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reniera
2011-10-16, 13:53
Today trackstat deactivated itself. After some research, i found out i'd have to install a license manager plugin and pay 20euros to reactivate it.

Way too expensive considering that the radio costed me 105 euros on amazon.

5 euros, i would have been unhappy but i would have paid. 20euros, i just deinstalled all these plugins. At least i improve the reliability.

I understand that developpers wants to be paid but i don't like that a free product becomes commercial overnight. I could understand that a new version of the plugin (with new features) becomes billable, but disabling a plugin that i was presented as free in the past makes me feel like taken in hostage.

Also, trackstat is poorly integrated, i believe and is not worst that price. As a comparaison, Ipeng is really cool and costs (only) 8euros and there is a free alternative from logitech.

Come on! Rating, play count should have been part of the core product from the beginning. How hard is it for logitech dev. to code this in the native database ? I mean, it's a piece a work, but quite nothing in comparaison of the whole product as it exists today. If only they weren't so busy with lms ...

m1abrams
2011-10-16, 14:00
I must say I agree. The price is just way too high for the product. I have enjoyed the plugin but not enough to pay that amount.

garym
2011-10-16, 20:30
Then don't buy it. Erland has provided a tremendous resource with his plugins. But no one is forcing you to purchase them. The software is always more expensive than the hardware. I have a few thousand invested in my equipment, but easily over $50k in CDs and vinyl albums.

Edit: and by investment I only mean for my own enjoyment, not any sort of monetary return.

Mnyb
2011-10-16, 21:08
Is that not fore the whole range of plugins and apps ?
And it is peanuts compared to what I spent on CD's downloads and hifi stuff to use it.

My fav function with this plug is the statistical playlists it builds.

I understand the man providing core functionality for free al these years ;)
(I also thinks that this and many other functions should be in the core product)

I remeber that erland actyally asked if anyone could take over of some of his plugins a while back, there where no one intrested.
This is much better than the alternative which is that he abandons the plugins.

He also gets a measurement of which plugins people really want.

bluegaspode
2011-10-16, 22:21
Is that not fore the whole range of plugins and apps ?
It's 20 $ single plugin, 50 $ all plugins

reniera
2011-10-16, 23:05
Then don't buy it. Erland has provided a tremendous resource with his plugins. But no one is forcing you to purchase them. The software is always more expensive than the hardware. I have a few thousand invested in my equipment, but easily over $50k in CDs and vinyl albums.

Edit: and by investment I only mean for my own enjoyment, not any sort of monetary return.

I also invested a lot of time to rate my collection ... And have to pay to use it now. That's what i mean by taken in hostage.
I would also be annoyed if musicbrainz asked me money tomorrow to read the tags i have encoded yesterday.
Just like if microsoft ask me now to pay to open the word document i have created in the past.

m1abrams
2011-10-17, 05:25
Then don't buy it. Erland has provided a tremendous resource with his plugins. But no one is forcing you to purchase them. The software is always more expensive than the hardware. I have a few thousand invested in my equipment, but easily over $50k in CDs and vinyl albums.

Edit: and by investment I only mean for my own enjoyment, not any sort of monetary return.

The do not buy it is obvious gee thanks. But the point of this thread was to point out that some users think the price is too high and are not buying it for that reason. This info may help erland understand how he might get more people to buy. Ipeng is a good example of proper pricing. It provides a huge amount more functionality at half the cost. If erlands price was lower I would jump on it.

Mnyb
2011-10-17, 05:38
This does not stop the old versions of the plugin to work ?
or does it ? I think Erland has a tread somewhere specifically for this.

However random changes by logitech migth make the plugin obselete soon enough, but that's not a new problem ,many plugins share this fate

garym
2011-10-17, 05:47
The do not buy it is obvious gee thanks. But the point of this thread was to point out that some users think the price is too high and are not buying it for that reason. This info may help erland understand how he might get more people to buy. Ipeng is a good example of proper pricing. It provides a huge amount more functionality at half the cost. If erlands price was lower I would jump on it.

I agree this is obvious. I guess I must just think about these things differently. I had already done donations to erland for his good work prior to this pricing in an amount in excess of what he now charges for a lifetime license. And I primarly only use SQL Playlist and Dynamic Playlists. But I do the same with mp3tag and other "free" programs.

There is no free lunch. The explicit cost is paying someone for the product. The implicit cost is losing future devlopment on useful plugins. Whether the price is a good price or not, I don't know. But a lifetime license for all his plugins for the cost of 3 to 6 CDs, seems like a bargain to me.

m1abrams
2011-10-17, 06:17
I agree this is obvious. I guess I must just think about these things differently. I had already done donations to erland for his good work prior to this pricing in an amount in excess of what he now charges for a lifetime license. And I primarly only use SQL Playlist and Dynamic Playlists. But I do the same with mp3tag and other "free" programs.

There is no free lunch. The explicit cost is paying someone for the product. The implicit cost is losing future devlopment on useful plugins. Whether the price is a good price or not, I don't know. But a lifetime license for all his plugins for the cost of 3 to 6 CDs, seems like a bargain to me.

Listen I do not think anyone is arguing that erland should not be able to charge for his product. Hell he can charge whatever he wants. My point is his approach and fee are such that I will not be paying for it. If he charged less or provided something new in this new version other than requiring a license he would get my money. Note this is MY requirements and no one else's if you feel it is properly priced great, I do not and will not buy it. This is not a bash on erland. In fact just the opposite, I want to buy the product but not at it's current price/value ratio. Lifetime license are not something I normally buy into mainly because they are only worth as much as the company behind them and in this case it is a single guy who while I do not think is going to stop anytime soon but if he did that license is not very useful.

FYI - I work as software developer

aubuti
2011-10-17, 06:34
I must say I agree. The price is just way too high for the product. I have enjoyed the plugin but not enough to pay that amount.
For the record, one month ago, when Erland announced the plugins were going commercial, he stated "...at the start the exact pricing will be up to you. You pay what you think a one year license is worth." (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=90410) So there was your chance to tell him that you didn't think it was worth 20 euros and still have the software function. True, some users were no doubt not on the forums in the past month, and may be surprised. But others were on the forums and must have been aware, or just not paying attention to what was in front of them.

exile
2011-10-17, 09:44
bottom line in my opinion is that erland's plugins have completely transformed my listening experience. so if erland now feels that in order to keep these fantastic plugins going that he needs some modest revenue then I think a modest charge is just fine. If people are too cheap then it's their loss.

garym
2011-10-17, 10:56
Just like if microsoft ask me now to pay to open the word document i have created in the past.

not a good comparison, as Microsoft charged you (or someone) a price to purchase the program that created the WORD document. No one is using WORD for free (at least not legally).

reniera
2011-10-17, 11:39
not a good comparison, as Microsoft charged you (or someone) a price to purchase the program that created the WORD document. No one is using WORD for free (at least not legally).

Ok, correct, then say that i used openoffice ( free), and suddenly, it becomes commercial.

My point here is that i have no way to recapture my ratings nor my play counts.

reniera
2011-10-17, 11:46
bottom line in my opinion is that erland's plugins have completely transformed my listening experience. so if erland now feels that in order to keep these fantastic plugins going that he needs some modest revenue then I think a modest charge is just fine. If people are too cheap then it's their loss.

Perhaps logitech would have felt obliged to develop those features if someone had not done the job for free...
I truly hope that logitech now understand that they cannot rely anymore on 3rd parties to develop core functionnalities.
Again track rating is a very basic features. Something you can't imagine paying on top.
The other more 'exotic' plugins of erland, i don't know. I only used trackstat.

cparker
2011-10-17, 11:48
Ok, correct, then say that i used openoffice ( free), and suddenly, it becomes commercial.

My point here is that i have no way to recapture my ratings nor my play counts.

So you have a few options;
1) Spend the $20 and buy some beer to drown your sorrows
2) Value Erland's time and pay $20, job done
3) Learn Perl yourself and write your own TrackStat, after you've spent many hours/months of your own "free" time, then maybe that $20 doesnt sound such bad value

reniera
2011-10-17, 11:52
So you have a few options;
1) Spend the $20 and buy some beer to drown your sorrows
2) Value Erland's time and pay $20, job done
3) Learn Perl yourself and write your own TrackStat, after you've spent many hours/months of your own "free" time, then maybe that $20 doesnt sound such bad value

4) stop spending my time using 3rd party plugins, waiting for core features to improve.

Btw, cparker, i paid for your plugin sugarcube. I find it correctly priced even if the paid version brings nothing compared to the free version as far as i'm concerned. ( but 20euros for trackstat, you must be joking !)

johnas
2011-10-17, 12:13
( but 20euros for trackstat, you must be joking !)

You could pay for the one year licence which I guess is 5$. Maybe you will think this is too much year over year but just saying there are cheaper options (ironically Eland's payment system seems to be down at the moment).

reniera
2011-10-17, 12:46
You could pay for the one year licence which I guess is 5$. Maybe you will think this is too much year over year but just saying there are cheaper options (ironically Eland's payment system seems to be down at the moment).

Indeed but i have installed squeezebox things at two other places and don't want to enter a system where i'd have to go to every places every years.

Damn ! I just realize i would have to pay 60 euros then for 3 servers ! Luckily, i had not installed more plugins from erlands around ! I guess i won't dare telling my sister and friend that they own me 20 euros each for the sound system i put at their places (especially after all the 7.6 problems)

Is it charged by server ? Or by email adress ? Now, i'm even more concerned if i have to pay when i change the server.

Realy, i want to stay out of that.

garym
2011-10-17, 12:54
Ok, correct, then say that i used openoffice ( free), and suddenly, it becomes commercial.

My point here is that i have no way to recapture my ratings nor my play counts.

The data is still there. You could program your own approach to using the data or pay someone to write a program to use the data. Of course, that is essentially what Erland is asking you to do.

aubuti
2011-10-17, 12:55
Perhaps logitech would have felt obliged to develop those features if someone had not done the job for free...
I truly hope that logitech now understand that they cannot rely anymore on 3rd parties to develop core functionnalities.
Again track rating is a very basic features. Something you can't imagine paying on top.
The other more 'exotic' plugins of erland, i don't know. I only used trackstat.
Please don't forget that one person's "core feature" is another person's "exotic plugin". I use a lot of plugins, including some of Erland's, and never once thought about using TrackStat, even when it was free. I think DynamicPlaylist and SQLPlaylist are much closer to being "core features" than TrackStat. You probably won't agree, but then that's my point: Logitech can't be developing everyone's idea of core features.

Btw, I don't know TrackStat, but doesn't it store your ratings and play counts in the SQL database? If so, then the time you spent isn't lost, as you can recapture them using any of several utilities that read SQL. Many of them are free.

garym
2011-10-17, 12:57
Indeed but i have installed squeezebox things at two other places and don't want to enter a system where i'd have to go to every places every years.

Damn ! I just realize i would have to pay 60 euros then for 3 servers ! Luckily, i had not installed more plugins from erlands around ! I guess i won't dare telling my sister and friend that they own me 20 euros each for the sound system i put at their places (especially after all the 7.6 problems)

Is it charged by server ? Or by email adress ? Now, i'm even more concerned if i have to pay when i change the server.

Realy, i want to stay out of that.


My understanding: The license is tied to you as a mysqueezebox.com user. So if you have multiple servers, but they are all identified to your mysqueezebox.com account, there is only a single license for all the servers. It certainly works on all my instances of SbS, but again, all my SbS are tied to my single mysb.com account.

garym
2011-10-17, 12:59
Please don't forget that one person's "core feature" is another person's "exotic plugin". I use a lot of plugins, including some of Erland's, and never once thought about using TrackStat, even when it was free.

good point. I use sql playlist and dynamic playlist every day. But have never used trackstat.

flattermann
2011-10-17, 13:03
Is it charged by server ? Or by email adress ? Now, i'm even more concerned if i have to pay when i change the server.

Realy, i want to stay out of that.

It's charged by your MySB.com identity (=MySB email address).

If you have several servers, all connected to the same MySB.com account, you only need to pay once.

Edit: I'm getting old and slow. ;-)

reniera
2011-10-17, 13:35
Please don't forget that one person's "core feature" is another person's "exotic plugin".

I respect your opinion, but seriously, track rating and play count were present in all media players I used in the past (winamp, itunes, mediamonkey, Windows Media players, ipod, ipad).

socistep
2011-10-18, 07:15
I respect your opinion, but seriously, track rating and play count were present in all media players I used in the past (winamp, itunes, mediamonkey, Windows Media players, ipod, ipad).

I would agree on ratings being important and central to a number of other products, however as a comparison Sonos (I believe, could be wrong) doesn't have any support for ratings.

For the record the 2 important Erland plugins I use are Trackstat and Dynamic Playlists based on the ratings, a lot of our listening is based on Top Rated All, pop, rock, indie, 80s, 90s, 00s etc.

socistep
2011-10-18, 07:17
bottom line in my opinion is that erland's plugins have completely transformed my listening experience. so if erland now feels that in order to keep these fantastic plugins going that he needs some modest revenue then I think a modest charge is just fine. If people are too cheap then it's their loss.

spot on

grzlhmpf
2011-10-18, 07:26
I have never used any of erlangs advanced plugins... i played around with trackstat but i don't really need it.
looking at the dynamic playlist stuff was on my "todo for later" list... i'll mark that one as "skip it", i never really got what all that is about anyway and now i am certainly NOT going to pay for a functionality i may not need or use anyway... certaintly not for $20 or $50...

and dont tell me there is a trial period, i know.

existing users will certainly pay, but i guess new squeezebox owners will not be willing to open their wallet again at that pricepoint.
If you install any of those plugins the first message is "license manager needed" and then EVERY plugin asks for a license... most poeple will probably never check the pricing but delete those plugins right away.

I have donated to quite a few projects in the past and will continue to do so, so i am not opposed to paying and/or donating but i don't think this is going to work.

Mike

socistep
2011-10-18, 08:21
I have never used any of erlangs advanced plugins... i played around with trackstat but i don't really need it.
looking at the dynamic playlist stuff was on my "todo for later" list... i'll mark that one as "skip it", i never really got what all that is about anyway and now i am certainly NOT going to pay for a functionality i may not need or use anyway... certaintly not for $20 or $50...

and dont tell me there is a trial period, i know.

existing users will certainly pay, but i guess new squeezebox owners will not be willing to open their wallet again at that pricepoint.
If you install any of those plugins the first message is "license manager needed" and then EVERY plugin asks for a license... most poeple will probably never check the pricing but delete those plugins right away.

I have donated to quite a few projects in the past and will continue to do so, so i am not opposed to paying and/or donating but i don't think this is going to work.

Mike

The way I view the paid for 3rd party apps/plugins now is that they are optional extras, much in the same way when I bought a buggy for our baby it was extra for a footmuff, raincover, matching bag etc.

aubuti
2011-10-18, 08:46
I have donated to quite a few projects in the past and will continue to do so, so i am not opposed to paying and/or donating but i don't think this is going to work.
You may think the old approach of depending on voluntary donations was working, but apparently it wasn't working for Erland, or he wouldn't have changed it. It's not surprising to me that it wasn't sustainable for the author. I'm glad he decided to try giving the commercial approach a go rather than simply deciding to pack it in. Do you think that would work better?

It's also not surprising that for some users, any price higher than "free" will be too much. But I'm also sure that some new users will be sufficiently interested and willing to pay, maybe after they find out what the plugins and applets do.

cunobelinus
2011-10-19, 08:33
Charging is fine. Charge new customers by all means (or old customers who want to add new plug ins) but not for goods already supplied. However, if I understand this correctly, the intention is to charge retrospectively.

Charging retrospectively for a commodity - any commodity - that was initially provided in return for good will or an optional donation is at best exploitative, and seems to me to be actually dishonest. The initial terms of supply constitute an agreement or contract. Changing them retrospectively is at the very least to act in bad faith. Id be surprised if it is not also illegal in pretty much any legal code one would care to research.


On 18 Oct 2011, at 16:46, aubuti wrote:

>
> grzlhmpf;664066 Wrote:
>> I have donated to quite a few projects in the past and will continue to
>> do so, so i am not opposed to paying and/or donating but i don't think
>> this is going to work.
> You may think the old approach of depending on voluntary donations was
> working, but apparently it wasn't working for Erland, or he wouldn't
> have changed it. It's not surprising to me that it wasn't sustainable
> for the author. I'm glad he decided to try giving the commercial
> approach a go rather than simply deciding to pack it in. Do you think
> that would work better?
>
> It's also not surprising that for some users, any price higher than
> "free" will be too much. But I'm also sure that some new users will be
> sufficiently interested and willing to pay, maybe after they find out
> what the plugins and applets do.
>
>
> --
> aubuti
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=90975
>
>

Phil Leigh
2011-10-19, 08:54
Charging is fine. Charge new customers by all means (or old customers who want to add new plug ins) but not for goods already supplied. However, if I understand this correctly, the intention is to charge retrospectively.

Charging retrospectively for a commodity - any commodity - that was initially provided in return for good will or an optional donation is at best exploitative, and seems to me to be actually dishonest. The initial terms of supply constitute an agreement or contract. Changing them retrospectively is at the very least to act in bad faith. Id be surprised if it is not also illegal in pretty much any legal code one would care to research.


On 18 Oct 2011, at 16:46, aubuti wrote:

>
> grzlhmpf;664066 Wrote:
>> I have donated to quite a few projects in the past and will continue to
>> do so, so i am not opposed to paying and/or donating but i don't think
>> this is going to work.
> You may think the old approach of depending on voluntary donations was
> working, but apparently it wasn't working for Erland, or he wouldn't
> have changed it. It's not surprising to me that it wasn't sustainable
> for the author. I'm glad he decided to try giving the commercial
> approach a go rather than simply deciding to pack it in. Do you think
> that would work better?
>
> It's also not surprising that for some users, any price higher than
> "free" will be too much. But I'm also sure that some new users will be
> sufficiently interested and willing to pay, maybe after they find out
> what the plugins and applets do.
>
>
> --
> aubuti
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=90975
>
>

Under EU law it is indeed illegal to disable or otherwise distrain or deprive one of the enjoyment of goods or services that were supplied previously under one set of terms - in this case "for free" -
UNLESS it was made plain in writing at the time of the original supply that a defined-cost charge or a defined expiry would become effective at a defined date in the future.

This is to avoid consumers being held to ransom or "suckered-in".

However, in this case (software) it only applies to a defined version of the plugin - the last one freely published prior to the introduction of a notified charge. So while it is perfectly valid to introduce a charge for new versions, it cannot legally be applied retrospectively. The consumer ALWAYS has the right to continue to enjoy the old, free version or CHOOSE to pay for the new version.

cunobelinus
2011-10-19, 10:12
Is that what's being offered here, though? If so, then fine. It would be both legal and entirely reasonable. My impression from the initial post in this thread, however, was that - to quote its first sentence - "trackstat deactivated itself". This implies that an existing update had been unilaterally deactivated by the vendor in expectation of payment (although I realise now that that might imply merely the end of a trial period). If that's not the case, then clearly I have missed something and misunderstood what all the fuss is about.

Erland's opening post in his thread about this might be read either way: to suggest that this will apply only to new installations, or that charges will be applied retrospectively for existing installations. He said: "The plugin/applet will be required for the people using my other applets or plugins." His use of "using" seems to imply strongly that those already "using" the plug ins will be affected, whether they like it or not.

That implication is further strengthened in the next part of that sentence: "The purpose is that the full functionality in the applets/plugins will slowly start to only be available for paying customers" ."Slowly" is then defined as being rolled out from a few plug ins initially to, perhaps, his full range. It is possible that this is intended to apply only to new installations, but that was not my understanding when reading it, and if that is the intention it is by no means clear.

If it is intended to charge only for new installations, while $20 seems a very high price for a plug in for an existing application when set against common pricing paradigms elsewhere, he has every right to ask whatever price he thinks will give him the best income. It's his work and his time.

If not - well, that's a different matter entirely, as your excellent post makes very clear, Phil. Some clarification from Erland would be helpful.

On 19 Oct 2011, at 16:54, Phil Leigh wrote:

> The consumer ALWAYS has the right to continue to enjoy the old, free
> version or CHOOSE to pay for the new version.

cparker
2011-10-19, 11:53
Under EU law it is indeed illegal to disable or otherwise distrain or deprive one of the enjoyment of goods or services that were supplied previously under one set of terms - in this case "for free" -
UNLESS it was made plain in writing at the time of the original supply that a defined-cost charge or a defined expiry would become effective at a defined date in the future.


Can you provide a source for this quotation? The older version still seems to work fine so the change/charge is not being applied retrospectively.

GeeJay
2011-10-19, 19:48
My plugins worked fine until I upgraded, several weeks after he introduced License Manager and the new versions of his plug-ins. It was clear to me that if I upgraded I would have to pay the fee, but as long as I didn't I could still use the older version.

I've been sending annual donations to Erland for awhile now, at an amount that is consistent with what he's charging. I obviously believe it's worth the price.

reniera
2011-10-20, 00:07
My plugins worked fine until I upgraded, several weeks after he introduced License Manager and the new versions of his plug-ins. It was clear to me that if I upgraded I would have to pay the fee, but as long as I didn't I could still use the older version.

I've been sending annual donations to Erland for awhile now, at an amount that is consistent with what he's charging. I obviously believe it's worth the price.

Plugins got upgraded I guess because my setup is 'upgrade plugins automatically'. Erland would have been better inspired to create a new set of commercial plugins so there is no automatic update from the free ones. Also, given all the issues after the 7.6 migration, I have done more upgrades than usualy to correct i.e. issues between trackstat and 7.6!

Perhaps your positive appreciation of the Erland plugins come that you are on squeeezebox from ealier versions. I started with 7.6 (on a plug) one year ago and I can tell you that I have had many problems with 7.6 (beta) and those plugins. My experience is therefore different as I have had only very short period of stability. It's only now, a couple of weeks after 7.6.2 that I can enjoy a stable system and it suddenly becomes commercial.

I bet there will be no easy way for non-techies to revert to free versions even if they would like to.

I still hope for Logitech to develop the ratings in the core product. That would then be a competitive advantage to Sonos. The need to have a server is a pain (compared to Sonos that doesn't) but once you get such a server in place, it can run those rating/stats things, that Sonos can't.

Note : I don't argue on paying 'something' for those plugins but 20 or 50$ is just too expensive i.e. compared to ipeng that also benefits from a good support from a developper who also spend a lot of time on it.

flattermann
2011-10-20, 03:01
Note : I don't argue on paying 'something' for those plugins but 20 or 50$ is just too expensive i.e. compared to ipeng that also benefits from a good support from a developper who also spend a lot of time on it.
You are probably right that downgrading or altering the source code is not easy for most people.

But regarding the higher price compared to iPeng: The problem is that there are probably a lot less people installing and buying a SBS plugin than installing a mobile app.

And iOS in particular has the advantage that many users are willing to pay for a good piece of software...

Sent from my Galaxy Tab using Tapatalk.

cunobelinus
2011-10-20, 04:30
Well, I've just tried to use my long-standing, pre-existing installation of "Multi-Library", which I was not aware of upgrading, and it's demanding the licensing plug in. That appears to be retrospective charging, in that it disables an existing service and then demands payment without notice, and would therefore appear to be illegal under EU law.


On 20 Oct 2011, at 08:07, reniera wrote:

>
> GeeJay;664374 Wrote:
>> My plugins worked fine until I upgraded, several weeks after he
>> introduced License Manager and the new versions of his plug-ins. It was
>> clear to me that if I upgraded I would have to pay the fee, but as long
>> as I didn't I could still use the older version.
>>
>> I've been sending annual donations to Erland for awhile now, at an
>> amount that is consistent with what he's charging. I obviously believe
>> it's worth the price.
>
> Plugins got upgraded I guess because my setup is 'upgrade plugins
> automatically'. Erland would have been better inspired to create a new
> set of commercial plugins so there is no automatic update from the free
> ones. Also, given all the issues after the 7.6 migration, I have done
> more upgrades than usualy to correct i.e. issues between trackstat and
> 7.6!
>
> Perhaps your positive appreciation of the Erland plugins come that you
> are on squeeezebox from ealier versions. I started with 7.6 (on a plug)
> one year ago and I can tell you that I have had many problems with 7.6
> (beta) and those plugins. My experience is therefore different as I
> have had only very short period of stability. It's only now, a couple
> of weeks after 7.6.2 that I can enjoy a stable system and it suddenly
> becomes commercial.
>
>
> --
> reniera
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> reniera's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=40705
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=90975
>
>

flattermann
2011-10-20, 04:37
Well, I've just tried to use my long-standing, pre-existing installation of "Multi-Library", which I was not aware of upgrading, and it's demanding the licensing plug in. That appears to be retrospective charging, in that it disables an existing service and then demands payment without notice, and would therefore appear to be illegal under EU law.


Have you maybe activated automatic plugin updates on the SBS?

BTW: Remember, Erland's plugins are open source!
You can grab every Revision of his plugins from the SVN repository at
http://code.google.com/p/erlandplugins/source/browse/MultiLibrary/

And if you do not want to use the source from the repository, you can also download old MultiLibrary packages from here:
http://erland.isaksson.info/download/do/viewapplication?name=slimserver-multilibrary

mherger
2011-10-20, 04:38
> Well, I've just tried to use my long-standing, pre-existing installation
> of "Multi-Library", which I was not aware of upgrading, and it's
> demanding the licensing plug in. That appears to be retrospective
> charging, in that it disables an existing service and then demands
> payment without notice, and would therefore appear to be illegal under
> EU law.

You should sue Erland. Really. After offering his services for years he
now wants to have a beer? This must be illegal.

Guys, your postings are poor jokes.

--

Michael

cunobelinus
2011-10-20, 04:45
On 20 Oct 2011, at 12:38, Michael Herger wrote:

>> Well, I've just tried to use my long-standing, pre-existing installation
>> of "Multi-Library", which I was not aware of upgrading, and it's
>> demanding the licensing plug in. That appears to be retrospective
>> charging, in that it disables an existing service and then demands
>> payment without notice, and would therefore appear to be illegal under
>> EU law.
>
> You should sue Erland. Really. After offering his services for years he
> now wants to have a beer? This must be illegal.
>
> Guys, your postings are poor jokes.
>
> --
>
> Michael

OK, if you like.

I have no objection whatever to people charging for their work, but within the law. Retrospective charging is not.

I wouldn't dream of telling someone I was making a gift of something - anything - and then enforcing payment for it after my gift had been accepted.

This "have a beer" argument is spurious and utterly disingenuous. "Fancy a pint? OK Here it is. That's 20 Euros, please". Pathetic, Michael, truly pathetic.

socistep
2011-10-20, 04:48
> Well, I've just tried to use my long-standing, pre-existing installation
> of "Multi-Library", which I was not aware of upgrading, and it's
> demanding the licensing plug in. That appears to be retrospective
> charging, in that it disables an existing service and then demands
> payment without notice, and would therefore appear to be illegal under
> EU law.

You should sue Erland. Really. After offering his services for years he
now wants to have a beer? This must be illegal.

Guys, your postings are poor jokes.

--

Michael

Agree here, Erland has put a massive effort in supporting and developing the playlists, just be thankful you got years of free usage and free support, if you want to continue then pay up or if not don't

If the price is too much then how about paying for a year at a lower cost and then saving up over the year for the lifetime cost

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

garym
2011-10-20, 04:51
> Well, I've just tried to use my long-standing, pre-existing installation
> of "Multi-Library", which I was not aware of upgrading, and it's
> demanding the licensing plug in. That appears to be retrospective
> charging, in that it disables an existing service and then demands
> payment without notice, and would therefore appear to be illegal under
> EU law.

You should sue Erland. Really. After offering his services for years he
now wants to have a beer? This must be illegal.

Guys, your postings are poor jokes.

--

Michael

agree. unfortunately, my prediction on the end result of all this legal discussion is that Erland will say, "ok, everything is free, but I've stopped development and when they quit working with upgrades, you're on your own...."

p.s. I believe the old versions DO WORK if one doesn't upgrade so I think Erland is fine under EU law.

socistep
2011-10-20, 04:52
On 20 Oct 2011, at 12:38, Michael Herger wrote:

>> Well, I've just tried to use my long-standing, pre-existing installation
>> of "Multi-Library", which I was not aware of upgrading, and it's
>> demanding the licensing plug in. That appears to be retrospective
>> charging, in that it disables an existing service and then demands
>> payment without notice, and would therefore appear to be illegal under
>> EU law.
>
> You should sue Erland. Really. After offering his services for years he
> now wants to have a beer? This must be illegal.
>
> Guys, your postings are poor jokes.
>
> --
>
> Michael

OK, if you like.

I have no objection whatever to people charging for their work, but within the law. Retrospective charging is not.

I wouldn't dream of telling someone I was making a gift of something - anything - and then enforcing payment for it after my gift had been accepted.

This "have a beer" argument is spurious and utterly disingenuous. "Fancy a pint? OK Here it is. That's 20 Euros, please". Pathetic, Michael, truly pathetic.

Pay it or don't, sometimes life brings up some tough luck, and in the grand scheme of things this is pretty small fry....IMO

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

mherger
2011-10-20, 05:02
> I have no objection whatever to people charging for their work, but
> within the law. Retrospective charging is not.

Sure. Sue him.

--

Michael

Soulkeeper
2011-10-20, 05:21
Oh, so this is why Custom Browse doesn't work anymore (I haven't read this thread before). I occasionally used it to browse artist by letter. Oh well. I guess I can do without.

It was of course noble of Erland to make this plugin for free originally. But marketing-wise, I can't help thinking that nag-ware (or, well, anything, really) would have been more psychologically effective than the give-and-then-take-away approach.

After all, software, and especially UI, is at least 50% psychology. Too many developers fail to realize that.

socistep
2011-10-20, 05:35
Oh, so this is why Custom Browse doesn't work anymore (I haven't read this thread before). I occasionally used it to browse artist by letter. Oh well. I guess I can do without.

It was of course noble of Erland to make this plugin for free originally. But marketing-wise, I can't help thinking that nag-ware (or, well, anything, really) would have been more psychologically effective than the give-and-then-take-away approach.

After all, software, and especially UI, is at least 50% psychology. Too many developers fail to realize that.

I doubt marketing came into any initial plans, it was probably born from a technical interest in improving squeezeboxserver, then as the years have gone by the overhead of running the plugins has increased - at that point I think for Erland it was a stop the plugins or get some financial compensation

bluegaspode
2011-10-20, 05:56
I have no objection whatever to people charging for their work, but within the law. Retrospective charging is not.


He could have renamed all the new versions of his plugins to "7.6 edition". Then you'd have been in the same situation.

All plugins for free (and to be installed manually) but only tested and working well with the 7.5er version of Logitechs server. All plugins for money if one wants them to work with the new 7.6 version.

I'd be interested of a quote of this law myself by the way. Can anyone post a link?

As a user of only the albumflow and screenswitcher applet I think the pricing of 40$ would be a little bit to high for me as well. But thinking a bit more: recently I used Multilibrary (which in turn requires Custom-Browse) to seperate the albums of my kids from the main library. And 50$ for all four still hurt a bit (when one is being used to get full-blown iPad games for 5$) but then again still feels reasonable given the time erland had to spend to create all this (and given that those iPad Games are nice for a week or two ... and erlands plugins will serve me many more years).

So yeah - pricing might look a bit high on first sight - but when you compare to normal pricing of software outside the AppStore world, it looks quite normal (gosh - even WinZip is 50$).

pippin
2011-10-20, 05:59
There's one thing I don't understand here:
If it's really as unimportant a feature to you as some claim here, then why is it worth to make such a fuss around it?

I _know_ how much work it is not just to develop something for the Squeezebox environment, but more importantly, just to MAINTAIN it. You have to work on it almost every day, not to add new functionality but just to keep it running and to help people make it work for them.

Yes, TrackStat of half a year ago will probably no longer work today. If you use Squeezebox Server of today, that is.
The reason for this is actual WORK that has to go into it to keep it running.

Erland has been outspoken here for YEARS now, that he needs help because it's otherwise beyond what he can stem to support his plugins. As far as I can see without getting any help.

All of his plugins are under GPL. If you are unhappy about his pricing: just take the code, do the maintenance yourself and distribute them for free, if you really believe that's more fair. If you've read his licensing page you should know that because he writes it there himself.

I've seen how much Erland has contributed to the Squeezebox community and he's one of those people who I believe belong into the category of "without him, the Squeezebox would already no longer be here". And I'm serious about that. Because he helped to make it the system of choice for a lot of people who now are buying Squeezeboxen and making Logitech continue the product.

Ans as opposed to others like myself, he never got rewarded for it so far. How many people donated in the past.
Is his pricing fair? I don't know. Everybody has to decide for him or herself how much a feature is worth for them, there is no such thing as a "fair" or "unfair" price as long as you have the choice, if this stuff is so unimportant to you, why not just uninstall it?

reniera
2011-10-20, 06:07
> Well, I've just tried to use my long-standing, pre-existing installation
> of "Multi-Library", which I was not aware of upgrading, and it's
> demanding the licensing plug in. That appears to be retrospective
> charging, in that it disables an existing service and then demands
> payment without notice, and would therefore appear to be illegal under
> EU law.

You should sue Erland. Really. After offering his services for years he
now wants to have a beer? This must be illegal.

Guys, your postings are poor jokes.

--

Michael

Michael, are you from Logitech ? If you are not, fine, I respect your opinion and don't read further. If you are, I can tell you that you have no idea what such statement can create in term of bad feeling about a company and products that were once so desired. You seriously meant that we have to pay for fixing your product ?
Realy, if you are from Logitech, you better be back to dev. work and add this basic code in 7.6.3 and close the discussion.

cunobelinus
2011-10-20, 06:08
On 20 Oct 2011, at 13:21, Soulkeeper wrote:

>
> Oh, so this is why Custom Browse doesn't work anymore (I haven't read
> this thread before). I occasionally used it to browse artist by letter.
> Oh well. I guess I can do without.

I've never previously attempted to use Multi Library, despite downloading it some months ago. I tried to do so this time only as an experiment for this thread. I can certainly do without it. That's not the point.
>
> It was of course noble of Erland to make this plugin for free
> originally. But marketing-wise, I can't help thinking that nag-ware
> (or, well, anything, really) would have been more psychologically
> effective than the give-and-then-take-away approach.

And would have been within the law. Perhaps, though, Erland likes the thrill of putting himself outside it and then getting his mates to shout "sue him"; or is happy in the the knowledge that he is behaving in a way that the legislative bodies of the EU and its constituent states - representative of how many million people? - have agreed is so shabby and dishonest that it should not be allowed.

Well, a couple of days ago, I might well have paid for future updates for this - despite not using it - and maybe for those of a couple more of his plug ins that I've got on the system but never or very rarely used. I'd have been happy to do so for future updates, too, if I used them and had been given a choice. But I'm certainly not paying for them now.
>
> After all, software, and especially UI, is at least 50% psychology. Too
> many developers fail to realize that.

Too many developers can't even spell it (let alone "psychology").

socistep
2011-10-20, 06:15
Michael, are you from Logitech ? If you are not, fine, I respect your opinion and don't read further. If you are, I can tell you that you have no idea what such statement can create in term of bad feeling about a company and products that were once so desired. You seriously meant that we have to pay for fixing your product ?
Realy, if you are from Logitech, you better be back to dev. work and add this basic code in 7.6.3 and close the discussion.

wrong - its not fixing the product, squeezebox is open source so anyone can develop a plugin of which there are a wide variety, its enhancing the base server software not fixing it.

mherger
2011-10-20, 06:17
>> You should sue Erland. Really. After offering his services for years he
>> now wants to have a beer? This must be illegal.
>>
>> Guys, your postings are poor jokes.
>
> Michael, are you from Logitech ? If you are not, fine, I respect your
> opinion and don't read further.

Even though I'm a Logitech employee I may have my own opinion, right?

Ok, I take some of my words back. Don't sue him.

--

Michael

socistep
2011-10-20, 06:20
On 20 Oct 2011, at 13:21, Soulkeeper wrote:

>
> Oh, so this is why Custom Browse doesn't work anymore (I haven't read
> this thread before). I occasionally used it to browse artist by letter.
> Oh well. I guess I can do without.

I've never previously attempted to use Multi Library, despite downloading it some months ago. I tried to do so this time only as an experiment for this thread. I can certainly do without it. That's not the point.
>
> It was of course noble of Erland to make this plugin for free
> originally. But marketing-wise, I can't help thinking that nag-ware
> (or, well, anything, really) would have been more psychologically
> effective than the give-and-then-take-away approach.

And would have been within the law. Perhaps, though, Erland likes the thrill of putting himself outside it and then getting his mates to shout "sue him"; or is happy in the the knowledge that he is behaving in a way that the legislative bodies of the EU and its constituent states - representative of how many million people? - have agreed is so shabby and dishonest that it should not be allowed.

Well, a couple of days ago, I might well have paid for future updates for this - despite not using it - and maybe for those of a couple more of his plug ins that I've got on the system but never or very rarely used. I'd have been happy to do so for future updates, too, if I used them and had been given a choice. But I'm certainly not paying for them now.
>
> After all, software, and especially UI, is at least 50% psychology. Too
> many developers fail to realize that.

Too many developers can't even spell it (let alone "psychology").


Would love to see you take this to the european court of law, go for it, the majority will just sit back and listen to some music complimented by Erlands excellent plugins, but do keep us all updated with progress of your legal adventure if you decide to go for it

flattermann
2011-10-20, 06:23
> It was of course noble of Erland to make this plugin for free
> originally. But marketing-wise, I can't help thinking that nag-ware
> (or, well, anything, really) would have been more psychologically
> effective than the give-and-then-take-away approach.[/color]

And would have been within the law. Perhaps, though, Erland likes the thrill of putting himself outside it and then getting his mates to shout "sue him"; or is happy in the the knowledge that he is behaving in a way that the legislative bodies of the EU and its constituent states - representative of how many million people? - have agreed is so shabby and dishonest that it should not be allowed.

I still do not understand your legal issues here.

IMHO it's pretty simple:

Erland's plugins are released under GPL license.
You can get the source for *all* plugins and *all* versions on his google code page.

If you were using his plugins before he introduced the License check, you can still use these versions for free. They do not include any License check and will work without the need to pay Erland a single dollar.

Only if you use the newer versions of his plugins (i.e. the versions AFTER he implemented the License check) will not work without a license.

If your SBS is set to "Install plugin updates automatically", this may of course cause the plugin to be updated even if you do not want it.

In this case, you can downgrade the plugin version by download an older version from Erland's page.

Nothing is taken away from you. You can still use the old versions for free.

PS: I hope that enough people will support Erland and buy a license.
I once was the main dev of an open-source application with a user base of around 400k users and the development was pretty time-consuming.
I asked for some donations and of the 400k people, I think 5-10 people have donated.
So, IMHO, donations are a great idea, but it does not really work, because there are not enough people ready to donate.
(I donated to Erland before and also bought a license now, but most people probably did not.)

Phil Leigh
2011-10-20, 06:39
http://echr.coe.int/NR/rdonlyres/97564258-437D-4FFD-A54D-2766DE255CCA/0/DG2ENHRHAND102007.pdf

http://www.ilaw.com.au/public/licencearticle.html , in particular:

Estoppel
There may be scope to argue that a licensor is precluded from changing the licence conditions on software if he or she misled the licensee into relying on the continuance of the existing terms in the knowledge that the licensee would be detrimentally affected by that reliance if the terms were changed.

The argument would be based on a legal doctrine called estoppel, which can prohibit you from exercising your legal rights - in this case, the right to change the licence conditions - if you have allowed someone else to rely on the fact that you wouldn't exercise those rights. In light of the rhetoric that is often bandied about to the effect of "Once GPL, always GPL", circumstances could well exist in which this argument would be quite persuasive.

The question is, can estoppel restrict a licensor from changing their licence conditions to the user community as a whole, or only one particular licensee? Probably only the latter, since it is generally impossible to demonstrate reliance, which is one of the elements of estoppel, except on a case-by-case basis. 59 This reduces the usefulness of the estoppel argument to combat the withdrawal of open source licensing of a package that is in widespread use. At best, one open source licensee's victory will cause the licensor to reconsider enforcing the new license terms against other former licensees.

Another limitation of the estoppel argument is that a court would not necessarily compensate a licensee who had been misled into relying on the continuity of an open source licence by requiring the licensor to reinstate that license; it would be equally open for the court simply to order the licensor to pay damages. Those damages might be negligible unless the licensee has significant business interests riding on the use of the package.


...

Just to be clear, I have no issue with Erland choosing to charge people for his work going forward - that is his inalienable right. However, nobody SHOULD provide anything - under licence or under contract - for free or for a price - and then disable it or disable it until a fee is paid... UNLESS it was spelled out at the time of supply (i.e. as a Licence/contract term) that this could or would happen.

I'm not saying anyone should or even could sue anyone - that's just silly. I was talking about the general case of unilateral retrospective modification of contract or license terms which is normally something only Governments can do with impunity... !!

pippin
2011-10-20, 06:45
Erland did not change the license conditions. He just charges for the use.
You _can_ still use the plugins without the license manager if you remove it you just have to do that.

cunobelinus
2011-10-20, 06:52
+1. Perfect summary.


On 20 Oct 2011, at 14:39, Phil Leigh wrote:
>
>
> Just to be clear, I have no issue with Erland choosing to charge people
> for his work going forward - that is his inalienable right. However,
> nobody SHOULD provide anything - under licence or under contract - for
> free or for a price - and then disable it or disable it until a fee is
> paid... UNLESS it was spelled out at the time of supply (i.e. as a
> Licence/contract term) that this could or would happen.
>
> I'm not saying anyone should or even could sue anyone - that's just
> silly. I was talking about the general case of retrospective
> modification of contract or license terms which is normally something
> only Governments can do with impunity... !!
>

reniera
2011-10-20, 07:00
+1. Perfect summary.


On 20 Oct 2011, at 14:39, Phil Leigh wrote:
>
>
> Just to be clear, I have no issue with Erland choosing to charge people
> for his work going forward - that is his inalienable right. However,
> nobody SHOULD provide anything - under licence or under contract - for
> free or for a price - and then disable it or disable it until a fee is
> paid... UNLESS it was spelled out at the time of supply (i.e. as a
> Licence/contract term) that this could or would happen.
>
> I'm not saying anyone should or even could sue anyone - that's just
> silly. I was talking about the general case of retrospective
> modification of contract or license terms which is normally something
> only Governments can do with impunity... !!
>

Exactly, +1

A resolution to this would be Logitech take a couple of hours to integrate a copy of trackstat in the original product.

socistep
2011-10-20, 07:27
+1. Perfect summary.


On 20 Oct 2011, at 14:39, Phil Leigh wrote:
>
>
> Just to be clear, I have no issue with Erland choosing to charge people
> for his work going forward - that is his inalienable right. However,
> nobody SHOULD provide anything - under licence or under contract - for
> free or for a price - and then disable it or disable it until a fee is
> paid... UNLESS it was spelled out at the time of supply (i.e. as a
> Licence/contract term) that this could or would happen.
>
> I'm not saying anyone should or even could sue anyone - that's just
> silly. I was talking about the general case of retrospective
> modification of contract or license terms which is normally something
> only Governments can do with impunity... !!
>

ok so legally there is a potential conflict, what are you going to do next? Your options look like

1) Legally take it further
2) Write your own version of the plugins which is legally correct and keep them free & fully in your control
3) use previous versions of plugins which are still free
4) Swallow the conflict and pay for the plugins

Despite the legal issue I'm still sticking with 4)

Phil Leigh
2011-10-20, 07:54
ok so legally there is a potential conflict, what are you going to do next? Your options look like

1) Legally take it further
2) Write your own version of the plugins which is legally correct and keep them free & fully in your control
3) use previous versions of plugins which are still free
4) Swallow the conflict and pay for the plugins

Despite the legal issue I'm still sticking with 4)

3 and 4 are the only options that make sense. IF I used and wanted to carry on using Trackstat (which I don't) I'd go for 4.

aubuti
2011-10-20, 08:07
ok so legally there is a potential conflict, what are you going to do next? Your options look like

1) Legally take it further
2) Write your own version of the plugins which is legally correct and keep them free & fully in your control
3) use previous versions of plugins which are still free
4) Swallow the conflict and pay for the plugins
or
5) stop using the plugins

(after all, if they're not worth 20 euros or whatever to you then at the end of the day they really can't be all that important. You can be unhappy about the process of moving to commercial, but it's too late to change that.)

m1abrams
2011-10-20, 11:09
Here is another concern I have when a dev starts charging for something that they previously gave away for free. They realize their time is worth something which it is and I am not saying it is not. But then they charge a price that will force users like me to say no thanks and not buy. Well the market for these plugins is very very small and if the dev is not satisfied with the amount he collects because not enough sales many times the dev just say screw it and stops all together leaving people who paid for it SOL.

Not saying this will happen with erland he has been doing this for a long time. Just saying I have seen this pattern in the past and it never seems to go well. If the price was lower I would bite on it but as it stands I will have to pass. That is my statement here is not that he should not charge but that he might do better with a lower price point.

mmca22gr
2011-10-20, 14:34
An interesting discussion. I am sitting here reading while listening to some music (using DynamicPlaylists) and drinking red wine.
I like the legal stuff, great fun.
I paid the money - not because I use the plugins, but I recognised the efforts that Erland puts into this forum (he has 8,700+ posts, I have 51 - and I joined before him) and the open source software. I thought a few quid for him to buy a beer while I sup red wine is not much to ask.

There is also option 6. Dry your eyes! There are worse thieves out there overcharging for crap products and service.

BTW, running Dynamic Playlists - most played songs and it just threw up a Radiohead song that I have never heard before!! I also see a robbie williams song in the Q. Jesus wept, what has the world come to.

Erland, you're fired! Give me back my beer money!

erland
2011-10-20, 17:09
Sorry, didn't spot this thread until now, guess it's time for some official answer. I'm not going to start a long discussion about it, I'm just going to post some comments, even though most of them have already been answered by other people earlier in the thread.

1.
Setting and viewing ratings for a single song through TrackStat is still free, can't promise it will be free forever but currently it is, it's just browsing the ratings and importing them from from iTunes, MusicIP and similar systems that costs money. Of course, it's pretty useless to set/view ratings unless you can browse them and use them in smart playlists, but I just wanted to say that some functionality in TrackStat still is available for free.

2.
The old versions of the plugin which doesn't require licensing is still available for manual download from my download site. I can't promise they will be there forever but they are available at the moment.

3.
Anyone is free to modify the source code, it's still open source (GPL) and you are free to modify it, redistribute it and even charge for it if you like to.

4.
Nobody would be happier than me if someone, Logitech or third party, volunteered to maintain, support and offer my plugins for free or even for a more competitive fee than I'm offering. The following enhancement request is one of the most wanted and Logitech have obviously completely ignored it during all the time I've been around, I guess they don't feel it's important:
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=142
Anyone that things ratings should be part of the core system should at least vote on this enhancement request to indicate to Logitech that it's important.
I've asked for help to maintain the plugins, I've even offered Logitech to spend my spare time to adjust them to be incorporated in the core product, for free, but there have never been any interest for this from Logitech's side. Just to show what I'm talking about, here are some really old threads from the past:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24309
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28543
As you can see, there really wasn't much interest from Logitech representatives, even back in 2006 when their management really cared for the products.

5.
The price for a one year license to TrackStat is $5. At least in Sweden $5 is about the same as ONE burger meal on my favorite fast food restaurant and personally I consider TrackStat usage for one year to be worth more than one extra burger meal per year, but that's just me. To anyone that still continue to think $5 is too much, consider what you would have earned during one extra hour on your day work instead of spending the time arguing in this thread, I bet most people would have earned more than the price of a one year license to TrackStat.

6.
I'm really not doing this for money, it's just that it's really hard to justify spending 5-10 hours per week 5-6 years in a row, continuously 365 days per year, without getting some kind of compensation for the time. It was easier earlier when you got invited to Logitech hardware betas and Logitech showed some appreciation to the third party developers that spent time enhancing their system and making Logitech earn more money on it, but this isn't the case anymore, at least not for me. Logitech has very clearly showed during the last years that supporting third party development on the Squeezebox platform isn't a priority, I know Michael and Andy still care for us and I appreciate all their efforts a lot, but they don't have the power to do much and their managers don't have a clue what third party developers have done and can do for the Squeezebox hardware in the past and in the future.

7.
The alternative for me would have been to drop support and maintenance of the plugins completely. If anyone would prefer that, just let me know, I'm happy to consider it if it's the general opinion. The main (and only) reason I selected to use the current approach was that I was running out of spare time and it started to feel like work instead of spare time, with the current approach I'm able to work a few hours less on my day job and instead get some spare time which I can use to develop new features in existing plugins and develop completely new revolutionary plugins related to Squeezebox usage.


I'm really sorry if this all makes some people upset, but really, I'm not stopping anyone from taking over my work, you even get the current source code for free as a base, just take over the maintenance, spend a few hours per week continuously to support/maintain it and give it away for free or for a charge to other users if you feel that's something you like to do. I'll not try to stop anyone that really wants to do this, I would really encourage and even help anyone that is interested to do this, because my vision is that I could spend the main part of my spare time to focus on the future, which I believe is the SMD project.

Finally, most importantly, I would like to send a lot of appreciation to anyone that have showed the appreciation for my work either in this thread or in other places or by donating or purchasing licenses, I wouldn't be here if it weren't for all your nice words and encouragement in the past.

Now, let's focus the time on making the Squeezebox continue being the best music listening system also in the future.

erland
2011-10-20, 17:31
Here is another concern I have when a dev starts charging for something that they previously gave away for free. They realize their time is worth something which it is and I am not saying it is not. But then they charge a price that will force users like me to say no thanks and not buy. Well the market for these plugins is very very small and if the dev is not satisfied with the amount he collects because not enough sales many times the dev just say screw it and stops all together leaving people who paid for it SOL.

Not saying this will happen with erland he has been doing this for a long time. Just saying I have seen this pattern in the past and it never seems to go well. If the price was lower I would bite on it but as it stands I will have to pass. That is my statement here is not that he should not charge but that he might do better with a lower price point.

Unfortunately, each and every purchase requires some work on my side to manage the payments, licenses and bookkeeping, so lowering the price won't work because it will result in me getting less time to do actual development and the goal with all this is to make it possible to spend more time on development. If the price will be changed in the future my current feeling is that there is a bigger chance it will be increased than decreased.

A one year license to TrackStat is $5, about the same as a burger meal, does everyone also have this hard time to decide if they should get a burger meal or not when seeing a fast food restaurant ?
You can enjoy TrackStat for a year for $5, how long will you remember and enjoy that burger meal ?

However, I'm not going to trick anyone into buying, so if you don't feel it's worth the money, just use the standard functionality provided by Logitech, for free.

Mnyb
2011-10-20, 18:30
Erland you could add some info on your site/wiki on how to install and keep the old plugins( not updating ) I have a feeling that many simply don't know how and you will be answering this a lot .
We are all spioled with to the new way off adding plugins via the web- page manually installing may be a forgotten thing.

Personally I'll be running your never versions ( when they suport 7.7.)

m1abrams
2011-10-20, 18:52
Erland sorry Logitech has not supported devs such as yourself and it makes me question the future of the squeezebox products. Your post actually makes me even less likely though to put more money into this product.

dasmueller
2011-10-20, 20:58
I am relatively new to this community-about 1 yr. I read the forums daily and in many cases they have been of great help to me. I also do not use the plugins I see people talking about.That being said, an observation-most of the posts I see especially over the last several months are due to issues with SBS or these plugins. Yes it would be nice if everything went smoothly, I would love it. If someone outside Logitech is willing to spend their time and energy to make things nicer for others they should be applauded. If they were doing it in their spare time just for the love of doing it fine. Erland is not doing what he does with the plugins he works on to earn a living. He is doing it because he enjoys the concept of wifi music and wants to enhance what someone else sells to make it better. He could do it just for himself, but shares with the rest of the community. I do not feel it wrong to sk for some small compensation for all the effort he puts in. Of course if we do not want to pay we can do it ourselves right ?

Sorry for thr rant, but I just get tired of looking at the post of- I do not want to pay for---

Thanks for what you do Erland !

Meridion
2011-10-20, 22:31
A resolution to this would be Logitech take a couple of hours to integrate a copy of trackstat in the original product.

The trackstat functionality should definitely be part of LMS! I think this would differentiate it from the competition. So please vote for http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=142 .

The competition (iTunes, Monkey, etc.) all have an 'intelligent' playlist feature, which SBS or LMS don't have. So this functionality should be supplied by Logitech, too...

$40 for these two feature is pricey but I decided to support erland with some cash for his valuable work.

callesoroe
2011-10-21, 02:26
Sorry, didn't spot this thread until now, guess it's time for some official answer. I'm not going to start a long discussion about it, I'm just going to post some comments, even though most of them have already been answered by other people earlier in the thread.

1.
Setting and viewing ratings for a single song through TrackStat is still free, can't promise it will be free forever but currently it is, it's just browsing the ratings and importing them from from iTunes, MusicIP and similar systems that costs money. Of course, it's pretty useless to set/view ratings unless you can browse them and use them in smart playlists, but I just wanted to say that some functionality in TrackStat still is available for free.

2.
The old versions of the plugin which doesn't require licensing is still available for manual download from my download site. I can't promise they will be there forever but they are available at the moment.

3.
Anyone is free to modify the source code, it's still open source (GPL) and you are free to modify it, redistribute it and even charge for it if you like to.

4.
Nobody would be happier than me if someone, Logitech or third party, volunteered to maintain, support and offer my plugins for free or even for a more competitive fee than I'm offering. The following enhancement request is one of the most wanted and Logitech have obviously completely ignored it during all the time I've been around, I guess they don't feel it's important:
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=142
Anyone that things ratings should be part of the core system should at least vote on this enhancement request to indicate to Logitech that it's important.
I've asked for help to maintain the plugins, I've even offered Logitech to spend my spare time to adjust them to be incorporated in the core product, for free, but there have never been any interest for this from Logitech's side. Just to show what I'm talking about, here are some really old threads from the past:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=24309
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=28543
As you can see, there really wasn't much interest from Logitech representatives, even back in 2006 when their management really cared for the products.

5.
The price for a one year license to TrackStat is $5. At least in Sweden $5 is about the same as ONE burger meal on my favorite fast food restaurant and personally I consider TrackStat usage for one year to be worth more than one extra burger meal per year, but that's just me. To anyone that still continue to think $5 is too much, consider what you would have earned during one extra hour on your day work instead of spending the time arguing in this thread, I bet most people would have earned more than the price of a one year license to TrackStat.

6.
I'm really not doing this for money, it's just that it's really hard to justify spending 5-10 hours per week 5-6 years in a row, continuously 365 days per year, without getting some kind of compensation for the time. It was easier earlier when you got invited to Logitech hardware betas and Logitech showed some appreciation to the third party developers that spent time enhancing their system and making Logitech earn more money on it, but this isn't the case anymore, at least not for me. Logitech has very clearly showed during the last years that supporting third party development on the Squeezebox platform isn't a priority, I know Michael and Andy still care for us and I appreciate all their efforts a lot, but they don't have the power to do much and their managers don't have a clue what third party developers have done and can do for the Squeezebox hardware in the past and in the future.

7.
The alternative for me would have been to drop support and maintenance of the plugins completely. If anyone would prefer that, just let me know, I'm happy to consider it if it's the general opinion. The main (and only) reason I selected to use the current approach was that I was running out of spare time and it started to feel like work instead of spare time, with the current approach I'm able to work a few hours less on my day job and instead get some spare time which I can use to develop new features in existing plugins and develop completely new revolutionary plugins related to Squeezebox usage.


I'm really sorry if this all makes some people upset, but really, I'm not stopping anyone from taking over my work, you even get the current source code for free as a base, just take over the maintenance, spend a few hours per week continuously to support/maintain it and give it away for free or for a charge to other users if you feel that's something you like to do. I'll not try to stop anyone that really wants to do this, I would really encourage and even help anyone that is interested to do this, because my vision is that I could spend the main part of my spare time to focus on the future, which I believe is the SMD project.

Finally, most importantly, I would like to send a lot of appreciation to anyone that have showed the appreciation for my work either in this thread or in other places or by donating or purchasing licenses, I wouldn't be here if it weren't for all your nice words and encouragement in the past.

Now, let's focus the time on making the Squeezebox continue being the best music listening system also in the future.

I put my full support to you, Erland. I did not have my first Squeezebox a very long time, before I saw the great benefits Erlands plugins could add to the product. It was obvious to me to send a donation. Music is my main hobby, and hobbies dooes cost money. These plugins really makes the Squeezebox product much much better. And as Logitech sadly enough do not see the value of this, then we users must do it.

Again. Thumps up for your work Erland! Hope you will keep on in the future.

reniera
2011-10-21, 05:42
These plugins really makes the Squeezebox product much much better. And as Logitech sadly enough do not see the value of this, then we users must do it.

I also appreciate what Erland does (and I don't dispute the fact that he can ask money for FUTURE versions - I think everyone says the same thing here) but I can't agree that Trackstat makes the squeezebox product so much much better. In the end, Trackstat is a poorly integrated patch on a product that should have had that feature from the early beginning. Rating is not even integrated in the WebUI. You have to use iPeng in order to easily rate tracks. When Musicbrainz changed their database structure a couple of months ago, I lost all my ratings. Not that long ago, rescan would freeeze because of trackstat. 7.7 also has issues with database concurrent access of trackstat.

It's definitely an (appreciated) add-on that Logitech couldn't care less about and it creates a lot of technical problems at every version upgrade (= reason why Erland has so much trouble maintainning his plugins). Months ago, I said that Logitech should take erland on their payroll (i.e. to recognise the support he gave during the 7.6 migration).

Is it because Logitech doesn't care about improving their product that I should pay a 3rd party to improve it ? I don't think so.

Because rating/stats are not native, Erland created trackstat. Because of the need to maintain it, Erland invented licence manager. Next steps is that we have to pay for license manager ? Or perhaps, the access to this forum will become billable ? (after all, you spend a lot of time supporting others here) ?

castalla
2011-10-21, 06:00
A bit off topic - but it all seems a bit of a storm in a teacup. What real world use is a track rating system anyway - it's sort of like OCD trainspotting in my book. If I rate a track as rubbish, borderline, uninteresting, then I just dump it. I also recognise what are '5 star' albums, tracks, etc. without the need for a statistic. I suppose if you have 1000s of tracks then you might need some rating system - but then how often are you going to actually listen to 1 or 2 star tracks anyway?

Seems a rather esoteric feature to be part of the core system. I'd rather Logitech spent their time and resources developing a usable equaliser plugin.

Just my 2 eurocents worth.

reniera
2011-10-21, 06:18
A bit off topic - but it all seems a bit of a storm in a teacup. What real world use is a track rating system anyway - it's sort of like OCD trainspotting in my book. If I rate a track as rubbish, borderline, uninteresting, then I just dump it. I also recognise what are '5 star' albums, tracks, etc. without the need for a statistic. I suppose if you have 1000s of tracks then you might need some rating system - but then how often are you going to actually listen to 1 or 2 star tracks anyway?

Seems a rather esoteric feature to be part of the core system. I'd rather Logitech spent their time and resources developing a usable equaliser plugin.

Just my 2 eurocents worth.

Sometime, I like to let it play the tracks I like (and only those). Sometime, I want to let a friend discover what i listen the most. Sorry, I have no memory for track/album names, it's just a convenient way for me to find what I like.
Also, I use rating 1/5 to tag tracks I don't like at all and time to time, I physically move the files away (I don't like to delete).

socistep
2011-10-21, 07:24
A bit off topic - but it all seems a bit of a storm in a teacup. What real world use is a track rating system anyway - it's sort of like OCD trainspotting in my book. If I rate a track as rubbish, borderline, uninteresting, then I just dump it. I also recognise what are '5 star' albums, tracks, etc. without the need for a statistic. I suppose if you have 1000s of tracks then you might need some rating system - but then how often are you going to actually listen to 1 or 2 star tracks anyway?

Seems a rather esoteric feature to be part of the core system. I'd rather Logitech spent their time and resources developing a usable equaliser plugin.

Just my 2 eurocents worth.

We use trackstat quite heavily to rate the tracks we like, from that I pull out various dynamic playlists e.g. Top Rated 80s, 00s, indie, pop etc - these general use playlists are used heavily.

I have about 20k tracks and approx 2k 'top rated' ones spanning various genres/decades.

I also used playlist generator to generate a 'Top Rated'.m3u playlist, then did a quick script to replace .flac with .mp3 and this is loaded into Banshee for my ipod - however since I've moved to using spotify in the car then this isn't used as much

There are 3 of Erlands plugins used there

Meridion
2011-10-21, 08:03
A bit off topic - but it all seems a bit of a storm in a teacup. What real world use is a track rating system anyway - it's sort of like OCD trainspotting in my book.

I use trackstat a lot. My database has lots of yet unrated music, ripped from my rather large CD collection, in it and I appreciate listening to non-rated music (to discover forgotten tracks and music), play my favourite music with 2+ stars or best-ever tracks with 4+ stars.

Actually trackstat is one of the main reasons I'm sticking to Logitech's Squeeze "universe".

Many thanks, Erland!

mmca22gr
2011-10-21, 16:03
I thought that Erland put in all those hours over the last 5 years in the vain hope to get some beer money - when in fact it was burger money! shame on you Erland!!

castalla
2011-10-21, 16:09
Obviously, I'm missing something!

GeeJay
2011-10-24, 15:34
Erland has already provided the history lesson, but I just wanted to remark on how funny ("sad" funny, not "ha ha" funny) this thread is in the context of all the commentary he has offered over the years as to how he wished for a) Logitech to integrate his plug-ins into the core product, or b) developer help in supporting his plug-ins. Really, the anger is misplaced to the extent it's directed at him. Blame Logitech.

And while you are at it, blame Logitech's competition, too. They don't allow 3rd party developers to create the kind of add-ons many of us have been able to enjoy with Squeezebox and which aren't available elsewhere.

Phil Leigh
2011-10-26, 00:27
A bit off topic - but it all seems a bit of a storm in a teacup. What real world use is a track rating system anyway - it's sort of like OCD trainspotting in my book. If I rate a track as rubbish, borderline, uninteresting, then I just dump it. I also recognise what are '5 star' albums, tracks, etc. without the need for a statistic. I suppose if you have 1000s of tracks then you might need some rating system - but then how often are you going to actually listen to 1 or 2 star tracks anyway?

Seems a rather esoteric feature to be part of the core system. I'd rather Logitech spent their time and resources developing a usable equaliser plugin.

Just my 2 eurocents worth.

+1
Life is too short to rate tracks... And rating tracks is actually the antithesis of music discovery, especially if you are going to use ratings to seed random playlists.

briank
2011-10-26, 09:53
+1
Life is too short to rate tracks... And rating tracks is actually the antithesis of music discovery, especially if you are going to use ratings to seed random playlists.

-1

I disagree. Erland's excellent plugins provide the tools to create the (IMHO) close-to-ultimate smart music selection system (short of actually determining your taste by reading your mind or using the "if you liked X then you'll probably like Y because other people who liked X like Y" Spotify-type shared rating model).

I have written a simple SQL playlist (using his plugins) that randomly plays songs but unrated songs are played most frequently, 5 star songs next most frequently, 4 star next, etc. 1 star songs are never played. For me, this is the perfect system:

- no decision to make when you want to listen to music
- new (i.e. unrated) and more favoured songs are played more frequently
- you can always "rediscover" any songs (except those banished to 1 star oblivion) and re-rate them if you want

This is why I have donated for Erland's plugins in the past but, I have to admit, probably not enough considering I that almost all my listening is via this playlist :(

reniera
2011-10-27, 00:51
-1

I disagree. Erland's excellent plugins provide the tools to create the (IMHO) close-to-ultimate smart music selection system (short of actually determining your taste by reading your mind or using the "if you liked X then you'll probably like Y because other people who liked X like Y" Spotify-type shared rating model).

I have written a simple SQL playlist (using his plugins) that randomly plays songs but unrated songs are played most frequently, 5 star songs next most frequently, 4 star next, etc. 1 star songs are never played. For me, this is the perfect system:

- no decision to make when you want to listen to music
- new (i.e. unrated) and more favoured songs are played more frequently
- you can always "rediscover" any songs (except those banished to 1 star oblivion) and re-rate them if you want

This is why I have donated for Erland's plugins in the past but, I have to admit, probably not enough considering I that almost all my listening is via this playlist :(

Briank,

Did you try the excellent sugarcube plugin ? In the past, I used it together with trackstat to block unwanted (rated 1) tracks but I realize that removing trackstat doesn't change anything. Very few rated 1 goes thru anyhow. Sugarcube realy adds values and great value for money.

I think it will provide you with "if you liked X then you'll probably like Y".

briank
2011-10-27, 02:36
Briank,

Did you try the excellent sugarcube plugin ? In the past, I used it together with trackstat to block unwanted (rated 1) tracks but I realize that removing trackstat doesn't change anything. Very few rated 1 goes thru anyhow. Sugarcube realy adds values and great value for money.

I think it will provide you with "if you liked X then you'll probably like Y".

Reniera,

No, I hadn't noticed the sugarcube plugin. Just looking through it now - there's a lot to take in but it seems quite powerful. To be honest, what seems to be its main function (next track chosen will be similar to current track) is specifically what I don't want. The "if you liked X then you'll probably like Y" I mentioned above was more about using other people's ratings (assuming they're accessible) to decide rather than using musicIP to choose Y because its similar to X. I prefer contrast and want it to choose based only on myRating/playcount/lastPlayedTime but I do see this sugarcube feature: "Utilises TrackStat to enable greater control of the music selection. Block tracks under a certain rating level. Prefer tracks with a Low or High Playcount or Recently/Least Played and High or Low Ratings. Ensure you dont always hear the same tracks" (and some other related features) that sound like exactly what I want.

Thanks for the tip - I'll definitely be installing this and giving it a go.

(Sorry if this has gone off-topic for the thread)

mps
2011-10-27, 07:05
-1

I disagree. Erland's excellent plugins provide the tools to create the (IMHO) close-to-ultimate smart music selection system (short of actually determining your taste by reading your mind or using the "if you liked X then you'll probably like Y because other people who liked X like Y" Spotify-type shared rating model).

I have written a simple SQL playlist (using his plugins) that randomly plays songs but unrated songs are played most frequently, 5 star songs next most frequently, 4 star next, etc. 1 star songs are never played. For me, this is the perfect system:

- no decision to make when you want to listen to music
- new (i.e. unrated) and more favoured songs are played more frequently
- you can always "rediscover" any songs (except those banished to 1 star oblivion) and re-rate them if you want

This is why I have donated for Erland's plugins in the past but, I have to admit, probably not enough considering I that almost all my listening is via this playlist :(
That sounds great! Would you be willing to post/pm the code for the playlist?

Thanks,

Mike

PS. Let me add that I am an enthusiastic user of CustomBrowse, CustomScan, Trackstat, SQLPlaylist, SongLyrics, and other Erland plugins, not to mention ipeng. It is this customization that makes the Squeezebox the best platform in my opinion. I've purchased the perpetual all-plugin license and donated in the past and have totally gotten my money's worth. Just know you're well appreciated by your users Erland, and I'm glad to pay the prices you have set out.

artintampa
2011-10-27, 08:56
To me it's simple. Everyone deserves to get paid for their craft. Be it art, technology, or ability to create. It's called capitalism. I paid for Mr Erland's products and I strongly feel it has enhanced my system. If one does not wish to contribute to someone's time and effort, then dont complain and do without. I personally appreciate people that are contributing to this product or any other I may have purchased in a way that I am unable to due to lack of knowledge of the subject and lack of time. As for me a big THANK YOU to you guys!


Today trackstat deactivated itself. After some research, i found out i'd have to install a license manager plugin and pay 20euros to reactivate it.

Way too expensive considering that the radio costed me 105 euros on amazon.

5 euros, i would have been unhappy but i would have paid. 20euros, i just deinstalled all these plugins. At least i improve the reliability.

I understand that developpers wants to be paid but i don't like that a free product becomes commercial overnight. I could understand that a new version of the plugin (with new features) becomes billable, but disabling a plugin that i was presented as free in the past makes me feel like taken in hostage.

Also, trackstat is poorly integrated, i believe and is not worst that price. As a comparaison, Ipeng is really cool and costs (only) 8euros and there is a free alternative from logitech.

Come on! Rating, play count should have been part of the core product from the beginning. How hard is it for logitech dev. to code this in the native database ? I mean, it's a piece a work, but quite nothing in comparaison of the whole product as it exists today. If only they weren't so busy with lms ...

Phil Leigh
2011-10-27, 09:25
-1

I disagree. Erland's excellent plugins provide the tools to create the (IMHO) close-to-ultimate smart music selection system (short of actually determining your taste by reading your mind or using the "if you liked X then you'll probably like Y because other people who liked X like Y" Spotify-type shared rating model).

I have written a simple SQL playlist (using his plugins) that randomly plays songs but unrated songs are played most frequently, 5 star songs next most frequently, 4 star next, etc. 1 star songs are never played. For me, this is the perfect system:

- no decision to make when you want to listen to music
- new (i.e. unrated) and more favoured songs are played more frequently
- you can always "rediscover" any songs (except those banished to 1 star oblivion) and re-rate them if you want

This is why I have donated for Erland's plugins in the past but, I have to admit, probably not enough considering I that almost all my listening is via this playlist :(

Or you could simply enjoy MIP or random mixes of your entire collection having deleted/archived any "1 or 2 star" stuff...

I bet once you have rated something 1 or 2 you never listen to it again - so it might as well be removed from the collection. So the 1-5 scheme basically resolves into good or not good - and you might as well just jettison the "not good" stuff. That's what I do.
YMMV.

GeeJay
2011-10-27, 17:52
Or you could simply enjoy MIP or random mixes of your entire collection having deleted/archived any "1 or 2 star" stuff...

I bet once you have rated something 1 or 2 you never listen to it again - so it might as well be removed from the collection. So the 1-5 scheme basically resolves into good or not good - and you might as well just jettison the "not good" stuff. That's what I do.
YMMV.

Sometimes another member of my household wants to listen to a track in my collection that I may not like. I want them to have that option. Plus, my standard random playlist will play 5-star tracks 100% of the time, 4-star tracks 75% of the time, and 3-star tracks 50% of the time, so it's more than just a thumbs-up, thumbs-down decision.

briank
2011-10-28, 08:25
That sounds great! Would you be willing to post/pm the code for the playlist?



Mike,

No problem. Actually the SQL Playlist plugin used to have a feature which allowed users to publish their own customized playlist scripts so that they can be accessed by everyone (see http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/SQL_Playlist_plugin#Downloading_and_sharing_playli sts). I say "used to have" because I can't seem to find the "Publish" link in SQLPlaylist anymore - either its been removed or I just can't find it right now. I did find it before because I did publish my script years ago. There wasn't much uptake of this feature - only about 3 or 4 users published their scripts. Anyway, the version I published back then is out of date & since I can't seem to publish it via SQLPlaylist anymore, I'll PM you my latest version instead.

Brian.

briank
2011-10-28, 09:10
my standard random playlist will play 5-star tracks 100% of the time, 4-star tracks 75% of the time, and 3-star tracks 50% of the time, so it's more than just a thumbs-up, thumbs-down decision.

+1 (although I think you mean 100/75/50 as weightings as opposed to "% of the time")

Obviously its horses for courses: I prefer the rating-weighted course rather than the MIP seeding course.

It seems several people have rating-weighted scripts - its a pity there's not a shared/standard/built-in one. I think Erland's standard ones come close but not close enough. Sugarcube plugin may be the best course for this horse but sql playlist scripts seem the simplest & easiest to maintain.

erland
2011-10-28, 09:19
It seems several people have rating-weighted scripts - its a pity there's not a shared/standard/built-in one. I think Erland's standard ones come close but not close enough. Sugarcube plugin may be the best course for this horse but sql playlist scripts seem the simplest & easiest to maintain.

The "Random rated songs" template is included with SQL Playlist, it will give you the choice to specify percentage of tracks rated less than 3 stars that should be included. Specifying 20% will give you 80% (3-5 stars) and 20% (1-2 stars)

I wonder if it would make sense to even include a playlist based on this template by default ?

briank
2011-10-28, 12:18
The "Random rated songs" template is included with SQL Playlist, it will give you the choice to specify percentage of tracks rated less than 3 stars that should be included. Specifying 20% will give you 80% (3-5 stars) and 20% (1-2 stars)

I wonder if it would make sense to even include a playlist based on this template by default ?

Yes, the "Random rated songs" template is the one I was thinking of when I said there was one I thought was close but not close enough, As you say, it only differentiates between 1-2 stars and 3-5 stars - I'd prefer more control, i.e., differentiate between no stars and 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5. Why have all these levels of rating if you don't use them? You could just have less levels but I think 5 is perfect: none=haven't rated yet, 1=hate it don't play, 2=not great, 3=good, 4=very good, 5=bona fide classic.

You can probably guess that I'd vote for providing a playlist based on this template with the above extensions by default.

MeSue
2011-10-28, 12:25
I bet once you have rated something 1 or 2 you never listen to it again - so it might as well be removed from the collection. So the 1-5 scheme basically resolves into good or not good - and you might as well just jettison the "not good" stuff. That's what I do.

In my rating system, "2" tracks are tracks that are appropriate in the context of an album, but not in a mix. Often these are short intros/outros/segues, or very long tracks that don't work well in a mix but I still want to hear them as part of an album.

My "1" tracks are those I want in my collection but don't want in mixes. For instance, live tracks/albums or remixes. I generally don't like live or alternate versions in mixes, but I still want those songs as part of my collection.

Unrated tracks are for music my husband likes but I don't.

3-5 is for music I want in mixes, with 4 & 5 being favorites. Mixes can then be weighted by how much I like the song. I also use the 4-5 ratings to auto-fill my iPods for the road. These ratings often change as I get tired of older stuff and so on.

Thanks for continuing to support your plug-ins, Erland! The fee is nothing compared to how much they enhance the music experience for me.

reniera
2011-10-30, 01:09
How can I remove the trackstat menu on radio and touch ?

Even if I deinstall the plugin, the entry in the menu's still there. If I select the menu entry, it loops for ever.

erland
2011-10-30, 01:21
How can I remove the trackstat menu on radio and touch ?

Even if I deinstall the plugin, the entry in the menu's still there. If I select the menu entry, it loops for ever.

Try restarting Radio/Touch, I've sometimes seen issues like this where menus aren't updated until they have been restarted.

reniera
2011-10-30, 02:26
Try restarting Radio/Touch, I've sometimes seen issues like this where menus aren't updated until they have been restarted.

OK it works. Thanks Erland

Bogg
2011-10-30, 05:49
Can I ask a quick Trackstat question -
When using trackstat on squeezecommander is there anyway to see more results than just 20 ? I've changed the settings for web interface and player, but neither have affected squeezecommander. I do get the desired results with the web interface.

erland
2011-10-30, 07:00
Can I ask a quick Trackstat question -
When using trackstat on squeezecommander is there anyway to see more results than just 20 ? I've changed the settings for web interface and player, but neither have affected squeezecommander. I do get the desired results with the web interface.

It's a limitation, I plan to make it configurable in a future TrackStat version.
If it's urgent, a workaround is available here but it requires you to manually edit the prefs file:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=652282#post652282

Bogg
2011-10-30, 08:03
It's a limitation, I plan to make it configurable in a future TrackStat version.
If it's urgent, a workaround is available here but it requires you to manually edit the prefs file:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=652282#post652282

That worked brilliantly. Thanks. I'll probably buy it at the end of the trial now :-)