it would minimise opportunity for copying or getting access to premium services without an account).

garym
2012-09-04, 04:36
It has to be "jailbroken". Googling "xbmc apple tv 2" gives the instructions for installing XBMC on it. XBMC already has a squeezeslave, so it's 90% there already.

I can see that possibility. But can a jailbroken apple tv 2 run full LMS program? I think we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about a computer that can run LMS (and also be a player perhaps by running squeezeplay, etc.). Seems like the apple example is something that can be a player and run limited software (squeezeslave), but might struggle to run fullblown LMS. I'm happy to be wrong here (I'm just trying to clarify what the apple tv 2 can do in terms of being a small computer, like a fitpc2, sheevaplug, small NAS, etc.).

pallfreeman
2012-09-04, 05:48
I'm just trying to clarify what the apple tv 2 can do in terms of being a small computer, like a fitpc2, sheevaplug, small NAS, etc

The main problem would be memory. Yeah, Google says that the ATV2 only comes with 256M, which is probably not enough to do anything useful as a server (like the Touch). But the ATV3 has 512MB: enough to satisfy quite a few people.

Datapoint: Apple only sold 3 Million of these ATV boxes last year, but that's OK, because they think of them as a "corporate hobby".

FWIW, I picked up a Dell SX270 for about $60 on eBay. Ugly little thing, but works really well running LMS+Debian.

ticalex
2012-09-04, 06:35
I can see that possibility. But can a jailbroken apple tv 2 run full LMS program? I think we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about a computer that can run LMS (and also be a player perhaps by running squeezeplay, etc.). Seems like the apple example is something that can be a player and run limited software (squeezeslave), but might struggle to run fullblown LMS. I'm happy to be wrong here (I'm just trying to clarify what the apple tv 2 can do in terms of being a small computer, like a fitpc2, sheevaplug, small NAS, etc.).

After years of dev with SB and Slimserver, the ultimate product was according to us the "Black box" from logitech.
Why :

1/ Cost effective
2/ Simple to intergrate
3/ Small Size
4/ Reliable software and harware with very accurate music synch results (cat5 linked / around 15ms) Way far better than any othe device on the market... tried a lot.
5/ No display... no more remote control.
6/ A very simple & sexy UI for : player / remote / server
7/ Having a player (media renderer) software "clone" to put on any already existing PC or compatible device... a jointventure with AV receiver, DVD Players, TV (Cable & SAT) STB, Smart TV .... Companies would be a must...
8/ In 2012 maybe it is time now to consider a built in video & image player also ?

The closest product on the market, wether we like it or not (please avoid affective or religious considertaion :o) is the ATV2.

Why all those 7 points so important :

1/ around a 100 $/ is a max, occording to the fact that you want to put one in almost every room (so consider the whole home price for players)
2/ Plug and Play is nowdays the only way (think for the very important WAF point to be consider in home use)
3/ If want to put one behind a TV, an AV receiver, a Stereo... it as to be small and minimum heat
4/ The accurency of the synch (for music only, forget real video synch... to many network problems) is very important and a good marketing seller point.
5/ No display at all. Even the simple LCD display of the original squeezebow where the weakness of the product (as logitech kept same harware, it is the same with logitech devices). With the low price of any smart phone, tablets, smart TVs.... a remote software can show informations on any device and forget the remote... IR remote is expensive, you need to face the product, the range is short... Radio remotes are expensive... even apple kept on IR remote which is nice, but useless in most cases...
6/ One of the most important thing to me is defineitly UI.

- UI 1 : The Server...
* Aminstraion & Organise system and Plist
* If possible, concentrate a copy of any Multimedia file on the network with compatible devices. (the server would be a major back up for multimedia files at home... audio, private video, recorded TV programs....)
* Having Multiple User accounts for each players, in order for different members in the family to give different "stars" to the same files, and having each their own Plist...
* Create "Collections" ( For exemple i want to regroup all "Cafe del Mar Albulms into a "Collection" or All James Bond Movies ...)
* Manage your AV files with the possibility to have multiple "file sources"... a tool to optimize tags and rename, automated search for name, art and tags
* A tool to give the rights to the players (Public or Private) on the network, and the restrictions of use (for example, forbiden synch of player N 2 & N7)... forbiden video for player N6.... Users & Player rights -- Player N12 private to user "Bill"

- UI 2 : The Remote / Would be great to have 2 Levels ... Once you have selected the player - AREA to control
Level 1 Simply select music / Plist / artist... Chose 1 or many (Zones) Players / volume .. Play ...Pause...
Level 2 : Advance file search, Create Manage Plist and Tags... / Manage Players.... Create SCENARIOS for Synch Zones : AREA (Ex: "All 1 Floor" = Room1 + Room2...)

- UI 3 : The Player : Go straight to the Level 2 Remote software.

7/ Many of us (all i think :o) have already PCs, Smart Phone, name it electronic devices ..... wouldnt it be glad to turn some is usefull equipement, with having a software version of the palyer (with a warning on the synch accurency results) in order to turn for exemple and old ipod touch or laptop into a Player...
Having this soft straight built in into a AV receiver or a STB would be a must.

8/ No need to say in 2012, all devices fills our disc memories with Gb of Music, but also Pictures, Videos, Web Radios links, Podcast..... Some day, i will no longer want to have 3 or devices connected to my TV, my Stereo & or my AV Receiver. I will want ONE with the interface, icons, navigations... i am used to in order to diplay, play, show, render.... any kind of media files i have....

Regards

Alexandre.

pippin
2012-09-04, 06:59
But please be aware that despite all their lyrics about their 192kHz DAC the dock will only use 48kHz streams, everything else will be downsampled on iOS. 96kHz currently ONLY seems to work with the Camera Connection Kit for the iPad!

Other streams will play fine, but as I said: they will be downsampled

bernt
2012-09-04, 07:03
No way my wife (or I, me ,myself?) will pick her iPhone, unlock it, wait for network and load the app just to change song.

With a traditional remote it's done in a second and that is also why a display is also a must.

verypsb
2012-09-04, 08:25
Isn't that because Logitech generally blocks all non Logitech players from mysqueezebox.com provided premium streaming services ?
That, and Squeezeslave doesn't support direct streaming.

bluegaspode
2012-09-04, 09:02
But please be aware that despite all their lyrics about their 192kHz DAC the dock will only use 48kHz streams, everything else will be downsampled on iOS. 96kHz currently ONLY seems to work with the Camera Connection Kit for the iPad!

Other streams will play fine, but as I said: they will be downsampled
It's not fair that you tell them audiophiles the truth :)
Now that they know they will hear the difference of course ...

Grumpy Bob
2012-09-04, 09:20
But please be aware that despite all their lyrics about their 192kHz DAC the dock will only use 48kHz streams, everything else will be downsampled on iOS. 96kHz currently ONLY seems to work with the Camera Connection Kit for the iPad!

Other streams will play fine, but as I said: they will be downsampled

D'you know if one can charge via the camera connection kit (while playing a digital stream)? My googling would suggest not...

Robert

erland
2012-09-04, 09:46
5/ No display at all. Even the simple LCD display of the original squeezebow where the weakness of the product (as logitech kept same harware, it is the same with logitech devices). With the low price of any smart phone, tablets, smart TVs.... a remote software can show informations on any device and forget the remote... IR remote is expensive, you need to face the product, the range is short... Radio remotes are expensive... even apple kept on IR remote which is nice, but useless in most cases...

Not sure what you mean with this, but if you mean that there shouldn't exist a player with a display I definitely disagree, the display is one of the strengths of the Squeezebox compared to other systems, I use the display in all my players and would miss it immediately if it wasn't there.

The IR is also very important for me in the living room, because there the Touch is connected to an amplifier and I wouldn't want to use two different remotes to turn on amplifier, select the correct input and power on the Touch, currently I can thanks to the IR support do this with one single Harmony IR remote control. For the Radio/Boom type players I agree that the IR support isn't important because with these you usually only want to control one device and then a iPhone/Android remote is enough. I also agree that IR support is bad for browsing and so is the display, but both are very important for simple operations and showing what's currently played. I never control anything via the touch screen on the Touch, so a normal screen would be enough, I don't need a touch screen.

I'm not going back to the situation I had 10 years ago with 6 remotes on the table, the Harmony was a revolution for the remote control in same way as the Squeezebox revolution for my music listening and MythTV for the way to watch TV.



7/ Many of us (all i think :o) have already PCs, Smart Phone, name it electronic devices ..... wouldnt it be glad to turn some is usefull equipement, with having a software version of the palyer (with a warning on the synch accurency results) in order to turn for exemple and old ipod touch or laptop into a Player...
Having this soft straight built in into a AV receiver or a STB would be a must.

People aren't buying stationary PC's these days, they are buying laptops or tablets, and neither laptops nor tablets is suitable for anything else than local playback through their internal speakers.

A player for an iPod Touch/iPhone/Android smart phone is more interesting as these tends to get outdated after a few years and you end up getting a new one and don't know what to use the old one for, so being able to put the old one in a docking station and use it as a player is great. Fortunately we already have third party Squeezebox player apps for both iPhone (iPeng) and Android (SqueezePlayer) so this works excellently already today.

SBGK
2012-09-04, 11:02
People aren't buying stationary PC's these days, they are buying laptops or tablets, and neither laptops nor tablets is suitable for anything else than local playback through their internal speakers.



wrong on 3 counts there.

erland
2012-09-04, 11:35
wrong on 3 counts there.

When I said "People" it meant normal people not "Geeks" as most people in this community are in one way or another.

jimzak
2012-09-04, 12:33
But please be aware that despite all their lyrics about their 192kHz DAC the dock will only use 48kHz streams, everything else will be downsampled on iOS. 96kHz currently ONLY seems to work with the Camera Connection Kit for the iPad!

Other streams will play fine, but as I said: they will be downsampled

Conclusion: The only solution to higher than 48kHz is to use the CCK with the iPad, then connect via USB to a DAC.

Unfortunately the iPad will discharge in the process. :(

Even with a PC and SqueezePlay, one is limited to 48kHz.

I am unclear if that means anything to me as I am not convinced that I can hear anything better.

garym
2012-09-04, 12:37
Conclusion: The only solution to higher than 48kHz is to use the CCK with the iPad, then connect via USB to a DAC.

Unfortunately the iPad will discharge in the process. :(

Even with a PC and SqueezePlay, one is limited to 48kHz.

I am unclear if that means anything to me as I am not convinced that I can hear anything better.

I wonder if the ipad use (limited to 48) also means that 16/44.1 stuff is converted to 48 rather than passed through as-is.

slate
2012-09-04, 12:58
There is also Simple Audio...

Well they are finally ready with their products which looks like a modernised Sonos.

No Wireless, either LAN cable or Powerline.
all types of formats upto 24/96

But lacking in other areas:
- no mutiroom sync
- missing support for MANY streaming services
- currently a bit married to the fruitcompany
- pricy

http://www.whathifi.com/blog/update-first-impressions-simple-audio-hd-multiroom-hi-fi-system
http://www.whathifi.com/review/roomplayer-1
http://simpleaudio.co.uk/

pippin
2012-09-04, 14:01
D'you know if one can charge via the camera connection kit (while playing a digital stream)? My googling would suggest not...

Robert

No. But maybe somebody eventually makes a dock that also supports 96 kHz....

pippin
2012-09-04, 14:04
I wonder if the ipad use (limited to 48) also means that 16/44.1 stuff is converted to 48 rather than passed through as-is.

No, at least with iPeng it will play as it is.
And iPad DOES support 96kHz USB output, it's just that it's only with the CCK.

If you use analog out on an iThingy, everything will be downsampled to 44.1, if you use HDMI, stuff will be up- or downsampled to 48 (that's the only thing HDMI supports) and if you use AirPlay it's either 44.1 or 48.

jimzak
2012-09-04, 14:19
There is also Simple Audio...

Well they are finally ready with their products which looks like a modernised Sonos.

No Wireless, either LAN cable or Powerline.
all types of formats upto 24/96

But lacking in other areas:
- no mutiroom sync
- missing support for MANY streaming services
- currently a bit married to the fruitcompany
- pricy

http://www.whathifi.com/blog/update-first-impressions-simple-audio-hd-multiroom-hi-fi-system
http://www.whathifi.com/review/roomplayer-1
http://simpleaudio.co.uk/

There's also a 64k file limit :(

...and the things won't be in production until November at the earliest...and that date keeps sliding.

It's basically a hi-res Sonos that is powerline-networked with software that's still more or less in beta.

bluegaspode
2012-09-04, 14:26
There's also a 64k file limit :(

...and the things won't be in production until November at the earliest...and that date keeps sliding.

It's basically a hi-res Sonos that is powerline-networked with software that's still more or less in beta.

SimpleAudio had a booth at IFA already 12 month ago claiming everything is ready to ship ...

pippin
2012-09-04, 14:48
And just like last year, they didn't have any personnel for their booth on IFA but only some distributor type handling several products

jimzak
2012-09-04, 14:51
SimpleAudio had a booth at IFA already 12 month ago claiming everything is ready to ship ...

Sorry for the misinformation. I was looking at a long forum thread from the end of 2011. I believe the first units came out in Jan 2012.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/streamers-network-music-players/1584248-simple-audio-roomplayer-owners-thread.html

rbz5416
2012-09-05, 00:04
with software that's still more or less in beta.


Sorry for the misinformation.

From what I've read this is still pretty much the case.

They seem to have used the Logitech model. Release the product & then desperately try to make it work as advertised...

foxx
2014-07-10, 05:53
Does anyone have any experience with the SOtM sMS-100?

It seems to be an interesting alternative to a genuine squeezebox.
Though it appears not to have wifi functionality, which would be a real show stopper.

audiomuze
2014-07-10, 06:36
It's basically LMS, Squeezelite, mpd and some other open source software coupled with a Wandboard/NUC etc. type device slapped together in a case marked up significantly and sold as an audiophile transport. Looks like the licensing terms conflict with GPLv3 despite their leveraging efforts licensed under GPLv3.

cliston
2015-07-16, 09:15
I realize this thread is very very old, but I was wondering if anyone had tried anything by Grace Digital


http://gracedigital.com/

castalla
2015-07-16, 09:42
I realize this thread is very very old, but I was wondering if anyone had tried anything by Grace Digital


http://gracedigital.com/

Basically - just another Reciva radio ... fewer services than squeezebox, and not configurable.

kh6idf
2015-07-18, 17:25
I'm trying a Denon Heos Link as a Squeezebox replacement. No display but I can use an Android tablet as a controller. So far I like it and it has quite a few music services that is supports.

jamietrew
2015-07-20, 12:37
I'm trying a Denon Heos Link as a Squeezebox replacement. No display but I can use an Android tablet as a controller. So far I like it and it has quite a few music services that is supports.

Interested in your experience with this. I have been struggling with this myself. I have used a Squeezebox setup for more than a decade and as much as it pains me, I want something simpler, with better streaming media integration. The dealkiller on the Sonos, Bluesound, and apparently some others is the 65K (or similar) limit. I just don't understand this.

My perfect system has direct support for popular streaming media, a good app, and no absurd limit for files I host locally. It should ideally be able to seamlessly integrate between sources, e.g. I'd want to be able to play a song from Spotify, then queue up a song from my local library to play afterward. Sonos can do this. As long as my local library isn't that big, which it is.

If Sonos had direct Plex integration, I'd buy it, and just use Plex to host my own stuff. But it doesn't, and in their forums they've said they have no intention. I have no idea why they are trying so hard to prevent people from being able to use their system effectively, but there it is.

So I've been trying to figure out which way to go... Heos also looks interesting. My major concern with the Sonos-like competitors is that they won't last; I don't want to be stuck with an orphan that doesn't get updated as new services and technology evolve. I've also been considering just getting a generic DLNA networked music receiver which supports Spotify Connect, and just serving all my own music from Plex, but I lose the integration between sources/services.

castalla
2015-07-20, 14:16
Interested in your experience with this. I have been struggling with this myself. I have used a Squeezebox setup for more than a decade and as much as it pains me, I want something simpler, with better streaming media integration. The dealkiller on the Sonos, Bluesound, and apparently some others is the 65K (or similar) limit. I just don't understand this.

My perfect system has direct support for popular streaming media, a good app, and no absurd limit for files I host locally. It should ideally be able to seamlessly integrate between sources, e.g. I'd want to be able to play a song from Spotify, then queue up a song from my local library to play afterward. Sonos can do this. As long as my local library isn't that big, which it is.

If Sonos had direct Plex integration, I'd buy it, and just use Plex to host my own stuff. But it doesn't, and in their forums they've said they have no intention. I have no idea why they are trying so hard to prevent people from being able to use their system effectively, but there it is.

So I've been trying to figure out which way to go... Heos also looks interesting. My major concern with the Sonos-like competitors is that they won't last; I don't want to be stuck with an orphan that doesn't get updated as new services and technology evolve. I've also been considering just getting a generic DLNA networked music receiver which supports Spotify Connect, and just serving all my own music from Plex, but I lose the integration between sources/services.

Use the squeeze2upnp plugin and any Sonos becomes a squeezebox player - use LMS and a squeezebox control app. Job done.

garym
2015-07-20, 14:30
Use the squeeze2upnp plugin and any Sonos becomes a squeezebox player - use LMS and a squeezebox control app. Job done.

does this "Sonos that is now a SB player" work in terms of being able to sync with other actual SB players?

p.s. If the earlier poster is having trouble because LMS is not seamlessly working with various music services, how does converting SONOS player to emulate squeezebox solve the LMS problem?

garym
2015-07-20, 14:36
My perfect system has direct support for popular streaming media, a good app, and no absurd limit for files I host locally. It should ideally be able to seamlessly integrate between sources, e.g. I'd want to be able to play a song from Spotify, then queue up a song from my local library to play afterward. Sonos can do this. As long as my local library isn't that big, which it is.


I assume you know that Squeezeboxes and LMS can do this too (that is, play a mixture of songs in a playlist that come from local sources or services like Spotify). I do this all the time with Spotify tracks and my own library.

castalla
2015-07-20, 14:53
does this "Sonos that is now a SB player" work in terms of being able to sync with other actual SB players?

p.s. If the earlier poster is having trouble because LMS is not seamlessly working with various music services, how does converting SONOS player to emulate squeezebox solve the LMS problem?

Sadly, sync-ing is a problem ....

jamietrew
2015-07-21, 05:35
I assume you know that Squeezeboxes and LMS can do this too (that is, play a mixture of songs in a playlist that come from local sources or services like Spotify). I do this all the time with Spotify tracks and my own library.

Yes, I do. I am not framing the problem very well. I want something that works as well as Squeezebox in some respects (management of large local library and ability to source from other services), but solves the problems I have now: hardware availability, app support, amount of maintenance required by me, and overall system stability.

Also bear in mind - I have been using this for over a decade. I have a Squeezebox 2, 3 and a radio. The 2 doesn't work with mysqueezebox.com, so the 3 is pretty much the head unit for my system. It's a bit flaky so I fear for the future. I had been using the Triode plugin for Spotify on the server. Apparently I can buy a Squeezebox Touch for $800 on amazon :rolleyes: so I'm probably not going to invest that kind of cash in a system that has no official hardware support or development.

I love squeezebox when it works, but I guess I am tired of hacking at it all the time. I was willing to put in the effort 10 years ago because there was nothing else (and I had more time)... but I feel like everything I want to do should just work now, given the state of technology 10 years later. My wife wants to be able to just play stuff from her playlist on Spotify and Pandora with her iPhone app. I want to be able to play stuff from my large music collection. I want to be able to buy new hardware. I want to do it all from an app that is professional and maintained and just works. That's not the case today.

I don't actually even care about the syncing any more -- I moved a year ago (just now getting around to setting up my perfect audio system in the new house!) and there's in-wall wiring with home runs so I'm not planning to have separately controlled devices in each room.