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View Full Version : Do not list compilation albums under srtist?



verypsb
2011-12-04, 01:55
Is it possible to NOT list compilation albums under a featured artist? I don't like that some artists seem to have many albums, but in fact only have 1 album, and are featured on many compilation albums. The list is long, but should only show 1 album. Or the compilation albums should be grouped together under a featured artist like 'Also featured on:" or something like that.

Mnyb
2011-12-04, 02:20
There is a setting for this

"Group compilation albums together"

verypsb
2011-12-04, 02:24
This setting only removes the artists from the browse list, not the compilation albums from the featured artist...
If I have only 1 album from an artist, but this artist is featured on 10 compilations, the album list under the artist will show 11 albums. I only want to see the album by the artist. (or the album by the artist listed on top, and all other albums grouped together using: "Also featured on")

Mnyb
2011-12-04, 02:27
Ok , is there not a bug/enhancement req created already ?

I would be happy if the real albums where at the top of the list

verypsb
2011-12-04, 02:29
Where's my album by a-ha? Oh yes, it's the one that doesn't show a-ha as an artist. That's intuitive, isn't it?

verypsb
2011-12-04, 02:32
Ok , is there not a bug/enhancement req created already ?

I would be happy if the real albums where at the top of the list

I couldn't find it...

Mnyb
2011-12-04, 02:41
You must love hit's compilations :)

I can see the problem if one have many such compilations , it's completely insane !

I assume all you artist with top100 appeal looks similar.

So there is a way to see the "real" albums the one that not having the artist name .

A quick fix for the devs would be to put the real ones on top thats not rockets science .

Building an "also featured on...." menu could be done later 7.7.2 ?

verypsb
2011-12-04, 02:53
Yes, it's mostly a problem with artists popular by a wide audience. The more obscure artists don't suffer from this problem. :-)

JJZolx
2011-12-04, 03:04
Is it possible to NOT list compilation albums under a featured artist? I don't like that some artists seem to have many albums, but in fact only have 1 album, and are featured on many compilation albums. The list is long, but should only show 1 album. Or the compilation albums should be grouped together under a featured artist like 'Also featured on:" or something like that.

No, it's not possible. There has been some discussion about doing the latter, but I don't expect it any time soon.

JJZolx
2011-12-04, 03:08
Where's my album by a-ha? Oh yes, it's the one that doesn't show a-ha as an artist. That's intuitive, isn't it?

What you're seeing is a bug that's existed since 7.6 was released. When you browse by an artist and they appear on someone else's album, they're listed as the album artist. The one album is shown without an album artist because normally it would be redundant when you're browsing that artist's albums. It should only show the album artist when it's someone else.

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17542

I have no idea why this hasn't been fixed yet. Hasn't even been assigned to anyone.

Mnyb
2011-12-04, 03:13
No, it's not possible. There has been some discussion about doing the latter, but I don't expect it any time soon.

Is it technically hard to do ?

compilation is known , I can see a corner case with compilations by the artist.

verypsb
2011-12-04, 03:21
Is it technically hard to do ?

compilation is known , I can see a corner case with compilations by the artist.

I would be happy if a compilation album by an artist would be listed under that artist. Even if that compiltion features other artists. It's a problem you can address using the Album Artist tag.

JJZolx
2011-12-04, 03:25
I can see a corner case with compilations by the artist.

Such an album isn't a 'compilation' in the sense that Squeezebox Server uses. And an album with an album artist also isn't a compilation.

verypsb
2011-12-04, 04:37
I only want to see the album by the artist. (or the album by the artist listed on top, and all other albums grouped together using: "Also featured on")

The more I think about it the preferable way to correcting this situation is adding an "Also featured on" / "Appears on" menu under the featured artist.

garym
2011-12-04, 07:11
And an album with an album artist also isn't a compilation.

Unless one adds a COMPILATION = 1 to such album. Then it shows up grouped under Compilations for me....

emalvick
2011-12-05, 09:36
Such an album isn't a 'compilation' in the sense that Squeezebox Server uses. And an album with an album artist also isn't a compilation.

This is always a hazy area, which is why I doubt we'll see the one best fix. Saying an that because there is an Album Artist, Compilation = 0 (which is what is assumed by Squeezebox) is a bit of a disservice. Of course, we can manually set Compilation = 1.

Ideally, the logic would be a bit more inteligent. For instance, if a track artist exists on all tracks on an album, even if they aren't the only track artist, then this type of album should be treated as Compilation = 0. Album Artist should not fall into the equation of what is a compilation or not.

I know we've had these discussions before, but it is just screwy, and it doesn't help that there are a lot of bugs out there. I appreciate the fact that you are very aware of the bugs and their numbers. I vote for them, but as a pessimist, I assume they'll never be fixed. Then again, I see these bugs popping up for a lot more people, so perhaps there is hope.

JJZolx
2011-12-05, 10:59
This is always a hazy area, which is why I doubt we'll see the one best fix. Saying an that because there is an Album Artist, Compilation = 0 (which is what is assumed by Squeezebox) is a bit of a disservice.

Like you say, the debate has gone on forever, but why is it a 'disservice' to say that if an album has an ALBUMARTIST that it's not a compilation?

The only thing that being a compilation really does is tells the server to credit the album to the pseudo-albumartist 'Various Artists'. If you want to override that, and override the logic that determines compilation albums, then it's a means to doing so. Merely adding COMPILATION=0 to such an album leaves you with one very large problem: Who's album is it when there are multiple artists on the tracks?


Of course, we can manually set Compilation = 1.

You can, but it should have little or no effect. If you want a compilation album to be credited to some other particular artist then what does _also_ saying that it's a compilation accomplish? Do you want it to be grouped with 'Various Artists' despite being credited to someone? I could see that, but I can't understand why anyone would want it.


Ideally, the logic would be a bit more inteligent. For instance, if a track artist exists on all tracks on an album, even if they aren't the only track artist, then this type of album should be treated as Compilation = 0.

There is no TRACKARTIST tag. Are you saying that the server should evaluate the artist list from every track on an album, and that if it sees a common artist on all tracks, then the album should be considered a non-compilation credited to that common artist? A) That's a fairly tall order that I expect would slow down scanning substantially. B) I doubt that there's any software out there that does this. C) What happens when an album has, say, one track by a guest artist on which the main artist doesn't appear? Then it gets marked as a compilation anyway.

garym
2011-12-05, 11:16
If you want a compilation album to be credited to some other particular artist then what does _also_ saying that it's a compilation accomplish? Do you want it to be grouped with 'Various Artists' despite being credited to someone? I could see that, but I can't understand why anyone would want it.


As an aside, my current approach is to NOT add an "Album Artist" to my compilations. I leave this blank UNLESS I want the comp album to be credited to a certain artist. For example, I want my Gram Parsons Tribute Album to show up under the artist listing for Gram Parsons, so I add "Gram Parsons" as album artist. And all comp albums are identified with COMPILAtION = 1.

In Settings, I have the compilations showing up under "Compilations". Without the VA Album Artist tag, this makes my VA listing much cleaner (i.e., the few CDs I have where they are truly VA, but not really compilations....I know that sounds confusing).

For other nonComp CDs, I don't use Album Artist unless:

1. there is at least one track with an additional/different track artist (so that album doesn't get treated as Compilation by SB)
2. I want the album to show up under a generic artist name rather than the specific name (Neil Young as AA even though "Neil Young & Crazy Horse" as Track Artist.

For me, this all works well with SB, with foobar2000, and with itunes (when I create a mirror mp3 directory for use there).

emalvick
2011-12-05, 16:27
Like you say, the debate has gone on forever, but why is it a 'disservice' to say that if an album has an ALBUMARTIST that it's not a compilation?

The only thing that being a compilation really does is tells the server to credit the album to the pseudo-albumartist 'Various Artists'. If you want to override that, and override the logic that determines compilation albums, then it's a means to doing so. Merely adding COMPILATION=0 to such an album leaves you with one very large problem: Who's album is it when there are multiple artists on the tracks?

Well, generally:

1. If an album is not a compilation I do have an ALBUM ARTIST

2. However, just because I have an ALBUM ARTIST doesn't mean it isn't a compilation.

As the previous poster mentioned, if I have tribute albums, I want them to be posted under an ALBUM ARTIST that is grouped with the artist the album is a tribute to... In my own setup a tribute album to Bob Dylan has ALBUM ARTIST = Bob Dylan (Tribute).... I don't want them under Bob Dylan directly either.




You can, but it should have little or no effect. If you want a compilation album to be credited to some other particular artist then what does _also_ saying that it's a compilation accomplish? Do you want it to be grouped with 'Various Artists' despite being credited to someone? I could see that, but I can't understand why anyone would want it.

Per my previous example. Just because it is a tribute album doesn't mean I don't want to find it under Various Artists. Afterall, tribute albums are compilations. Finding it as a compilation also gives those who don't want the track artists cluttering up their collection the option to keep that from happening. You may not want it, I don't really care since I use Custom Browse, but some people don't.



There is no TRACKARTIST tag. Are you saying that the server should evaluate the artist list from every track on an album, and that if it sees a common artist on all tracks, then the album should be considered a non-compilation credited to that common artist? A) That's a fairly tall order that I expect would slow down scanning substantially. B) I doubt that there's any software out there that does this. C) What happens when an album has, say, one track by a guest artist on which the main artist doesn't appear? Then it gets marked as a compilation anyway.

I understand there is no Track Artist tag but there appears to be a track artist entry in the DB and it is the only way to talk about the actual ARTIST tag without the ambiguity that goes with the server grouping ALBUMARTIST (and the variations of the tag; BAND, ALBUM ARTIST, etc).

A) As for identifying the song artists, why should it not be able to do that? It is already doing that by identifying compilations based on the artists NOT being the same on an album. It shouldn't slow down scanning substantially, and even if it slows it down is it going to render the software useless? I don't scan that often. Doubling the scanning time wouldn't kill the usability of the server/device.

B) Why should I care if no software does it? There's a thing called innovation. Heck, if it wasn't for innovation, we wouldn't have our Squeezeboxes at all.

C)I wasn't being absolute... I was throwing out an idea. The logic could easily dismiss an album being a compilation if an artist was present on 90% of the tracks or 80% of the tracks. I don't know what the answer would be.

Ultimately, a user would still have the option of over-riding the settings to their liking.

As it is, in my own system, I had to set the ALBUMARTIST tags to VARIOUS ARTISTS for all my compilations because my previous software(s) didn't have the sophistication to know what a compilation was or a COMPILATION tag, and in fact I didn't know what a COMPILATION tag was until I had to troubleshoot my own problems with the Squeezebox software and Various Artists tags (thanks to people like yourself and others on this forum).

I can respect your points of view, and if I had started my tagging efforts with this software and this system only, I'd probably have adopted them. But I haven't, and I am not going to change it to fit something that really doesn't have one right answer anyway.

The ambiguity we have has made for a fuzzy situation, but it is what allows us to do what we want with our music and tags.

JJZolx
2011-12-05, 19:54
2. However, just because I have an ALBUM ARTIST doesn't mean it isn't a compilation.

As the previous poster mentioned, if I have tribute albums, I want them to be posted under an ALBUM ARTIST that is grouped with the artist the album is a tribute to... In my own setup a tribute album to Bob Dylan has ALBUM ARTIST = Bob Dylan (Tribute).... I don't want them under Bob Dylan directly either.

Per my previous example. Just because it is a tribute album doesn't mean I don't want to find it under Various Artists. Afterall, tribute albums are compilations. Finding it as a compilation also gives those who don't want the track artists cluttering up their collection the option to keep that from happening. You may not want it, I don't really care since I use Custom Browse, but some people don't.

There's a point at which this manipulation becomes absurd. It's like insisting that the Cheerios be found in the produce section of the supermarket and found under a sign that says 'Dairy'.

If you can induce this particular behavior, that's fine, but don't expect it to become a part of the software spec. I can guarantee that the behavior is unintended, and if it were to break tomorrow, few people would care.

verypsb
2011-12-06, 00:10
Please, don't make this another "How to tag compilations" or "Squeezeboxserver should do this or that with compilations" thread...

garym
2011-12-06, 03:44
Please, don't make this another "How to tag compilations" or "Squeezeboxserver should do this or that with compilations" thread...

True, there are already a thousand pages of threads on this issue if one searches the forum.

emalvick
2011-12-06, 08:21
There's a point at which this manipulation becomes absurd. It's like insisting that the Cheerios be found in the produce section of the supermarket and found under a sign that says 'Dairy'.

If you can induce this particular behavior, that's fine, but don't expect it to become a part of the software spec. I can guarantee that the behavior is unintended, and if it were to break tomorrow, few people would care.

Few people would care or just you wouldn't care? There is a difference, but you don't seem to recognize this.

If flexibility can be made than it should be... I work in databases. It can be done, and that which can make life easy for the most people, is what should be done. A system should be made to work for you, for me, and for anyone else. It isn't about one feature that works for a lot of people, it's about making features that can work for everyone.

Your analogy to real products is what is absurd. Information is not real products. Many databases have many-to-many features that allow just what you talk about. Haven't you ever gone to a grocery store to find one product but realize it could be in two or more places? Haven't you ever gone to a specific aisle only to find that the product is not where you thought it should be?

There is nothing wrong with putting things in multiple places if it can be done. Heck, you've probably used shortcuts before in your OS. Open your mind a bit.

Mnyb
2011-12-06, 09:12
I lost track of the discussion :confused:

But why not put normal albums on top in artist/albums

Then "compilations" under or in a submenu as sugested by the op .

Or if thats completely impossible , just remove them you will find them anyway in VA or albums or by search . But it's neat to also find them under each artist if it not where for the total mess it is now.

Then the eternal question " what exactly is a compilation " and other details can have thier own treads.

Philip Meyer
2011-12-06, 14:10
>Ok , is there not a bug/enhancement req created already ?
Over the years, I'm sure there have been several enhancement requests raised.

There's this one: http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12676

also mentioned on http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4754

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4341 from 2006!

Probably others...

Phil

Philip Meyer
2011-12-06, 14:47
Parking the discussion about how to tag albums, what really matters here is how browsing the content of the library could be improved.

When displaying albums for a chosen artist, it is easy to determine for each album whether it is a compilation or not, so it must be fairly easy to sort by compilation ascending (non-comps first, comps last). Would need to treat Compilation=null and 0 as the same value for sorting, but that's easy. A minor tweak to an Order By statement could achieve that.

SBS can order by artist, album, which means compilations should be listed together by "Various Artists" (or whatever). So this isn't a million miles away. Problem is if a user want to order by album title, year or genre. They would still like non-comps first, and then artist, album title, year or genre. So just add a order by ISNULL(compilation,0) clause before the chosen order mode.

Better still would be to group the albums that have compilation=1 to list them under a sub-item. This would affect multiple user interfaces, so is probably more work (at least in testing), and likely to break third-party apps (iPeng, etc) to some degree.

It is also easy to determine albums that the artist has been involved on where the artist is not the main artist (or album artist).

Appearances on compilations and as a track artist on non-compilations could be sorted or grouped in separate sections or combined in one section. Not too bothered either way.

Mushroom_3
2011-12-07, 08:58
This may be my addled memory playing up, but I seem to remember not so long ago when browsing Artist; the albums by that artist used to be listed before any compilations he/she/it featured in. If so, why fix something that wasn't broke!

verypsb
2011-12-07, 09:24
Are you trying to say the latest LMS versions behave differently than older SBS versions?

Mushroom_3
2011-12-07, 11:04
Are you trying to say the latest LMS versions behave differently than older SBS versions?

I think they do.

Philip Meyer
2011-12-07, 11:46
>This may be my addled memory playing up, but I seem to remember not so
>long ago when browsing Artist; the albums by that artist used to be
>listed before any compilations he/she/it featured in. If so, why fix
>something that wasn't broke!
That depends on your chosen sort order. By default, it is album title order, irrespective of whether each album is a normal or compilation album.
If you change your sort order to "artist, album", then most often perhaps your compilations (by Various Artists) will be listed at the bottom (for artists that start with a letter < V)?

I'm not aware of any changes to the way that albums are ordered for SBS 7.6 or LMS 7.7, although I really haven't played much with either of these versions.

Phil

Mushroom_3
2011-12-07, 13:35
>

If you change your sort order to "artist, album", then most often perhaps your compilations (by Various Artists) will be listed at the bottom (for artists that start with a letter < V)?

I'm not aware of any changes to the way that albums are ordered for SBS 7.6 or LMS 7.7, although I really haven't played much with either of these versions.

Phil

Now I'm really confused - I just tried that and nothing changed.
Obviously just going to have to live with it.

verypsb
2011-12-07, 13:37
Well, I don't want to live with this absurd behaviour...

aubuti
2011-12-07, 14:06
Well, I don't want to live with this absurd behaviour...
I realize that euthanasia laws are liberal in the Netherlands, but that really does seem to be taking this hobby a little too seriously....

verypsb
2011-12-07, 14:32
lmaorotf