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View Full Version : BIG ANGRY BEEF, buggy upgrade install process, SBS/SBR



MrSinatra
2011-02-19, 20:48
ok, this keeps happening over and over for no good reason, and i am angry that it does.

i have a SBR at my dads house, and he has ipeng, (there is no SBC, just a SBR)

any [every?] time i upgrade SBS at his house, the sbs install FORGETS the SBR, and can't find it! VERY FRIGGIN ANNOYING! ...and at that point i am screwed, b/c i don't have a SBC here to get it reconnected. (ie. pretend its like a new install)

(i know i know, all you helpful smartguys out there will tell me "the solution is simple, don't upgrade" ...well stow that, b/c that is not the proper way for SBS/logitech to address this for the future, and its too late for me now. i should not need a SBC everytime i want to upgrade an existing, installed and working installation of SBS w/SBR, and b/c i am not a machine, i sometimes forget that this is an issue here)

when this first (or second) happened to me a while back, i figured out on my own that i could use SP to get the SBR "re-installed" to SBS. i told logitech this, thinking they could tell other people that, who were having the same issue. how altruistically stupid of me. in response, logitech has since removed that ability from SP, which i assume they did deliberately, leaving me no decent workaround.

i have SBS 7.5.4 and SP 7.5.3 both from todays nightly links. the SBR now blinks red, and i might add that SP is unbelieveably buggy and that SBS itself didn't work at first; i had a 7.5.3b and then installed 7.5.4b on top of it. could no longer get to my music. had to uninstall from control panel and that took a LONG time, and then reinstall 7.5.4b and only then was SBS back to normal.

so now i am screwing around with net-udap which is extremely difficult, all b/c logitech/SBS seemingly purposely redacted the computer based SP ability to setup a SBR, but more importantly, b/c the SBS upgrade/install itself is so "bad" for lack of a better term, that it voids a working existing SBR install.

ugh.

MrSinatra
2011-02-19, 20:57
here is the info i found on net-udap:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57861

http://projects.robinbowes.com/Net-UDAP/trac

http://projects.robinbowes.com/Net-UDAP/trac/wiki/GettingStarted

http://projects.robinbowes.com/Net-UDAP/trac/wiki/ReceiverSetupProcedure

https://projects.robinbowes.com/Net-UDAP/trac/wiki/SampleUsage

so i'm still trying to figure it all out... looks like i need to install perl something or other, and then some net-udap app, and connect the SBR directly via ethernet wire to the computers NIC. but is it a regular ethernet wire, or a crossover cable, or doesn't it matter?

Mnyb
2011-02-19, 21:16
If server discovery works on the local network port 3483 tcp and udp is open in the firewall it should just be there ? if everything is on the same network and subnet . Any player should just be there be it new and never seen by the server ? if server discovery works .

In some setups it can be necesary to specify the server ip , but that's usually because 3483 is blocked or other network phenomena.


Unless it's gone away to mysb.com in the meantime, maybe log in there and disconect (not unistall) . You should normally be able to fetch back players via the web-UI (but not if it has forgotten the player )

MrSinatra
2011-02-19, 21:43
If server discovery works on the local network port 3483 tcp and udp is open in the firewall it should just be there ?

if you mean the SBR, i agree, it should be there, but it isn't.

all i did was upgrade SBS and this is what happens. the SBR uses wireless dhcp and the router reseves its IP, but the SBR no longer is reachable.


if everything is on the same network and subnet . Any player should just be there be it new and never seen by the server ? if server discovery works .

not quite sure what you mean by that? afaik, the SBR needs a SBC or net-udap to connect when "new"


In some setups it can be necesary to specify the server ip , but that's usually because 3483 is blocked or other network phenomena.

the SBS seems to be working fine now, and the SBS diagnostics all show as "OK"


Unless it's gone away to mysb.com in the meantime, maybe log in there and disconect (not unistall) . You should normally be able to fetch back players via the web-UI (but not if it has forgotten the player )

thats the rub. its not at mysb/sn, and it hasn't been for a long time, but the local SBS has forgotten the SBR. i don't know what is to blame, but it happens when SBS is upgraded.

i found the net-udap tool that runs on windows as is, but i ca't figure out how to use it... should i connect the SBR via wire to the nic on the computer directly, or via wire to the router? if to the computer, should the wire be a crossover cable?

erland
2011-02-19, 23:21
thats the rub. its not at mysb/sn, and it hasn't been for a long time, but the local SBS has forgotten the SBR. i don't know what is to blame, but it happens when SBS is upgraded.

I think the issue is in the SBR firmware, I'm seen similar things myself and it seems like it has a tendency to loose contact with SBS when something happens on the SBS side. It might be that the computer running SBS has changed IP address but it might also be something else.

So, if you like to blame something, you should probably blame the SBR firmware.


i found the net-udap tool that runs on windows as is, but i ca't figure out how to use it... should i connect the SBR via wire to the nic on the computer directly, or via wire to the router? if to the computer, should the wire be a crossover cable?

I haven't tried it myself, but if you have a router(or hub/switch), I think you should connect SBR to the router and also connect the computer running net-udap to the router, both using standard network cables. Since most routers/switches is able to automatically detect crossover cables, it will probably also work with these but the "correct" way is to use standard cables.

I'm not sure if a crossover cable directly connected between computer and SBR will work, it might, I'm just not sure. If you correct them directly a crossover cable is the right thing to use, I'm just not sure if the SBR is able to handle a direct connection.

Mnyb
2011-02-19, 23:37
Also disable the firewall while you use net::udap and the udap discovery only works when the sbr is in setup mode, slowly blinking red

MrSinatra
2011-02-19, 23:42
ok, i got it to work. i write this next bit for people with similar situations to mine, and to remind myself should i later need it ;)

you don't need crossover cables and you wire the SBR directly to the router that the computer running the standalone windows net-udap is running, (which can be a PITA if the SBR is hard to get in and out of where the audio equipment is). i am assuming the computer also has to be wired to the router, but maybe not. heres the udap link:

http://slim2lirc.myown.mailcan.com/udap_shell_1_0_0.exe

make sure the SBR is blinking slow flashing red, and if it isn't, u can make it by holding in the front LED light/button on the SBR i think.

this next part worked for me, but maybe b/c i had previously had this SBR working before:

run the file above, and a udap cmd prompt should show. at the prompt, type:

discover

then type:

conf 1

then it should give a prompt that IDs the SBR. i then put:

list

so i could see which correct settings the SBR already had, so i wouldn't have to set them again, and type all that stuff. (you can do "help" to see all the commands) the wireless here doesn't have security at the moment, so i couldn't use any of the exact examples here:

https://projects.robinbowes.com/Net-UDAP/trac/wiki/SampleUsage

but i just used the "Wireless, 64-bit WEP, DHCP" as my example to follow, and compared what it had wih what "list" showed me.

basically all i'm sure i "set" was the ssid and the SBS IP. i think the other command[s] i set may already have been previously set properly, and so were redundant.

once you have the settings "set" the way you want them, you can "list" again to check the settings, and then you need to:

save_data

and then:

reset

it took a while, like a couple of minutes or so, but the quick flashing white went solid, and i unattached the ethernet cable, and amazingly the SBS could again see and play to the SBR.

many thanks to peter and robin for empowering people to get past logitech's shortcomings.

edit: the reason it might have taken a while after the reset may be b/c of a FW update with the newer SBS, but i'm not sure.

MrSinatra
2011-02-20, 00:04
I think the issue is in the SBR firmware, I'm seen similar things myself and it seems like it has a tendency to loose contact with SBS when something happens on the SBS side. It might be that the computer running SBS has changed IP address but it might also be something else.

So, if you like to blame something, you should probably blame the SBR firmware.

all the devices here use dhcp, but they all also have dhcp reservations. the SBS runs on a wired to the router desktop that always ends .2

the SBR is always .4

that has been that way for years, and was yesterday when i did the SBS upgrade. as for what to blame, i have no idea, but i do know that when i upgrade SBS to a newer version than the current working version, is when it happens, and i think it happens almost every time.

its as if the SBR freaks out and "forgets" some of the settings, just b/c SBS was upgraded.


I haven't tried it myself, but if you have a router(or hub/switch), I think you should connect SBR to the router and also connect the computer running net-udap to the router, both using standard network cables. Since most routers/switches is able to automatically detect crossover cables, it will probably also work with these but the "correct" way is to use standard cables.

yep, i eventually got there too but i think you're right.


I'm not sure if a crossover cable directly connected between computer and SBR will work, it might, I'm just not sure. If you correct them directly a crossover cable is the right thing to use, I'm just not sure if the SBR is able to handle a direct connection.

i was confused by the directions for net-udap, i wasn't sure if they were saying it should be SBR > computer or to router, but to router works.


Also disable the firewall while you use net::udap and the udap discovery only works when the sbr is in setup mode, slowly blinking red

the computer would normally have avast but its relatively new, maybe 6 months old or so, and came with mcafee, but it was on and i still got it to work. i believe thats b/c SBS is "trusted" or something like that.

one weird thing, is that when i did my initial list command, the ssid and ip stuff was blank, but it had the right country region and some other settings were right, so those might be defaults, or might have been remembered. also, it had some non zero numbers for wpa and some other other higher security i don't use... i just left that alone, and it worked regardless.

Phil Leigh
2011-02-20, 00:39
Do you have the router setup to broadcast ssid? -if not, you should. Hiding the ssid achieves nothing and isn't good for SB's.

MrSinatra
2011-02-20, 00:49
Do you have the router setup to broadcast ssid? -if not, you should. Hiding the ssid achieves nothing and isn't good for SB's.

yep, i always broadcast the SSID.

Mnyb
2011-02-20, 01:29
Anybody wonders why my reciever sits in the closet these days .



The IP3k players do this nicely, you still use a select part off the setup wizz, but as old stuff is remebered you just pass by the settings you want to keep and alter the one you don't .

I changed my SB3 to ethernet from wifi yesterday it took all of 20 seconds to fix that.
Changed from wifi to ethernet and it remebered all the static settings for ip subnet gateway etc that I used for wifi so it was a breeze .
Yes from static wifi to static ethernet no fooling around with my router dhcp was on all the time (this is not possible with the new players).

Hint to logitech setup was so beautifully simple yet powerfull and precise on the old players emulate that on the new players, no one size fits all approach.

MrSinatra
2011-02-20, 12:56
well dammit, i spoke too soon.

it WAS working last night; today, not. blue light. SBS can't find it/see it.

so i hook it up to udap and make a SS, see attached. it has the same settings now that it had last night when it worked.

i guess i can't turn it off? what more do i need to tell the damn thing to make it so it will always be reachable by SBS?

also, does it matter / how do i tell it to just match the channel the router uses? the router is set to auto, so it changes periodically.

there is no security on the router.

Atlantic
2011-02-20, 13:45
Can you check what your SBS IP address is? And, for good measure, check what the subnet mask is?

Irrespective of that - which should be checked anyway - I don't like DHCP for servers because DHCP address assignments always have an expiry period. On some routers, this can be as little as 30 mins, though probably longer in your case. (Something you could check, if you wanted, on your router's setup pages.)

Nevertheless, the address will expire sometime, and the server will ask for another. Two things happen at this point:
(i) during this time, the SBS can not be seen by anything, nor can it see anything, and
(ii) the router will assign an address. It might not be the same address, unless you are, genuinely, certain that you have forced the router to always assign that same address.

For servers, my own preference is to use permanent/fixed IP addresses, to avoid either of those problems happening. (It also helps in case I ever need to set up specific routes/firewalls etc.)

But, regardless if you want to do that, do check what the SBS IP address, and subnet, is at the moment, just to make sure.

Not that I think it matters, but is your SBS on Linux or Windows? And have you a separate machine on which you could run Squeezeplay?

regards, Atlantic

dsdreamer
2011-02-20, 13:46
well dammit, i spoke too soon.

it WAS working last night; today, not. blue light. SBS can't find it/see it.

so i hook it up to udap and make a SS, see attached. it has the same settings now that it had last night when it worked.

i guess i can't turn it off? what more do i need to tell the damn thing to make it so it will always be reachable by SBS?

also, does it matter / how do i tell it to just match the channel the router uses? the router is set to auto, so it changes periodically.

there is no security on the router.

My experience is that the only thing that can make this 100% solid is to have static IP addresses set up in the SBR.
lan_ip_mode: 0

This entails setting up all the address, netmask, gateway and DNS server settings, which is a pain but only has to be done once. Sometimes you can get DHCP to populate these settings for you and then make them static by saving them with lan_ip_mode=0, which is fine if you also reserved that IP address in the router setup screen.

MrSinatra
2011-02-20, 14:10
Can you check what your SBS IP address is? And, for good measure, check what the subnet mask is?

the SBS ip is as shown, and is "DHCP Reserved"

the SBR ip also is reserved.

the subnet also is as shown.

windows machine.

i have since "set" lan-gateway=192.168.1.1 ...no joy.

MrSinatra
2011-02-20, 14:14
My experience is that the only thing that can make this 100% solid is to have static IP addresses set up in the SBR.
lan_ip_mode: 0

This entails setting up all the address, netmask, gateway and DNS server settings, which is a pain but only has to be done once. Sometimes you can get DHCP to populate these settings for you and then make them static by saving them with lan_ip_mode=0, which is fine if you also reserved that IP address in the router setup screen.

if i make it static, what are all the net-udap fields that need settings? and can i set it to the .4 ip i reserved in the dhcp range?

aubuti
2011-02-20, 15:46
If you set a true static IP on the SBR then it should be an address outside the router's DHCP range. So if you use .4, then you need to use the router admin facility to take .4 out of the DHCP pool. It may well be easier to pick a static address outside the DHCP range than changing the range, but that really depends on how you've configured the router.

For other parameters, I'm not near my system right now to confirm, but I believe you need:

lan_gateway= router's IP address (probably 192.168.0.1)
lan_network_address= SBR's IP address
lan_subnet_mask=255.255.255.0
primary_dns= router's IP address (probably 192.168.0.1)

Atlantic
2011-02-20, 15:59
if i make it static, what are all the net-udap fields that need settings? and can i set it to the .4 ip i reserved in the dhcp range?

My suggestions would be:

(a) Use an SBS address outside the router's DHCP range (and set the router's range, if necessary, to something sensible and limited), say 192.168.1.90, subnet 255.255.255.0, gateway 192.168.1.1, dns 192.168.1.1 You'll need to do that using the windows control panel etc.

(b) use an SBR address also outside the router's DHCP range, say 192.168.1.91

(c) set the SBR fields:
- lan_gateway 192.168.1.1
- lan_network_address 192.168.1.91
- subnet_mask 255.255.255.0
- primary dns 192.168.1.1
- secondary_dns 192.168.1.1 (or blank)
- squeezecenter_address 192.168.1.90

By the way, your earlier remark, about the wifi channel number changing, is a sensible query. I am sorry to say I cannot think of anything to advise for that unless you can set your wifi AP/router to 'fix' the channel (that's what I have done, but it may not be a good idea if there is interference from other systems nearby).

Let us know how you get on.

regards, Atlantic

Goodsounds
2011-02-20, 18:41
According to your sig line, you have a controller at your house. Why don't you take it along when you go to your parents' house? Why update when there's no need? Why not buy another controller that you leave there?

Along with the suggestions you've gotten from others, it seems you have a lot of ways to avoid having a problem.

I think it's completely understandable that Logitech has not facilitated setup without having the complete system. After all, they sell hardware. You can have a permanent fix by not continuing to use their product in an unintended and unsupported way.

gharris999
2011-02-20, 19:28
Back when robin first wrote the udap stuff, this sequence is what I used. It always worked for me.



discover
list
configure 1
list

set hostname=SBRBETA
set lan_ip_mode=0
set lan_network_address=192.168.0.198
set primary_dns=192.168.0.1
set server_address=192.168.0.199
set squeezecenter_address=192.168.0.222
set squeezecenter_name=slimnas
set lan_gateway=192.168.0.1
set wireless_SSID=XXXXX
set wireless_mode=0
set wireless_region_id=4
set wireless_wpa_cipher=1
set wireless_wpa_mode=1
set wireless_wpa_on=1
set wireless_wpa_psk=XXXXXX
set wireless_channel=11
set interface=0

save_data
reset



I'm not sure about the channel thing if the AP is in auto mode. I'd suggest setting the SBR up using the SBC again and then using "list" to get the appropriate settings.

Then I'd suggest writing a Net::UDAP utility for the iPhone. ;o)

PS: If you're reserving an IP in the router's DHPC settings for the SBR's mac address, I can't see any harm in setting the SBR statically to that address. It's not like the router is likely to hand that address out to another device...unless that device is spoofing the SBR's macaddr.

erland
2011-02-20, 22:30
Can't SBR be reliable when used in a network which uses DHCP ?
Is it just the DHCP server in certain routers that isn't compatible or does all SBR users have these kind of problems as soon as they restart the SBR or the computer ?

Mnyb
2011-02-20, 22:58
Can't SBR be reliable when used in a network which uses DHCP ?
Is it just the DHCP server in certain routers that isn't compatible or does all SBR users have these kind of problems as soon as they restart the SBR or the computer ?

Not always, there can some incopatibilities I think. It generaly works but there can be router or sb bugs.

But there can be other factors, you can put it like " all home networks does not have reliable dhcp".
then you include what is most common ,setup faults the network has more than one dhcp for example.
poeple have maze of routers where some are used purely as ap ( they think ) .
Or not realizing that the " modem " from the isp also is a router, they now have 2 routers in series ( the isp thing should be bridged acount setup in the router ).

I rid myself of the possibility of router induced problems on my local net all my " home " stuff has static ip ( not dhcp reservation ) and all ethernet stuff is interconected trough switches, where the router is just conected to one of the switches , so a router problem does not kill my network 3 of 4 squeezeboxes still see the server etc, internet and wifi will be gone but not my local net.

This migth be overkill, but from a squeezebox perspective at least the server should be on a static ip so it does not go away easilly ( once setup you will not depend on a working server discovery , mine was broken for 2 years due a bug in my server firewall, set up was a head scrather but when it was done it worked stable anyeay. )

finnbrodersen
2011-02-20, 23:59
Hi

Funny I had zero problems upgrading from 7.5.1 to 7.5.3 here the other day.

Steps performed

1) power off SBController and SBReceiver (remove battery and power)
2) un-install old SBServer version, re-boot SBServer WHS PC
3) delete cache folder
4) install new version of SBServer, let SBServer re-build database (30 min)
5) re-boot SBServer WHS PC
6) re-boot SBReceiver, it upgrades FW automatically after about 10 seconds
7) re-boot SBController, perform manual upgrade of FW

Please note, SBController is not used to connect SBReceiver to SBServer, as it is the last device I power up and re-boot.

Mnyb
2011-02-21, 00:11
Hi

Funny I had zero problems upgrading from 7.5.1 to 7.5.3 here the other day.

Steps performed

1) power off SBController and SBReceiver (remove battery and power)
2) un-install old SBServer version, re-boot SBServer WHS PC
3) delete cache folder
4) install new version of SBServer, let SBServer re-build database (30 min)
5) re-boot SBServer WHS PC
6) re-boot SBReceiver, it upgrades FW automatically after about 10 seconds
7) re-boot SBController, perform manual upgrade of FW

Please note, SBController is not used to connect SBReceiver to SBServer, as it is the last device I power up and re-boot.

This is as it should be.

It is not normal that the SBR looses conection with the server after an upgrade while i used the sbr i probably did 100 upgrades with it as I use many beta versions, so something else must be going on too ?

MrSinatra
2011-02-21, 02:03
to everyone,

thx for your help/comments! unfortunately i had to leave my parents house but i will try all this next time i am there. i will let you know how this turns out... i think setting a static IP is the right thing to do, and its been so long since i messed with my SB2 that i forgot thats how i set that up, and its been 100% rock solid.

EDIT: the router is a G class netgear wgr614v9 which is very common and simple, yet reliable and robust. it has the latest fw and has np with ipods, macs, windows, tivo, droid, or other wifi devices re:dhcp. logitech stuff is just not as robust in as many cases, (i went static on my sb2 b/c of similar reasons with my dlink dir655)

in the meantime:


According to your sig line, you have a controller at your house.

yep. i split up my duet, b/c i wanted the SBC for my SB2, and once setup, there shouldn't have been any reoccuring issues for him to use the SBR at his house. the goal here is to fix that, not question my choices.


Why don't you take it along when you go to your parents' house?

1. they live over 3 hours away.
2. i have enough to pack.
3. i have enough to remember.
4. i have actually done that b4, b/c this happens, but i shouldn't have to and shouldn't have to remember to.


Why update when there's no need?

i could have left his SBS at whatever the SBR debuted at, not the point. there are updates worth having, like faster scanning and fixes that make ipeng compatibility better. the notion of "need" is subjective, but besides the point. this should all "just work" as apple likes to say, and it doesn't. thats my focus, identifying what the problems here are. i will do what i can with net-udap, set a static ip and hope that helps, but that isn't even officially supported by logitech and i still don't know if it will work. if it doesn't, i will expect the devs/support to get this to work robustly.

from post 1:


(i know i know, all you helpful smartguys out there will tell me "the solution is simple, don't upgrade" ...well stow that, b/c that is not the proper way for SBS/logitech to address this for the future, and its too late for me now. i should not need a SBC everytime i want to upgrade an existing, installed and working installation of SBS w/SBR, and b/c i am not a machine, i sometimes forget that this is an issue here)


Why not buy another controller that you leave there?

kind of a nervy, totally besides the point question i have to say, and i have no plans to do it, since he has ipeng and doesn't/shouldn't need it.

maybe i should ask "why not buy Sonos?"

also, its ridiculous to think i should have to go thru the setup procedure so often anyway. in other words, even if there was a SBC available there, setting up the SBR over and over again should not be part of the paradigm.


Along with the suggestions you've gotten from others, it seems you have a lot of ways to avoid having a problem.

if i want to constantly transport my SBC anytime i travel there? thats reasonable to you? at some point, are you going to suggest anything helpful that actually speaks to the problem/issue i'm asking about and not your judgments of how i spend my money or what i choose to pack?


I think it's completely understandable that Logitech has not facilitated setup without having the complete system. After all, they sell hardware. You can have a permanent fix by not continuing to use their product in an unintended and unsupported way.

indeed, and one of the things they sell is a SBR, and yes they have sold it BY ITSELF in the past, and i believe you can still find them solo today in some places. (how would logitech allow me today, btw, to expand my duet system? will they sell me more SBRs? a major selling point of the system was one SBC, multiple SBRs, what happened to that?) has it not occured to you that someone could have a boom or touch or radio, or transporter, and if they got a SBR too they'd be in my boat?

why has logitech ignored the bug to allow setting a static IP anyway?

the worst thing slim/logitech has done since i've been using the stuff is to seemingly purposely remove the ability from a computer based SP to setup a SBR, which happened rapidly after i told them it could be done. why do that? why should a touch/radio/sp not be able to setup a SBR? this is so shortsighted of logitech as to be breathtaking.

ghostrider
2011-02-21, 07:10
I certainly understand your frustration and hope you get your problem resolved. However there is no need to jump all over Goodsounds. Everything he has said is correct. You have been around a long time and knew that at least one controller is required to setup the receiver. You felt that a workaround existed and that you had the experience to manage the situation, alas this is not true. The receiver is sold as a standalone offering to expand existing Duet configurations, not as a cheap entry option. I'm glad that Logitech allocates its development resources supporting valid configurations and features instead of wasting time on those that don't follow the rules. Try that at Sonos and see what happens.

Mnyb
2011-02-21, 07:22
yes logitech assumes the presence of one controller, and then you was supposed to expand with more receivers that's the whole reason for it's existence as standalone product .

But it is a rather daft design to use the controller when it could have had a nice web-UI for set-up like so many other networked products...

or a nice helper app based on udap that you run from your pc etc.

For benchmarking:

I use the iTach products from clobal cache for my remote control needs even these simple devices have a built in webserver for adress settings and a small helper program you use to find them if your dhcp had adressed them so you don't know where they are.
Hint Hint for "reciever 2" That's how an UI-less device should be configure via your browser :-)

MrSinatra
2011-02-21, 07:50
I certainly understand your frustration and hope you get your problem resolved. However there is no need to jump all over Goodsounds. Everything he has said is correct.

everything i said was correct too. being correct tho isn't necessarily the same as being helpful, and frankly the tone of his post was "you idiot, do this" and i didn't appreciate it, or being second guessed. instead of telling me what i'm doing wrong, he could ask why i've done what i've done, or better yet focus on solving the issue i want to solve, rather than correcting what he doesn't like about what i'm doing.

i even attempted to pre-empt such comments in the first post, but to no avail. sorry, but i consider it rude to ignore that.


You have been around a long time and knew that at least one controller is required to setup the receiver.

indeed, and the first time i set up the SBR at their house successfully, i did it with the SBC. the problem is that for reasons unknown, usually after SBS upgrades, i have to set the SBR up again. thats the REAL issue. how that gets done, (SBC, net-udap, whatever), is a secondary issue.


You felt that a workaround existed and that you had the experience to manage the situation, alas this is not true.

what are you talking about? i did not expect the SBR to forget its settings yet again. dumb of me? i suppose. but i was just updating SBS, nothing else, the SBR forgetting settings was not supposed to be part of the normal routine. it was only AFTER this BS happened that i turned to net-udap having no other known avenue open to me. yes, i ran out of time, but i now know how to use net-udap and using it to assign a static ip might fix the issue, we'll see.


The receiver is sold as a standalone offering to expand existing Duet configurations, not as a cheap entry option. I'm glad that Logitech allocates its development resources supporting valid configurations and features instead of wasting time on those that don't follow the rules. Try that at Sonos and see what happens.

and again, once the SBR was setup the first time, which WAS done with a SBC, i shouldn't have to do it over and over again, (really, barring something major, ever again) regardless of whether or not i update SBS or anything short of big changes to the router (which there have never been).

and why shouldn't the SBR be an entry product? why purposely make it so that SP or the touch or radio can't set it up, esp when SP USED TO BE able to do it?

if someone buys a duet, and the SBC breaks or dies, and they use ipeng instead, is that no longer a "valid" configuration in your view?

Mnyb
2011-02-21, 08:20
Controller does one thing SP could never do, that is conecting to the reciever directly via ad-hoc mode wifi, not involving the router, hence SP based setup don't work in all situations the sbr must have a previus somewhat working conection to ever be seen by SP so that is not a complete solution.
radio or Touch do have their own radio's so possible if lug your radio close to the reciver, the ad- hoc conection has less range.

sbr does not in general looses it settings ? Just because you upgrade the server, maybe a fw upgrade to the sbr itself but also not a common problem. You are 100% sure no one pressed the button ;) .

If the the led was blue it had working network settings btw .

Other possible malfunctions, the locla sbs server has no mysb.com conection or credentials so it cant log on to see player there, therefore not fetch it back.

The player is in some limbo left hangin not conected to either sbs or mysb.com restart can help, but if mysb.com conection is broken and player want's to go there, there is really only the controller that can tell it to change server, ipeng can't in this or similar situations, so sometimes you must have a controller even if all settings are ok.
If you don't have a controller the only way out of such snag is to reset it and force it to where you want it with net:: udap .

So all user that runs the sbr can still find themselfs in situations only solvable with a controller, even if it's settings are intact and you have web- UI or iPeng .

It does not help that several version of ss/ sc/ sbs has or had problems with fetching players from mysb.com . I think 7.6 beta has or had such bug recently ?

So don't ebay the controller even if You never use it.

MrSinatra
2011-02-21, 09:07
Controller does one thing SP could never do, that is conecting to the reciever directly via ad-hoc mode wifi, not involving the router, hence SP based setup don't work in all situations the sbr must have a previus somewhat working conection to ever be seen by SP so that is not a complete solution.

when i got the SP to work i think it was after a hard reset, but i'm not sure, it was some time back. SP can [used to] work over a router wirelessly tho. (basically, i believe SP just imitated a SBC, using the router to do the wireless bit)

btw, my DroidX can see my SBR when its red blinking ad-hoc-ing, (maybe other times too) and i found this:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=76584

so if i figure out how to install it, i'll try that too, but i think it will need to be wired if red flashing, but maybe not if blue.


radio or Touch do have their own radio's so possible if lug your radio close to the reciver, the ad- hoc conection has less range.

i don't have a touch or radio, but pippin said they can't set up a SBR, so i'm just going by what he said.


sbr does not in general looses it settings ? Just because you upgrade the server, maybe a fw upgrade to the sbr itself but also not a common problem. You are 100% sure no one pressed the button ;) .

anything is possible, but i know this has happened enough times to know it can't always be the button got pushed. also, i know for certain a few times when that didn't happen, and upgrades or whatnot were being done. like i said before, my sb2 used to do this when i first got it, and its been so long since i switched it to static ip that i forgot all about that, and doing so fixed the problems, so i am hoping going static on this SBR will be equally successful.

if you do static, and not dhcp, that could be why you don't see this issue. most others i'm sure have a SBC, so they just bite the bullet and re-set-it-up whenever that happens i suppose.

the dhcp method just doesn't seem robust and resilient on ip3k stuff anyway, and reservations don't seem to help.


If the the led was blue it had working network settings btw .

i've seen lots of light combinations. it was blue when i left, but i can't recall now in what order anything else happened.


Other possible malfunctions, the locla sbs server has no mysb.com conection or credentials so it cant log on to see player there, therefore not fetch it back.

the sbs has mysb.com working credentials and the player is not at mysb.com


The player is in some limbo left hangin not conected to either sbs or mysb.com restart can help, but if mysb.com conection is broken and player want's to go there, there is really only the controller that can tell it to change server, ipeng can't in this or similar situations, so sometimes you must have a controller even if all settings are ok.

the sbr hasn't been to mysb.com in ages and like i said, i had it working this time with the local server, but after some time for an unknown reason it stopped. point noted about keeping a sbc around tho for easy extraction of bad situations, jic.


If you don't have a controller the only way out of such snag is to reset it and force it to where you want it with net:: udap .

So all user that runs the sbr can still find themselfs in situations only solvable with a controller, even if it's settings are intact and you have web- UI or iPeng .

you mean only solvable by controller OR net-udap, right?


It does not help that several version of ss/ sc/ sbs has or had problems with fetching players from mysb.com . I think 7.6 beta has or had such bug recently ?

So don't ebay the controller even if You never use it.

no, i'll keep the SBC. i still like it even tho ipeng and squeezecommander are better. its still useful here, while at my parents the only use would be for when the SBR shits itself. they have ipeng and one UI is enough.

erland
2011-02-21, 11:16
Is there a bug for this ?

Any normal user would get frustrated if they had to re-configure a device just because they upgraded the server software or firmware. I would expect to configure it once and then never have to do it again unless I changed to a new router or did any other changes to the network. It should work with DHCP and if it doesn't it's clearly a bug which should be reported so someone can fix it.

Logitech can't expect normal users to reconfigure the router to use static IP addresses, this might work for users on this forum but it's way too advanced for most Duet customers.

MrSinatra
2011-02-21, 11:36
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15121

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8258

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=7502

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5212

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15526

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6252

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11940

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14364

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9298

obviously some of those bugs are more germane than others, but its obvious to me anyway that dhcp + ip3k can = problems. i really think this is one of those situations where its a case by case basis, due to routers, setups, etc... not to mention it seems most forum/smart folks use static IP, and thus avoid dhcp issues.

for my part erland, i can't nail down why exactly this is happening, if its the upgrades, power cycles, router, etc... but it has happened way too much. as you say, once everything gets working one time, regardless of how it is done, it should remain working no questions asked, short of big changes, and i don't consider, for example, upgrading from 7.5.3b to 7.5.4b a big change that should cause this.

the issue isn't where is the SBC, its why do i need it so often?

edit:

this shows as fixed:

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9425

Goodsounds
2011-02-21, 12:13
You have been around a long time and knew that at least one controller is required to setup the receiver. You felt that a workaround existed and that you had the experience to manage the situation, alas this is not true. The receiver is sold as a standalone offering to expand existing Duet configurations, not as a cheap entry option. I'm glad that Logitech allocates its development resources supporting valid configurations and features instead of wasting time on those that don't follow the rules. Try that at Sonos and see what happens.
Well put.

The SB folks have developed a system that most of us enjoy daily. Not all of the product offerings are as terrific as others are. The Duet may be the most problematic for users (though I guess Radio also has its issues too).

I think OP's view, that losing setup parameters when upgrading is a flaw, is reasonable. It can be dealt with, it can be avoided, but not in the way he wants to do it. To be so obstinate to continue pursuing what for him is a failed strategy rather than multiple easily available successful alternatives is something I don't understand.

Save yourself the pain, OP. Restrict your upgrades to visits when you've remembered to bring the controller. It ain't that complicated. Have a beer, scream an explitive because of the annoyance of having to set it up again, and move on.

MrSinatra
2011-02-21, 16:43
Any normal user would get frustrated if they had to re-configure a device just because they upgraded the server software or firmware. I would expect to configure it once and then never have to do it again unless I changed to a new router or did any other changes to the network. It should work with DHCP and if it doesn't it's clearly a bug which should be reported so someone can fix it.

Logitech can't expect normal users to reconfigure the router to use static IP addresses, this might work for users on this forum but it's way too advanced for most Duet customers.

well put, (to steal anothers phrase).

to everyone attempting to help with the issue[s] thx. to the happy couple taking issue with my behavior, as if the fault is mine, not logitechs, please, keep it to yourself. i mentioned b4 you posted it was dumb of me to forget i often needed a SBC when upgrading; your posts are nothing more than condescending rubbing my nose in it, when i'd already admitted it, enough already.

i'd also like to point out that i can get the SBR to wirelessly work using net-udap, but it doesn't persist. again, my fault? i think not. the SBR gets "lost" other times too btw, not ONLY via upgrades.

MrSinatra
2011-02-22, 08:09
erland et al,

while it may be unrelated, sounds similar:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85822

like the bugs above, its not hard to find other threads like that in the forums.

MrSinatra
2011-04-28, 10:50
just an update on this...

i think i got everything working permanently, but i'm still in wait and see mode. i'm not sure what i did, or what made the difference.

i didn't review any of these threads to try any of the suggestions made b/c i didn't have to go that far. i fired up "squeeze config" on my droid (thx flattermann!) and added 8.8.8.8 as the second DNS and made sure dhcp was off on the SBR, and things seemed to work.

regardless, the bottom line for me is that using dhcp on ip3k (which is the default) is not reliable. my advice to folks is to set ip3k stuff to static ips, outside the dhcp range if possible, (although i think this SBR is staticly set to an ip reserved for it in the dhcp range).

when set to be static, uptime seems to be 100%, regardless of SBS upgrades or other issues. thx to everyone who offered constructive advice. and one more plug for droid squeeze config, its really good!

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15121