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View Full Version : 1000000 people for static IP support!



bstromberg1
2010-07-20, 17:08
Please reply here if you are sick of having to jump through a ton of hoops just to setup a static IP address (as in having to do a factory reset/disable DHCP on your router/mess with other router settings/login to devices with SSH/Telnet/Whatever in order to set an IP on ANY of the Squeezebox Devices). This is a MUST have feature for any device that is apart of a network as there are people that use static IPs that like to manage everything themselves, not worry about DHCP problems, and have specialized networks. I have yet to stubmle accross a device that doesn't have a simple menu to type in the address manually other than the Squeezebox series.

Logitech, could you PLEASE add a menu to edit your current network settings. This has been requested multiple times by many users!

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=7139
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=7502
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=72803
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=76329
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77625
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78014
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75388
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=74392
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=73619
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=71398
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=64647
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=62348

The list continues on forever! Here is the search query: http://forums.slimdevices.com/search.php?searchid=3960790

If you are sick of this problem, and sick of "Oh it will be added in the next release", please bump this thread up!

Thank you to everyone who supports this thread.
bstromberg1

TheRooster2000
2010-07-20, 17:12
+1

pski
2010-07-20, 17:49
Static in my house is not an issue.

I have ONE DHCP server.

Static is assigned on the SBS server.

Everything else works fine since a "previous" address is the first one requested under DHCP.

I have too many virtual machines and linux hardware variants to worry about where they live and feed.

P

aubuti
2010-07-20, 20:11
Please reply here if you are sick of having to jump through a ton of hoops just to setup a static IP address (as in having to do a factory reset/disable DHCP on your router/mess with other router settings/login to devices with SSH/Telnet/Whatever in order to set an IP on ANY of the Squeezebox Devices). .... I have yet to stubmle accross a device that doesn't have a simple menu to type in the address manually other than the Squeezebox series.
Your request isn't unreasonable, but your argument is. Hyperbole doesn't help your cause. Your first point about needing to ssh into "ANY" of the SB devices is simply wrong. Static IPs are easily set directly on the player menus of SB2, SB3/Classic, and Boom. They are probably settable on SliMP3, SB1, and TP as well, but I don't know for certain. On your latter point, it seems you've never stumbled onto a Palm Pilot or Blackberry.

For me the various methods currently available for setting a static IP are perfectly adequate -- even on the SBR, SBC, Radio, and Touch. I can see how some people would want it to be easier, but I can also think of enhancements that I believe deserve higher priority.

Mnyb
2010-07-20, 21:26
+1

I have to agree, that it is a major design flaw to not have static ip settings in any ethernet device, should not have passed alpha trails.
So it should not even be a bug for it.

Having said that, the device where this is really bad is the reciever, net::udap is not "perfectly adequate" for a consumer device .

SSH is that "perfectly adequate" for a consumer device ? maybe for linux and mac users, as you use any terminal for it, for windows user this is not "perfectly adequate" as you have to install third party software to be able to SSH, for example putty .

But SSH it's not hard to do and fulfills another glaring omission in the setup menu available in some products.
Namely that you can not simply edit the network-settings as you see fit, you have to reset the device and do the setup wizard again !? This is also an obvious design flaw, this is maybe the real problem as static ip is a special case of this.
But really it should be an advanced menu option on a squeezeplay product.

But as they missed these self evident things in the design phase ,and now they are with us as bugs, it is so that there is probably 100's off other bugs that's needs more attention than this.

Why ? a tinkering user can actually fix static ip settings with some workaround , some of the more serious problems can only be fixed by the developers.

But I'm all for real static ip support, as the OP wanted to collects such opinions in this tread. So my vote is added.

erland
2010-07-20, 22:12
+1

I have to agree, that it is a major design flaw to not have static ip settings in any ethernet device, should not have passed alpha trails.
So it should not even be a bug for it.

Doesn't it support static IP's if there isn't a DHCP srver available on the network?

While I'm not against this there are a lot of other bugs that's more important and with the limited amount of development resources Logitech has dedicated to Squeezebox development, it's important to prioritize the most important bugs. If development resources was unlimited or there wasn't a workaround, the situation would be different. People with static IP's knows what they are doing so some additional hassle should be acceptable.

aubuti
2010-07-20, 22:46
Having said that, the device where this is really bad is the reciever, net::udap is not "perfectly adequate" for a consumer device .

SSH is that "perfectly adequate" for a consumer device ? maybe for linux and mac users, as you use any terminal for it, for windows user this is not "perfectly adequate" as you have to install third party software to be able to SSH, for example putty .
As I wrote in my post, it is perfectly adequate for me. I'm not speaking for others, though I recognize that many want an easier way to set a static IP. If so, they can support/not support this thread as they see fit.

From my point of view there are other more pressing bugs and enhancements, such as customization of menus for SP-based players (beyond the simple "Home menu" options). As erland points out, development resources are finite, and I don't see this one as a priority, especially as there are reasonable workarounds available (especially for anyone with enough know-how to be setting static IPs).

Howard Passman
2010-07-21, 03:44
+1

at least for the SBC and SBR. As far as I know they are the only ones that you can't easily assign a static ip to. I don't have a Touch, but I do have all other devices from the SB3 up.

I use ssh to set my SBC, but it is still very inconvenient. For my SBR I use Flatterman's SqueezeConfig on my Droid. Still not convenient and a big oversight as far as I'm concerned.

I disagree about it being low priority considering how many folks have been tempted to throw their DUET system in the trash (based on a couple of years of daily forum threads). For some reason Logitech seems to be oblivious to that and the well worn SBC/player feature that is still in BETA.

Ah, well...I can't imagine this will be the thread that breaks the camels back so to speak.

Howard

Howard Passman
2010-07-21, 03:57
[QUOTE=... I have yet to stubmle accross a device that doesn't have a simple menu to type in the address manually other than the Squeezebox series.
[/QUOTE]

The Maraki access points are almost as bad, but they are the only other device I've run across that don't have a web ui or something as simple...

TheLastMan
2010-07-21, 10:59
+0.25(ish)


+1

...at least for the SBC and SBR. As far as I know they are the only ones that you can't easily assign a static ip to.

Actually since 7.5 it is pretty easy. Just turn off DHCP in your router and, after a minute or so trying to connect, the Controller will present you with the option to set the IP manually. With 7.3.3 and earlier it might have done this or it might not, it seemed to be pretty random and sometimes took two or three attempts to connect before it would give you the option.

Not sure about 7.4 as I only used it very briefly.

In order to set up a manual IP on the Receiver you need to go through a full factory reset of the Duet (Controller AND Receiever) with DHCP turned off, but it is still pretty simple and once it is done it sticks.

It is not the problem it once was, so probably does not deserve this kind of post. However I would like Logitech to put IP addressing on the advanced Settings menu of the Controller rather than relying on the user's knowledge of DHCP servers and their router firmware.

Incidentally, it is possible on a Blackberry. In fact you can set different static IPs for each Wi-Fi network you connect to. Not even Windows XP will let you do that!

Howard Passman
2010-07-21, 11:13
+0.25(ish)

Actually since 7.5 it is pretty easy. Just turn off DHCP in your router and, after a minute or so trying to connect, the Controller will present you with the option to set the IP manually.

I wasn't as lucky I guess. I just tried the whole addressing mess last week on my newest SBC running 7.5. Only got presented with the static addressing option one time out of many. Finally gave up and did the SSH thing. Much easier and had I started out that way, it might have been the fastest way to do it.

When it does get statically addressed, the DNS is never populated so the SSH way is the only way that actually works for me.

I wish I knew something about messing about in the firmware of the SBC. I bet there are some cool things one could do. Even maybe make it a better player.

Howard

Howard

aubuti
2010-07-21, 11:27
+0.25(ish)
<snip>
Incidentally, it is possible on a Blackberry. In fact you can set different static IPs for each Wi-Fi network you connect to. Not even Windows XP will let you do that!
I really like the +0.25(ish) idea. I'd go for that.

And thanks for correcting me about the Blackberry -- I wasn't looking at the right menus. Don't know when I'll ever want to use static IP on the BB, but it's good to have the facts straight anyway. Now to pull out my Palm T|X to see if I was wrong about that, too.

Friedl58
2010-07-21, 12:11
In order to set up a manual IP on the Receiver you need to go through a full factory reset of the Duet

You can use the Net::UDAP tool instead.
Works like a charm.

Or simply tell your router to give the desired IP to the MAC of the device.

bstromberg1
2010-07-21, 16:04
The argument here isn't that it is impossible to add a static IP. The argument is that it is difficult to do so. You guys against this thread have yet to post a method stating how to change the IP without having to shut off the device, SSH, use a third party tool, or messing with your router (which definitely isn't a good alternative if you are using the squeezebox in the business world). I wrote above that there should be a tool in the menu's that should allow this to be easily configured without having to jump through these hoops.

TheLastMan
2010-07-21, 17:36
When it does get statically addressed, the DNS is never populated so the SSH way is the only way that actually works for me.

Typically frustrating and inconsistent behaviour from the SqueezeBox then. Due to some fiddling about I was doing with my network I had to fix the IP on the Controller once and I did that by turning off DHCP in the Router. The controller did not get an IP and I was presented with a menu that asked me if I wanted to set an IP manually. It asked for the IP, subnet mask, gateway IP and DNS server IP.

One of my Receivers was "fixed" using Net:UDAP and the other using the factory reset without DHCP - the latter being the much quicker and easier option. Both work fine and both have retained their fixed IPs.

On that basis I guessed the "no DHCP" trick was now working predictably. Seems I guessed wrong!

Not sure what you mean about the DNS never being populated. When it asks me for the DNS address I put in the IP of my Router and that works fine. I have to do this as my ISP requires me to leave the DNS server choice in the Router on "automatic".

pski
2010-07-21, 17:52
1. I don't mean Intellectual Property.

2. Point your wireless router at the "gateway address" when only 1 pc is connected to the internet. (This means the PC is connected directly to the "modem." TO get this working call your DSl/Cable internet provider.)

To see your gateway in winders: open a command box and type

ipconfig

then ENTER

3. turn-off DHCP on all wireless routers. Leave DHCP on on your "modem" device.

Also: if you find an option that says "GATEWAY"," it's a good selection unless you know what a ROUTER does.

Logitech does not attempt to insulate users from issues everyone knows about: ONLY 1 DHCP ROUTER per HOME NETWORK and it SHOULD BE the stuff you get from your vendor.

P

aubuti
2010-07-21, 20:35
The argument here isn't that it is impossible to add a static IP. The argument is that it is difficult to do so. You guys against this thread have yet to post a method stating how to change the IP without having to shut off the device, SSH, use a third party tool, or messing with your router (which definitely isn't a good alternative if you are using the squeezebox in the business world). I wrote above that there should be a tool in the menu's that should allow this to be easily configured without having to jump through these hoops.
1. Use a SB, SB2, SB3/Classic, Transporter, or Boom. All of them have simple menus for configuring static IPs right on the player menus. No shutting off the device, no ssh, no third party nothing.

2. If you are "using the squeezebox in the business world" (whatever you mean by that), then what's so scary about ssh, net::udap, or temporarily turning off DHCP on the router?

3. I never said anything was wrong with the enhancement request. I simply don't see it as a high priority. There are 44 votes on bugzilla for Bug 7502 that disagree with me, which makes it one of the higher vote totals among unresolved bugs. Maybe you think it's difficult to configure a static IP, that's fine. But I think it's nearly impossible for a user to find a workaround for my pet bug/enhancement (Bug 14004 (http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14004)), which I think has much wider implications than static IP (but only 41 votes). Therefore I think that deserves more attention. I'm not against your recommendation, I'm just not strongly in favor of it either.

Mr. Resistor
2010-07-21, 21:05
+1 for making it easier. With 11 devices, it's a little tedious having to go into my router and assign static IP as I slowly add more devices.

Mnyb
2010-07-21, 21:45
+1 for making it easier. With 11 devices, it's a little tedious having to go into my router and assign static IP as I slowly add more devices.

This is not static adressing, this method still uses DHCP, but the devices get the same IP from the DHCP server (usually the router) every time the lease goes out .

The idea is to avoid the possible buggy DHCP implementation in the squeezeboxes and the router .

And at least the controller seems to reconnect to the network much faster this way .


Ok, I did agree that there probably is 100's of more important bugs/features to fix first for example sbs's inability to handle non english charsets in some circumstances . And the menu reordering etc,
and lots of stuff the Touch don't have, that existed on the SB3 etc etc.

The mystery to me is the weird design choices re networking done by the developers, in this case they don't make much sense to me . It is clearly deliberately designed this way ? As bugs I understands why they won't get fixed, it "works" anyway no showstopper.But during the initial design phase why make these strange decisions to make the product so cumbersome.

1. Static or DHCP should be a Q that pops up in the setup wizard.

2. Why do you have to "forget" the whole network in a squeezeplay player to change something, why can't I edit for example my IP or DNS etc for that network.

3. choosing static or dhcp IP would be a subset of this, if you could edit the settings off your existing network .

4. It should also be possible to edit a single network parameter on a reciever from the controller or sbs , this is also an old bug one can vote on .

5. The controller was designed without any good roaming possibilities, which i don't suffer, but is essential in a big house to use the product at all .

6. Not even the never products can remember more than 1 network (the old ones are well old, I don't expect that)

Edit: from the top of my head, there is probably more to say about it than these 6 issues i pointed at

erland
2010-07-22, 00:26
Could someone describe to me why this is important to non technical users who don't have the knowledge to use the workaround ?

Could you also describe why you care what IP address the Squeezebox have ?

All my non technical friends who bye a router use DHCP and never care what IP address their devices have. For more advanced users that actually care, mostly just configure a fixed IP in the router for a specific MAC address.

I'm not against adding support for configuring static IP's as long as it doesn't result in other more important bugs and enhancements gets postponed or never fixed. Unfortunately, Logitech have decided to dedicate just a few developers to the Squeezebox development and due to this fixing enhancements like static IP's will result in that other stuff isn't implemented. Historically, a lot of complaints in the forum for geeky stuff like this has often resulted in that it got prioritized just to silence the crowd, with the result that there is no time to implement stuff that would enhance the Squeezebox products as a music listening device for the mass market or music lovers. I know it's not really our responsibility to think about things like this, I just get a bit frustrated when major enhancements never gets priority because Logitech sometimes (IMHO) puts too much focus on stuff that won't enhance the music listening experience.

I should say that I personally use static IP's on some of my devices in my local network. The only reason I do so is because I want to be able to access these devices through SSH or some similar protocol and then I need to know their address. For the Squeezeboxes I've just solved this by configuring a fixed IP in the DHCP server configuration in the router. For some other devices I use real static IP's because there are limitations how many fixed IP's the cheap router I have can handle.

If there is some issue where the system stops working if the IP address is changed by the DHCP server, that issue should be solved instead of forcing the user to setup a static IP.

TheLastMan
2010-07-22, 04:28
Could someone describe to me why this is important to non technical users who don't have the knowledge to use the workaround ?

Could you also describe why you care what IP address the Squeezebox have ?


The obvious reason really. Quite often my Controller and Receivers failed to get an IP from my router using DHCP, either allocated by MAC or completely "dynamic".

Fixing the IP address properly meant that not only did my Controller and Receivers have a working IP address the instant they were powered on, but they also boot up in a few seconds rather than minutes.

All in all it has made my whole Squeezebox system more reliable, quicker to start and more responsive in use.

The problems appeared to occur regardless of which of my three Routers I happened to have connected. Either it is a common router problem or it is a problem with the Duet DHCP client. Anyway, having static IPs fixes the problem.

Since discovering the benefits with SqueezeBox devices I now fix the IP address on all my networked devices, including my Blackberry!

The one issue that inexperienced users will have is that they will have to dig into the more obscure sections of their Router's firmware to remove some IP addresses from the DHCP pool in order that they are made available for fixed use (to avoid conflicts).

I find, however, that Routers have a tendency to use contiguous IP addresses in sequence as each new device is added, such as 192.168.001.003, 192.168.001.004, 192.168.001.005 and so on. This means there is rarely a conflict if the user sets his fixed IP addresses some distance away from the DHCP allocated ones. For instance if the DHCP is using 003,004,005 - then you can safely set fixed IP addresses in the range 103,104,105 etc.

Edit: Although I thought the "workaround" of disabling DHCP temporarily was reliable, Howard Passman still finds that this sometimes does not work. I consider myself reasonably geeky - but I have failed to get to grips with SSH and Putty and find Net:UDAP a real pain. So without a simple menu option, or at least reliable workaround, setting up a static IP is not easy or quick, even for the geeks among us.

erland
2010-07-22, 04:43
The obvious reason really. Quite often my Controller and Receivers failed to get an IP from my router using DHCP, either allocated by MAC or completely "dynamic".

Fixing the IP address properly meant that not only did my Controller and Receivers have a working IP address the instant they were powered on, but they also boot up in a few seconds rather than minutes.


Then we should try to get Logitech to correct so it reliably and fast gets an address from the DHCP server instead of forcing users to use static IP's when they shouldn't have to. I'm guessing someone already has registered a bug for this at http://bugs.slimdevices.com, if there isn't one someone that have the problem should register one with as much information as possible so Logitech can prioritize it and schedule it for a future firmware release.

If it takes minutes to get an IP from a DHCP server something is seriously wrong.

peterw
2010-07-22, 05:50
Then we should try to get Logitech to correct so it reliably and fast gets an address from the DHCP server instead of forcing users to use static IP's when they shouldn't have to.
...
If it takes minutes to get an IP from a DHCP server something is seriously wrong.

And devices like an iPhone (or Controller?) that request/renew leases frequently suffer the most. DHCP bugs can be tough to track down (even folks who know what they're doing are often hampered by limitations like wireless adapters that don't allow promiscuous mode and can't capture packets with wireshark), so making it easier to switch to static IP sounds like a relatively simple workaround for Logitech. Also, who wants to wait for a bug fix? Both my Controllers (using older versions of SBS) were unreliable until I gave one a static IP. Newer Controller firmwares are said to have some DHCP fixes, but I didn't want to wait for a "proper" fix since a static address was good enough. Using a static IP means less code running on the Squeezebox, which can only help. And what happens if Logitech decides the DHCP server embedded in a wifi access point is at fault? Logitech can't fix that, but static IP would be a good workaround.

erland
2010-07-22, 06:54
Logitech can't fix that, but static IP would be a good workaround.


For which type of users ?
I'm pretty sure it's the same type of users that is able to use the current workaround which already exists.

Using static IP's isn't a solution for the rest who is barely able setup their router with DHCP and connect the network cables correctly. I'm just trying to say that if we want to improve the current situation, we should focus on improving it for non technical users who aren't able to use the already existing workaround. Adding more advanced settings which only advanced users understand doesn't help the kind of non technical users which I suspect Logitech wants to be able to use the device, we really need to start thinking about making this device less geeky instead of more.

Several of my friends wouldn't have clue what IP address to enter when prompted for it. A DHCP solution on the other hand means that it's basically plug and play. Yes, I understand that DHCP would still be the preferred choice when setting up the device. My concerns is more about the fact that this will use development time which could be used for something related to the music listening experience and it would still not be usable for the main target group of the Squeezebox devices.

By the way, isn't the existing workaround something you do once for each new Squeezebox and then can forget ? Or does is have to be re-applied after each firmware upgrade? If it's a one time configuration I really doesn't understand why it's a big issue.

I should say that I'm not regularly using my Duet so I might be missing something here, but to me it really feels like we are just requesting another workaround that still wouldn't work for non technical users,

TheLastMan
2010-07-22, 08:44
For which type of users ?
I'm pretty sure it's the same type of users that is able to use the current workaround which already exists.

Using static IP's isn't a solution for the rest who is barely able setup their router with DHCP and connect the network cables correctly. I'm just trying to say that if we want to improve the current situation, we should focus on improving it for non technical users who aren't able to use the already existing workaround. Adding more advanced settings which only advanced users understand doesn't help the kind of non technical users which I suspect Logitech wants to be able to use the device, we really need to start thinking about making this device less geeky instead of more.

Several of my friends wouldn't have clue what IP address to enter when prompted for it. A DHCP solution on the other hand means that it's basically plug and play. Yes, I understand that DHCP would still be the preferred choice when setting up the device. My concerns is more about the fact that this will use development time which could be used for something related to the music listening experience and it would still not be usable for the main target group of the Squeezebox devices.

By the way, isn't the existing workaround something you do once for each new Squeezebox and then can forget ? Or does is have to be re-applied after each firmware upgrade? If it's a one time configuration I really doesn't understand why it's a big issue.

I should say that I'm not regularly using my Duet so I might be missing something here, but to me it really feels like we are just requesting another workaround that still wouldn't work for non technical users,
Very good points and I don't disagree generally, however a couple of points are worth emphasising:

- Not all DHCP problems are caused by the SqueezeBox (it may be the Router), so trying to fix potential issues with an improved Controller firmware is only part of the solution. Setting a fixed IP for the Controller is a simple and effective workaround for both SqueezeBox and router DHCP problems and would take up a very great deal less Developer time than trying to make the Controller DHCP client compatible with all DHCP server implementations.

- DHCP issues have been an ongoing sore point for both the Duet devices ever since I started following these forums in 2008. If they have not fixed them by now I doubt if they ever will.

- The workarounds are not reliable. They work for some and not for others. There are plenty of people out there who could fill out an IP address configuration page easily enough but would have real trouble using SSH/Putty or Net:UDAP

- The Controller and Receiver already have a way to enter a manual IP! However currently it only appears if the Controller fails to find an IP by DHCP, and then only intermittently and unpredictably. Would it really take up so much Developer time to simply add a link to that already existing routine in the Settings/Advanced menu?

- What is particularly exasperating is that it is already an option in the Boom and Classic menus. Why was it not implemented in the Controller?

TheLastMan
2010-07-22, 09:19
Forgot to answer this question:


For which type of users ?
By the way, isn't the existing workaround something you do once for each new Squeezebox and then can forget ? Or does is have to be re-applied after each firmware upgrade? If it's a one time configuration I really doesn't understand why it's a big issue.
In an ideal world you would be right. Provided somebody could get one of the workarounds to work and fix the IP you would not need to change it again.

However, there are lots of other issues with the Duet where part of the recommended fix, or even part of a diagnostic process, is to carry out a "factory reset" which (of course) wipes any fixed IP address data. In fact a Tier 1 Logitech support guy once asked me to do that almost as his first suggestion when I had an issue with some menu items not appearing.

This really is not as minor a point as you think, and an easy way to fix the IP address would also give Logitech support an easy way to make their hardware work with a diverse range of other networking equipment, regardless of where the fault lay.

Three of the four routers I have tried have suffered from DHCP problems, but none have had any trouble working with a device with a fixed IP address. It really is the simplest way to fix a wide variety of networking problems.

bstromberg1
2010-07-22, 11:41
1. Use a SB, SB2, SB3/Classic, Transporter, or Boom. All of them have simple menus for configuring static IPs right on the player menus. No shutting off the device, no ssh, no third party nothing.

2. If you are "using the squeezebox in the business world" (whatever you mean by that), then what's so scary about ssh, net::udap, or temporarily turning off DHCP on the router?

3. I never said anything was wrong with the enhancement request. I simply don't see it as a high priority. There are 44 votes on bugzilla for Bug 7502 that disagree with me, which makes it one of the higher vote totals among unresolved bugs. Maybe you think it's difficult to configure a static IP, that's fine. But I think it's nearly impossible for a user to find a workaround for my pet bug/enhancement (Bug 14004 (http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14004)), which I think has much wider implications than static IP (but only 41 votes). Therefore I think that deserves more attention. I'm not against your recommendation, I'm just not strongly in favor of it either.

1. I own a touch, SBC, and duet, I still don't want to have to jump through any hoops. My Duet is a disaster to setup a static IP, followed by the touch, followed by the SBC. It is easy to setup the IP on the SBC, however if you unplug the SBC you have to

2. Again, you have to jump through a hoop. Also, go to your work tomorrow and ask your IT director to turn off DHCP so you can give you SB a static IP. I am sure he would love to do that.

3. From what I gather, it looks like this has been requested many times as well as been pushed off by SB developers many times. I would prefer managing the device over some feature like Facebook or Twitter. (Btw those bug reports were from 2008!)

peterw
2010-07-22, 13:50
My concerns is more about the fact that this will use development time which could be used for something related to the music listening experience

I don't see how you think it would take less developer time to "to correct so it reliably and fast gets an address from the DHCP server" with all possible DHCP setups (especially if the DHCP server is what's slow) than to expose a currently hidden static IP configuration screen.

I'm not voting for the bug, basically for aubuti's reasons. There are workarounds available for this (and somebody could publish a patch or applet for this), while other bugs can only be addressed by Logitech.

-Peter

aubuti
2010-07-22, 13:56
1. I own a touch, SBC, and duet, I still don't want to have to jump through any hoops. My Duet is a disaster to setup a static IP, followed by the touch, followed by the SBC. It is easy to setup the IP on the SBC, however if you unplug the SBC you have to

2. Again, you have to jump through a hoop. Also, go to your work tomorrow and ask your IT director to turn off DHCP so you can give you SB a static IP. I am sure he would love to do that.

3. From what I gather, it looks like this has been requested many times as well as been pushed off by SB developers many times. I would prefer managing the device over some feature like Facebook or Twitter. (Btw those bug reports were from 2008!)
Well, as Edward R. Murrow said: Good night, and good luck.

erland
2010-07-22, 14:21
I don't see how you think it would take less developer time to "to correct so it reliably and fast gets an address from the DHCP server" with all possible DHCP setups (especially if the DHCP server is what's slow) than to expose a currently hidden static IP configuration screen.

I don't, I was trying to say that doing nothing takes less development time than adding full support for configuring static IPs.

Getting the DHCP client to work correctly would of course take more time but it would result in a working solution also for non technical users. I just think that if Logitech should do something they should primary focus on a solution that will be usable by the users that doesn't have the knowledge to use the already existing workaround.

Speebs
2010-07-22, 15:13
I don't, I was trying to say that doing nothing takes less development time than adding full support for configuring static IPs.

Getting the DHCP client to work correctly would of course take more time but it would result in a working solution also for non technical users. I just think that if Logitech should do something they should primary focus on a solution that will be usable by the users that doesn't have the knowledge to use the already existing workaround.

They should do both. Exposing the currently hidden IP setting screen is possibly the lowest hanging fruit there is, since it's already completely implemented. It just needs to be added to the settings menu.

I am deathly afraid of having to reset my receiver because of how flaky it can be (whether or not it wants to show me the ethernet/static IP options). I would like to know that those options are always going to be available (at any point, not just after a reset) without having to rely on pure luck. There should NEVER be anything in the initial setup that isn't accessible after setup is complete.

JohnSwenson
2010-07-22, 15:32
In the last month I've been having major problems with DHCP, on everything wireless, laptops, squeezeboxen, phones, everything. With several different routers, from different companies, and on several different networks I frequent.

Its gotten so bad I put static IPs on everything in my house, which fixes the local problem, but doesn't work when you take a laptop to a different network.

The only thing I can come up with is that wifi interference is getting so bad that the default timeouts for DHCP negotiation are too short and things just give up.

The last holdout was an SB3 that has been working on WiFi for years finally refused to connect and my wife was ready to take a sledge hammer to it. Going to static fixed the problem and it runs fine now.

Given that everything wireless that I have has been experiencing these problems I don't think its necessarily a squeezebox issue.

John S.

pski
2010-07-22, 18:04
In the last month I've been having major problems with DHCP, on everything wireless, laptops, squeezeboxen, phones, everything. With several different routers, from different companies, and on several different networks I frequent.

Its gotten so bad I put static IPs on everything in my house, which fixes the local problem, but doesn't work when you take a laptop to a different network.

The only thing I can come up with is that wifi interference is getting so bad that the default timeouts for DHCP negotiation are too short and things just give up.

The last holdout was an SB3 that has been working on WiFi for years finally refused to connect and my wife was ready to take a sledge hammer to it. Going to static fixed the problem and it runs fine now.

Given that everything wireless that I have has been experiencing these problems I don't think its necessarily a squeezebox issue.

John S.

Here Here!

If you are in a congested WIFI location, the best thing to do is to adopt a "non-traditional" IP address for your router:

Most "traditional" routers" start with 192.168"

In reality, you can use any address you want for your "internal" network since it is never seen by the "outside world."

Change your DHCP router parameters to whatever you want. So long as your "Gateway" address points to your DSL/cable modem.

Secondly, see other posts concerning channel selection (other than the defaults.)

P

snarlydwarf
2010-07-22, 19:44
\
In reality, you can use any address you want for your "internal" network since it is never seen by the "outside world."

Change your DHCP router parameters to whatever you want. So long as your "Gateway" address points to your DSL/cable modem.

Unless you happen to choose a network that happens to be in use on the real Internet especially if you have reason to connect to it.

There are many many reserved networks to choose from: use one of the 16 million /24's hiding in net-10. do not just make up network numbers or you will find that at the worst possible moment you won't be able to visit some site.

peterw
2010-07-22, 20:21
If you are in a congested WIFI location, the best thing to do is to adopt a "non-traditional" IP address for your router

Why is that?

Eric Seaberg
2010-07-26, 08:57
... or replace your router with something more 'user friendly'.

My router allows me to assign a static IP to anything on my network once it sees its MAC address connect. The device remains in DHCP mode, but the router is 'smart' enough to see it and assign a pre-determined address. I've got two SB3s and a Transporter connected this way and have never had issues with drifting addresses.

erland
2010-07-26, 15:12
... or replace your router with something more 'user friendly'.

My router allows me to assign a static IP to anything on my network once it sees its MAC address connect. The device remains in DHCP mode, but the router is 'smart' enough to see it and assign a pre-determined address. I've got two SB3s and a Transport connected this way and have never had issues with drifting addresses.

As I've understood, the issue isn't that you get a different IP address, the issue is that you aren't able to retrieve an IP address from the DHCP server. Due to this, I suspect it probably doesn't help to configure a fixed IP in the router, the Squeezebox would still not be able to communicate with the DHCP server to get it.

Eric Seaberg
2010-07-26, 20:36
Well, I've been doing it this way for over 3-years... but if you say it won't work then I must be mistaken.

erland
2010-07-26, 21:29
Well, I've been doing it this way for over 3-years... but if you say it won't work then I must be mistaken.

Have you ever seen any DHCP problem in your setup?

TheLastMan
2010-07-27, 03:19
Well, I've been doing it this way for over 3-years... but if you say it won't work then I must be mistaken.
The problem is everybody's experiences with this are different.

It depends on the Router you are using and the layout of your network. It seems as if some of us in areas which are very congested with wireless networks can have more problems.

I can now see about 12 different networks from my house. Most now are 802.11n which tends to stomp on any other wireless network in the vicinity. Because of this I think part of the problem I have is network "noise" and interference. Both my neighbours now have a "BT Home Hub" which is an ISP specific "n" wireless Router. Now I know that they broadcast over multiple channels, but one shows up as on Channel 1 and the other on channel 12, both at 100%.

To get over this I have added a (probably illegal) 500mw signal booster to one of my Access Points broadcasting on Channel 6 which can cut through this mush and I now get a decent and clean signal at each SqueezeBox. I also have a parabolic reflector on the antenna making it directional so it should not interfere too much with my neighbours networks. I have tried HomePlug AV, but my wiring and sockets are not good enough to support it.

The reason WiFi is so prominent in my area is that the houses are all around 105 years old and have both external and some internal solid brick walls (no cavity) as well as fitted carpets or wood laminate flooring. Consequently the cost and mess involved in laying Ethernet cable makes it prohibitively expensive and disruptive.

Eric Seaberg
2010-07-27, 19:40
Have you ever seen any DHCP problem in your setup?

Never! Even after a power outage and/or everything being reset, all DHCP devices come back to their preset IP address from the router. Basically, the router gives them static addresses, but the devices remain in DHCP. If I delete the MAC address from the router setup, then the device does, in fact, get an address within the DHCP range.

I started doing this with all of the computers in the house so it would be easy to remotely mount hard-drives between them all. I figured it'd be easy to do the same with all the Slim devices as well as my wireless base stations. It keeps house-keeping VERY simple.

peterw
2010-07-27, 20:33
Never! Even after a power outage and/or everything being reset, all DHCP devices come back to their preset IP address from the router. Basically, the router gives them static addresses, but the devices remain in DHCP.

Please, those are not "static IPs," they're "DHCP reservations." I think the fact that your DHCP setup is rock solid disqualifies you from voting on this issue. :-)

Eric Seaberg
2010-07-27, 20:47
Please, those are not "static IPs," they're "DHCP reservations." I think the fact that your DHCP setup is rock solid disqualifies you from voting on this issue. :-)

According to the router, they are static assigned IPs based on the MAC address of the device. Attached is a png file showing all of my devices as static.

My SlimServer is 10.0.0.10 and my Slim players are assigned 192.168.1.11, 12 & 13.

aubuti
2010-07-27, 20:59
Your router may call them static IPs, but they don't fit the usual definition of static IP, which is something that is coded into the client. They are "reserved" addresses or sometimes the confusing "static DHCP". The difference, as others have pointed out, is that your approach requires DHCP to be working on both the client and server ends, and true static IPs don't require DHCP at all.

It works for you because your router's DHCP server and the DHCP clients in your various devices work as they should. It works for me, too, and a lot of other people. But that's not the case for everyone.

Mnyb
2010-07-27, 21:09
Your router may call them static IPs, but they don't fit the usual definition of static IP, which is something that is coded into the client. They are "reserved" addresses or sometimes the confusing "static DHCP". The difference, as others have pointed out, is that your approach requires DHCP to be working on both the client and server ends, and true static IPs don't require DHCP at all.

It works for you because your router's DHCP server and the DHCP clients in your various devices work as they should. It works for me, too, and a lot of other people. But that's not the case for everyone.

Exactly, it will even work without the router with static ip in the clients in some cases, example my server and boom is connected via the same switch in my network so even if the router goes down it will still function (for local files).
DHCP leases can go wrong i run my system static since the sb3, when I noticed how much faster it picked up the network etc.

sendermen
2010-11-22, 02:23
Enter incorrect or outdated network information and there is NO WAY to reconnect to the network again. Factory reset.

reniera
2010-11-22, 03:12
+1

kantblue
2010-11-22, 03:50
+1 for me too.

I've had very little trouble since using the UDap tool to set my system to static IP addressing.

IMHO the Duet especially has some serious issues when being used with a DHCP server which may be exacerbated when used with different brands of router.

Its difficult to pinpoint the nature of the problem, but adding a static menu to the setup is, I would think, extremely easy to fix and I find it really frustrating that this hasn't been done.

I tried all the usual tricks - assigning by mac address, disabling DHCP services to try to get to the fabled Static IP Setup on my duet receiver, but I only ever saw it once, I have no idea why it appeared and I've not seen it since!

I can honestly say that if it wasn't for the UDap tool, I would have abandoned the whole Squeezebox system and gone for something else.

It's one of the reasons why when people see how my setup works, I point them in the direction of the Sonos system LOL! (but serious point nonetheless).

kantblue

Pascal Hibon
2010-11-22, 04:52
Enter incorrect or outdated network information and there is NO WAY to reconnect to the network again. Factory reset.

That is also the only remark I have. The devices should at least provide all network settings through the menus (both wireless and Ethernet). If for some reason the user mistyped something (example, the WPA pre shared key) during initial setup in the wizard then it is difficult to correct that typo in the wizard.

Other than that, I have never had any issues with my DHCP setup in my network. Most of my devices are DHCP because it is easy to setup stuff on the network. Only backbone devices (Access Points, switches, routers, etc) have a static IP address for ease of network maintenance. All my Squeezeboxes are DHCP.

Letten
2010-11-22, 05:04
If You know what "real" static IP's are and how to set them up, then you should also know how to use the different tools available to do this on the squeezeboxes.

Exposing "complex" network settings (in an already complex product) would risk that non-technical users (wich is the vast majority) run into to problems by accident or while trying to resolve network issues that should be handled elsewhere.

I guess one in 10.000 customers ever run into this need and I guess it's best fixed at the router - find out why DHCP doesn't work and fixit there not in the squezzeboxes.

I've had my share of network problems in the past. In the beginning I thought it was because of my new Squeezebox but it turned out that it was a bad combination of old Router firmware and a new Vista laptop I bought for SBS. Having easy access to the "complex" network settings as has been suggested here would probably have ment that it would have taken me even more time to figure out where the real problem was (Vista/Router).

Mnyb
2010-11-22, 05:54
All squeezeproduct should provide static setup anyway imho.

This is quite normal to use static IP on stuff that is in a fixed installation.

+1

I can get that they won't fix it for older product's but static ip support is also missing on Touch and Radio !! wich is very very weird they must know that there is a lot of users that want's this ?

praganj
2010-11-22, 06:19
+1

Letten
2010-11-22, 06:21
All squeezeproduct should provide static setup anyway imho.

This is quite normal to use static IP on stuff that is in a fixed installation.


Define Normal!

How many percent of households (that have a LAN) do You think messes about with statis IP's vs using plain DHCP?

My guess would be less than 1%.

The use of static IP's in Home networks is definately not the norm.

garym
2010-11-22, 06:32
Define Normal!

How many percent of households (that have a LAN) do You think messes about with statis IP's vs using plain DHCP?

My guess would be less than 1%.

The use of static IP's in Home networks is definately not the norm.

Agree! Most users don't even know what LAN, DHCP, or IP even mean. Based on a small sample of my family members, they don't have a clue as to how their home network even works. If not for me, they wouldn't even have wifi security.

MrSinatra
2010-11-22, 08:23
i don't think the "average" user is who uses slim stuff.

i also think more than 1% of home networks use either static, or DHCP reservations (which is similar). now, maybe only 3-4% ...idk. but i bet that percentage is around 25% for slim users, who aren't your avg user.

garym
2010-11-22, 09:29
i don't think the "average" user is who uses slim stuff.

agree that slim stuff is not your average user. my earlier point was referring to average user of a home network (cable modem and wifi router) in general, not SB users.

Letten
2010-11-22, 09:58
i don't think the "average" user is who uses slim stuff.

i also think more than 1% of home networks use either static, or DHCP reservations (which is similar). now, maybe only 3-4% ...idk. but i bet that percentage is around 25% for slim users, who aren't your avg user.

Static IP is inherently different from DHCP reservation and much more difficult for non-tech users to setup (SB user or not).

I think people in these forums sometimes forget whats happening "outside in the normal world" :-)

Since Logitech took over slimdevices, Squeezeboxes are being sold in a lot of retail stores, previously it could be ordered from a few internet stores. From the 6 friends I have that use Squeezeboxes, I'm the only one who use these forums (I admit I'm a SB geek). The others now nothing about router setup or Wifi security for that matter. I really doubt they use IP reservation not to mention static IPs.

We are not the usual SB users any more and we are not the main concern when Logitech makes software development decisions and we are not the ones paying the developers salleries.

Mnyb
2010-11-22, 10:32
My point is why omitting a function normal network capable stuff have ?
Your PC can easily be set to static ip without turning of the DCHP .

It's a part of the spec simple as that .

It is not complicated or difficult to do on a PC for example .

It is somewhat more arcane on squeezeboxes due the omitting of this standard feature, you then have to fudge with your router conect to directly to a PC use net::udap and ssh onto to stuff and edit files . This is weird and consumer unfriendly. A simple straightforward network setup with a choice of static ip is not.

The setup wizard also needs improvement

Pascal Hibon
2010-11-22, 11:39
My point is why omitting a function normal network capable stuff have ?
Your PC can easily be set to static ip without turning of the DCHP .

It's a part of the spec simple as that .

It is not complicated or difficult to do on a PC for example .

It is somewhat more arcane on squeezeboxes due the omitting of this standard feature, you then have to fudge with your router conect to directly to a PC use net::udap and ssh onto to stuff and edit files . This is weird and consumer unfriendly. A simple straightforward network setup with a choice of static ip is not.

The setup wizard also needs improvement

Exactly right.
It doesn’t matter who this product is targeted to. All network devices have these setup capabilities. Logitech can keep the setup wizard. It just needs a bit of tweaking and even with the wizard, Logitech can add the menus. Best of both worlds: users who don’t know anything about networks simply follow the wizard. More advanced users can dive into the menus if the want.

Letten
2010-11-22, 11:57
All network devices have these setup capabilities

Well Sonos doesn't either ;-)

Although it's a network device i Guess they are trying to make it behave more like an appliance. So keep it as simple as possible.

kantblue
2010-11-22, 14:14
I completely agree that using DHCP should make the slim devices easy to setup for non-techy people, but this is only if it actually WORKS.

I would imagine there are a number of non-tech people out there who have simply returned their Duets or Radio's because they simply didn't work out of the box.

I would happily use the DHCP functions of my slimdevices (especially the Duet) if it actually worked - but the point is that for me - and many others on this forum, it doesn't.

I wonder if any figures are available to compare the number of units sold VS users on these forums. I suspect that most users, and especially the non-techy ones, are unlikely to come here for advice and are much more likely to return non-functional squeezeboxes back to purchase source.

At least if there was simple way to setup static addresses, technical support could always talk users through setup.

Kantblue

pski
2010-11-22, 18:10
I completely agree that using DHCP should make the slim devices easy to setup for non-techy people, but this is only if it actually WORKS.

I would imagine there are a number of non-tech people out there who have simply returned their Duets or Radio's because they simply didn't work out of the box.

I would happily use the DHCP functions of my slimdevices (especially the Duet) if it actually worked - but the point is that for me - and many others on this forum, it doesn't.

I wonder if any figures are available to compare the number of units sold VS users on these forums. I suspect that most users, and especially the non-techy ones, are unlikely to come here for advice and are much more likely to return non-functional squeezeboxes back to purchase source.

At least if there was simple way to setup static addresses, technical support could always talk users through setup.

Kantblue

My cat often tells me to get a life.

Of course DHCP works.

Just not when people have more than one DHCP device on their network at the same time (and they aren't cooperating.)

Got a bet on the "retard proof" routers from cisco?

P

dsdreamer
2010-11-22, 21:38
Here is what one company did on a very well accepted consumer product... (3rd option after BootP, is Static IP). Of course, this makes the iPhone way too complicated to the point of being unusable for the average consumer... ;-)

MrSinatra
2010-11-22, 21:40
agree that slim stuff is not your average user. my earlier point was referring to average user of a home network (cable modem and wifi router) in general, not SB users.

i understood what you meant, i wasn't contradicting you.


Static IP is inherently different from DHCP reservation and much more difficult for non-tech users to setup (SB user or not).

in some ways, yes its different, but in other ways its similar. not my point. my point was that i think more people use "other than straight forward dhcp" than you seem to think. i said maybe 3-4%, and i also said idk. but i am sure its MORE than 1%.

given that slim users aren't the avg user, i'd be willing to bet at least 20% of slim users use other than straight forward dhcp as well, and that was my other point.


I think people in these forums sometimes forget whats happening "outside in the normal world" :-)

Since Logitech took over slimdevices, Squeezeboxes are being sold in a lot of retail stores, previously it could be ordered from a few internet stores. From the 6 friends I have that use Squeezeboxes, I'm the only one who use these forums (I admit I'm a SB geek). The others now nothing about router setup or Wifi security for that matter. I really doubt they use IP reservation not to mention static IPs.

We are not the usual SB users any more and we are not the main concern when Logitech makes software development decisions and we are not the ones paying the developers salleries.

you should ask them. but even if what you say is true, its not the norm. a lot of users use some form of encryption, and know SOMETHING about ip addys.


My point is why omitting a function normal network capable stuff have ?
Your PC can easily be set to static ip without turning of the DCHP .

It's a part of the spec simple as that .

It is not complicated or difficult to do on a PC for example .

It is somewhat more arcane on squeezeboxes due the omitting of this standard feature, you then have to fudge with your router conect to directly to a PC use net::udap and ssh onto to stuff and edit files . This is weird and consumer unfriendly. A simple straightforward network setup with a choice of static ip is not.

The setup wizard also needs improvement

THAT is 100% correct. my question is why would you NOT support static IP setting? its something they stopped doing, that earlier devices did.

i believe it was purely a business decision on behalf of the SBC part of the duet. ie they force you to have one to setup the SBR part. i am confident this is correct b/c after i informed slim that you could setup a duet with just SP, that feature was pulled from the SP, (at least when i tried it again later). i call shenanigans.

Pascal Hibon
2010-11-23, 14:55
So keep it as simple as possible.
Wizards quite often don’t make things simpler – although that was their purpose at design. When something goes wrong then you’re really in a big mess. That is also the case with the various SqueezeBox devices.

Any network device will need some “basic” network setup in order to be able to connect to that network. If you’re wireless then you need to know how your wireless setup (ssid’s, security, etc).