PDA

View Full Version : Good Squeezebox alternative?



verypsb
2011-10-23, 00:35
Hi,

Does anybody know a good Squeezebox alternative? I'm not really confident that the Logitech Squeezebox lineup will last much longer. Important features (to me):

.flac support
hi-res support
Something like SugarCube

I've taken a look at Sonos, but it doesn't tick all the boxes, and the real problem: It has a library limit of 65.000, which can be as low as 40.000 if you use extensive tags. The Windows Media Player workaround doesn't work, it can't use .flac files.

Mnyb
2011-10-23, 00:53
For local files it will work as long as your hardware is ok, the system can be used as it is even if logitech shutter the operation. And the server is open source.
So you won't need new players untill they break.

However the mysqueezebox.com service depends on logitech :-/

I've found nothing else like it there is no other system that can for example sync two players with 24/96 content.

The combination of very good UI via iPad apps multiroom and hifi and radio services at the same time makes the squeezeboxes one of a kind imo .

verypsb
2011-10-23, 01:09
Another option I use often. Sync between players. I forgot that one. I've looked before but I haven't found a good alternative to Squeezebox.

erland
2011-10-23, 02:28
Does anybody know a good Squeezebox alternative? I'm not really confident that the Logitech Squeezebox lineup will last much longer.

While I sometimes share your doubts regarding Squeezebox future I also have to say that currently the only competitors I can see with a more clear future is:
- Sonos
- Apple

Apple is focused more at usability and simplicity than high-end audio so in my mind it means that if you want something that supports high end audio and you want to be reasonable sure it will work also in the future, your choices are Squeezebox or Sonos or some new competitor we aren't aware of yet.

There are of course HiFi manufacturers, but those tend to be focused a bit too much on the audio quality for my personal taste so they are missing other features of the system, like smart playlists, usability and support for premium streaming services.

I think there are several of other competitors out there but none of them has so far showed a strategy to indicate we can be sure they are still in the music streaming business two years in the future.

In my mind, the Squeezebox hardware is great so at the moment I don't really see a need for something else on the hardware side, at least not as long as you are willing to run a local server on a computer.

The lacking side of the Squeezebox hardware is more related to people interested in players with built-in speakers or built-in server.

My guess is that when Logitech decides to stop selling Squeezeboxes, they will need to maintain and support mysqueezebox.com for at least 1-2 years after that, else they will somehow have to handle the fact that they recently have sold players to customers that no longer works even if they are still under warranty.

amcluesent
2011-10-23, 03:28
Could be that the company supplying the streaming 'engine' to, amongst others, Musical Fidelity and Pro-ject gains traction.

Mnyb
2011-10-23, 04:14
Sooloos ,if they not where so clunky and super expensive and there is no radio devices just boxes for conecting to hifi

jo-wie
2011-10-23, 04:26
Eventually Raumfeld by Teufel?

http://www.teufelaudio.co.uk/

Pascal Hibon
2011-10-23, 05:15
I have been looking too for an SB replacement but haven’t found one yet. I even bought a Sonos ZP90 several months ago to try the system. Sonos lacks a lot of basic functionally that SB had since many years. If your used the SB system then Sonos is not an option. In the mean time I have sold my ZP90.

Another one I looked at is Cambridge Audio’s NP30 http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=604 . This one seems to come close but due to its price I haven’t tested it yet. The only downside I see is that it uses UPnP. To be honest I have no experience with that but I’m afraid that UPnP is not ideal for large music libraries. Apart from that it still looks like a decent candidate to me (I should mention that I don’t use synchronised players).

verypsb
2011-10-23, 12:41
Eventually Raumfeld by Teufel?

http://www.teufelaudio.co.uk/

Looks like an option. Has anyone any experience with these devices?

castalla
2011-10-23, 12:46
Cambridge NP30 - a friend HAD one. He said it was overpriced rubbish. Most of his critical posts on various boards have been censored/removed. Avoid.

JJZolx
2011-10-23, 13:19
Does anybody know a good Squeezebox alternative? I'm not really confident that the Logitech Squeezebox lineup will last much longer.

What's the difference whether or not it does? The software works, the players work. If Logitech closed down tomorrow, all of the Squeezeboxes in my house would still be playing music and will probably do so for years.

Kuben72
2011-10-23, 13:25
How about Olive 03HD?

slate
2011-10-23, 13:34
Simple Audio... a Sonos like brand fishing for the pod people
http://simpleaudio.co.uk/overview

pski
2011-10-23, 15:20
What's the difference whether or not it does? The software works, the players work. If Logitech closed down tomorrow, all of the Squeezeboxes in my house would still be playing music and will probably do so for years.

+++ DOS still works and some people need it

Hardware issues can be addressed by eBay.

For those not willing to succumb to the apple 'verse, it works.

Pascal Hibon
2011-10-24, 00:13
Cambridge NP30 - a friend HAD one. He said it was overpriced rubbish. Most of his critical posts on various boards have been censored/removed. Avoid.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of issues / remarks did your friend have?
I know there were some issues in the beginning but most of them are suppose to be resolved by firmware updates (new product type of issues...).

Pascal Hibon
2011-10-24, 00:18
Simple Audio... a Sonos like brand fishing for the pod people
http://simpleaudio.co.uk/overview

I’ve looked at Simple Audio as well. They look very simular to Sonos. I fear that the user experience will be similar than Sonos as well. Price wize, by the looks of it they will be quite expensive (+/- 650 GBP).
In all honesty I haven’t tested them myself.

verypsb
2011-10-24, 00:24
What's the difference whether or not it does? The software works, the players work. If Logitech closed down tomorrow, all of the Squeezeboxes in my house would still be playing music and will probably do so for years.

Yes, I know. It's more an uncomfortable feeling I get using an eol product. Nothing to do with common sense :-)

garym
2011-10-24, 04:34
Yes, I know. It's more an uncomfortable feeling I get using an eol product. Nothing to do with common sense :-)

all products other than raw food are probably eol products. That said, I still have my Apple II+ from 1979 and it works.....

This line of thought reminds me of people that tell me "I'm not buying a computer/smartphone because they'll be better/cheaper next year". Of course with that logic one would be in 2011 and never have owned a computer. ;-)

kc5f
2011-10-24, 05:30
If Logitech closed down tomorrow, all of the Squeezeboxes in my house would still be playing music and will probably do so for years.
Unfortunately, for those of us using msb, that wouldn't be the case. I don't have thousands of CD's to burn to a computer I'd want to leave running 24/7, and right now only listen to several services like last.fm and to online stations around the world.

The confusion about the future is a vicious circle for Logitech. I haven't bought new sb hardware in over a year, although I've been tempted. But if I have three devices that are going to be orphaned, why up it to four? So we're not buying because Logitech isn't providing, and they're not providing because we're afraid to buy...

garym
2011-10-24, 05:35
So we're not buying because Logitech isn't providing, and they're not providing because we're afraid to buy...

you've just described the problem with the US economy. ;-)
Consumers aren't spending because they are worried. Company's aren't hiring because consumers aren't spending....so consumers stay worried....

paul.raulerson
2011-10-24, 07:01
While I sometimes share your doubts regarding Squeezebox future I also have to say that currently the only competitors I can see with a more clear future is:
- Sonos
- Apple

Apple is focused more at usability and simplicity than high-end audio so in my mind it means that if you want something that supports high end audio and you want to be reasonable sure it will work also in the future, your choices are Squeezebox or Sonos or some new competitor we aren't aware of yet.

There are of course HiFi manufacturers, but those tend to be focused a bit too much on the audio quality for my personal taste so they are missing other features of the system, like smart playlists, usability and support for premium streaming services.

I think there are several of other competitors out there but none of them has so far showed a strategy to indicate we can be sure they are still in the music streaming business two years in the future.

In my mind, the Squeezebox hardware is great so at the moment I don't really see a need for something else on the hardware side, at least not as long as you are willing to run a local server on a computer.

The lacking side of the Squeezebox hardware is more related to people interested in players with built-in speakers or built-in server.

My guess is that when Logitech decides to stop selling Squeezeboxes, they will need to maintain and support mysqueezebox.com for at least 1-2 years after that, else they will somehow have to handle the fact that they recently have sold players to customers that no longer works even if they are still under warranty.

MMm- I looked at Sonos, and so far as I can tell, they are absolutely limited to 16/44.1K music sources (i.e. CD quality, nothing higher.)

The same problem applies to Apple's streaming solutions, at least right now. The Apple TV2+ could be a contender, but who knows where Apple will go with that? The Logitech competition for the Apple TV2 failed rather miserably, despite the support from Amazon and Google. Not laser focused like the Squeezebox Touch is.

Not sure what Meridian Soolos is limited to.

There are solutions for the Mac that work up to 24/192, and work very well. (i.e. Pure Music) But, those solutions are neither simple to setup or to operate.

I think where the competition for the Squeezebox may show up is in the Blu-ray players. Already players like Oppo have audiophile quality sound, and support streaming media. And more and more integrated amps and receivers are gaining either Airlplay or DNLA capabilities, or both. None of them have the focus on doing one or two things really well that the Touch does though.

If Logictech discontinues the Squeezebox line, it will be a shame, but it won't be long till replacements appear, probably with Squeezeslave and Squeezeplayer enhanced to support all the audiophile basics like Bit Perfect playback, automatic switching for sample rate/bit depth, etc.


-Paul

Mnyb
2011-10-24, 07:30
Sooloos is a closed system with expensive hardware supports 24/96 .

Limited support for online services, they have raphsody I think ? It's mostly for your own files, but it is clear that much of the future is streaming and services of different kinds , even if many audiophiles are not interested it gets the product a big consumer base and thus support the product .

And eventually you get hooked up to some service it's great to explore music and internet radio, everything is not high end all the time :)

paul.raulerson
2011-10-24, 07:46
Sooloos is a closed system with expensive hardware supports 24/96 .

Limited support for online services, they have raphsody I think ? It's mostly for your own files, but it is clear that much of the future is streaming and services of different kinds , even if many audiophiles are not interested it gets the product a big consumer base and thus support the product .

And eventually you get hooked up to some service it's great to explore music and internet radio, everything is not high end all the time :)

Most of the "hardcore" audiophiles I know subscribe to either Spotify, MOG, or both. Not so much for the music quality or lack thereof, but to get a preview of the music they want to buy.

If you like something on Spotify at 320kbs, you are almost certain to like it just as well on a CD at 16/44.1 for $10/$12.

And if you are going to fork out $17-$30 bucks for a highres version of something, then you really want to know you are going to like the music first.

Spotify or MOG at 320kbs does not sound bad at all. Especially when $10 lets me preview or listen to dozens of albums, and target my music buying dollars to much better effect. :)

signor_rossi
2011-10-24, 08:10
Unfortunately, for those of us using msb, that wouldn't be the case. I don't have thousands of CD's to burn to a computer I'd want to leave running 24/7, and right now only listen to several services like last.fm and to online stations around the world.

The confusion about the future is a vicious circle for Logitech. I haven't bought new sb hardware in over a year, although I've been tempted. But if I have three devices that are going to be orphaned, why up it to four? So we're not buying because Logitech isn't providing, and they're not providing because we're afraid to buy...

You could always go the plug-computer route as a drop-in to replace msb.com should the need arise, it is a diy solution and needs time to setup and administer of course, but power consumption is low.

Mnyb
2011-10-24, 08:35
streaming is an area that logitech is not so behind at all, even if some people always whine that [ insert obscure service here ] is not suported . Due to lack of dev manpower it can take some time to get there.
that market moves quickly so it needs attention constantly....

for the nordic countries there is basically wimp or spotify and squeezebox supports both :) I have only spotify at the moment.

But that whole market is in a flux, whats next ? Thats is the long time problem can logitech keep up with a skelleton crew of people :-/ let's say if they keep the server more or less as is and tries to add interesting services as they emerge ?

jimwillsher
2011-10-25, 07:14
My 3 x SB3 and my Boom are the most-used appliances in my whole house! I'm absolutely delighted with them, and can't believe others are looking to replace them! Please, if you find an alternative, sell me your SB3! I want another SB3 but can't find them for love nor money. I've no need for Touch, I just want an SB3!

And yes, my players are synched :-)



Jim

verypsb
2011-10-25, 07:40
Well, it looks there's no (real) compitition to Squeezebox! :-)

gruntwolla
2011-10-25, 07:43
Forgive me if I'm being naive here, but if paranoia becomes reality, couldn't a third party take over the running of mysqueezebox.com. If the new third party were seen to be committed to r&d, then would people not be willing to pay a modest annual subscription?,

Trev

erland
2011-10-25, 09:12
Forgive me if I'm being naive here, but if paranoia becomes reality, couldn't a third party take over the running of mysqueezebox.com.

Sure, but it would require patched firmware as I think the hostname to mysqueezebox.com is hard coded in the device firmware at the moment. Which is easy to do on the Radio, Touch but a bit more complex for the older models.



If the new third party were seen to be committed to r&d, then would people not be willing to pay a modest annual subscription?,

Unlikely, people are expecting it to be free, they are paying for the premium services (Spotify, Rhapsody, ...) and mysqueezebox.com just gives them access to the services without having a local server. Many mysqueezebox.com users are currently only using the free internet radio stations reachable through mysqueezebox.com, so they are currently not paying a dime and probably want it to be free also in the future. Some people might be willing to pay but most are just going to continue expecting Logitech to provide it for free.

Of course, it all depends on the annual subscription fee, but I suspect it's hard to reach enough users who are willing to pay for it to make a profit.
How many would pay $5 per month for mysqueezebox.com ?
How many would even pay $12 per year for mysqueezebox.com ?
How many are going to pay anything at all as long as Logitech provides mysqueezebox.com for free (even if it's not as reliable as most people would like) ?
What will it cost to host a high reliability solution like mysqueezebox.com ?
How many full time developers are going to be required to get everyone to pay an annual subscription fee ?

It's probably fairly easy to reach 10% of the users (mostly through people on this forum), the hard part is to reach the other 90% which are required to make a profit.

I personally suspect the profit has to come from hardware sales, pretty much in similar fashion as Logitech handles it at the moment.

gruntwolla
2011-10-25, 11:27
Sure, but it would require patched firmware as I think the hostname to mysqueezebox.com is hard coded in the device firmware at the moment. Which is easy to do on the Radio, Touch but a bit more complex for the older models.


Unlikely, people are expecting it to be free, they are paying for the premium services (Spotify, Rhapsody, ...) and mysqueezebox.com just gives them access to the services without having a local server. Many mysqueezebox.com users are currently only using the free internet radio stations reachable through mysqueezebox.com, so they are currently not paying a dime and probably want it to be free also in the future. Some people might be willing to pay but most are just going to continue expecting Logitech to provide it for free.

Of course, it all depends on the annual subscription fee, but I suspect it's hard to reach enough users who are willing to pay for it to make a profit.
How many would pay $5 per month for mysqueezebox.com ?
How many would even pay $12 per year for mysqueezebox.com ?
How many are going to pay anything at all as long as Logitech provides mysqueezebox.com for free (even if it's not as reliable as most people would like) ?
What will it cost to host a high reliability solution like mysqueezebox.com ?
How many full time developers are going to be required to get everyone to pay an annual subscription fee ?

It's probably fairly easy to reach 10% of the users (mostly through people on this forum), the hard part is to reach the other 90% which are required to make a profit.

I personally suspect the profit has to come from hardware sales, pretty much in similar fashion as Logitech handles it at the moment.

OK lets assume 2 things

a the complexity issue can be resolved
b Logitech want out.

Logitech could then offer all current and potential squeezebox users the choice of using the players to purely play music from local libraries, or signing up to a ( hopefully) classy,well run,regularly updated, and most importantly, bug free modern equivalent to mysqueezebox.com

For new customers, the site could be free for the first year. For existing users, 12 months notice could be given before the introduction of the charge.

If the site is professional and slick from the beginning, and the initial cost of setting it up funded by Logitech, then the whole thing could be presented in a very poitive light.

As to the cost of actually running it, and what the annual/monthly charge would have to be, I have no idea, but if the open source ethos of the original slimdevice could be maintained, then it could be affordable, and actually be a selling point.

JJZolx
2011-10-25, 11:53
As to the cost of actually running it, and what the annual/monthly charge would have to be, I have no idea, but if the open source ethos of the original slimdevice could be maintained, then it could be affordable, and actually be a selling point.

It can't be cheap, with space in three datacenters and bandwidth, plus hardware and personnel costs to keep it up and running (which apparently is quite a chore). I wouldn't be surprised to see MySqueezebox.com shut down sometime after Logitech pulls the last of the Squeezebox line.

erland
2011-10-25, 11:59
OK lets assume 2 things

a the complexity issue can be resolved
b Logitech want out.

Logitech could then offer all current and potential squeezebox users the choice of using the players to purely play music from local libraries, or signing up to a ( hopefully) classy,well run,regularly updated, and most importantly, bug free modern equivalent to mysqueezebox.com

For new customers, the site could be free for the first year. For existing users, 12 months notice could be given before the introduction of the charge.

If the site is professional and slick from the beginning, and the initial cost of setting it up funded by Logitech, then the whole thing could be presented in a very poitive light.

The scenario you describe is a nice dream, I would be extremely surprised if it becomes anything more than that, but the assumption was that Logitech really would like to abandon it and I'm pretty sure this is not the case at the moment.

My feeling is that if someone wants to take over mysqueezebox.com it needs to be done without the help from Logitech, based on my experience so far I'm very sure Logitech isn't going to help, definitely not as long as they earn money on Squeezebox products. When they don't earn any money on the Squeezebox product, someone else have already taken over the market and there is no point for anyone to take over mysqueezebox.com.



As to the cost of actually running it, and what the annual/monthly charge would have to be, I have no idea

How much would you personally be willing to pay per year ?



if the open source ethos of the original slimdevice could be maintained, then it could be affordable, and actually be a selling point.

I completely agree, but it's important to notice that most of Squeezebox Server has been written by people on Slim Devices or Logitech's payroll, so open source doesn't mean that it doesn't cost anything, it just means that it's easier to get small contributions from external resources.

pski
2011-10-25, 12:30
I balk at the possibility that the only competition is Apple TV.

p

Mnyb
2011-10-25, 15:18
Well, it looks there's no (real) compitition to Squeezebox! :-)

I agree :-)

I'm hovewer more unsure on what to think about the possibility of some else ( or logitech ) running mysb.com for a fee .

*I think erland is correct, you can't sell that.

*I also think that is exactly what needs to happen ? But who should pick up the tab.

A cath22 truly . But the problem is solved elsewhere , see iTunes or Android market.

The hardware and online conectivity must be independently financed It migth be in the future that we have all the hardware we need from logitech ( we have all kinds of squeezeboxes we ever wanted ).
Userbase is basically stable replacing broken players.

And we only want to add new online services and content providers.

Thats why we see so called " apps " on mysqueezebox.com , they want to be an app and service market
other providers sells apps and services to users mysqueezebox.com gets a %

But there not that many apps on mysqueezebox.com :-/ maybe a small fee from users will be needed anyway.

The current finacing of the online service works like a chain letter scam, you have to sell more players to finance the cost of running the service for the already sold players and as you have sold more players, the cost of running the service increases ?

How many years of mysqueezebox.com was included in the price when I bougth my squeezebox player ?

Can adds on the forum be a way to cover some cost ?

gruntwolla
2011-10-25, 16:13
The scenario you describe is a nice dream, I would be extremely surprised if it becomes anything more than that, but the assumption was that Logitech really would like to abandon it and I'm pretty sure this is not the case at the moment.

My feeling is that if someone wants to take over mysqueezebox.com it needs to be done without the help from Logitech, based on my experience so far I'm very sure Logitech isn't going to help, definitely not as long as they earn money on Squeezebox products. When they don't earn any money on the Squeezebox product, someone else have already taken over the market and there is no point for anyone to take over mysqueezebox.com.


How much would you personally be willing to pay per year ?


I completely agree, but it's important to notice that most of Squeezebox Server has been written by people on Slim Devices or Logitech's payroll, so open source doesn't mean that it doesn't cost anything, it just means that it's easier to get small contributions from external resources.

Point 1 - surely the most successful role model (Apple) makes a fortune selling hardware because their software is pretty damn good.

Point 2 - I currently pay around £50 per annum for anti virus/firewall software, £60 per annum for Napster, and £120 per annum for Spotify. I don't know what I would pay for my squeezebox.com, but why couldn't a partnership be established with ( let's say spotify as an example) Yheir marketing certainly might help!!

Point 3 - SBS has already been written. We're talking maintenance/ upgrades here are we not? ( I did say in my OP that I was perhaps being naive)

castalla
2011-10-25, 16:25
In my opinion, if Logitech want to charge for plugins/apps then so be it where a commercial option is normally available (eg. Spotify) but charging simply for other 'free' services, such as the BBC, etc. would probably kill off user allegiance.

Why pay for something which is free elsewhere? Given the actual production cost of the hardware and the end-user price, then a free aggregator service is the least users can expect.

erland
2011-10-25, 23:06
Point 2 - I currently pay around £50 per annum for anti virus/firewall software, £60 per annum for Napster, and £120 per annum for Spotify. I don't know what I would pay for my squeezebox.com, but why couldn't a partnership be established with ( let's say spotify as an example) Yheir marketing certainly might help!!

Considering the fact that Spotify has recently partnered up with Facebook, I'm a bit skeptical how attractive the rather small Squeezebox market is going to look to them.

But I agree that this is the way to go if you want to get an income from a central service like mysqueezebox.com, actually I would be surprised if Logitech isn't financing mysqueezebox.com at least partly this way already now.

HectorHughMunro
2011-10-26, 00:20
Now that larger SSD are becoming available, isn't the real competition for Squeezebox going to be the laptop or some kind of tablet plugged in to an asynch USB DAC?

We're about a year or two away but surely, this is the future.

In the interim, Squeezebox is fine and mine will cope until 500 Gb SSD are cheap enough for me to justify buying a laptop equipped with one amd moving to that.

I'm not going to worry about Logitech withdrawing support until they actually announce it. This is a fast moving sector and these platforms aren't lifetime commitments in the same way that the tape cassette wasn't.

The good thing about the current Squeezebox line is, although it's ageing, most of the bugs have been dealt with, the most important plugins have been developed and it's stable.

JJZolx
2011-10-26, 00:23
Now that larger SSD are becoming available, isn't the real competition for Squeezebox going to be the laptop or some kind of tablet plugged in to an asynch USB DAC?

What does SSD have to do with it?

HectorHughMunro
2011-10-26, 00:30
What does SSD have to do with it?

Because you can have something in the listening room that doesn't make a noise. I find spinning drives barely tolerable.

JJZolx
2011-10-26, 00:38
Because you can have something in the listening room that doesn't make a noise. I find spinning drives barely tolerable.

I can't hear an enclosed 2.5" drive from more than a foot or two away. But if it bugs you, you can use a small SSD for the boot drive and store the music library on the network instead of the computer in the listening room.

In any case, the platform has a number of disadvantages compared with Squeezeboxes, such as the inability to have multiple synched players. Remote control is often also be an issue, especially if the computer isn't attached to your network.

vrette
2011-10-26, 07:06
How about Olive 03HD?

Had a SB3, Then an Olive 4, followed by an Olive 4D. Eventually sold the Olive and came back to SB. While the Olive is a great one box solution, it is also a closed system. Heck, they even put special security screws on the case in a effort to prevent people from getting inside.

erland
2011-10-26, 07:52
Now that larger SSD are becoming available, isn't the real competition for Squeezebox going to be the laptop or some kind of tablet plugged in to an asynch USB DAC?

We're about a year or two away but surely, this is the future.

In the interim, Squeezebox is fine and mine will cope until 500 Gb SSD are cheap enough for me to justify buying a laptop equipped with one amd moving to that.

From my perspective, the advantage with Squeezebox is that I have access to the music independent if I'm in the kitchen, the living room or the bedroom and I don't need a computer in each room to accomplish this. Also, in each room I can select the type of player that suits me, a Touch in the living room, a Radio in the bedroom and a Boom in the kitchen and they all have access to the same music library.

Currently I'm not sure if there are anyone except for Logitech and Sonos that offers this kind of flexibility.

I don't think SSD is the factor that's going to change things, there are silent computers already today, instead any system that's going to sell to the masses needs to be easy to setup and then just work. As soon as you mention the word "computer" you are in trouble because it scares people that just want to play music.

A computer with USB DAC might be the solution for audiophile's but it's not going to be the optimal solution for everyone else that just wants access to the music in all rooms in the house.

I think the alternative to Squeezebox/Sonos is going to be the Apple solution with a amplifier/speaker with AirPlay support and music streamed from a portable device. The question is just if people want their music player to be stationary or portable, with Squeezebox through third party iOS/Android apps we get the best of both worlds.

pski
2011-10-26, 08:04
I am still disappointed that Logitech won't drop some cash on advertising.

Invariably, when I describe what the boxen do, people are very interested, especially the older more affluent people who want to get their music from a real stereo (or at least a HTIB) rather than an iPod/Phone. Several of my casual acquaintances have later got them and are pleased. We see a lot of problems here, but it's really not rocket science.

Some of the most interested people are the sales force that <aren't> selling the Radio's they have in stock. Due to it's unfortunate name, they think it ONLY does internet radio.

p

HectorHughMunro
2011-10-27, 01:01
Forgive me if I'm being naive here, but if paranoia becomes reality, couldn't a third party take over the running of mysqueezebox.com. If the new third party were seen to be committed to r&d, then would people not be willing to pay a modest annual subscription?,

Trev

If they could make it better, I'd pay for it.

I agree, this is paranoia until it actually happens. I could live without Squeezebox Server being updated but I'd be far more concerned if support was withdrawn from Ipeng!

gruntwolla
2011-10-27, 02:16
If they could make it better, I'd pay for it.

I agree, this is paranoia until it actually happens. I could live without Squeezebox Server being updated but I'd be far more concerned if support was withdrawn from Ipeng!

I think all this stems ( for me anyway) in disappointment that whenever I go into a hifi shop ( something I'm doing quite frequently at the moment ) there is always a sonos system on display ready for a demo, whereas one can only buy Squeezeboxen online nowadays. That is fine for those of us who know what Squeezebox is all about, but it doesn't suggest much commitment to the brand from Logitech. In a shop, if a couple of Touches were available to demo through decent speakers,with knowledgable staff on hand,then I think we all know they would sell.

I am more than happy with what squeezebox/sbs/mysb.com does at the moment - just disappointed that it seems that in the future inferior systems will prevail.

Trev

gbcambridge
2011-10-27, 04:07
[QUOTE=verypsb;664931]Hi,

Does anybody know a good Squeezebox alternative? I'm not really confident that the Logitech Squeezebox lineup will last much longer. Important features (to me):

I have just started to look at the Duet, and I cannot find it on the Logitech US web page. It is still for sale in the UK with part-number 930-000034, but in Amazon US, the part number was 930-000033. It almost looks like old stock is going out to the US!

Can anyone clarify what is going on with Duet.. and why Transporter now appears to be back?

eganders
2011-10-27, 05:07
I think if Logitech were to decide to not produce Squeezeboxes anymore, they'd probably look to sell it, unless it's just too tied up with the Revue, etc.

aubuti
2011-10-27, 05:40
Can anyone clarify what is going on with Duet.. and why Transporter now appears to be back?
Logitech's seat-of-the-pants inventory "management" does make it hard to tell where things are going....

The Duet is discontinued, and so is the Transporter. So retailers are selling whatever stock is left. The Transporter got a brief reprieve when they decided they could sell a "Transporter SE" model, which is the same as the original TP, but without the TransNav knob on the front. Apparently they were short of TransNav knobs, but that's only the first of the components to disappear. For example, the VFD screens are no longer being made by the manufacturer. So the TP will also disappear sooner rather than later.

socistep
2011-10-27, 06:47
I think all this stems ( for me anyway) in disappointment that whenever I go into a hifi shop ( something I'm doing quite frequently at the moment ) there is always a sonos system on display ready for a demo, whereas one can only buy Squeezeboxen online nowadays. That is fine for those of us who know what Squeezebox is all about, but it doesn't suggest much commitment to the brand from Logitech. In a shop, if a couple of Touches were available to demo through decent speakers,with knowledgable staff on hand,then I think we all know they would sell.

I am more than happy with what squeezebox/sbs/mysb.com does at the moment - just disappointed that it seems that in the future inferior systems will prevail.

Trev


Hi Trev

I went to the Manchester HiFi show last sunday, which I enjoyed, Logitech had no presence at all there - from a streaming perspective Sonos had a stand as did Simple Audio (although I managed to miss it!) - There was also the big hulk boxes of Naim, Cyrus etc which looked big, bulky and a bit dated compared to Sonos/SB. One dealer had an OliveHD unit, nice UI but not touch screen and again a very big unit. Quite a few dealers were demo-ing iPad's into DACs.

I did overhear some people talking about SB products so I imagine some existing/potential users attended however what is disappointing is that the marketing is non existent for SB products.

I too have found nothing on display in HiFi shops also

Thanks
Ian

PS - In a HiFi shop is where a potential 'Touch 2' - beefed up to run tinySB and support external HDDs better would, I believe, demo and sell very well - a pipe dream though...

garym
2011-10-27, 08:58
when I opened the front page of the NY Times website this morning, there is a very prominent SONOS ad. When you click on it, you go to a site that does a very good job of simply explaining how an integrated sonos system works (with one player or many). <sigh> if only logitech could get their marketing together because the SB products are actually better in many ways than Sonos. Of course, as has been pointed out, Sonos has one product essentially. SB products are a footnote within logitech.

gruntwolla
2011-10-27, 09:06
Hi Trev

I went to the Manchester HiFi show last sunday, which I enjoyed, Logitech had no presence at all there - from a streaming perspective Sonos had a stand as did Simple Audio (although I managed to miss it!) - There was also the big hulk boxes of Naim, Cyrus etc which looked big, bulky and a bit dated compared to Sonos/SB. One dealer had an OliveHD unit, nice UI but not touch screen and again a very big unit. Quite a few dealers were demo-ing iPad's into DACs.

I did overhear some people talking about SB products so I imagine some existing/potential users attended however what is disappointing is that the marketing is non existent for SB products.

I too have found nothing on display in HiFi shops also

Thanks
Ian

PS - In a HiFi shop is where a potential 'Touch 2' - beefed up to run tinySB and support external HDDs better would, I believe, demo and sell very well - a pipe dream though...

Hi Ian,
Funnily enough, with a view to upgrading my hifi, i've been looking ( and listening ) to a few Cyrus products lately. I may well take the plunge with them, as not only does their stuff sound like aural nectar, I will at least be able to stream my flac files. No sync, or 3rd party apps though.
I guess the duet controller will always make a nice desktop clock...

Trev

erland
2011-10-27, 09:19
I too have found nothing on display in HiFi shops also

Thanks
Ian

PS - In a HiFi shop is where a potential 'Touch 2' - beefed up to run tinySB and support external HDDs better would, I believe, demo and sell very well - a pipe dream though...

The question is just if the typical HiFi shop wants to sell something with a Logitech logo on it, independent how good it is.

If I remember correctly, when the Transporter was first released, Slim Devices selected to not put their "Slim Devices" brand on the front instead they tried to start a new brand "transporter", the main reason was probably that Slim Devices (and even more so Logitech) gives most audiophile's a low end feeling.

My local HiFi shop were selling Sonos, Teac and Logitech, their message was that Logitech's devices (including Transporter) was bad in comparison to Teac and Sonos, primarily from an audio quality perspective. We all know this isn't the case, at least it's not a huge difference, but it just shows that it might not be that easy for Logitech to get their hardware into HiFi shops.

However, if we are talking about supermarkets or mass market electronics stores, it's very different. My local electronics super market actually have Squeezeboxes on the shelf so you can touch and feel them, unfortunately the environment isn't really suitable for listening so there is no way to hear what sounds good and bad, but at least they look nice on the shelf.

erland
2011-10-27, 09:24
when I opened the front page of the NY Times website this morning, there is a very prominent SONOS ad. When you click on it, you go to a site that does a very good job of simply explaining how an integrated sonos system works (with one player or many). <sigh> if only logitech could get their marketing together because the SB products are actually better in many ways than Sonos. Of course, as has been pointed out, Sonos has one product essentially. SB products are a footnote within logitech.

My feeling is that Logitech is mostly used to be able to sell most of their other products without any advertising. This is easy for mices, web cams and similar stuff but it's a lot harder for products that need advertising, like Squeezebox, Harmony remotes and Revue.

It's so frustrating because some advertising would have the potential to make them sell a lot more of their advanced products.

paul.raulerson
2011-10-27, 10:58
My feeling is that Logitech is mostly used to be able to sell most of their other products without any advertising. This is easy for mices, web cams and similar stuff but it's a lot harder for products that need advertising, like Squeezebox, Harmony remotes and Revue.

It's so frustrating because some advertising would have the potential to make them sell a lot more of their advanced products.

LOL! I think Logitech accidentally create a high-end audio product with the Squeezebox Touch, when they were trying to compete with Bose. After not having gangbusters success with the Transporter.

Now they have little idea how to move forward with such a success. I mean, who knew that we snobby audiophiles would take to the Touch like white on rice? Was it planning that Logitech hit the right technical combination at the right price, or just pure dumb luck?

In any case, none of this says to me that they are automatically going to shut down the Squeezebox stuff.

Is there something I don't know about that is generating this concern?

-Paul

garym
2011-10-27, 11:04
In any case, none of this says to me that they are automatically going to shut down the Squeezebox stuff.

Is there something I don't know about that is generating this concern?

-Paul

not at all. about once a year or so, our general paranoia pops up and threads like this start up, and then they feed on themselves, and here we are.....

p.s. we think about SqueezeBoxes a lot, but logitech executives not so much as even if continued and successful, SB products are a very, very small part of their business.

nicolas75
2011-10-27, 11:28
...
My local HiFi shop were selling Sonos, Teac and Logitech, their message was that Logitech's devices (including Transporter) was bad in comparison to Teac and Sonos, primarily from an audio quality perspective. We all know this isn't the case, at least it's not a huge difference, but it just shows that it might not be that easy for Logitech to get their hardware into HiFi shops.
...


I know at least one HIFI shop who tried both Squeezeboxes and Sonos.
They decided to sell Sonos and discarded Squeezeboxes.

From what I understood, it was not because of the brand Logitech, or because of the sound quality.

When a HIFI shop sells a product, they have to make it work fine and easily at customer's house.
We all know this is very difficult with SBS if the customer is not technically aware.
The dealer cannot make a living if he has to support his customers, like Squeezeboxes fans support their non technical friends.
The job of a HIFI dealer is certainly not to be a computer technical guy.

The most problematic point is that the mere basic feature most customers will want is the following :

Someone brings a new music file, let's say on a USB stick, or an external USB HDD.
It MUST be possible to play it within a few seconds on the system, just plugging the USB device and clicking on the file.

It is not the only desirable feature, but this one is mandatory.
Every music software can do that.
But it is simply not possible with SBS nor TinySBS.
(you have to copy the file to a specific location, or wait for those crazy unreliable rescans, and so on ...)

In my opinion, it is no use to try to find another explanation.
A HIFI dealer would loose a tremendous amount of time if he had to provide service for SBS (and if he does not, people will buy online, not from him).
He also would have to explain that the very basic core feature I mentionned is simply not possible to achieve ...

I guess it is much better for them to tell it is not good, or simply not sell it at all.

After all, on poll threads concerning squeezeboxes quality, a common advice was
- excellent hardware, but very bad software
HIFI dealers are not meant to be computer software experts.

verypsb
2011-10-27, 11:31
But it is simply not possible with SBS nor TinySBS.

Browse Music Folder?

nicolas75
2011-10-27, 11:44
Browse Music Folder?

No this is not possible.

Mnyb
2011-10-27, 12:38
LOL! I think Logitech accidentally create a high-end audio product with the Squeezebox Touch, when they were trying to compete with Bose. After not having gangbusters success with the Transporter.

Now they have little idea how to move forward with such a success. I mean, who knew that we snobby audiophiles would take to the Touch like white on rice? Was it planning that Logitech hit the right technical combination at the right price, or just pure dumb luck?

In any case, none of this says to me that they are automatically going to shut down the Squeezebox stuff.

Is there something I don't know about that is generating this concern?

-Paul

i have to disagree a bit soundquality at a modest price has always been a factor this have always set squeezeboxes apart, in many other solutions sq is not even a concern , so it is no accidence that they sound good.

froth
2011-10-27, 15:24
Even if the whole SB line is tossed out by logitech, as long as you dont use mysqueeze.com and your SB hardware works, you can keep using it. More than likly for years after. I plan to do just that. By the time I need to replace my kit or expand it there may other good options out there. If I had to do it today, I think my best option is the Sono's solution as I would not be impacted by it's limitations.

garym
2011-10-27, 15:35
Even if the whole SB line is tossed out by logitech, as long as you dont use mysqueeze.com and your SB hardware works, you can keep using it. More than likly for years after.

true, for your own music, and internet radio streams where you can enter the URL. But one needs mysqueezebox.com to use things like Pandora, SiriusXM, etc. Not sure about Spotify (query: would triode's plugin work? I think so, since it is not part of myapps). For me, I could live with this, particulary with Spotify. My wife would miss the SiriusXM stuff, but most of my listening that is not my music, is internet radio that I can stream with a direct URL.

and obviously, you have to run your own local SbS. For example, those that use only mysb.com to stream Pandora would be out of luck. Then again, if that's all they do, then there are several options, including Sonos.

jcowling
2011-10-27, 15:38
Even if the whole SB line is tossed out by logitech, as long as you dont use mysqueeze.com and your SB hardware works, you can keep using it. More than likly for years after. I plan to do just that. By the time I need to replace my kit or expand it there may other good options out there.

1. I'm sticking with SBs until something better comes along. I just bought a Touch to get better audio quality. Heck, my turntable is 30 years old.

2. I am not so sure that SB is about to be discontinued. Why would Logitech release an iPhone app a couple of months ago if it had no interest in the product line?

3. I suspect that HiFi shops, which have fallen on hard times, are more interested in Sonos because the price is higher. There can't be much markup in a $300 Squeezebox for a retailer compared with a $1,000 Sonos system.

paul.raulerson
2011-10-27, 15:39
Even if the whole SB line is tossed out by logitech, as long as you dont use mysqueeze.com and your SB hardware works, you can keep using it. More than likly for years after. I plan to do just that. By the time I need to replace my kit or expand it there may other good options out there. If I had to do it today, I think my best option is the Sono's solution as I would not be impacted by it's limitations.

I looked hard at Sonos, but the lack of any hi-res playback is just a showstopper for me. I don't have an enormous stock of hi-res music, but I do have a significant amount. If from nothing else than needle drops from my record collection.

Meridian is a little too expensive and a little too closed. The closest competition is Auraliti's, and they start around $600 or $700. Going up from there you can get any quality you want, it just requires an outlay of money.

The SBT seems to have - uniquely - got it all right, in one box, at an incredibly favorable price. I don't know of anything out there that does it quite as well.

Mac's + iTunes come close, but they are limited to 16/44.1 like Sonos, unless you use much more complex - and expensive - software and/or methods. Linux is close, but just try to put one together than has the reliable and easy to use remote control, 24/96+, streaming, synchronization, internet radio, and Spotify sounding good at 320kbs. Oh yeah, that will autoswitch sample rates and play music gaplessly without going though really intricate and mysterious incantations.

No kidding, SBT has got it right.

They did get a few things wrong, in my opinion, but I am dead sure that is due to cost. Remember please, I have bee listening only through fairly high quality DACs connected via Coax. Compared to that, the internal DAC fed through the onboard analog is pretty poor, hissing on sibilants like an overheated teakettle. As far as I am concerned, they could leave off the entire DAC and analog section. :)

Secondly, the USB implementation not supporting - or easily supporting - USB DACs is the pits. Pretty much all the really good DACs today are USB based, and moreover, are asynchronous. I got the SBT touch to feed my Wavelength Proton this morning just perfectly, and it made utterly gorgeous sound - for 45 seconds. After that point, it started hissing and popping like a pissed off rattlesnake.

The SBT touch does not embarrass itself attached to a $5000 DAC, in fact, it sounds - I can't think of a word to express how good it sounds. Amazing .Jaw on the floor kiss my grits amazing.

I'm not buying a non-USB Dac in that price range, but I suppose I am going to drop a grand or so on a decent DAC with S/PDIF inputs.

-Paul

P.S. I don't mean to sound like a fanboy, but I am simply amazed. And pleased. And a little pissed off about the USB thing.

garym
2011-10-27, 15:41
In my paranoid moments, I worry about the loss of this very useful community of experienced users if you logged on to this forum one day to find it gone (which is likely how it would happen....pull the plug with no notice). I've often thought that we should create a "google group" or something that folks could subscribe to now just so we have it. And we wouldn't really use the group, but if this forum went away, we'd have a common meeting place to deal with the future issues of continuing to use (and improve) our squeezeboxes....Just a (paranoid) thought.

p.s. frankly I'm surprised they haven't pulled the plug here already given that there are already official logitech forums about all the SB players and software. So even if SB survives, this forum may not...

castalla
2011-10-27, 15:48
A similar 'sudden event' happened at Reciva - they closed the official users' forum without any notice. Fortunately, somebody had already set up a 'Reciva Refuge' forum elsewhere ... and many users simply just transferred to the new independent forum.

Even Reciva have now joined as a 'helpful' user ... which is more than they ever did at the official forum!

erland
2011-10-27, 16:07
In my paranoid moments, I worry about the loss of this very useful community of experienced users if you logged on to this forum one day to find it gone (which is likely how it would happen....pull the plug with no notice). I've often thought that we should create a "google group" or something that folks could subscribe to now just so we have it. And we wouldn't really use the group, but if this forum went away, we'd have a common meeting place to deal with the future issues of continuing to use (and improve) our squeezeboxes....Just a (paranoid) thought.

Same thoughts has crossed my mind but I don't think it's a good idea to start something in advance, it will just give Logitech reasons to close this forum down and it will indicate to everyone reading this forum that we believe Logitech is about to pull the plug which might decrease the interest for the products among new customers and due to this result in decreased sales and increasing the risk of someone deciding to stop selling Squeezeboxes.

If we want to start something new, it's easy to just post a link on the official Logitech support forums when the catastrophe has happened.

Even though I'm also paranoid sometimes it's important to realize that there is no indication what so ever that Logitech is about to shutdown this forum or the Squeezebox products. The only thing we have seen is that Logitech is at this moment prioritizing Revue higher than Squeezebox, but that kind of prioritization happens in all companies and it doesn't have to mean that the product is about to die. In my mind the Squeezebox still have a brighter future than Revue, it's just that Logitech haven't realized it yet. I'm 100% sure it's a lot easier for someone to sell a Squeezebox than selling a Revue, the only reason Revue is interesting is because its price is pretty low.



p.s. frankly I'm surprised they haven't pulled the plug here already given that there are already official logitech forums about all the SB players and software. So even if SB survives, this forum may not...

As long as they support the products I don't think there is much risk, their support organization are very aware of the competence available on this community forum, they often even refer their customers here when the official support can't help them.

The risk was a lot higher a few years back when their support organization wasn't aware of the competence needed and the competence available in the community.

Mnyb
2011-10-27, 22:27
They also need the comunity we are the white mice in mr hergers and mr grundmans labyrinth ;)

Have you seen the " bug reports " by the some outsourced testers they finaly are using for 7.7 ?
Admittetly >90% bug reports from the forum is noise.
But some here find a file real bugs very well documented.

Example.

A hired tester can count menu items in some mog meny and file a bug.
Some users from the forum files that 7.7 is not actually possible to install on some readynas ( an oficially suported platform )

i think this whole tread is a bit paranoid .

It's true that logitech does not get or market thier own product the rigth way.
But that can be said off many products that still linger in thier niche with some moderate following.

But I'm not for dumbing down the product it is simple as it is, it would be crap if that happened :-/ the treshold for joining is no higher than understand how to rip tag and organise files and some rudimentary network skills.
Sometimes learning a few things can make the whole experience so much better for you, whats wrong with that ? Sometimes I'm amazed do you not explore menus and functions on a new product ?
Some people have phones that is by far more complicated than the standard squeezebox and sbs server system
These phones are massmarket products ? Why the idea that a music server must be at a kindergarten level ?

Why do people react so badly to thier own incompetence ? I realised when I was opting for the squeezebox solution in 2006 that there are things i need to to learn I did not start to whine about that you "need to be a techie " you are learning new things your whole life ?

cliveb
2011-10-28, 01:07
If I remember correctly, when the Transporter was first released, Slim Devices selected to not put their "Slim Devices" brand on the front instead they tried to start a new brand "transporter", the main reason was probably that Slim Devices (and even more so Logitech) gives most audiophile's a low end feeling.
Your memory is a little flawed. When the TP first came out, it did have a Slim Devices logo on the front. (Mine has one).

It was only after Logitech bought out the company that the logo changed to "transporter" (almost certainly for the very reason you surmise - no audiophile would want a Logitech logo in their rack).

Personally I think (and always thought) that Logitech was entirely the wrong company to buy out Slim Devices. They probably realised that streaming was a future growth area and snapped up a company that was available for (what is to them) petty cash. Sure, they probably did a bit of research and understood how the devices worked, but I get the feeling that nobody in Logitech understood the Slim Devices vision.

JJZolx
2011-10-28, 01:18
Sure, they probably did a bit of research and understood how the devices worked, but I get the feeling that nobody in Logitech understood the Slim Devices vision.

I think that sums it up quite well. Turns out that the 'slim' client-server approach used by Slim Devices was totally wrong for the consumer market. That's how we ended up with so much reliance on mysqueezebox.com, and with products marketed not for their ability to play your own music, but for their ability to play low audio quality service like Pandora and Rhapsody.

socistep
2011-10-28, 01:51
I think that sums it up quite well. Turns out that the 'slim' client-server approach used by Slim Devices was totally wrong for the consumer market. That's how we ended up with so much reliance on mysqueezebox.com, and with products marketed not for their ability to play your own music, but for their ability to play low audio quality service like Pandora and Rhapsody.

I've mentioned a few times that I believe a 'Touch 2' with beefed up spec and ability to support plug and play USB stick/external HDD would be a lot easier to sell - not just as its easier to understand, it removes the server on a pc element and also quite a handy way of demo-ing in places like PC world.

Mnyb
2011-10-28, 01:58
I think that sums it up quite well. Turns out that the 'slim' client-server approach used by Slim Devices was totally wrong for the consumer market. That's how we ended up with so much reliance on mysqueezebox.com, and with products marketed not for their ability to play your own music, but for their ability to play low audio quality service like Pandora and Rhapsody.

+1

It is a product for playing your own high quality files from your own server with the added ability to do other things ( I do like some of those other things ).

That is why I bought it in the first place .

And then they try to make the "extras" the main thing in marketing :confused:

warpian
2011-10-28, 02:37
I am with Paul Raulerson, if only for his imaginative way of putting things!

I really want to hook up a asynchronous USB dac to a SB, which at this moment is not really feasible. Soundcheck (with his Touch Toolbox) made the USB port available for output, but the USB driver on the Touch is too old (not class 2 audio capable). So I would really like to see Logitech put an updated Touch on the market with an newer USB driver. That's why this thread interests me.

However, we can make this work using Squeezeslave on e.g. a fanless FitPC (which is smaller than a duet and with a SSD is completely silent). The only hurdle is to make hi res work in Squeezeslave. Which unfortunately is not an endeaver for the faint of heart as Ralphy explained to me.

You may say: I am loosing the bigger picture here... but once we have an (audiophile) alternative for the SB hardware, we are pretty much on our own. Let people who just want streaming services use their iPads and iPhones etc. They can stream whatever an App Store or Android Market app has to offer directly to a DAC already today (have a look at Arcam's rDAC with support for "Kleer"). Eventually the SB concept will probably loose out to this type of solution for the mass market.

But let the mass market be the mass market. I dont see any reason why the SB server x client solution wouldnt be able to survive as a niche open source initiative for a bunch of well-bred enthusiasts :-)

But as Erland says, there are no signs from Logitech that they are about to abandon the SB yet. So why worry anyway?

thus my two cents
Tom

toby10
2011-10-28, 02:50
Hi-Fi shops not carrying SB:
I'd bet margin is a big factor as well. Such smaller retailers low volume + high margin. So a Touch with an MSRP of $300 there is not much margin, so I'd guess a Sonos (or other) higher dollar system better fits their business model.

MySqueezeBox.com:
Yes, unneeded for your local music, and that is a factor. But keep in mind how important streaming services are to the over all hardware sales. Whether you use it or not a reliable and ever improving MySB is truly key to the success of the entire SB line, now and going forward.

socistep
2011-10-28, 02:55
I am with Paul Raulerson, if only for his imaginative way of putting things!

I really want to hook up a asynchronous USB dac to a SB, which at this moment is not really feasible. Soundcheck (with his Touch Toolbox) made the USB port available for output, but the USB driver on the Touch is too old (not class 2 audio capable). So I would really like to see Logitech put an updated Touch on the market with an newer USB driver. That's why this thread interests me.

However, we can make this work using Squeezeslave on e.g. a fanless FitPC (which is smaller than a duet and with a SSD is completely silent). The only hurdle is to make hi res work in Squeezeslave. Which unfortunately is not an endeaver for the faint of heart as Ralphy explained to me.

You may say: I am loosing the bigger picture here... but once we have an (audiophile) alternative for the SB hardware, we are pretty much on our own. Let people who just want streaming services use their iPads and iPhones etc. They can stream whatever an App Store or Android Market app has to offer directly to a DAC already today (have a look at Arcam's rDAC with support for "Kleer"). Eventually the SB concept will probably loose out to this type of solution for the mass market.

But let the mass market be the mass market. I dont see any reason why the SB server x client solution wouldnt be able to survive as a niche open source initiative for a bunch of well-bred enthusiasts :-)

But as Erland says, there are no signs from Logitech that they are about to abandon the SB yet. So why worry anyway?

thus my two cents
Tom


I think because stock is getting low and its been 2 years since any new products have been launched that people are speculating on the future, most taking a pessimistic view that Logitech are looking to pull the plug

alfista
2011-10-28, 07:48
Hi-Fi shops not carrying SB:
I'd bet margin is a big factor as well.
Yep, definitely more likely to be the factor than sound quality even though there is some merit to the concept of SbS being a bit difficult to explain.


MySqueezeBox.com:
Yes, unneeded for your local music, and that is a factor. But keep in mind how important streaming services are to the over all hardware sales. Whether you use it or not a reliable and ever improving MySB is truly key to the success of the entire SB line, now and going forward.
Agreed. Some of the more vocal members around here are so content with ever improving their tagging scheme to better "organize their music" that they forget (or just aren't aware) that many others, even when running their own SbS, rely on MySB in one way or other to access the material they want.

nicolas75
2011-10-28, 08:19
Originally Posted by toby10
Hi-Fi shops not carrying SB:
I'd bet margin is a big factor as well.

Yep, definitely more likely to be the factor than sound quality even though there is some merit to the concept of SbS being a bit difficult to explain.


That's not true for the HIFI dealers I spoke with.
No problem with sound quality or margin.
They do sell devices cheaper than a Squeezebox Touch, or sounding not as good (dacs, cd players, etc ...)
the real problem was the poor quality (reliability, not user friendly) of the software.

(see what I said here http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=665731&postcount=57 )

garym
2011-10-28, 11:49
If we want to start something new, it's easy to just post a link on the official Logitech support forums when the catastrophe has happened.


good point

MelonMonkey
2011-11-01, 12:32
Does anybody know a good Squeezebox alternative?

An iOS device - iPhone, new iPod Touch (not 1st or 2nd generation) or iPad running iPeng or SqueezePad.

Squeezebox Server or Logitech Media Server running on the system of your choice.

Analog audio from the headphone port of the iOS device.
Analog line-out from the dock connector of the iOS device.
Digital audio using an HDMI adapter on the dock port of the iOS device.

IMO, that's far and away the best alternative to using Squeezebox hardware for playback, and certainly for control/UI.

Here are some additional benefits compared to other products:

You can listen on the HiFi or when outside around your dwelling via headphones and your WiFi connected iOS device.
Mix and match different devices for playback and control.
Easily install the system in a vehicle, including a tiny server that fits in the palm of your hand and holds all your music.

g8vju
2011-11-01, 16:26
Could this product be a possible alternative?

www.cocktailaudio.com

Spec looks good, with similar capabilities, but perhaps with better local disk support than the touch?
Has anybody any experience with this product?

Kevin

castalla
2011-11-01, 16:37
Could this product be a possible alternative?

www.cocktailaudio.com

Spec looks good, with similar capabilities, but perhaps with better local disk support than the touch?
Has anybody any experience with this product?

Kevin

Uses some weird implmentation of Reciva for radio - not very flexible.

Reports of poor wifi performance.

Tagging is a chore.

Mnyb
2011-11-01, 16:39
Could this product be a possible alternative?

www.cocktailaudio.com

Spec looks good, with similar capabilities, but perhaps with better local disk support than the touch?
Has anybody any experience with this product?

Kevin

Hmm, similar capalities :-/ not really, no competition for squeeze.

Lets's hope logitech continues the support for our devices :) there really is nothing like them.

toby10
2011-11-02, 03:20
.........
www.cocktailaudio.com
.......

And what do they want for this gem? It looks like a mini Olive system.


.........
but perhaps with better local disk support than the touch?
.......

Now that could be true. Of course a 286 computer running Win95 probably has better local disk support than Touch. :);):)

gruntwolla
2011-11-02, 14:24
And what do they want for this gem? It looks like a mini Olive system.:)

£279 with no hd up to £429 with a 2000GB sata hd.

more info here if you want

http://www.kjglobal.co.uk/acatalog/Cocktail_Audio_X10.html

Trev

toby10
2011-11-03, 03:06
£279 with no hd up to £429 with a 2000GB sata hd.

more info here if you want

http://www.kjglobal.co.uk/acatalog/Cocktail_Audio_X10.html

Trev

Thanks :)
So they are talking $446 for player only and $686 for player + 2tb HD, not outrageous. Can it Sync to other players? Nothing in the FAQ about additional players.

Mnyb
2011-11-03, 04:20
Thanks :)
So they are talking $446 for player only and $686 for player + 2tb HD, not outrageous. Can it Sync to other players? Nothing in the FAQ about additional players.

Yea what about hirez, is this thing with HD and fan going to sit in the hifi rack he he no thanks .

The distributed, server and multiple high quality players squeezeboxes, is maybe hard to market but a superior way to do it .
Squeeze still on top.

MelonMonkey
2011-11-03, 07:11
Does anyone trust this cocktail product to be around in a year? Two? It looks like it's just a Korean systems builder of some sort. I wouldn't consider it an alternative to Squeezebox products.

The most valuable part of the SB family is the server software, and that still appears to be getting some attention from Logitech.

BlueWombat
2011-11-26, 23:26
I'm coming late into this discussion, but I think some people have focused on the correct issues: Slim Devices is now owned by Logitech. By definition it is a company that will not want to limit it products to a small niche market. As such, Squeezeboxes need to be more user friendly in terms of setup, installation, and ongoing maintenance. And it needs to be marketed as such. I have had squeezeboxes for years, and to be honest, I started looking at this post because I am tired of always having to "fix" my setup to get it to work. I am beginning to ask myself what are the alternatives..Sometimes, my system will play flawlessly for several hours, then it will freeze. At others it will buffer, even though my SB receiver is but a few feet from my router. At vet other times, I won't get my system to respond to any commands or play anything until I've spent 30 minutes trying to fix things due to scanner crashes, server issues, god knows what...and I'm a tech oriented person. If this kind of stuff gets frustrating for someone like me, how is it supposed to work for the average user? This isn't the same as playing a CD or my iPod, yet is should be.

I don't know if the Sonos is any better, but you must say they make it look appealing in their advertising. They are even starting to sell Sonos at Target stores here in the U.S. Is that too "down market" for some? Perhaps, but for the squeezebox to continue to grow and improve, I think the product has to have some sort of market presence, but I don't think it has Logitech's focus (or the correct focus).

erland
2011-11-27, 00:31
For me the issue is that I'm not interested in a single player, I'm interested in a system where I know I will be able to add new devices in the future without replacing all existing players which I've purchased recently.

To make sure this is the case, the manufacturer have to make sure that:
- New devices can use the same music library/server software as old devices
- I'm able to remote control all devices using a single remote
- Provide devices both for the main listening room and for other rooms without a HiFi amplifier, like kitchen and bedroom.

At the moment it feels like this more or less limits the options to:
- Logitech
- Sonos
- Possibly Apple (AirPort Express/AppleTV/iOS docks)

Nobody else have something that makes me believe I can be sure to be able to purchase additional players one or two years in the future that still is compatible with the old players.

I'm not sure Apple should be in the list because they aren't really focused at a multi room solution with remote control unless you control it from a computer, they are more focused at locally controlled mobile devices.

Sonos has the advantage that they give the impression that they are still going to be around two years in the future and still produce multi room audio solutions. Unfortunately they have a lot of disadvantages compared to Logitech offerings, for example more or less no support for third party add-ons, no display directly on the device and a price that makes it expensive to extend to rooms which doesn't have HiFi requirements.

Logitech works thanks to all their existing products but my fear is that they are in the future going to be more focused at cheaper Radio like devices and due to this it will be easy to extend the system to rooms which don't have HiFi requirements but extending it to rooms with HiFi requirements might get harder in the future.

Except for the above options it's easy to find a single player replacement of a single room from other manufacturers, but it's hard to find anyone you believe will be around two years in the future and still produce something which is usable together with players which you can purchase from them today.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I see a lot of options for a single room solution but as soon as we talk about a multi-room system it gets a lot harder to find anyone that provides something.

Has anyone else found anything except Sonos or Logitech that realistically already today can be an alternative in a multi room system ?

Mnyb
2011-11-27, 00:44
I'm coming late into this discussion, but I think some people have focused on the correct issues: Slim Devices is now owned by Logitech. By definition it is a company that will not want to limit it products to a small niche market. As such, Squeezeboxes need to be more user friendly in terms of setup, installation, and ongoing maintenance. And it needs to be marketed as such. I have had squeezeboxes for years, and to be honest, I started looking at this post because I am tired of always having to "fix" my setup to get it to work. I am beginning to ask myself what are the alternatives..Sometimes, my system will play flawlessly for several hours, then it will freeze. At others it will buffer, even though my SB receiver is but a few feet from my router. At vet other times, I won't get my system to respond to any commands or play anything until I've spent 30 minutes trying to fix things due to scanner crashes, server issues, god knows what...and I'm a tech oriented person. If this kind of stuff gets frustrating for someone like me, how is it supposed to work for the average user? This isn't the same as playing a CD or my iPod, yet is should be.

I don't know if the Sonos is any better, but you must say they make it look appealing in their advertising. They are even starting to sell Sonos at Target stores here in the U.S. Is that too "down market" for some? Perhaps, but for the squeezebox to continue to grow and improve, I think the product has to have some sort of market presence, but I don't think it has Logitech's focus (or the correct focus).

You are a very patient person if you have not abandoned the system if this is the normal mode off operation for you :-/ .
I would in similar circumstances , but then again whats the alternative with similar functionality

A working system is noting like this , you got some serious unresolved (or unexplained ) issue(s) in you setup ?

It is a failure of Logitech support organisation if they never been able resolve or explain these issues for you .

3 quick tips that will bore you to tears, sorry ,but if you are Tech person you have no problems with how to , maybe bored by the repetition....

1. A few feet from the router = ethernet wire , reset receiver redo setup done. Much faster than figuring why or if something wifi is not working and the reasons for that . (and if still buffers you now that something else is wrong)

2. wire the server, always .

3. Static ip for all squeeze stuff including the server, receiver has a slightly flaky dhcp implementation and so does some routers. (This tip is hard to explain for non tech people )

aubuti
2011-11-27, 08:40
Has anyone else found anything except Sonos or Logitech that realistically already today can be an alternative in a multi room system ?
Not at anything near the Logitech price point. But if you open the wallet wider, then Olive and Sooloos come into the picture, and probably a few others.

And I wouldn't be nearly so quick to dismiss Apple. You don't mention AirPlay, which is increasingly appearing in audio hardware.

AndreE
2011-11-27, 11:08
Just followed this thread, some interesting articles in the internet and tried to understand where whole story goes and come to interesting observation, which just would like to share with you and would be glad to hear what you think about it.

Some recent surprise for me was that Duet was completely removed from the line just few years after launch. There is only one Logitech device, which is still available on the market is Touch (I do not consider Radio as player in the same league).
This was a bid sad news for me having whole "set-up" up and running.

Another sad story was about SvrPowerControl plugin – I really regret the fact that GHarris was abused by some silly posts and has left the room.

Facing another issues related to the need to start my receiver upgrade (existing unfortunately is not really capable of caring all benefits coming from Blue-Ray era) I start looking around the market, just to understand.
And findings were a bit interesting and sad for my Logitech set-up in the same time.

Apple is continuously gaining speed and occupies more and more space in the entertainment area. Apple Tv – small device was not really successful yet, but… it will be. It is nothing else than Duet for audio and video in the same time. iTV (real TV set) was recently announced.

And where whole story closes the circle: more and more devices support "Airplay". It is nothing else than build-in Duet into many great Receivers and amplifiers.

This really indicated that Logitech will have more and more difficulties to keep own territory in this area. The first mover advantage did not work for long. Market is growing and having some complexity behind the solution moves it to be a niche solution.

Apple offers Server centrally – in iClouds. Why anybody keep own Squeezebox server up and running where no maintenance solution is available.
And look on "Airplay" – it does exactly what I was searching for: it connects all devices together in the house – like all my Duets do. Usability is super, support and market coverage – are great.

Other interesting findings were:
Reading Logitech annual report I was even more surprised to see some comments related to weak sales in Europe – apparently sales does not really sell Touch and Duet – result is in declining market share. Following Sonos marketing initiatives and expansion in almost each retails store – I guess Logitech will have even less market share. No pessimism, just observation. It is good that I finally could fee Logitech devices in stores, but it was not enough to have it on the shelf close to some other cheap devices – most people just do not understand what that can do with it and I guess would not be able to set-up it by themselves.
Sonos makes big noise on the market at the moment, but… it would be interesting to know sales figures. And again. It would be difficult to position Sonos with 3+ times higher price for the same what can be offered by Apple "Airplay" and Apple TV – they will just squeeze Sonos from the market. Functionality, integration to content and significantly lower price will make the deal closed. I guess Sonos might be still interesting for retailers because of high margin generated per device, but for how long this would work?

Coming back to Logitech:
Existing business model could be fine for Slimdevices, but is not really great for Logitech, unless I miss something. Sales was a main cash stream for everything. Commission from content provides came to the game later.
To get subscription fees? – I personally question any possibility in this area. To get the support from content providers – possibly this can be the money stream, but it has to be substantial to justify operation costs. Reading some explanations behind Duet discontinuity one of arguments was: device has to support encrypted audio stream - if I am not mistaking Apple standard was mentioned as one of preferred ones.
For Apple – this is not an issue: it is just small part of the package. Competition would be difficult, and for average users Apple has clear benefits –usability would be the main one.

And what then?
To run the solution we need to have mysqueezebox.com where information about stations is, where some other stuff are. What happens if Logitech decided to pull the plug there?
How long Logitech will keep it running?
I guess when the revenue will be further shrinking, there will be a moment where operational cost will be not justified anymore.
I know that nothing in this world is forever, still I would desire continuity ... but for how long would this be running?

I love my set-up, I love the music and all possibilities Logitech provides and wish to have them available for me at least for maybe another 10 years?


Any thoughts?

.

garym
2011-11-27, 11:21
minor question re apple airplay. Does it support player synch. That is, does it allow different players to be playing exactly the same thing (synched) OR to be playing different things (all being fed from same itunes). Not sure, but just curious.

p.s. your Squeezeboxes and existing software will last "forever" until they break. Even if logitech shuts it all down tomorrow. So you'll have own music and anything you can reach with a URL (internet radio). Of course you won't have anything that requires mysb.com interface (pandora, spotify, mog, siriusXM, etc.).

Mnyb
2011-11-27, 11:29
yes Airplay does it really treat the whole system as a whole, sync or not for multiple players from the same source and unaltered soundquality ? was not apples own airports ( or what they called them ) using urgh resampled audio to 16/48 k something.
What does airplay stream ?

I seen airplay in action just streaming youtube sound from an ipad to a reciever cool demo:) but just a toy.
In a sutuation where I have for example iTunes on a computer an iPad and some sort of player that is airplay capable how does this come together ?

streaming from the actual pad seems a bit backwards for stationary use but usefull for getting tunes from friends iPhones to ones stereo or other device ?

toby10
2011-11-27, 11:41
Time wise the Duet was cancelled after a decent run, as far as electronic devices go.
SB3 & Boom & Duet Receiver were all basically based on the same player, were getting old, replaced by newer players Touch & Radio with more features (like hi-res & Spotify).
There have often been only a single current player offered in the SB history, having multiple current players offered is relatively new.

Reasons I think SB will be around in the near future:
Logitech has said it was very pleased with it's streaming product sales, particularly in the EU market.
Radio is the single best selling SB model ever made.

Does Apple/Airplay have as many third party services as does SB or Sonos? I'm asking, I don't know. :)

AndreE
2011-11-27, 11:51
It is very interesting question about Airplay bitrate. Tried to find any information, but no any exposure to figures
And thanks for sharing optimism I really wish Logitech all the best with this product line.

After many issues with some version I finally have my music at my hands and whole family enjoys it.

About third parties? – I do not know how broad offering is. I just see that Apple has broad coverage with partners – number is getting bigger and bigger.

Visiting one of my friends I was very impressed by the music played in his house.
This was exactly a solution – it was coming from the internet and via one of Apple devices was channeled to the amplifier – sound was supper


could it be an answer:?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2630381?start=0&tstart=0


Answer: Airplay will stream the 24/96 content to receiving devices like the Marantz NA7004, but only from your computer, not from one of the portable Apple devices. Those portable devices, like the iPhone and iPad are internally limited to 16/44. You can use your iPhone or iPad to control the content streaming from the computer to the receiver.

Also, when you listen to music on an iPhone or iPod, the music is not at the 16/44 resolution, it is lower. Apple provides a DAC in each device that does not deliver the full 16/44 resolution. 16/44 is equivalent to CD quality and the Apple Lossless format. If you want that quality from your iPhone, iPod or iPad then you need an external digital dock that decrypts the USB output and converts it at 16/44. Some of the docks available can process up to 24/192, but the iPhone, etc. are still going to restrict you to 16/44 maximum.

You can also use a streaming system over wifi from you iTunes library directly to your iPhone or iPad. Try Zumocast for that, but again, limited to 16/44 and you would need the digital dock as well to get that resolution.

gian
2011-12-03, 01:59
Mice are for everybody, SBs are not, they are too complex for most individuals.

Actually, my first attempt to build a SBS was aimed to learn Linux playing around during the holidays in 2006. Thanks to SB, I have now a window$ free home and office!

Also, hi-fi is for some people, video is for everybody.
Just look at how many (real) hifi dealers are still in business in the last 20 years.

My aim with SB, was finding a bridge between my quality hifi system, and internet radio and music library.

I listen more to radio than to my own library, but don't even know what SB.com is all about, I am pretty happy listening to national broadcasts from all over the world.

That said, I don't think that Logitech is the best company to manage a niche business.

I hope the original Slim Devices founder will get it back..

-Gian

Mnyb
2011-12-03, 02:32
Mice are for everybody, SBs are not, they are too complex for most individuals.

Actually, my first attempt to build a SBS was aimed to learn Linux playing around during the holidays in 2006. Thanks to SB, I have now a window$ free home and office!

Also, hi-fi is for some people, video is for everybody.
Just look at how many (real) hifi dealers are still in business in the last 20 years.

My aim with SB, was finding a bridge between my quality hifi system, and internet radio and music library.

I listen more to radio than to my own library, but don't even know what SB.com is all about, I am pretty happy listening to national broadcasts from all over the world.

That said, I don't think that Logitech is the best company to manage a niche business.

I hope the original Slim Devices founder will get it back..

-Gian

A good point . very similar to my own experience .

However the online experience can be for everyone and that sells squeezeboxes and it not to hard.

Here we have

*sometimes unreliable mysqueezebox.com servers (have improved greatly ,but I migth eat my words xmas is soon here then everyone wants to listen online ).
If logitech is on top of these issues it would be great.

* Your wifi, if it sucks it sucks what can logitech ever do about that ? seriously ?

To run your local file collection it takes some actual music interest (not casual background listening ) and posibly also some rudimentary sense of soundquality to muster the energy to make it go :)

The ripping managing and proper tagging and artwork is the real work . A couple of hours now and then to whack the admittedly to buggy server in to shape pales compared to the time spent with your files .

I understand why folks go for online services only if lacking the kind of music hobby interest some of us got bitten with .

Most people I know would just run a wire from the PC and listen to spotify

Pascal Hibon
2011-12-03, 02:33
I hear many people (on this forum but also on other discussion forums) that the big disadvantage of Squeezebox is the requirement to have a (local) server. I believe that many people are missing the fact that every streaming system needs a server. But people only complain about that when looking at Squeezebox. Most Hifi players need a DLNA server and even Sonos needs a server. With Sonos this server functionality is done by one of the players. Since their server is running on a low powered platform (just like TineSC in the Touch), it has some limitations. I'm not familiar with AirPlay but I'm pretty sure that system will need an iTunes server somewhere.

I believe that the SBS / LMS server requirement is an advantage over the other systems. The Squeezebox protocol is more robust and it is really designed for streaming systems. It also adds a ton of positive things when it comes to user experience. I have looked at other streaming alternatives. I have even used a Sonos player a few months back. Up until today I haven't found a good alternative for Squeezebox. Logitech still has the advantage but too bad they don't realize it yet. For Squeezebox to become more popular it will need a company that puts high priority on this product line. Add more players and address the market to achieve more visibility. Unfortunately, a company that makes mice and keyboards is not the right company for the Squeezebox product.

toby10
2011-12-03, 03:09
Pascal, Mnyb, gian,
ALL excellent points.


..... I believe that many people are missing the fact that every streaming system needs a server. But people only complain about that when looking at Squeezebox.....

Very true. Even the devices with built in internet radio and/or services use a server. Like the networking AVR's which typically use Reciva or vTuner in the background. If no local server and vTuner is down then my AVR cannot stream anything from the internet.

The difference is that most people either don't know there is a server at work or they don't need to care about it because these servers are very reliable and very simplistic in features and usage. This is where LMS and MySB struggle because they are far more complex, far more customizable, offer many more services and features, updated often (to both add features and fix issues), etc... Which in turn seems to make them far less reliable for the average user.

That said, I've had very few issues with either LMS or MySB, but obviously not everyone can say that. :(

gian
2011-12-03, 09:39
I would like to add that, because it is fitted with a quality DAC, and you can even add an external one, while somewhat inexpensive, the SB leaves the door open to a high-end upgrade.

This cannot be an argument for those that are happy to listen to their plain iPods, which are the vast majority.

About running a server at home, it can have many scopes: I use it to backup my laptop, store pictures, music, security camera images, stream video to the TV or other networked PCs, FTP, web, and SB server.

AndreE
2011-12-04, 05:26
I would agree with most arguments listed above.

One observation raises some questions on my side. I’ve just recently visited Hi-Fi shop next to me to have a look on local offering and prices (thinking to upgrade my already aging home cinema) and what I’ve seen was a bit surprising. Majority of vendors is moving towards AirPlay or DLNA, or both together. Most common platforms offer iPad/iPhone plugs, it might be for extra money or not - it does no matter for this discussion.

For me it is an indicator about the market need or market development trend.

Some years ago I was looking on Philips audio devices and was puzzled what DLNA could actually mean - now it is everywhere. It was too complex to understand and to configure, documentation was huge at that time.

Most of you say that server is essential - agree, but we do have it on each Apple notebook or even Windows one when we install iTune.

When I recall my experience with iTune - it is easy to install (it was actually one click), no extra configuration. When I wanted to rip CD - again it was done with one click. When I wanted to change tags - it is part of iTune functionality - it was very easy and very intuitive. Meaning average not-computer addicted person can do it with no special education. Whole cycle is done using preconfigured software named iTune.

I guess whole story is about usability. I would not invent the wheel by saying that complexity limits the market. I see that it was exactly this for Squeeze devices. I do not want to hammer it, just share the observation and experience.

Visiting this shop I had a talk about possibilities available at many devices, and I was very surprised about the progress made by the industry over several, actually just few years. Most devices can a lot now: play net radio, play from HDD or USB stick, many support FLAC now, can synchronously play over the net. Majority supports up to 5 devices or even more at the same time. Most have one-two pages documentation how to configure the device quickly. In the same time have full set of possible features to tweak anything e.g. IP addressed, network settings and many other things. Even offer external over the net device management like Duet does.

One of most astonishing messages on the label was: Radio: 2.000+ stations.

I see that niche becomes small, very packed by elephants, and as it is written in many strategy books - niche position is difficult to keep over long time. There is only one way to get on track - to get out of niche and become a player on mass market. Logitech knows how to do it - look on devices around the globe. Each of us has one or more ;-) - I type this message on Logitech keyboard and using Logitech mouse. But this is a bit different market, would it work for Squeeze devices?

Staying in this niche seems to me become vitally dangerous.

nicolas75
2011-12-04, 05:43
...
Most of you say that server is essential - agree, but we do have it on each Apple notebook or even Windows one when we install iTune.

When I recall my experience with iTune - it is easy to install (it was actually one click), no extra configuration. When I wanted to rip CD - again it was done with one click. When I wanted to change tags - it is part of iTune functionality - it was very easy and very intuitive. Meaning average not-computer addicted person can do it with no special education. Whole cycle is done using preconfigured software named iTune.

I guess whole story is about usability. I would not invent the wheel by saying that complexity limits the market. I see that it was exactly this for Squeeze devices. I do not want to hammer it, just share the observation and experience.
...

You got it right, it is as simple as that.

Concerning the fact that people complain about the need to have a server, I think this is a technical misinterpretation of what people do complain about.

They do not complain about having a server.
There is a server for most music software in one way or another, TinySBS IS a server.
They do complain about the fact that they have to CARE about the server and its usability.

Sonos users usually don't have to care about Sonos server, some of them probably don't even know there is a server involved.

nolan
2011-12-04, 06:45
Part of the problem Logitech have is that the hardware is almost too good, my old SB3's do everything I want from them. I just bought a blemished box tough because of the price but I'll be keeping the SB3 in storage as I love the VFD displays.

Again with the server software (whatever it is called this week), what more can it do? The only thing I can see missing is user profiles.

They are never going to compete in Apple territory and that's a good thing. Whilst I admire Apple I'd rather live with some complexity in order to have something that works the way I want it to rather than live with iTunes' restrictions.

The trouble is, lots of people happily running SB2's and SB3''s doesn't sell kit does it?

My touch arrives on Tuesday so I may revise my opinion then :)

jimzak
2011-12-04, 09:20
It will be hard to find such a inexpensive, flexible hardware and software solution to just streaming music.

The inexpensive part really fits with the Logitech image in my mind.

The flexibility fits with Slim Devices image.

Anyone that is having consistent problems likely has a software or hardware kink that can be ironed out. Yes, it's a pain sometimes, but worth the trouble. My upgrade to 7.6.1 was particularly difficult; at one point I was sabotaged by a malformed jpeg file.

All of us in the U.S. should advertise on Craigslist as self-certified installers for SqueezeBox and propagate our love to other "victims."

nicolas75
2011-12-04, 10:52
...
Anyone that is having consistent problems likely has a software or hardware kink that can be ironed out. Yes, it's a pain sometimes, but worth the trouble. My upgrade to 7.6.1 was particularly difficult; at one point I was sabotaged by a malformed jpeg file.
...

Yes it can be ironed out.
But people do not want to do that and do not want to care about that.
You cannot say someone he struggles with the software because of a malformed jpeg artwork.
Malformed jepg artwork do not trash your library in popular music softwares, and there is absolutely no sensible reason for one single malformed file to trash a library.
(Or you must claim everywhere that Windows 95 was the best OS ever, and that everybody should use it and nothing else)

I recently started to use MonkeySqueeze.
I feel like someone who kept banging a hammer on his head for years, and discover how great it is to stop doing that :)

verypsb
2011-12-04, 11:31
I recently started to use MonkeySqueeze.

I think the whole point of buying a squeezbox is NOT having to use a computer or laptop to control your music. If I want to listen to music (using Media Monkey or other library program) on my pc or laptop I can hook it up to my stereo (by cable or bluetooth)

GeeJay
2011-12-04, 11:33
I have yet to find another inexpensive system that allows me to listen to my music in the manner I want. That is why I put up with the complexity, and I would have to answer that, no, as of today there isn't a good alternative to Squeezebox.

garym
2011-12-04, 11:35
I think the whole point of buying a squeezbox is NOT having to use a computer to listen to music. If I want to listen to music (using Media Monky or other library program) on my laptop I can hook it up to my stereo (by cable or bluetooth)

Unless you are using ONLY mysb.com (for internet radio and music services like pandora, spotify, etc.) you MUST have your own computer to listen to a squeezebox player. That computer can be a PC, a Mac, a NAS or other headless small computer that can run SbS/LMS, etc. (note, yes, one can use the "tinySbS inside a TOUCH, but I'm not really counting that for serious use).

And even though I have a computer with my music (running SbS or LMS), the computer is in a different part of the house and nowhere near the music listening post. That is, this is a benefit of SB over just having the computer connected to a DAC connected to your stereo (which is what I used to do until I discovered SB players that allowed me to get the computer out of the room and to get away from any and all issues related to what the computer did or didn't do with the music stream with its soundcard/OS.).

nicolas75
2011-12-04, 11:40
I think the whole point of buying a squeezbox is NOT having to use a computer to listen to music. If I want to listen to music (using Media Monkey or other library program) on my laptop I can hook it up to my stereo (by cable or bluetooth)

Since it is widely recognised that TinySBS cannot handle a reasonable library, you do need a computer to use a squeezebox, except if you stick to MySB and online streaming.
Note that a server or a NAS is a computer ...

I disagree about what you say because with Touch and MonkeySqueeze
- the computer does not need to be near the Touch, you can put it in another room.
- The sound quality is much better (OS audio settings are not involved whatsoever)
- You keep the ability to use Touch running TinySBS for online radios or streaming

This is the very good thing with a Squeezebox Touch, compared to any other solution with USB external dacs or whatever else.

verypsb
2011-12-04, 11:48
And even though I have a computer with my music (running SbS or LMS), the computer is in a different part of the house and nowhere near the music listening post.

That's the point I was trying to make. Yes, I do have a PC containing my music library and running LMS, but I don't want to use a pc/laptop to reach/use/unlock my library at my music listening post. I don't want to use a 3rd party library manager on my pc/laptop to unlock the music. I want something simple and user friendly like the Controller, iPeng, Squeezepad, Squeezecommander, NOT a PC or laptop. If I would want that I wouldn't need a Squeezebox in the first place, IMHO.

garym
2011-12-04, 11:54
That's the point I was trying to make. Yes, I do have a PC containing my music library and running LMS, but I don't want to use a pc/laptop to reach/use/unlock my library at my music listening post. I don't want to use a 3rd party library manager on my pc/laptop to unlock the music. I want something simple and user friendly like the Controller, iPeng, Squeezepad, Squeezecommander, NOT a PC or laptop. If I would want that I wouldn't need a Squeezebox in the first place.

OK. I agree with these points. (but if you reread your original post, it sounds like you are saying you DON'T need a computer to use SB players). ;-)

garym
2011-12-04, 11:55
OK. I agree with these points. (but if you reread your original post, it sounds like you are saying you DON'T need a computer to use SB players). ;-)

and I don't know about musicmonkey, but some interfaces like foobar2000 also have the ability to use iphone/ipad apps to control the interface. So one could use these to control the SB player from a different room. Which I agree is critical (at least for my use case)

Pascal Hibon
2011-12-05, 01:07
That is just one of the many advantages of Squeezebox; no matter how one wants to use it, it is supported by the system. Users have the option to use a computer (PC / laptop) to control the system. But users who don't want to use a computer (PC / laptop) to control the system have many options too (iPones, iPads, Android devices and even Blackberry).
Same thing goes for the local server: users have the choise not to have a local server, or run the local server on a NAS, PC, laptop etc.
The Squeezebox system is able to integrate into your existing environment very easy and adapt itself to your way of working.

AndreE
2011-12-05, 01:12
The discussion is getting hot ;-)
There was quite simple question: what can be used as an alternative to my duet?
Receiving an offer for Apple TV (second generation) with price tag below 100 Euro (Touch costs still 250+) I see it would be hard to keep the battle

Again, I am happy with my Logitech setup, just worry about its future.
if mysb.com will be off – will my whole system be able to listen radio?

Pascal Hibon
2011-12-05, 01:26
As a result of my quest for an alternative system to Squeezebox I'm going to buy a Touch. The store where I usually buy these thing have them for 239 Euro. They are currently sold out though. I guess this is due to the holiday season.
I sold one of my SB3's when I bought the Sonos ZP90. But now that I've sold the Sonos player I'm going to complete my system again with a Touch. For me there is still no Squeezebox alternative out there.

As to your question about listening to radio streams without mysqueezebox.com, yes that is possible. You can use a local server instead, or you can use TinySBS inside the Touch. Many radio stations have an URL for audio streaming and don't require a plugin.

toby10
2011-12-05, 03:13
T.........
if mysb.com will be off – will my whole system be able to listen radio?

As Pascal suggests, yes. But in a very limited capacity. You would loose all Apps and services hosted by MySB, along with all internet based stream navigation.

The only thing that *might* work within the Internet Radio menu item at all is Tune In URL, everything else in that menu is hosted by TuneIn.com which would not be usable absent MySB.

Internet Radio usage would essentially be down too simple cut & paste of basic URLS's from other programs into your Favorites.

AndreE
2011-12-06, 02:33
This sounds like Logitech needs to get sales up ;-) and have this business successful.

Than it would be my Christmas wish to Logitech !

andynormancx
2011-12-06, 04:21
Does Apple/Airplay have as many third party services as does SB or Sonos? I'm asking, I don't know. :)

It has more really. The way AirPlay works is that you can stream the audio bitstream of apps that are running on an iOS device to an AirPlay output device.

So for example you can open your third party app (or maybe website) on your iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad and can then broadcast the audio to your Apple TV/AirPort Express/other AirPlay output device.

It isn't as integrated as the Squeezebox approach, but it does have the benefit that third party services can just be added any code needing to be written by Apple to support each new service.

In many other ways of course it is far less capable than Squeezebox.

Monkeysage
2011-12-07, 07:07
"The X10 will act as a UpnP (Universal Plug & Play) Server, devices like PC's, Phones and Tablets can stream music from the X10. A UPnP client - and X10 without a hard drive can access an X10 with a hard drive (UPnP Server) and play music streamed from the Server. This allows music to be played in different rooms from the X10 Server. The X10 works as a Server to the Sonos System allowing ripping of CD's without the use of a computer."

Pascal Hibon
2011-12-07, 08:39
Personally I don’t really like these all-in-one box solutions. At first glance, they all look very appealing but the biggest issue with these things is that one has very little control over the ripping and tagging process. When it comes to tagging music files you always need to double check whether the downloaded information is correct and consistent with the way you want it. That is not so obvious with these all-in-one boxes.

garym
2011-12-07, 08:43
Personally I don’t really like these all-in-one box solutions. At first glance, they all look very appealing but the biggest issue with these things is that one has very little control over the ripping and tagging process. When it comes to tagging music files you always need to double check whether the downloaded information is correct and consistent with the way you want it. That is not so obvious with these all-in-one boxes.

you mean like vortexbox? As the owner and user of two vortexbox appliances, I agree. Nothing against the automatic vb approach (and I played with it just to see how it works, etc.). But for my ripping, I use dbpa to rip to FLAC (I'm particularly fond of ACCURATERIP, which VB doesn't have), then I make sure my tags and art is exactly what I want, then I use dbpa to create mp3 mirror (for my iphone/ipods). Then I move all this stuff onto the Vortexbox Appliances from my windows machine (over my network). Yes, a few steps and not "automatic" but it is an easy work flow and I know that what I end up with is exactly what I really want....

socistep
2011-12-07, 09:00
you mean like vortexbox? As the owner and user of two vortexbox appliances, I agree. Nothing against the automatic vb approach (and I played with it just to see how it works, etc.). But for my ripping, I use dbpa to rip to FLAC (I'm particularly fond of ACCURATERIP, which VB doesn't have), then I make sure my tags and art is exactly what I want, then I use dbpa to create mp3 mirror (for my iphone/ipods). Then I move all this stuff onto the Vortexbox Appliances from my windows machine (over my network). Yes, a few steps and not "automatic" but it is an easy work flow and I know that what I end up with is exactly what I really want....

For me the ease of use and automation wins out over some tagging inaccuracies, however what I will do is every month or so I use mp3tag to access the files on my vortexbox and correct any tags for new music - the tagging is actually pretty good now and I would say 80% of the time I am happy, however for something recent like Wilko's new album vortexbox didn't return any genre or year tags so I keen to correct that!

I also use bliss or the vortexbox 'get cover art' button for cover art which is very good for updating artwork. I guess one of the plus points for vortexbox is that you can easily get in afterwards to correct the results and it includes tools to help that.

I will however from time to time use something like Dbpoweramp for compilation albums which are a bit more troublesome.

Pascal Hibon
2011-12-07, 12:52
you mean like vortexbox?
I was referring to the boxes such as Cocktail Audio, Olive and the likes but I guess it would also apply to the Vortexbox. The Vortexbox is probably a bit more open than solutions like Cocktail Audio and Olive.
To each his own but I prefer to separate storage, ripping / tagging and streaming tasks. This way I maximize flexibility of the system.

Jokke
2012-03-06, 13:44
Anyone experience with the Onkyo T-4070?

gfrnd
2012-03-08, 07:33
One possible alternative is the Linn DS system; even their least expensive equipment is higher than SB but they do function in many ways that are similar, including hi rez FLAC. Given the concerns about SB longevity I have bought a couple of Linn Boxes and they work great, I use them in parallel to SB because I am convinced I want to be able to stream.

Limited or no controls on the boxes (depending on which one) but good IPad and pretty good Android controller options. Critics have said systems are very complex, but after spending my time getting and keeping SB systems running, setting up the Linn was very straightforward. I run both LMS and AssetUPnP on my server (WHS11) off of the same music directory.

Linn seems very committed to streaming, they continue to upgrade their boxes and promote them heavily. I haven't as of now done A/B with the transporter but will get around to it at some point.

garym
2012-03-08, 07:37
I'm curious as I've read different things about the Linn approach (and don't read any subtle, "SB approach is better" message in my questions. I'm really just curious (and certainly NOT hoping I have to move from SB stuff).

1. What do you use as the server (equivalent to LMS). Is it any sort of DLNA setup or is there something specific to the LINN. And whatever this is can also be controlled with apps on iphones, ipad, etc. (edit, sorry, you mentioned this)

2. I assume no problem with gapless or replaygain

3. what about things like dynamic playlists, etc. does whatever is serving the Linn have similar options?

4. Does the Linn server also work in conjunction with something that allows me to stream internet radio, services such as MOG or spotify, siriusXM radio, etc.?

DaveWr
2012-03-08, 09:17
As a Linn and SB user:

1) Linn stuff uses UPNP DLNA servers. You can use LMS. I run LMS for my SBs, but I also have a newer server, which is free called Minimserver. This provides some better search trees. I also run the iPAD control software from Linn called Kinsky also free. There are many other third part control point solutions.

2) Gapless no problem, but my server solution doesn't support replaygain. I think JRiver does?

3) No dynamic play listing from my control point. I think some servers can.

4) Linn seem to do software updates about twice a year. The latest added Airplay, allowing iThings to send audio straight to the DS, also Songcast which is available for PC and Mac, this can send Hires up to 192/24 streams to the DS.

Internet radio is supported through an external web provider.
No integration for MOG, Spotify, etc. - expectation is run their application and send to DS using Songcast.

Finally 5 year warranty on hardware.

Expensive but good, although not really the answer for a houseful.

Dave

Jeff Flowerday
2012-03-08, 10:09
I'm looking forward to the reviews on the Simaudio solution.

http://www.simaudio.com/pr_180MiND.htm

garym
2012-03-08, 10:27
As a Linn and SB user:

1) Linn stuff uses UPNP DLNA servers. You can use LMS. I run LMS for my SBs, but I also have a newer server, which is free called Minimserver. This provides some better search trees. I also run the iPAD control software from Linn called Kinsky also free. There are many other third part control point solutions.

2) Gapless no problem, but my server solution doesn't support replaygain. I think JRiver does?

3) No dynamic play listing from my control point. I think some servers can.

4) Linn seem to do software updates about twice a year. The latest added Airplay, allowing iThings to send audio straight to the DS, also Songcast which is available for PC and Mac, this can send Hires up to 192/24 streams to the DS.

Internet radio is supported through an external web provider.
No integration for MOG, Spotify, etc. - expectation is run their application and send to DS using Songcast.

Finally 5 year warranty on hardware.

Expensive but good, although not really the answer for a houseful.

Dave

Thanks Dave!

castalla
2012-03-08, 10:48
I'm looking forward to the reviews on the Simaudio solution.

http://www.simaudio.com/pr_180MiND.htm

They state on their site: 'The MOON 180 MiND will be available in April 2012 with an MSRP $1,250.00 USD'

They forgot to say on 1st April at that ridiculous price.

DaveWr
2012-03-08, 11:18
@garym

There is also this startup, a spin off from Linn:

http://simpleaudio.co.uk/overview

Dave

garym
2012-03-08, 12:34
@garym

There is also this startup, a spin off from Linn:

http://simpleaudio.co.uk/overview

Dave

interesting, looks like a higher end sonos. doesn't seem to do deal with music services. Not sure about serving library either....assume also DLNA. All this makes me appreciate my SB setup more and more....

DaveWr
2012-03-08, 13:04
Yes, a little bit more effort on product and then promotion and Squeeze could easily have had all the Sonos space.

your momo
2012-03-08, 13:45
@garym

There is also this startup, a spin off from Linn:

http://simpleaudio.co.uk/overview

Dave

Why from Linn? ...sounds much more Sonos like but in a black flat package
Very strange claim about 24bits HD audio ...but nothing about sample rate, might be not more than 48kHz, so not better than a 7 years old SB3
Amazing how hard it is to find a tempting alternative to SB line after all those years
Logitech could rule this world if only they would made an effort on installation process for newbee and put decent MCU & RAM in SB Touch to make it able to run LMS stand alone

verypsb
2012-03-10, 00:44
One possible alternative is the Linn DS system; even their least expensive equipment is higher than SB but they do function in many ways that are similar, including hi rez FLAC.

I wouldn't call a Linn system with a price tag of € 2000,- an alternative to a Touch with a price tag of € 200,- (ok, € 300,-) Higher price tag would be an understatement...

signor_rossi
2012-03-11, 02:34
interesting, looks like a higher end sonos. doesn't seem to do deal with music services. Not sure about serving library either....assume also DLNA. All this makes me appreciate my SB setup more and more....

The integration of powerline technology is neat, Logitech should make a Receiver II with that functionality, too. ;)
EDIT: Seems atm this only supports iTunes and samba, DLNA will follow.

DaveWr
2012-03-11, 08:54
Why from Linn? ...sounds much more Sonos like but in a black flat package
Very strange claim about 24bits HD audio ...but nothing about sample rate, might be not more than 48kHz, so not better than a 7 years old SB3
Amazing how hard it is to find a tempting alternative to SB line after all those years
Logitech could rule this world if only they would made an effort on installation process for newbee and put decent MCU & RAM in SB Touch to make it able to run LMS stand alone

Because the team doing this are part ex Linn staff.

dennis55
2012-03-11, 13:57
i had a serious look at the Linn streaming solution before i purchased the Transporter.

the major drawback for me was that their DS streamers are ETHERNET only,plus a very clunky interface.

they originally also had no user access to internet radio.......

i'm still happy with my Transporter amd LMS

dennis

Pascal Hibon
2012-03-12, 04:46
i had a serious look at the Linn streaming solution before i purchased the Transporter.

the major drawback for me was that their DS streamers are ETHERNET only,plus a very clunky interface.

they originally also had no user access to internet radio.......

i'm still happy with my Transporter amd LMS

dennis

Linn is not a multi-room system either. You can't synchronize different players. So in that sence it can't be an alternative to Squeezebox.

amey01
2012-03-13, 23:10
Why on earth would you look for an inferior alternative? Squeezebox is a one of a kind. It is for this reason you even have to ask such a question in the first place.

It is also for that reason that I think the future is bright. How could you think otherwise? Simply because they are not into planned obsolescence and a continual cycle of change-for-the-sake-of-change and "spinning wheels without traction"? The system is already nigh on perfect.

verypsb
2012-03-13, 23:31
Why on earth would you look for an inferior alternative?

I don't like the fact that development seems non-existent, and that the choice of Squeezebox models is shrinking rapidly.
I think the market wants a Boom II (or a Receiver II / Touch II with amp), a Receiver II and maybe a Touch II (a working embedded LMS server without limitations). The Boom II & Receiver II are the most obvious omissions compared to the competition...

DaveWr
2012-03-14, 11:16
Linn is not a multi-room system either. You can't synchronize different players. So in that sence it can't be an alternative to Squeezebox.

Incorrect, Songcast built into Linn DS boxes allows synchronised playback.

I own two DSs and 3 Squeezeboxes + a partly dead Boom.

David

amrace
2012-03-14, 12:39
I don't like the fact that development seems non-existent, that the choice of Squeezeboxmodels is shrinking rapidly.

I think you're right and the virtually zero presence of Squeezebox on the UK high street doesn't do much for the confidence of potential purchasers.
There are 53 wireless music players on the website of the John Lewis department store, there are Sonos, Airplay, Bluetooth players and one or two others between £84.99 and £1,199 but none are Squeezebox.
I realise that a Bluetooth player isn't in the same league as a Squeezebox but it's all some people require to play music from their ithing.

stop-spinning
2012-03-14, 12:58
If you want sound quality then a good alternative would be a Shuttle XH61 which is essentially a small form factor PC with zero fan cooling and the facility to stick in a really quick processor. Then connect that to a USB DAC.

Jokke
2012-03-14, 17:31
what about onkyo t-4070?

toby10
2012-03-15, 00:50
what about onkyo t-4070?

Looks like an overpriced ($ 1,200) streaming box with AirPlay. May as well get a Transporter or five SB Touch players for that price. ;)

bpa
2012-03-15, 03:17
I don't like the fact that development seems non-existent,

Maybe things are changing - they are hiring 2 development engineers http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=695879&postcount=27

DaveWr
2012-03-15, 08:39
Maybe things are changing - they are hiring 2 development engineers http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=695879&postcount=27

Good news - but with UPNP DLNA skills - Not Revue 2!

Dave

MelonMonkey
2012-03-19, 13:03
iPeng running on iDevices of your choice are the best alternative to Squeezebox in my opinion. You can even serve the music and host a private WiFi ad-hoc hotspot from a tiny mini computer - portable and mobile if you wish too.

Mnyb
2012-03-19, 13:15
Good news - but with UPNP DLNA skills - Not Revue 2!

Dave

That is a bit worrying upnp/dlna whatever has that to do with squeezeboxes :confused:

andyg
2012-03-19, 13:24
You should ignore most of what is in any job posting, as a general rule. :)

Mnyb
2012-03-19, 13:35
You should ignore most of what is in any job posting, as a general rule. :)

Yeah I would not qualify for my own job Today if I go by the adds my company sets up for new colleagues to me :)

qirex
2012-03-20, 11:22
The use case for me that nobody but logitech seems to care about is the bedroom stereo. When my alarm goes off I don't want to have to pick up my phone, make sure it's connected to wi-fi and in the right app just to be able to adjust the volume or skip a track. I've actually been thinking about getting another duet as backup in case this one dies because it's the exact setup I want.

pippin
2012-03-20, 11:41
Well, they do make a good bedside mono, though.

Jeff Flowerday
2012-03-29, 06:54
Well I'm now testing the following:

Asset UPNP, with a highly customized browse tree.
I have a small AsRock ION computer that is steatlthy quiet running headless with J River as the UPNP renderer->WASAPI Event Style->M2Tech Hiface
BubbleUPNP on my android phone.


Asset is free for basic functionality.
Any UPNP render will work. There are some dirt cheap options.
BubbleUPNP is $5 for the add free version.


If it works well over the next little bit I'll upgrade the hiface to an Audiophilleo2.

garym
2012-03-29, 07:07
Well I'm now testing the following:

Asset UPNP, with a highly customized browse tree.
I have a small AsRock ION computer that is steatlthy quiet running headless with J River as the UPNP renderer->WASAPI Event Style->M2Tech Hiface
BubbleUPNP on my android phone.


Asset is free for basic functionality.
Any UPNP render will work. There are some dirt cheap options.
BubbleUPNP is $5 for the add free version.


If it works well over the next little bit I'll upgrade the hiface to an Audiophilleo2.

I've followed this development (from just reading the dbpa forum). Looks like you can also get internet radio, but not necessarily anything like MOG, pandora, etc. Is this correct?

Also, not clear that I'd be able to do synch to different players. Correct? But I do assume that Spoon has solved the DLNA "gapless" issue. Correct?

Jeff Flowerday
2012-03-29, 07:34
I've followed this development (from just reading the dbpa forum). Looks like you can also get internet radio, but not necessarily anything like MOG, pandora, etc. Is this correct?

Also, not clear that I'd be able to do synch to different players. Correct? But I do assume that Spoon has solved the DLNA "gapless" issue. Correct?

Your correct on the internet radio. I have a large enough music collection that I can never get it all listened to, so radio and other streaming providers are my last concern.

As for gappless, I haven't tried that yet. I'll throw DSOTM on when I get home tonight and see what happens. Thanks for bringing it up that would be a deal breaker for me.

http://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showthread.php?25533-Gapless-playback-in-Asset&highlight=gapless

According to spoon, gapless needs to be dealt with properly by the UPNP renderer. I would hope J River would do it properly, but I'll find out tonight.

As for player syncing, I doubt it. But I've never synced with squeezebox, I just turn it up to get it loud enough everywhere. :)

garym
2012-03-29, 07:36
Your correct on the internet radio. I have a large enough music collection that I can never get it all listened to, so radio and other streaming providers are my last concern.

As for gappless, I haven't tried that yet. I'll throw DSOTM on when I get home tonight and see what happens. Thanks for bringing it up that would be a deal breaker for me.

http://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showthread.php?25533-Gapless-playback-in-Asset&highlight=gapless

According to spoon, gapless needs to be dealt with properly by the UPNP renderer. I would hope J River would do it properly, but I'll find out tonight.

thanks for checking on gapless... and on the synching question? I'm guessing no synching across multiple players?

Jeff Flowerday
2012-03-29, 07:41
thanks for checking on gapless... and on the synching question? I'm guessing no synching across multiple players?

I don't think there is syncing, I edited my post above as you posted this.

Jeff Flowerday
2012-03-29, 07:45
So far the only feature that I used very minimally is current playing reorganization. I can't see a way to reorder tracks in the current playing list. You can add and delete which is the important thing, I guess.

andyg
2012-03-29, 08:44
There is nothing preventing gapless from working on DLNA renderers, it's just a matter of proper playback design, but most of these are very dumb devices and not likely to care about gapless.

Sync is not something that is supported by DLNA at all. I suppose someone could design a protocol extension but you'd have to use products by only that vendor, etc.

MrC
2012-03-29, 09:02
...gapless needs to be dealt with properly by the UPNP renderer. I would hope J River would do it properly, but I'll find out tonight.


It's working great with MC17 and Whitebear/SBS. Both the JRiver folks and AndrewFG have worked hard to make this a reality.

bluegaspode
2012-03-29, 09:25
There is nothing preventing gapless from working on DLNA renderers, it's just a matter of proper playback design, but most of these are very dumb devices and not likely to care about gapless.

Isn't it, that the Controller has to observe the renderer to provide the next song, when the previous has finished (like on Squeezeboxes, that you only have one track in the playlist).
Or is there something in the protocol, that a Controller could send the URL of the next song, before the Renderer actually finished the current track?

andyg
2012-03-29, 09:59
There is support for a "Next URL", but yeah both the controller and renderer need to support it. You can also do it by sending m3u playlists which the renderer will expand I think.

pippin
2012-03-29, 10:57
You can also do it by sending m3u playlists which the renderer will expand I think.

But most renderers don't understand these since they are usually not supposed to hold a playlist (the controller does that).

Jeff Flowerday
2012-03-29, 18:01
thanks for checking on gapless... and on the synching question? I'm guessing no synching across multiple players?

Gapless isn't working.

Fortunately there are a couple options for controlling J River directly via iOS and Android.

argusalverde
2012-12-05, 10:56
Just saying, a raspberrypi (3 Watts) running squeezeplug works great if you don't mind HDMI out. Silent, cheap, low-power - does it all.

Argus

d6jg
2012-12-05, 14:02
I am thinking about a Pi & Plug player directly into my Onkyo via HDMI. What do folks think about the merits of HDMI against Optical or Coaxial digital?

Triode
2012-12-05, 14:07
I am thinking about a Pi & Plug player directly into my Onkyo via HDMI. What do folks think about the merits of HDMI against Optical or Coaxial digital?

I think usb to an async dac is probably better - I believe its only recent versions of HDMI which have supported the HDMI device controlling the playback clock. The pi works well with usb 2 devices, but has problems with usb 1/1.1 devices. However if the HDMI works for you then its a good solution..

d6jg
2012-12-05, 14:19
Thanks Triode. Good suggestion. I already have a Behringer UAC202 which I use for digitising vinyl. That has an passthrough Optical out as well as Analogue and should work with a Pi as a USB sound card without any additional drivers I imagine.
I like my main Living Room player (SB3) connected both digitally and analogue to benefit from Onkyo's Zone 2 output which I fire at a headphone amp. A Pi & DAC could ultimately replace that.
A Pi is definitely food for thought (excuse the pun).

NeilF
2013-03-18, 13:48
I have been looking too for an SB replacement but haven’t found one yet. I even bought a Sonos ZP90 several months ago to try the system. Sonos lacks a lot of basic functionally that SB had since many years. If your used the SB system then Sonos is not an option. In the mean time I have sold my ZP90.

Another one I looked at is Cambridge Audio’s NP30 http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=604 . This one seems to come close but due to its price I haven’t tested it yet. The only downside I see is that it uses UPnP. To be honest I have no experience with that but I’m afraid that UPnP is not ideal for large music libraries. Apart from that it still looks like a decent candidate to me (I should mention that I don’t use synchronised players).

What did you find lacking on the Sonos?

Pascal Hibon
2013-03-18, 15:09
What did you find lacking on the Sonos?

Well, it has been a while since I used the Sonos system but here is what I remember from using it for a while:

* There is no visible indication of what the ZP90 is doing. The white LED on the front of the device is always on (or always off; this configurable) but it does not give an indication of the player‘s status. Is the player streaming or not; impossible to know just by looking at the player. It is only by picking up a remote or running the desktop app that the status is revealed.

* Lack of an infrared remote. I find an IR remote very useful; for example to quickly mute the device when the phone rings. I also use a Harmony remote in my system and I often use that to skip songs to. The Harmony also toggles power on the Squeezebox when required. This is not possible with Sonos.

* A list of new music is not available. This is a feature I very often use on my Squeezeboxes. I find such a list very useful to quickly get t an album that I recently ripped.

* Albums are not listed by date. There is no way to influence how Sonos organizes albums when browsing for albums by artist.

* The iPod / iPhone remote often had troubles finding the ZP90 player. Had to restart it a couple of times before it finds the player. This might be related to my old gen 2 iPod Touch but I don’t have such issues with iPeng.

* The iPod Touch app uses too small cover art and font to list albums. This makes it quite difficult to read the display.

* Random song mix is possible on Sonos but it is rather implemented as a bad workaround. One needs to add his entire music library to the current playlist and then activate random play.

* Very poor WAV file support. An apparent issue is that Sonos is not able to list Various Artist when using WAV files.

* 65k song limit. This is even influenced in a negative way if playlists are used. This limitation exists because of their “server less” system. In fact, one of the zone players takes on the role of a server. Given the fact that zone players have limited cpu power, limits start to arise… such as the 65k song limit. True, I don’t have 65k songs in my library today but these are typical limits I want to avoid.

*…

Many of the above items have been listed on the Sonos forums. Many of these have been reported since many years, yet Sonos did nothing about it to this day. In that sense, Sonos is even worse than Logitech for listening to their customers.

In short, Sonos is no match for the user friendliness a Squeezebox system gives you. I have been spoiled by Squeezebox since 2005 and I just can’t live without the many great features it has. Some of the listed items may seem as minor, but believe me; you’ll get tired of the many shortcomings of a Sonos system after using them for a while. Once you are used to Squeezebox system, there are very little systems out there that can compete with the user experience a Squeezebox brings to the table.

JimC
2013-03-18, 15:41
interesting, looks like a higher end sonos. doesn't seem to do deal with music services. Not sure about serving library either....assume also DLNA. All this makes me appreciate my SB setup more and more....

It uses a Windows- or OSX-based application to serve the library to the boxes. You can control the devices using an iOS-app or the PC/Mac. This gives the advantage of not having all the complexity inherent in DLNA/UPnP services, but has the downside of needing the computer to be running whenever you want to get to your music.

Some cool things it does:
1. Supports multiple users, and each can have a different view of the library, as well as personal favorites, etc.
2. Elegantly handles libraries that go missing. For example, if one of the libraries is on a laptop, and that laptop is unavailable, that portion of the user's view won't show up until the library is back.
3. Uses Powerline networking so you get wired performance without having to run new wires.

Some cool things it doesn't do (yet):
1. Doesn't support sync playback if you have multiple units
2. Doesn't support gapless playback
3. Doesn't support Android-based phones/tablets for control
4. Doesn't support many music services (currently only supports TuneIn, We7, and Deezer)
5. Isn't available in a 110V version for the U.S. (only for UK and EU customers!)

DISCLAIMER: I used to work for Logitech, on the Squeezebox products. I moved to Corsair, who recently acquired Simple Audio. I am not responsible for selling Simple Audio products, but I do know a fair bit about both architectures so I can answer questions related to comparing the two platforms.

jimzak
2013-03-18, 17:01
Has anyone brought up the Nuvo line of wireless players yet? They do play high-res files and they work with wireless but they require their own gateway router.

One interesting feature is that if you attach a USB hard drive to any player, the player will allow that music to be played and perhaps streamed to other rooms, like the Touch's built-in server.

Here's the PCMag review:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2413360,00.asp

Here's the company website:

http://www.nuvotechnologies.com/wireless-systems

If this system has been brought up previously, sorry for the repetition.

cliveb
2013-03-19, 02:01
Re. Simple Audio:


It uses a Windows- or OSX-based application to serve the library to the boxes. You can control the devices using an iOS-app or the PC/Mac. This gives the advantage of not having all the complexity inherent in DLNA/UPnP services, but has the downside of needing the computer to be running whenever you want to get to your music.
Avoiding DLNA - good.
Not having a Linux server - bad.



2. Doesn't support gapless playback

It staggers me that anyone can contemplate building a new music playback device that doesn't support gapless. There is so much music out there which needs gapless support that it should automatically be on the "mandatory features" list before you even begin thinking about the design.

ReValveiT
2013-03-19, 06:02
It staggers me that anyone can contemplate building a new music playback device that doesn't support gapless. There is so much music out there which needs gapless support that it should automatically be on the "mandatory features" list before you even begin thinking about the design.

Absolutely.

I'm amazed to hear that STILL, even today, there are streamers out there that don't do gapless.

The mind absolutely boggles...

JimC
2013-03-19, 11:55
Re. Simple Audio:


Avoiding DLNA - good.
Not having a Linux server - bad.

Since I run a Linux box at home to serve my myriad Squeezeboxen, I agree.



It staggers me that anyone can contemplate building a new music playback device that doesn't support gapless. There is so much music out there which needs gapless support that it should automatically be on the "mandatory features" list before you even begin thinking about the design.

Again, I agree. Please note that I said "yet" in posting the good things it doesn't do... at some point in the--hopefully--no too distant future you'll see updated features like the above.

There is a lot of work to be done on improving the environment around the Simple Audio Roomplayer, but I can say this: they *sound* amazing. The whole thing is really well designed, in terms of the audio path, and the amplifier in the Roomplayer I is really, really good. The first time I heard them it was on a 20+year old set of Vandersteens and it sounded amazing. Simple also produces the Roomplayer II, which has no amp so you can use it as just a transport.


-=> Jim

Mnyb
2013-03-19, 22:01
Maybe it is the notoriously hard to get gapless on dlna , that throw of developers of other platforms to not think about it ?

JimC
2013-03-21, 15:03
Maybe it is the notoriously hard to get gapless on dlna , that throw of developers of other platforms to not think about it ?

Well, the founders are from Linn, as are a few others at the company, so that may well be the case. I must say, it is kind of cool spending time chatting with Martin Dalgleish about audio.


-=> Jim

maggior
2013-03-22, 05:47
It staggers me that anyone can contemplate building a new music playback device that doesn't support gapless. There is so much music out there which needs gapless support that it should automatically be on the "mandatory features" list before you even begin thinking about the design.

+1
I find this equally befuddling! I understand that formats like mp3 didn't support it in it's design, but the problem was solved long ago!!! And to not support gapless playback of formats that WERE designed for it (e.g. FLAC), it just completely absurd.

When I try out new players for my PC or my andriod mp3 player, the first thing I try is gapless playback. If that doesn't work, it gets immediately deleted.

NickSLK
2013-03-22, 06:44
Another +1 re gapless. It was one of several aspects that drew me to the Touch, even secondhand and with uncertain future.

I read this thread because I still can't believe what a super little thing SBT is. And why there is very little alternative. Naim Uniti would be next step, at six times the price and with an amp I don't need! Not even sure it would sound better out of the box.