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pjs
2012-02-25, 22:37
I have a lot of digital music and am on a lifelong quest to perfect my tagging (e.g. changing Artist/Album Artist from "UB 40" or "ub40" to the correct "UB40").

Just to make sure I'm *not* crazy, I wanted to verify that when I rescan with "Find new and changed music" it won't update database entries when the metadata changes only.

If I'm not crazy, and this is the case, is there a way to scan *just* the mp3 metadata? Or have the Logitech Media Server look at the mp3 metadata when deciding to update the DB entry without dumping the entire DB at the outset?

Thanks!
Pete

erland
2012-02-26, 00:51
I'm not sure I understand the question but "Find new and changed music" will basically work as follows:

1. It detect all files that have a file modification timestamp that's later than the previously scanned version of the file, this means that it will detect:
- New files which doesn't exist in SBS/LMS database
- Updated files which have a newer file modification timestamp than in the SBS/LMS database (basically newer than the last time they where scanned)

2. For all detected files it scans the metadata tags in the files and add or update them in the database.

Does this answer your question ?

JJZolx
2012-02-26, 00:58
Just to make sure I'm *not* crazy, I wanted to verify that when I rescan with "Find new and changed music" it won't update database entries when the metadata changes only.

That's incorrect. It _will_ update the database when only the metadata changes. If either the file size or the date modified changes, the scanner will rescan the file and update the database.


If I'm not crazy, and this is the case, is there a way to scan *just* the mp3 metadata? Or have the Logitech Media Server look at the mp3 metadata when deciding to update the DB entry without dumping the entire DB at the outset?

A 'new & changed' scan does NOT dump the database before starting, but a full 'clear library and rescan everything' scan does. Scanning 'just' the metadata isn't an option, since when a file has changed, the server has no way of knowing whether the metadata has changed, the audio portion has changed, or both. In any case, if you're worried about scan time or efficiency, there's little difference. The scanner doesn't 'scan' the audio portion of the file - it only needs to know where it begins and its length.

A couple things to know:

Normally, you can use the much faster 'new & changed' scan and the scanner will update the database correctly. But sometimes stale data can be left behind. You may find it necessary to run a full 'clear and rescan everything' once in a while.

When there are a _lot_ of files changed or moved or deleted at one time (say thousands), it can be faster to run a full scan than a new & changed scan.

Sometimes a new & changed scan won't correctly update album artwork. I've found this is especially true if you're adding a cover to an album that previously had none. Often the only way to straighten out the database is to run a full scan.

Mnyb
2012-02-26, 04:17
Some files have padded tag area so a tag change may not change it's size that leaves timestamps , but you don't want to ruin your chronology in the new music folders so some poeple have found ways to just adjust the time stamp 2 seconds or similar .

pjs
2012-02-26, 14:30
OK, thanks to everyone for the really instructive responses. I now understand why I wasn't seeing the song artist being updated. It was the ol' Artist vs Album Artist issue. I had changed the Artist in the metadata, but I guess the "key" that's used when you browse "music by artist" is the Album Artist, not the Artist.

Actually, that brings up a good point. If we have a compilation album:

Album: No Alternative
01. Superdeformed (Artist = Matthew Sweet, Album Artist = Various Artists)
02. For All to See (Artist = Buffalo Tom, Album Artist = Various Artists)
...
19. Verse Chorus Verse (Artist = Nirvana, Album Artist = Various Artists)

If I browse the Squeezebox by Artist, I definitely do not want to see a million "Various Artists" under "V". So I think we'd want the Squeezebox to display "Artist", not "Album Artist" in this case.

If we have an artist who has recorded albums under different names:

Surfing On Sine Waves (Artist = Aphex Twin, Album Artist = Polygon Window)
Analogue Bubblebath 3 (Artist = Aphex Twin, Album Artist = AFX)
Joyrex J9ii (Artist = Aphex Twin, Album Artist = Caustic Window)
Rushup Edge (Artist = Aphex Twin, Album Artist = The Tuss)
Richard D. James Album (Artist = Aphex Twin, Album Artist = Aphex Twin)

I think I'd prefer to see all this under Aphex Twin, the Artist, since this makes navigation with the Squeezebox remote much easier.

In both cases where there's a distinction between Artist and Album Artist, I think I prefer Artist. Is there a way to make the importer use the Artist as the key and not Album Artist?

Other for our own personal knowledge, is there ever a time when Album Artist is useful for tagging music? I really don't care about the fact that, say, an album was put out by "Frank Black" or "Frank Black and the Catholics", although I *do* care if it's "Frank Black" or "Pixies".

I know this is pretty anal, and I apologize, but I'm sure many of you must be as anal as me with tagging your music. :-)

Thanks!
Pete

Doug Wise
2012-02-26, 14:49
Here is how my workflow has evolved over the years as far as editing tags:

I update the Album, Artist, Genre, Title, Track and Year tags with MP3Tag
I delete all other tags with MP3Tag
I use Foobar2000 to scan and update tags for ReplayGain
I use MusicIP to scan and update the tags for Music IP

Doug


On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 4:30 PM, pjs <
pjs.58ka7b1330291921 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:

>
> OK, thanks to everyone for the really instructive responses. I now
> understand why I wasn't seeing the song artist being updated. It was
> the ol' Artist vs Album Artist issue. I had changed the Artist in the
> metadata, but I guess the "key" that's used when you browse "music by
> artist" is the Album Artist, not the Artist.
>
> Actually, that brings up a good point. If we have a compilation
> album:
>
> Album: No Alternative
> 01. Superdeformed (Artist = Matthew Sweet, Album Artist = Various
> Artists)
> 02. For All to See (Artist = Buffalo Tom, Album Artist = Various
> Artists)
> ...
> 19. Verse Chorus Verse (Artist = Nirvana, Album Artist = Various
> Artists)
>
> If I browse the Squeezebox by Artist, I definitely do not want to see a
> million "Various Artists" under "V". So I think we'd want the
> Squeezebox to display "Artist", not "Album Artist" in this case.
>
> If we have an artist who has recorded albums under different names:
>
> Surfing On Sine Waves (Artist = Aphex Twin, Album Artist = Polygon
> Window)
> Analogue Bubblebath 3 (Artist = Aphex Twin, Album Artist = AFX)
> Joyrex J9ii (Artist = Aphex Twin, Album Artist = Caustic
> Window)
> Rushup Edge (Artist = Aphex Twin, Album Artist = The Tuss)
> Richard D. James Album (Artist = Aphex Twin, Album Artist = Aphex
> Twin)
>
> I think I'd prefer to see all this under Aphex Twin, the Artist, since
> this makes navigation with the Squeezebox remote much easier.
>
> In both cases where there's a distinction between Artist and Album
> Artist, I think I prefer Artist. Is there a way to make the importer
> use the Artist as the key and not Album Artist?
>
> Other for our own personal knowledge, is there ever a time when Album
> Artist is useful for tagging music? I really don't care about the fact
> that, say, an album was put out by "Frank Black" or "Frank Black and the
> Catholics", although I *do* care if it's "Frank Black" or "Pixies".
>
> I know this is pretty anal, and I apologize, but I'm sure many of you
> must be as anal as me with tagging your music. :-)
>
> Thanks!
> Pete
>
>
> --
> pjs
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> pjs's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32020
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93812
>
>

aubuti
2012-02-26, 16:09
OK, thanks to everyone for the really instructive responses. I now understand why I wasn't seeing the song artist being updated. It was the ol' Artist vs Album Artist issue. I had changed the Artist in the metadata, but I guess the "key" that's used when you browse "music by artist" is the Album Artist, not the Artist.

<snip>

I know this is pretty anal, and I apologize, but I'm sure many of you must be as anal as me with tagging your music. :-)
The real question is, should anal-retentive be hyphenated or not?

Here is how I would tag the two examples you give.

1) Album: No Alternative
01. Superdeformed (Artist = Matthew Sweet, Album Artist = [empty], compilation=1)
02. For All to See (Artist = Buffalo Tom, Album Artist = [empty], compilation=1)
...
19. Verse Chorus Verse (Artist = Nirvana, Album Artist = [empty], compilation=1)

If you do it this way, you won't see a million "Various Artists" under V. I only ever use ALBUMARTIST on compilations if (a) it's an album with one performer who is on every (or almost every) track and a lot of guest artists, such as an album of duets, or (b) a tribute album, with a lot of different artists playing songs of a particular composer or group. Otherwise I think the concept of albumartist doesn't make a whole lot of sense for multi-artist compilations.


2) If we have an artist who has recorded albums under different names (I think I'd prefer to see all this under Aphex Twin, the Artist, since this makes navigation with the Squeezebox remote much easier.):
Surfing On Sine Waves (Artist = Polygon Window, Album Artist = Aphex Twin)
Analogue Bubblebath 3 (Artist = AFX, Album Artist = Aphex Twin)
Joyrex J9ii (Artist = Caustic Window, Album Artist = Aphex Twin)
Rushup Edge (Artist = The Tuss, Album Artist = Aphex Twin)
Richard D. James Album (Artist = Aphex Twin, Album Artist = Aphex Twin)

Yes, that's right, exactly the opposite of what you have now (except maybe the 5th one). LMS will group all of them together under the ALBUMARTIST Aphex Twin when you are browsing, but when something is playing it will display the ARTIST tag in Now Playing, so you see which incarnation of RDJ you're listening to.

JJZolx
2012-02-26, 17:35
If we have a compilation album:

Album: No Alternative
01. Superdeformed (Artist = Matthew Sweet, Album Artist = Various Artists)
02. For All to See (Artist = Buffalo Tom, Album Artist = Various Artists)
...
19. Verse Chorus Verse (Artist = Nirvana, Album Artist = Various Artists)

If I browse the Squeezebox by Artist, I definitely do not want to see a million "Various Artists" under "V". So I think we'd want the Squeezebox to display "Artist", not "Album Artist" in this case.

You won't see a million artists under 'V', but you will see all of your compilation albums under 'V' and 'Various Artists'.

Play with it a while longer and see how it works for you, but it's generally best to not give compilation albums an ALBUMARTIST of 'Various Artists'. It's best to tag them with a COMPILATION=1 field and leave the ALBUMARTIST field off of these albums. It's a _long_ story why, but for now just call it a quirk of how the server handles compilations.




If we have an artist who has recorded albums under different names:

Surfing On Sine Waves (Artist = Aphex Twin, Album Artist = Polygon Window)
Analogue Bubblebath 3 (Artist = Aphex Twin, Album Artist = AFX)
Joyrex J9ii (Artist = Aphex Twin, Album Artist = Caustic Window)
Rushup Edge (Artist = Aphex Twin, Album Artist = The Tuss)
Richard D. James Album (Artist = Aphex Twin, Album Artist = Aphex Twin)

I think I'd prefer to see all this under Aphex Twin, the Artist, since this makes navigation with the Squeezebox remote much easier.

In both cases where there's a distinction between Artist and Album Artist, I think I prefer Artist. Is there a way to make the importer use the Artist as the key and not Album Artist?


If you tag them like that, the albums will be listed under 'Aphex Twin' when you browse by artist. When browsing artists, an album can appear under many different artists. When browsing albums sorted by artist, however, the album only appears once in the list. If you want it under 'Aphex Twin' then you need to either set ALBUMARTIST to 'Aphex Twin' or else leave off the ALBUMARTIST tag. As you've correctly figured out, ALBUMARTIST takes precedence over ARTIST as the album's artist, both for sorting and for display purposes.

Edit: See aubuti's advice. I don't tag my library like that, but it may be a workaround to the problem, depending on how you want albums sorted when they're sorted by artist. If an _album_ is by a group called 'Polygon Winow' I want to see that. With aubuti's suggestion all of the albums will be grouped under 'Aphex Twins' when you're browsing albums sorted by artitst.


Other for our own personal knowledge, is there ever a time when Album Artist is useful for tagging music? I really don't care about the fact that, say, an album was put out by "Frank Black" or "Frank Black and the Catholics", although I *do* care if it's "Frank Black" or "Pixies".

I don't use it like that. I tag all Tom Petty albums with 'Tom Petty', regardless of whether or not he recorded the album with the Heartbreakers. What I do use ALBUMARTIST for is albums that have tracks with guest artists, whether performing by themselves or with the album artist.

MrSinatra
2012-02-29, 13:58
one of the problems with server imo, is that you can't switch easily on the fly between browsing just album artists, or all artists.

in any case, i put an album artist on everything. for comps, sometimes its "Various Artists" but sometimes its "Soundtrack (Film)" or something like that. i basically feel like you in that i don't want all the comps i have given one default label.

its really debatable if server even needs to know something is a comp or not, but for the sake of itunes users i have added explicit comp tags to my files, which over-rides the AA tag for comp status.

these links might shed some light on things for you:

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Various_Artists_logic

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Compilations

emalvick
2012-03-01, 15:32
its really debatable if server even needs to know something is a comp or not, but for the sake of itunes users i have added explicit comp tags to my files, which over-rides the AA tag for comp status.


Does it really over-ride the AA tag in terms of browsing, though? Back at one point while messing with the comp tag, if I had a comp tag + AA (AA not equal to VA) the album would show up both under the AA and under the VA (Compilations) menu... i.e. it seemed they were given equal browsing. That could have changed though (my experience was back at 7.3 days).

As for the OP... I think you need to mess around a bit with what you have and test it out to make sense. THere is really no one right way to tag your music, just what's right for you.

Given your examples, you might mess around with a small library of just your Aphex Twin related music and a few other compilation type albums and set up the tags until you find what you like and go from there.

Do check out those links in Mr. Sinatra's post because there are possible quirks that can occur due to the Compilation and Various Artists logic that you might as well be aware of. That's where the earlier suggestion of leaving AA blank for compilations maybe the better method, although I personally don't do that.

garym
2012-03-01, 15:46
Does it really over-ride the AA tag in terms of browsing, though? Back at one point while messing with the comp tag, if I had a comp tag + AA (AA not equal to VA) the album would show up both under the AA and under the VA (Compilations) menu... i.e. it seemed they were given equal browsing. That could have changed though (my experience was back at 7.3 days).

hmmmm, I think that if I have a compilation with an AA tag, it shows up under both the VA(comp) menu and under the Artist listing (AA name), but only if the AA name is an artist that has at least one other album in my database (i.e., other than the comp album). Artists that show up under compilations only (no other albums) don't show up under artist listings (if I have compilations grouped together checked in settings).

MrSinatra
2012-03-02, 11:07
Does it really over-ride the AA tag in terms of browsing, though? Back at one point while messing with the comp tag, if I had a comp tag + AA (AA not equal to VA) the album would show up both under the AA and under the VA (Compilations) menu... i.e. it seemed they were given equal browsing. That could have changed though (my experience was back at 7.3 days).

right, thats the expected behavior. if you hadn't added a comp tag, then it would show up ONLY under the AA tag, and not the server VA category, b/c to server it isn't a comp.

since AA tags mean to server something isn't a comp, (which i think is an incredibly stupid assumption to make, but thats what server does), the explicit comp tag over-rides it, and you get the album in both places.

gary, i don't think what ur talking about applies here... i have things that have AA tags that aren't artist tags that show up, like "Soundtrack (Film)" if it is the AA tag and has a comp tag, it will be in both places, A tags don't apply.

garym
2012-03-02, 12:47
gary, i don't think what ur talking about applies here... i have things that have AA tags that aren't artist tags that show up, like "Soundtrack (Film)" if it is the AA tag and has a comp tag, it will be in both places, A tags don't apply.

ah yes. got it.