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danco
2010-11-16, 04:01
I've just got a new microwave, and put it in a different place in my kitchen. I had to do that because it is a combi model, and the old place was not suitable when I use it as a fan oven.

I now find my Squeezebox drops out when I use the microwave, which did not previously happen. I've tried setting my wireless network to channel 1 and also to channel 13 (available in the UK). I have dropouts on both.

Does that mean I will have problems whatever channel I use? Are there any other suggestions for avoiding dropouts?

Soulkeeper
2010-11-16, 04:16
The best way is to go cabled. If that's completely out of the question, you could either try some HomePlug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomePlug) solution, or buy two 5GHz routers; one to use as a wireless access point, and another to use as a wireless bridge for the Squeezebox. Unless your new microwave oven pollutes the 5GHz band too, of course.

bradcook
2010-11-16, 04:37
Mircowave ovens are awful for giving interference on the 2.4Ghz range.

My receiver used to drop most of the time when the microwave finished (though strangely enough was OK when it was in operation).

In the end I moved the receiver to the otherside of the kitchen - and its much happier.

andynormancx
2010-11-16, 04:54
You can try a new router, some cope better than others, but the best option is a set of powerline Ethernet adapters. Extremely easy to use, just plug one into the router and the Squeezebox into the other.

I've had most success with the Devolo (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0014LGNMS?tag=normancx-21) ones.

Mnyb
2010-11-16, 05:06
Is it only the placement of the micro ? some seems to leak far for rf than others ? .
Try another brand of micro ?

kc5f
2010-11-16, 06:33
Yes, we had a microwave about halfway between our router and the receiver (about 40 feet total with three walls) that would cause problems. It died during a power surge (but the stereo and SBR didn't!). We replaced it and the new one doesn't give any problems. There's definitely a difference in how much interference individual microwaves cause.

maggior
2010-11-16, 06:39
I had problems with a microwave in the kitchen too. Sometimes it was fine and then other times it would just scramble the duet's brains. We tried moving the microwave to the other side of the kitchen, but no luck.

In the end I bought a pair of homeplugs. They worked out great - easy to seteup and super reliable. In a year and a half (knock on wood), I haven't had a glitch.

bigblackdog
2010-11-17, 01:12
Powerline ethernet works very well. Is a great alternative when wifi is compromised.

danco
2010-11-17, 01:18
So basically the solutions suggested are to throw money at the problem.

The current situation is a hassle, but not that much of a hassle. I don't *have* to listen while the microwave is on.

aubuti
2010-11-17, 04:51
So basically the solutions suggested are to throw money at the problem.
If you are only interested in no-cost solutions, the two that come to mind are:
1) return the microwave and get one that isn't so bad about spewing 2.4GHz interference all over the place (since it was the new microwave that introduced the problem in the first place), or
2) try relocating the SB.

Soulkeeper
2010-11-17, 05:29
So basically the solutions suggested are to throw money at the problem.

The current situation is a hassle, but not that much of a hassle. I don't *have* to listen while the microwave is on.

Not using your SB and microwave oven at the same time is certainly a no-cost solution. It is also guaranteed to work reliably. So... problem solved, then?

danco
2010-11-18, 00:51
If you are only interested in no-cost solutions, the two that come to mind are:
1) return the microwave and get one that isn't so bad about spewing 2.4GHz interference all over the place (since it was the new microwave that introduced the problem in the first place), or
2) try relocating the SB.

Returning the microwave doesn't seem a sensible solution.

1. I doubt if it could be returned, as this issue can't be described as a fault in the product.

2. It is the best microwave around for functions and price.

3. Are there any sites that report on microwaves from the point of view of wi-fi interference?Keeping testing models is not practical.

Moving the microwave back to where the old one was might work. But I think it needs to be where it is, because it also works as an ordinary oven, so it probably needs to be in a fairly open area.

Moving the Squeezebox is hardly practical, given that it has to plug in to the stereo system.

Moving the router might work, and I may well try it, but the only place that's likely to work will need a step-ladder, and I'm not all that steady, so it's a last resort.

No-one answered my original question, not even to say that I should simply try all channels myself(which I may do, but will take a fair bit of time). To repeat that question, given that I get problems with both channels 1 and 13, will I get interference on all channels?

Homeplug might well be my best answer, but certainly free or cheaper possibilities need to be looked at first. In the early days of that technology there were warnings against using homeplug with extension sockets or surge suppressors. Does that still apply?

andynormancx
2010-11-18, 02:44
Powerline Ethernet works best when plugged directly into the wall, but it also copes fairly well with extensions, unless you mains happens to be very noisy already. I can't comment on the performance with surge protectors as apart from my UPS for my server I don't have anything like that.

A couple of my powerline Ethernet adapters are plugged into extensions leads.

Soulkeeper
2010-11-18, 02:51
To repeat that question, given that I get problems with both channels 1 and 13, will I get interference on all channels?

That depends on whether your microwave oven emits narrow band noise on multiple frequencies, two of which correspond to channels 1 and 13, while staying silent on frequencies between those, or if it emits broad band noise over the whole 2.4GHz WiFi spectrum.

After applying Occam's razor to these scenarios, the answer that emerges is: Probably.

Phil Leigh
2010-11-18, 03:08
I would try channel 6

toby10
2010-11-18, 04:23
So basically the solutions suggested are to throw money at the problem......

Well, you spent money to create the problem, so yes you may well have to spend money to correct the problem. ;)

Microwave ovens are strange beasts. A while ago a Boom user was having similar microwave interference issues on a brand new microwave. In an effort to attempt to duplicate his issue I placed my Boom inches from my 20+ year old microwave (it came with the house so I'm guessing it is original to the house). I figured my ancient microwave would be spewing tons of interference, not so. Even the Boom's WiFi signal indicator barely even registered any signal differences, and I attributed what little signal difference it showed to the fact I was holding the Boom and slowly moving it around to try and find a point of interference. But nothing, the Boom just kept streaming and was not in the least affected by my microwave.

Better shielding? Better door sealing? Different forms/types of microwave cooking signals? I have no idea.

aubuti
2010-11-18, 06:51
Returning the microwave doesn't seem a sensible solution.

1. I doubt if it could be returned, as this issue can't be described as a fault in the product.
Whether or not it's a fault of the microwave is debateable. In general microwaves are not supposed to emit a lot of RF interference, and many don't. Whether it's a problem with the design of your model or a particular defect with the actual mw you have is hard to say.


Moving the Squeezebox is hardly practical, given that it has to plug in to the stereo system.
Okay. I only suggested it because you never indicated what kind of SB you are talking about. If it were a Boom or Radio (or you had more flexible cabling options) it may have been practical.


No-one answered my original question, not even to say that I should simply try all channels myself(which I may do, but will take a fair bit of time). To repeat that question, given that I get problems with both channels 1 and 13, will I get interference on all channels?
I would expect that you will have problems with all channels. Given that 1 and 13 don't work for you, I would try the remaining non-overlapping channels, which are 6 (as suggested by Phil) and also possibly 7 and 8 (I'm not sure about that because channel 13 isn't officially open in the US). I expect testing all 3 channels would take less than 15 minutes, with no need for a step ladder. Change the channel setting on your router, start the SB playing, start the microwave, listen for dropouts. Repeat x2.

maggior
2010-11-18, 07:24
No-one answered my original question, not even to say that I should simply try all channels myself(which I may do, but will take a fair bit of time). To repeat that question, given that I get problems with both channels 1 and 13, will I get interference on all channels?

Homeplug might well be my best answer, but certainly free or cheaper possibilities need to be looked at first. In the early days of that technology there were warnings against using homeplug with extension sockets or surge suppressors. Does that still apply?

I tried moving the microwave across the room. I tried moving the squeezebox. I changed the orientation of the squeezebox. My router moved from the top floor to the basement. I didn't bother trying different WiFi channels because I knew that would make no difference. Sometimes I would think I solved the problem, and then it came back. It drove me nuts!

You can futz around with no cost solutions all you want, but in the end I believe you will be looking at "throwing money" at it to be your final solution. I was just trying to save you some grief so you could cut to the chase to a sure-fire solution.

I agree returning the microwave doesn't make sense.

Yes, you are not supposed to use homeplugs on an extension cord or a surge suppressor. These warnings have to do with maximizing the performance. Since streaming audio (even lossless) is relatively low bandwidth, homeplugs will likely work even under those sub-optimal conditions.

bobkoure
2010-11-18, 07:34
So basically the solutions suggested are to throw money at the problem.
Not so much 'throw money' as stop using wireless - or at least change it.
I'm guessing you can't return the microwave as it's been used. How else to discover the interference problem?
You might try moving your wireless access point (already mentioned, I think) or your squeezebox. (free solution)
Depending on where your microwave oven is located, you might be able to reflect the interference so that it doesn't bother your connection. Aluminum foil, or basically anything metallic will reflect microwave. Probably only useful if it's through-the-wall interference that's getting you, so you can tack alu foil on the wall. (Cheap solution; effectively free if you have the foil already)
If you can pull CAT5/6, it will definitely solve interference problems and is fairly cheap.
If you can't do that, you might get a dd-wrt capable router and use it as a relay - but that only *might* solve your problem. On the other hand, you can get a dd-wrt router for around $30 in the states. I'd expect there to be one similarly cheap where you are. (This might actually be cheaper than pulling wire, depending on whether you have to buy a plug crimper.)

westom
2010-11-18, 17:04
Returning the microwave doesn't seem a sensible solution.
1. I doubt if it could be returned, as this issue can't be described as a fault in the product.
Even in the earliest days of Microwave ovens, microwave leakage was considered a major defect. You have described 'symptoms' of what would be excessive leakage. Symptoms. If you make a conclusion base only upon that, then you are using junk science.

Conclusions mean hard facts. Many better computer manufacturers provide software that can read WiFi dB signal strength, or even more important, the dB 'signal to noise' ratio (or find Netstumbler). Five bars are wasted information so that the most naive can 'feel' informed. You need hard numbers to know.

Now you are ready to learn what exists. What happens to those numbers when the microwave is on and off? Then go farther. Try wrapping the microwave in 2 foot wide aluminum foil to see how those numbers change. Remember, a gap between sheets of aluminum foil means no shielding.

A most common suspect is a defective door seal. Manufacturing defects such as this can result in major recalls. Even worse (and least likely) is leakage from inside the electronics bay. Manufacturer would rather take it back rather than let word get out. With hard facts, they are usually 'extremely happy' to remove a problem rather than risk bad press.

Makes no difference what channel is used. Those micro-thin channels are all same frequency to a microwave.

Goodsounds
2010-11-18, 17:33
I don't *have* to listen while the microwave is on.

Exactly. Problem solved.

Microwave ovens are crappy to cook with anyway.

danco
2010-11-19, 02:47
I was just trying to save you some grief so you could cut to the chase to a sure-fire solution.

Yes, you are not supposed to use homeplugs on an extension cord or a surge suppressor. These warnings have to do with maximizing the performance. Since streaming audio (even lossless) is relatively low bandwidth, homeplugs will likely work even under those sub-optimal conditions.

Thanks. That helps, as I think the warning about extension plugs was a major reason for my not liking that solution.

Westom, your answer had some valuable general information.But you are just plain wrong (in general) in saying it makes no difference what channel is used, as regards microwave interference. It doesn't seem to make a difference with my new microwave, but the same issue with my old one was completely cured by changing channels.

bradcook
2010-11-19, 04:49
As stated earlier homeplugs work better when plugger into the wall - but mine seem OK when used in an extnsion cable (I use 85Mbs for info - the newer 200Mbs AV standard maybe better).

However - they certainly (or mine at least) don't like surge protectors - I cant get any signal at all the other side of the protector.

You also need to be wary of interference - I plugged ours into the same socket as my wife was using for an external water pump. When the pump was on - no signal, as soon as it was switched off then the signal came back. Unfortunately for us we had no other option but to use that plug :-(

I apporeciate your comment about moving the squeezebox - I was fortunate in that I could hide a 3m phono lead so I could keep the stereo on top of the microwave and move the receiver to the otherside of the kitchen.

MeSue
2010-11-19, 10:51
Here's another long microwave thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=52027&highlight=microwave+effect

Nice to see the advice hasn't changed in the past 2 years. ;-)

I put up with it for the past 2 years, but when I saw your thread, I remembered I had a set of ancient powerline adapters we were no longer using. I hooked 'em up and nuked some water for 3 minutes with no dropout. Yeah!

By the way, these are very old first generation powerline adapters I've used off and on for various things. They work just fine for this. So if you decide to go that route, you may be able to find a cheap used set on eBay. For instance: http://cgi.ebay.com/Netgear-XE102-PowerLine-Adapter-Set-2ea-/170566207729

These do need to go directly into a wall outlet, though. No extension cords or surge protectors.

andynormancx
2010-11-19, 12:33
Microwave ovens are crappy to cook with anyway.

That depends entirely on what you are trying to cook in them. Yes they are crappy if you try to cook entire meals in them or try and cook meat etc in them.

However they are excellent for jobs like steaming vegetables, the end result is as good if not better than steaming over a pan. Plus it is quicker, uses less water and almost certainly less power.

My microwave also makes my porridge for me every morning, tastes the same as in the pan, takes half the time and doesn't leave me with a pan coated in impossible to remove porridge ;)

That said, our microwave spends at least half it's time in the other mode, as a conventional convection oven, very handy if your main appliance has only a single oven.

maggior
2010-11-19, 14:25
Here's another long microwave thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=52027&highlight=microwave+effect



I remember that thread since I participated in it a lot. At the time my microwave didnt' seem to interfer at all. However, it started to and got really annoying since it was intermittent.

If they work in your house, homeplugs or pulling CAT-5 is the way to go.

Goodsounds
2010-11-19, 14:33
That depends entirely on what you are trying to cook in them. Yes they are crappy if you try to cook entire meals in them or try and cook meat etc in them.

However they are excellent for jobs like steaming vegetables, the end result is as good if not better than steaming over a pan. Plus it is quicker, uses less water and almost certainly less power.

My microwave also makes my porridge for me every morning, tastes the same as in the pan, takes half the time and doesn't leave me with a pan coated in impossible to remove porridge ;)

That said, our microwave spends at least half it's time in the other mode, as a conventional convection oven, very handy if your main appliance has only a single oven.
Re-warming leftovers - good.

Cooking veggies - not good. Stuff seems to go from uncooked to overcooked within 30 seconds, I think it's because it gets too hot. I've found the microwave tends to make some veggies tough. I much prefer steaming, it's easier and more forgiving

Porridge (oatmeal to us Yanks) - the old fashioned kind needs to cook for a good long while if you don't soak it overnight, and it's easily done in a pot.

But to each his own. Sorry for the off topic comment.