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MichelleUK
2010-08-09, 06:05
Hi,

Does anyone know if there are any plans to update the Boom design so that it has the colour display that is used on the Radio?

I have a radio already,and love it, but now want one for the kitchen too so that I can keep the first one just for the bathroom/bedroom. BUT...I don't want to go ahead an buy one only to find out that a stereo version is available a couple of weeks later! I don't fancy the current design of the Boom as I think I will miss the colour display too much.

Thanks for your help,

Michelle

erland
2010-08-09, 08:44
If anyone knows, they aren't going to reveal it on these forums. Logitech usually don't comment unreleased products. A new upgraded Boom is a logical step and Logitech would probably be able to release one without any major software changes compared to the Radio. However, it would still be a surprise to me if they released any new Squeezebox hardware during the next month.

So my recommendation would be that if you want one now, get one of the existing products.

TiredLegs
2010-08-09, 09:01
Isn't the Radio already the new Boom (at least from Logitech's point of view)?

mherger
2010-08-09, 09:06
> Isn't the Radio already the new Boom (at least from Logitech's point of
> view)?

No, it isn't. Project name was "baby boom", not "boom 2"

--

Michael

Aslak3
2010-08-09, 10:21
No, it isn't. Project name was "baby boom", not "boom 2"

--

Michael

Yeah, I bloody hope it's not. Would need stereo speakers to be considered the "next boom".

JJZolx
2010-08-09, 10:29
Given all the difficulties with the Radio I'd be really surprised to see another SqueezeOS based player. I think the Touch is the end of the line until something more robust and easier to program can be developed.

pfarrell
2010-08-09, 11:25
On 08/09/2010 01:29 PM, JJZolx wrote:
> Given all the difficulties with the Radio I'd be really surprised to see
> another SqueezeOS based player. I think the Touch is the end of the
> line until something more robust and easier to program can be
> developed.

Any one who has been on this forum for more than a minute knows that
you, Jim, think that the line is doomed. You keep repeating this claim.
With zero facts to back up your opinion.

Why are you crying wolf? Did you not learn that story as a little kid?

Whether it is called SqueezeOS or not, I don't care. But if there is to
be any followon products, they will be built on an embedded,
programmable platform, with some sort of Linux hidden under it. I'm not
saying this with any claim of inside information, but rather that is how
nearly all consumer products are being built these days. At least all
moderate volume consumer products, from routers to access points to TVs
to cell phones.

The current Boom is pretty old in consumer electronics age. I love the
sound of mine, but its about time to refresh it to keep it current. Old
consumer electronics just don't move, and as Dire Straits sang, you
gotta move these refrigerators, gotta move these color TVs....


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

maggior
2010-08-09, 11:38
The current Boom is pretty old in consumer electronics age. I love the
sound of mine, but its about time to refresh it to keep it current. Old
consumer electronics just don't move, and as Dire Straits sang, you
gotta move these refrigerators, gotta move these color TVs....


...moola moola...

Great song and a good point. I wonder if the the great deals at logitech.com (via coupon codes) and Amazon on the Boom are a reflection of the need to "move product" to make way for a replacement. If they need to provide that steep of a monitary incentive to sell product, it seems like they need to have something new and compelling.

This makes sense for the Boom, but I wonder why coupon codes keep popping up for fantastic deals on the Touch. That's worrysome because the Touch isn't ready for a replacement anytime soon.

JJZolx
2010-08-09, 11:46
Any one who has been on this forum for more than a minute knows that
you, Jim, think that the line is doomed. You keep repeating this claim.
With zero facts to back up your opinion.

The Radio has had major problems since day one and they continue nearly a year later. Touch's development was a freaking nightmare. That's all. They could bring out a new player based on the SqueezeOS platform under the premise that there's a lot of work already in the bag, but it remains unstable and such a move would only be compounding their support costs.

pfarrell
2010-08-09, 12:19
On 08/09/2010 02:46 PM, JJZolx wrote:
>> With zero facts to back up your opinion.
>
> The Radio has had major problems since day one and they continue nearly
> a year later.

That has not been my experience. My Radio has worked since very early in
the beta process. Granted, I have never been tempted to use it as a
clock radio with alarms, so I have skipped a lot of pain that others see.

From what tea leaves I can see, the Radio was rushed when the Touch
missed the Christmas sales cycle. Not a lot of news that it was not a
smooth effort. But I have zero problems with mine.

> Touch's development was a freaking nightmare. That's
> all.

That is your opinion and your words. The Touch as a SlimDevice came
together fairly quickly. The UI was rough, but the basics worked from
early on. It was the damn TinySBS that has been a schedule killer. Not a
lot of news here, embedded systems are a lot harder than normal
computer/consumer applications.

I will argue that if they left the "server reads from USB disks and
thumb drives" off the advertising copy, they could have had a successful
product nearly a year earlier.

I personally have zero interest in TinySBS. It does not solve any
problems that I have.

Again, whether or not it is called a "SqueezeOS platform", all modern
devices like the Touch have an embedded Linux in them. Its how its done
for low volume stuff, which included these days 40 inch TVs, that sell
far more units than any SqueezeBox ever will. There are bathroom scales
with Bluetooth or WiFi, they have embedded Linux in them.

Perhaps they had too many features on the checklist, perhaps the
engineers were bad, or the engineering management was bad, that is water
over the damn. If there is a follow-on product, its going to be built
using a touch screen and an embedded Linux base. The smart phone
industry (do I need to mention that the most popular smartphone has a
linux embedded system in it) has driven the market to demand touch
screens. And the volumes seen in smartphones have driven the prices for
touchscreens down to levels that could not have been imagined when the
Touch was first created.

Pat
--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

bwaldron
2010-08-09, 16:40
I wonder why coupon codes keep popping up for fantastic deals on the Touch. That's worrysome because the Touch isn't ready for a replacement anytime soon.

The Touch not being available any longer at Amazon (even through third-party sellers) makes one wonder as well.

Goodsounds
2010-08-09, 19:04
The past few years have been tumultuous. Product completion and release delays, supply disruptions (which are still ongoing), etc. I wonder what the after-the-fact internal conclusions and action points are, if any? Or, are we looking at orphans, products lacking champions within the grand scheme of things at Logitech?

On the embedded linux comment, people who have expertise and experience in such matters tell me that most companies are agnostic concerning which embedded OS's to use in products. Decisions are made based on many factors, including cost and timing considerations. "Cost" can involve many things, including development resources, specialized needs of the software, costs of tools and licenses, etc. Embedded linux can often be the right choice, and oftentimes not.

If there were people who worked for nothing to make free construction-grade lumber available for construction, many houses would be build using it. It wouldn't have to be better than other choices if it were free, because "good enough" is often all that is needed.

Honva
2010-08-09, 20:52
As a user, I was very disappointed with the product line in the last couple of years. My feeling is that Logitech is destroying the very good slimdevices line in the last few years. To we end users, we just want a device with good audio quality, simple user interface and reliable software. The old classic dump squeezeboxes just did the job well.

What Logictech did was:
1. Unnecessarily changed the devices to linux computers to increase complexity that their company's programmers can't handle.
2. Dropped the important digital out on most of their products except top of the line. Consumers ended up with not much choices.
3. In this age of global village, Logitech dropped support to display international character sets. (need users to do their own mods to fix)
4. Discontinued useful functions when their programmer cannot solve their own problem. eg. Remote number keys for favorites; constant digital out level while having variable analogue out, etc.
5. Newer software even less stable than older version.

I was a happy user when I bought my first squeezebox feeling the product was so much better than competition. My recent purchases ended up with a lot of time spent on finding workarounds.

mherger
2010-08-09, 21:49
While I as an employee have not always been happy with what decisions were taken, your list of criticism isn't fair. And it's a very personal list of issues too. Let's look at it another way:

> 1. Unnecessarily changed the devices to linux computers to increase
> complexity that their company's programmers can't handle.

- users were asking for more codec support on the device
- users were asking for artwork display
- users were asking for a simple streaming solution
- ...

A change was needed because users wanted a lot which the old platform couldn't do any more. It's probably not the changes _you_ wanted, but a large part of our customer base did.

> 2. Dropped the important digital out on most of their products except
> top of the line. Consumers ended up with not much choices.

What's your bottom of the line? Radio or the now dropped Classic? There are different products: with or without speakers. Those without speakers have digital out. Those with speakers don't. It's a different use case with different features.

Not much choices? There used to be two products (Classic, Transporter). Today there are five (Transporter, Duet, Radio, Touch, Boom).

> 3. In this age of global village, Logitech dropped support to display
> international character sets.

It's unfortunate that support for _some_ international characters was dropped. But others were added at the same time. And it's for sure not dropping all of them.

> 4. Discontinued useful functions when their programmer cannot solve
> their own problem. eg. Remote number keys for favorites; constant
> digital out level while having variable analogue out, etc.

If you were following these forums you'd know that a.) the remote keys are still fully functional, though probably not the way you like it, and b.) is being added for the next major release.

> 5. Newer software even less stable than older version.

Again your POV, no facts. Numbers of support cases prove different.

--

Michael

Mnyb
2010-08-09, 21:51
On 5. I disagree, slightly. Never version are very stable for me, but the old ones was to. I have no big problems with sbs(I see things in the 7.6 beta,but it's the purpose of beta).
A problem is that upgrading sometimes takes a completely clean install to function, just upgrading is not always cutting it (hence i slightly disagree).

On 2. I simply don't understand the receiver has digital out and the Touch ??
Receiver is by far the cheapest thing they ever produced it has digital out.
Touch is giving you 24/96 digital out at price that is a fraction off what a transporter costes you.
So under logitechs flag digital out has gotten cheaper and better, you are wrong on this.

Digital out on boom or radio would not make sense, they are standalone players with their own speakers not meant to plug in to your stereo, you want digital out on your car stereo to ?

Mnyb
2010-08-09, 21:59
> 4. Discontinued useful functions when their programmer cannot solve
> their own problem. eg. Remote number keys for favorites; constant
> digital out level while having variable analogue out, etc.

If you were following these forums you'd know that a.) the remote keys are still fully functional, though probably not the way you like it, and b.) is being added for the next major release.
[color=blue]

Michael

Eh actually not, you are going to get 100% fixed output on the Touch but not 100% fixed digital at the same time as variable analog, Andy said so in another tread.

And the SB3 had this feature removed the SB3 only has the setting:


"You can fix the volume control at 100% if you are using the volume control on your amplifier to control loudness or need perfect digital passthrough. This affects both digital and analog volume."

Older SB3 firmware had the option to fix digital out while still using the analog volume .

Why this had to go nobody had told us.

erland
2010-08-09, 23:21
I can only talk for myself but IMHO the Radio and the Touch is the best Squeezeboxes I've ever had. The Duet(including Controller) is the only disappointment I've seen recently.

- Classic is great but a bit boring with the monochrome display after you've seen Touch/Radio
- Duet was a disappointment for me but that's mainly because I want a central display
- Transporter was probably excellent but a bit expensive for my taste considering the equipment I would be connecting it to.
- Boom is great but a bit boring with the monochrome display after you've seen Touch/Radio
- Radio is excellent besides the buggy alarm handling
- Touch is the best Squeezebox I've ever seen (I'm not using the built-in server which clearly have some issues yet).

We should also remember that all these Squeezeboxes was created while Slim Devices people was in charge and took the decisions. It's going to be more interesting to see where Logitech plans to go after this when all the old Slim Devices managers are gone. I suspect we are going to see more mass market related devices, with more focus on simplicity and less focus on audio quality, but that's just my personal guess.

There are some possible new hardware versions that would make sense because they could be supported with minimal software changes:
- Boom with color touch display
- Receiver based on SqueezeOS
- Controller with touch display (but I doubt they will do this as it will be extremely hard to compete with iPhone/iPad/Android hardware)

However, personally I suspect Logitech will focus on selling existing products a while longer, the old devices shouldn't cost them too much in maintenance so there isn't any reason to get rid of them as long as they are able to sell the units they produce.

It's easy to complain on Logitech but to be honest, can anyone mention one product from a competitor that beats the price/performance/features of the Squeezebox products, assuming you care about good audio quality ?

bwaldron
2010-08-10, 09:28
It's easy to complain on Logitech but to be honest, can anyone mention one product from a competitor that beats the price/performance/features of the Squeezebox products, assuming you care about good audio quality ?

I can't -- still love my collection of Squeezeboxes, and am not tempted by the competition.

Complaints about Logitech, though, aren't surprising -- people miss Slim Devices and their singular focus on the product. Now the SB line is a little fish in a large pond of Logitech consumer devices, and there is concern (reasonable or not) about the future.

MichelleUK
2010-08-11, 03:45
Thanks for your input everyone.

I had naively thought that it would be relatively easy for Logitech to make the radio into a Boom - just add another speaker!

I shall get another radio for the time being - I love that little thing, best purchase I have made in years!

Regards,

Michelle

Philip Meyer
2010-08-11, 05:15
While I as an employee have not always been happy with what decisions were taken, your list of criticism isn't fair. And it's a very personal list of issues too. Let's look at it another way:

> 1. Unnecessarily changed the devices to linux computers to increase
> complexity that their company's programmers can't handle.

I agree with Michael here. There have been some strange decisions, but the developers appear to be doing a grand job with their hands tied by the new powers that be.

I think the change to linux embedded processors was inevitable. It *should* provide better functionality. I don't personally find Touch/Radio to be better devices; I still prefer my Transporter/Boom/SB3 devices to my Touch and Radio players. But there's hope that functionality and stability will improve.

But it's certainly not true that the company's programmers can't handle the change to linux - most of them have been developing on linux for years!

Philip Meyer
2010-08-11, 05:22
- Receiver based on SqueezeOS
What would be the point of that? Do you mean to run a Tiny SBS server?

peterw
2010-08-11, 06:26
What would be the point of [new Receiver based on SqueezeOS]? Do you mean to run a Tiny SBS server?

High(er)-res music playback, lower power consumption, tinysc, and ability to customize (including integration with amps & home automation systems) even when using MySB.

iPhone
2010-08-11, 08:45
What would be the point of that? Do you mean to run a Tiny SBS server?

I don't need TinySC in a Receiver II. How would one safely eject the USB Drive? From a new menu on the Controller, what if one doesn't have a Controller? TinySC on a Receiver II, no thank you.

I would like to see a Receiver II based on SqueezeOS because I think a 'Smart' player has advantages and it would be simple and direct to base Receiver II off of a striped down Touch. With the WiFi card eliminated because of WiFi on a chip, designing is easier. I would like to see the Receiver II be in a vertical case or have an external antenna option so it has better signal strength then all current Squeezeboxes since most Receivers are going to be hidden away. My reason for keeping the Receiver and updating it is first to have the newer DAC Chips and 24/96 native capability, but mostly so users can add multi-room players without the price of needing a Touch screen or controls. With the Controller, iPeng, and being able to control players from Touch and SB Radio, it just makes sense to me to have a Receiver II.

Receiver II could even be a base unit/docking station/charger for a Controller based on an iPad sized touch screen. This Controller would not have a DAC or be a player like the current Controller. It would just be a Touch Remote with IR, RF, and WiFi control capabilities so it could also be ones universal remote. I bought a Harmony 1000 so I could get rid of the 7 remotes I had on the table. That worked great and was heaven until I put a Receiver in the room, no IR control, so back to having a second remote, that being the Controller or iPeng. Where Receiver II would be sold separately or bundled with the large touch Remote.

Getting back on thread, I feel there will be a Boom II in the future with a Color display and SqueezeOS. Don't know how I feel about having a touch screen on a device that is mainly a player with speakers, probably just color LCD like SB Radio only larger. I don't think it would be coming anytime soon. The Boom is still selling well.

eganders
2010-08-11, 20:35
Given that we're already almost halfway through August 2010, I would not expect to see a "Boom 2" this year. Even though these forums are not the official voice of Logitech, there are enough knowledgeable people around here that I'm confident we'd have an idea if something was coming soon. The start of the 2010 Holiday season is only a couple months away. Since Squeeze products make great gifts, a new model doesn't seem likely before year's end.

I have no inside knowledge, but speculating on a Boom 2 in time for the 2011 holiday season might well be considered a reasoned bet. Wireless N was finally ratified this year, much improved DAC's are available inexpensively, Vfd display manufacturing has disappeared and is giving way to LCD's, and improved Squeeze server v.7.6 software, replete with some fundamental fixes, changes and improvements, is coming - hopefully soon (by years end???).

pfarrell
2010-08-11, 21:34
On 08/11/2010 11:35 PM, eganders wrote:
> Given that we're already almost halfway through August 2010, I would not
> expect to see a "Boom 2" this year. Even though these forums are not
> the official voice of Logitech, there are enough knowledgeable people
> around here that I'm confident we'd have an idea if something was
> coming soon. The 2010 Holiday season is only 4.5 months away, and
> Squeeze products make great gifts, so it doesn't seem likely this
> year.


For the retailers of the world, the 2010 holiday season starts in about
20 days. You can not release a product late in the year. The retailers
have their product lines set and on the shelves by late October, and
they are focused only on selling from then on until the new year. Most
retailer's purchasing folks won't talk to you after September 1.

I have no information, and if I had any, I could not share it. I was a
beta tester for the Boom and the Radio, and for each, I had to sign a
non-disclosure-agreement. I don't think I could even say that I had not
signed an NDA.

So there may be a product in late Beta-test now, I just don't know or
can't say.

Logitech continues the tradition of most electronic firms; they never
comment on future products. They only announce products when they are in
the warehouses and ready to sell. (The Touch was a special case
exception to that rule). So its pointless to speculate, those that know
are not talking, and those that are talking don't know.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

sander
2010-08-11, 21:40
The best precursor of what the future holds for Squeezebox is the how much integration there is with the new Google TV revue. Harmony is featured prominently whereas Squeezebox is only hinted at. To me this is the best indication of what Logitech thinks of the Squeezebox brand.

This would be the best indicator of how much resources they will continue to push, seeing as they need to hire new some new hardware developers and apparently retool (in the case of the receiver) to continue moving forward at all.

TiredLegs
2010-08-12, 03:45
Logitech continues the tradition of most electronic firms; they never comment on future products. They only announce products when they are in the warehouses and ready to sell.
Many electronics firms DO announce products before they are ready to ship. Typically, however, they only do so in a few specific situations: a) When the new products are likely to ward off products from competing companies (e.g. HP's Slate product, to compete with iPad.); or b) The company's own current products have a major problem selling (e.g. Windows Vista, which caused MS to preannounce Windows 7 by more than a year); or c) The most common case, to meet retailer buyers' set time frames for their holiday season orders. (For example, it's not unusual for products to get announced in July or August for shipment in September or October.); or d) A groundbreaking new product is on the way that wouldn't cannibalize sales of the company's own existing products . (In 2006, Slim Devices did pre-announce the Transporter by several months.)

The Squeezebox products don't currently fit those scenarios, so I wouldn't expect pre-announcements, but even companies that say they "never" do sometimes do.

maggior
2010-08-12, 06:09
Logitech continues the tradition of most electronic firms; they never
comment on future products. They only announce products when they are in
the warehouses and ready to sell.

This follows the sensible philosophy of "it's better to say "look what I've done" rather than "look at what I'm about to do".

An example of this in real life - this past weekend I was biking with my 6 year old and we were talking about mountain biking. When we got home, I said to her "watch this, I'll show you some mountain biking". I then proceded to ride my mountain bike over a stump in our back yard, no big deal really. Well, it shouldn't have been a big deal that is. With an attentive audience, I flipped my bike over (textbook endo!) and crashed hard...to the applause of my 6 and 3 year old kids! After I determined I didn't break or hyperextend anything, I explained how that wasn't quite what I planned to do.

The point is that when you say "look at what I'm doing" or "look at what I'm about to do", you may be setting your self up for an embarassing situation.

TiredLegs
2010-08-12, 08:42
The point is that when you say "look at what I'm doing" or "look at what I'm about to do", you may be setting your self up for an embarassing situation.
Yes, but when a company has already done something embarrassing, it may need to say, "look at what I'm about to do next," e.g. Windows Vista, as I mentioned in the prior post.

In the case of Squeezeboxes, Logitech's delays in releasing the Touch were embarrassing precisely because they kept saying "look at what I'm about to do next," but "next" didn't come around very quickly. If anything, the Touch situation might have made Logitech less likely to announce future new Squeezebox models before they really are ready to ship.

unclemat
2010-08-12, 19:36
Not much choices? There used to be two products (Classic, Transporter). Today there are five (Transporter, Duet, Radio, Touch, Boom).


Well, Transporter is discontinued, isn't it? So that would be four.

Just saying. The new line isn't bad, but I am partial to the "classic" I3k line, although I am relatively new to the product - been using it for less than one year. Started with Classic. Then tried a Radio last fall immediately when it was released, but it was a disaster, so I sent it back. Then bought two Booms, another Classic, a used SB2, and yesterday I bought a Transporter 2nd hand... AMAZING piece sound wise and the double VFD is just stunning.

Today I bought another Radio to evaluate and it is looking better, although I am still seeing issues. I am also considering adding a Touch, since my smaller kids can't quite master the Classic via the remote.

My only wish would be that the existing features aren't removed. For example inability to customize top level menu is sorta deal breaker with Radio/Touch. I know there is some work being done in 7.6 to change that but I am unhappy that these functions are not being made available in the server UI. Also the lack of global favorites and making favorites player specific in 7.4.x was a huge let down.

I think old timers (or people preferring legacy devices) will embrace the new line and stop bitching if: (1) they work reliably, (2) existing features are not taken away.

To end my random rambling - thank you for great work. These devices totally transformed how I (now we) listen to music. Much appreciated.