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hellbringer616
2010-04-27, 19:57
I have a few Squeezeboxs we are testing out for one of our business clients to get music into their buildings.
So we set up a custom radio using shoutcast and winamp as a test run, and all was great!

But now they keep droping the stream..

So far i've tried pretty much everything i can think of on the winamp/shoutcast side of things.. it will run 24/7 if i stream it to a computer. But the squeezeboxes will drop it still. about 5 or 6 times a day, pretty much at random..

I feel i've narrowed it down to either their slow internet (Frantional T1)

Or their business class router (i believe it's called a sonicwall, But i'd have to check)

Called logitech and all they did was whine that i'm not using their squeeze server software..

So, you guys are my last hope! :D

snarlydwarf
2010-04-27, 21:03
Or their business class router (i believe it's called a sonicwall, But i'd have to check)

Ugh, you do NOT want to know the words I would use to describe my experiences with SonicWall. Firewalls that drop packets under load are Very Bad, especially when the load is really around 15Mpbs or so. It was so overloaded the web administration pages would barely load.

Deleting a rule on the SonicWalls would "sometimes" delete other rules. There is no "save my config to a tftp server" or "dump the config in text so I can look at it.." You need to use their horrid web interface for everything, and repeated 'print this page' to print out the config.

If I said what I thought about SonicWalls, I would be booted from the forum forever.

That said, the SonicWalls at work have been replaced with a Linux box.



Called logitech and all they did was whine that i'm not using their squeeze server software..


Then I'm not surprised things drop. Squeezeboxes are not smart: they need to talk to a server for 'command and control'. The server can tell them "go get a stream from this URL" but... you need a server to do that much.

How are you telling the SB to connect to a URL without SBS?

hellbringer616
2010-04-27, 21:14
on mysqueezebox.com you can add "favorites" i added my dyndns connected to the media server to it. and it picked up perfectly.

From what you say though it is indeed the sonicwall then, As on my 10mbps home internet it would connect and stay connected perfectly. (hence why i thought maybe it was the fractional T1)

I sadly can't touch some of the features in the sonicwall as thats something only the head admin can do. I'll bring it up to him.

Any settings that i could change that may work?

snarlydwarf
2010-04-27, 21:47
on mysqueezebox.com you can add "favorites" i added my dyndns connected to the media server to it. and it picked up perfectly.

Ah, well then you're using SBS (well, the customized-version that is MySB...) That makes more sense.



From what you say though it is indeed the sonicwall then, As on my 10mbps home internet it would connect and stay connected perfectly. (hence why i thought maybe it was the fractional T1)


They don't perform well at all under load, which is pretty sad. It's like they insist on doing connection tracking and then fall over when their connection tables fill.

Bizarre and makes no sense at all to me, because as best I could tell, the Sonicwalls are simply Linux or BSD boxes with some icky custom software. There is no reason they shouldn't be able to move around a TON more packets. But.. they don't.

Maybe massively simplifying rules could help, but when they started having bonus deletions (as in click to delete one rule with the horrid web interface, and watch it delete a couple others for no reason...) they became a "don't touch this or it will all explode" sort of thing.



I sadly can't touch some of the features in the sonicwall as thats something only the head admin can do. I'll bring it up to him.

Any settings that i could change that may work?

Not that I know of: as I said, ours got "retired".

hellbringer616
2010-04-28, 14:44
Not the sonicwall (sadly...) as it streams a local internet radio perfectly..

Does anyone else here have their own radio stream using shoutcast that has a similar issue?

snarlydwarf
2010-04-28, 15:21
One thing to check on the SonicWalls: when I had a web server behind them, my ssh connections would drop if I idled "too long". They (like many NAT boxes) try to limit their table sizes by deciding connections have expired.


There is a "Default Connection Timeout" setting that is, by default set to 5 minutes.

It may be that the connection to MySB is idle enough that the SonicWall is closing that connection, which may do bad things like drop the other connection eventually.

hellbringer616
2010-04-29, 06:07
Where might that be located? the sonicwall has a pretty big web interface..

MrSinatra
2010-04-29, 15:25
i can't speak to the sonicwall, but i find it interesting that the sonicwall is being blamed when a computer with winamp can do the stream 24/7.

i have a comcast cable modem and my config is in my sig. other than the windows firewall and the very popular router i have, nothing else should be in the way.

my initial reason for getting a SB was to listen to my stations streams (which i manage) at home. slim swore up and down i'd be able to do this, without even having a computer on.

well, i have tried everything, SN indirect, SBS direct, full buffer, forced SBS proxied, wired, etc... and the bottom line is that certain streams just will not be played robustly and reliably by slim stuff. its not predictable and i'm not saying its ALWAYS, but it is enough to make it be something i don't often do, and unfortunately i have to say slim gear has totally failed the main reason i got it.

meanwhile, i can always play my streams 100% reliably wirelessly on my laptop with winamp or whatever else i want to use.

i have posted extensively about my problems in the SN forums and elsewhere, but i don't think they can reliably reproduce it, or think its important enough to fix.

snarlydwarf
2010-04-29, 16:11
Where might that be located? the sonicwall has a pretty big web interface..

It should be under 'TCP Settings'

mpower9
2010-05-04, 09:51
Maybe you are suffering from the dreaded 7.5 station drop. See Bug #16170 http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16170

hellbringer616
2010-05-05, 08:57
It seemed to work at the office before the sonicwall just fine. ALTHOUGH it was an older one we bought 4 months ago. might be it maybe?

@Snarlydwarf: the default connection time out is disabled on our sonicwall.

EDIT: on the firmware thought, I'm not sure when the new firmware came out, But it's been happening i believe since i installed it on the 12th of april.

although it's still happening, After having my second squeezebox play on a local internet radio station. My second squeezebox now rarely drops. however, the one playing local radio seems to be doing just what the bug says, dropping a lot at random times.

EDIT2: updated it to 7.5.1 from 7.5 (the bugged one) and it dropped again.. Should i upgrade to 7.6 or something?

Also, the slimserver software can not see the squeezebox (i installed it locally. though i'm not sure if the squeezebox needs a workgroup like Windows does)

EDIT3: just a thought, do ports 3486 tcp and udp need to be open for the squeezebox as well? as i don't believe they are..

Also, would using the SBS software to stream of the internet(if possible) be better than Winamp?

MrSinatra
2010-05-10, 12:41
my understanding is the default way internet radio works is that regardless of how you start the connection, ultimately it becomes a direct connection between the hardware and the internet source of the stream.

b/c i was complaining to Andy, he did put in a feature in SBS where you can force SBS to "proxy" the stream, supposedly making it more reliable. i think it does, but not enough. its what SBS does by default when two or more pieces of hardware are sync'd.

in addition, in both the hardware and software, you can up the buffer times to 30 seconds i think.

in my exp, no matter what you do with slim configs, winamp is far more robust and reliable.

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3161

MrSinatra
2010-05-10, 12:41
my understanding is the default way internet radio works is that
regardless of how you start the connection, ultimately it becomes a
direct connection between the hardware and the internet source of the
stream.

b/c i was complaining to Andy, he did put in a feature in SBS where you
can force SBS to "proxy" the stream, supposedly making it more reliable.
i think it does, but not enough. its what SBS does by default when two
or more pieces of hardware are sync'd.

in addition, in both the hardware and software, you can up the buffer
times to 30 seconds i think.

in my exp, no matter what you do with slim configs, winamp is far more
robust and reliable.

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3161


--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
using:
sb2 & sbc (my home) / sbr (parent's home) - sbs 7.5b - win xp pro sp3
ie8 - p4(ht) 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid1 - d-link dir-655 -
40k+ mp3
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hellbringer616
2010-05-11, 19:02
So, nothing i can do to fix this then?

But correct me if i'm wrong here. So basically something is cutting out the stream. And it's SB side, as the server streams to my PC (as a test) 24/7

hellbringer616
2010-05-11, 19:02
So, nothing i can do to fix this then?

But correct me if i'm wrong here. So basically something is cutting out
the stream. And it's SB side, as the server streams to my PC (as a test)
24/7


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MrSinatra
2010-05-11, 19:46
well, like i said earlier, its interesting to me that all the focus was being put on the sonicwall, when you can listen to the same stream on winamp just fine.

some people tend to focus on shifting blame from all things slim, no matter what. thats unfortunate, since it doesn't help improve slim.

still, that does not mean that it isn't possible that there may be something about your setup that somehow, for some reason, adversely affects slim and not winamp, and you should try to eliminate any such possibilities, and its not unreasonable for others to try to help you do that.

but when doing so, one should keep an open mind that its not only possible, but probable the problem does in fact, lie with slim.

so anyway, have you tried setting up SBS behind the sonicwall and forcing it to proxy the stream with a 30sec buffer? (you should also set your hardware to "show buffer fullness." not sure tho if that available on newer hardware)

MrSinatra
2010-05-11, 19:46
well, like i said earlier, its interesting to me that all the focus was
being put on the sonicwall, when you can listen to the same stream on
winamp just fine.

some people tend to focus on shifting blame from all things slim, no
matter what. thats unfortunate, since it doesn't help improve slim.

still, that does not mean that it isn't possible that there may be
something about your setup that somehow, for some reason, adversely
affects slim and not winamp, and you should try to eliminate any such
possibilities, and its not unreasonable for others to try to help you
do that.

but when doing so, one should keep an open mind that its not only
possible, but probable the problem does in fact, lie with slim.

so anyway, have you tried setting up SBS behind the sonicwall and
forcing it to proxy the stream with a 30sec buffer? (you should also
set your hardware to "show buffer fullness." not sure tho if that
available on newer hardware)


--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
using:
sb2 & sbc (my home) / sbr (parent's home) - sbs 7.5b - win xp pro sp3
ie8 - p4(ht) 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid1 - d-link dir-655 -
40k+ mp3
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snarlydwarf
2010-05-11, 20:15
well, like i said earlier, its interesting to me that all the focus was being put on the sonicwall, when you can listen to the same stream on winamp just fine.

I suggest you read the thread: the OP brought up the Sonicwall -- it worked fine at his location, not at the clients, and the clients are behind a SonicWall.

If you've had the displeasure of using a SonicWall, you would know why I abhor them.

A sample setup:
client PC's behind a sonic wall
web server outside the sonic (NOT in the 'dmz', the port labelled DMZ is not a DMZ according to SonicWall support. "Box no do that" is the direct quote.)

Very simple.

HTTP Posts for me (outside the sonicwall to the web server): I uploaded 20M flv files in a second or two.

HTTP post for people behind the sonic wall of the same files: 2 minutes.

Not exaggerating.

In order to make their life better, we used a second ethernet port on the web server with a net-10 address so that they could actually post in a reasonable time by bypassing the Sonic. Of course, that totally destroys the point of having a fireall when a public facing and highly visible web server has an ethernet port on the 'secured' network.

Amazingly bad crap.

It was switched out for a Linux box running shorewall, and the complaints about speed went away. Not only did their access to their own web server speed up, so did their access to everything on the 'net.

do you have contradictory experience with SonicWall?



some people tend to focus on shifting blame from all things slim, no matter what. thats unfortunate, since it doesn't help improve slim.


Again, read the first post. I didn't bring up SonicWall: the OP did, and I expressed my experience with it. We had three of the things, they all got written off and given away.

What is your experience with SonicWalls?

Now back to the killfile you go.

snarlydwarf
2010-05-11, 20:15
MrSinatra;545598 Wrote:
> well, like i said earlier, its interesting to me that all the focus was
> being put on the sonicwall, when you can listen to the same stream on
> winamp just fine.

I suggest you read the thread: the OP brought up the Sonicwall -- it
worked fine at his location, not at the clients, and the clients are
behind a SonicWall.

If you've had the displeasure of using a SonicWall, you would know why
I abhor them.

A sample setup:
client PC's behind a sonic wall
web server outside the sonic (NOT in the 'dmz', the port labelled DMZ
is not a DMZ according to SonicWall support. "Box no do that" is the
direct quote.)

Very simple.

HTTP Posts for me (outside the sonicwall to the web server): I uploaded
20M flv files in a second or two.

HTTP post for people behind the sonic wall of the same files: 2
minutes.

Not exaggerating.

In order to make their life better, we used a second ethernet port on
the web server with a net-10 address so that they could actually post
in a reasonable time by bypassing the Sonic. Of course, that totally
destroys the point of having a fireall when a public facing and highly
visible web server has an ethernet port on the 'secured' network.

Amazingly bad crap.

It was switched out for a Linux box running shorewall, and the
complaints about speed went away. Not only did their access to their
own web server speed up, so did their access to everything on the
'net.

do you have contradictory experience with SonicWall?

>
> some people tend to focus on shifting blame from all things slim, no
> matter what. thats unfortunate, since it doesn't help improve slim.
>

Again, read the first post. I didn't bring up SonicWall: the OP did,
and I expressed my experience with it. We had three of the things,
they all got written off and given away.

What is your experience with SonicWalls?

Now back to the killfile you go.


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MrSinatra
2010-05-11, 20:38
I have a few Squeezeboxs we are testing out for one of our business clients to get music into their buildings.
So we set up a custom radio using shoutcast and winamp as a test run, and all was great!

But now they keep droping the stream..

So far i've tried pretty much everything i can think of on the winamp/shoutcast side of things.. it will run 24/7 if i stream it to a computer. But the squeezeboxes will drop it still. about 5 or 6 times a day, pretty much at random..

i already said i have no exp w/sonicwall. perhaps i have made an incorrect interpretation of the above, but i don't think so. i do think you need to reread the thread.

what i want explained, is why the computer is more robust than the slim hardware, if both are behind the sonicwall? (i'm not sure if the stream is also behind the sonicwall or not, but i'm not sure that matters as to my point)

i am basing what i am saying on what he said. so perhaps at this point, he should clarify things, but i think my interpretation is the correct one. if i'm wrong, np. but i can only base my replies on what i read.

MrSinatra
2010-05-11, 20:38
hellbringer616;541132 Wrote:
> I have a few Squeezeboxs we are testing out for one of our business
> clients to get music into their buildings.
> So we set up a custom radio using shoutcast and winamp as a test run,
> and all was great!
>
> But now they keep droping the stream..
>
> So far i've tried pretty much everything i can think of on the
> winamp/shoutcast side of things.. *it will run 24/7 if i stream it to a
> computer. But the squeezeboxes will drop it still.* about 5 or 6 times a
> day, pretty much at random..

i already said i have no exp w/sonicwall. perhaps i have made an
incorrect interpretation of the above, but i don't think so. i do
think you need to reread the thread.

what i want explained, is why the computer is more robust than the slim
hardware, if both are behind the sonicwall? (i'm not sure if the stream
is also behind the sonicwall or not, but i'm not sure that matters as to
my point)

i am basing what i am saying on what he said. so perhaps at this
point, he should clarify things, but i think my interpretation is the
correct one. if i'm wrong, np. but i can only base my replies on what
i read.


--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
using:
sb2 & sbc (my home) / sbr (parent's home) - sbs 7.5b - win xp pro sp3
ie8 - p4(ht) 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid1 - d-link dir-655 -
40k+ mp3
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hellbringer616
2010-05-12, 19:48
The computer comment is my fault, It streams to a computer 24/7 thats not behind the sonicwall. I sadly can not test it on a computer behind the sonic wall..

Can you please explain what you mean by using SBS to force a proxy? This squeezebox stuff is very new to me. and i barely know anything about proxies to begin with.. I did however increase the buffer to 30secs using the squeezebox remote. And that sadly doesn't help. still drops.

Also. it seems to have trouble connecting to "mysqueezebox.com" from the squeezebox it's self (from computer all is good.)

MrSinatra
2010-05-13, 00:12
there is a setting in SBS to allow you to force it to proxy an internet stream to the hardware, instead of the hardware handling it directly (and alone). not sure where, but its in there. (it is not a web surfing proxy, thats different and unrelated to this)

in order to do that, you will need a SBS install BEHIND the sonicwall with the hardware. i suggest you test the streams out on winamp or some computer first, that is behind the sonicwall, to see if the problem persists outside the slim universe.

you will not know if its slims fault, or the sonicwalls, until you do.

hellbringer616
2010-05-13, 04:39
I'll give that a shot then, When i updated the squeezebox to firmware 7.5.1I couldn't ever hit the slim server software. I was never able to hit it. But i did get it to update.

Is there anyway to fix that?

MrSinatra
2010-05-13, 12:49
i don't know what you mean by "hit it." i also don't know how you updated the FW without a local SBS install.

hellbringer616
2010-05-13, 15:42
By "hit it" i meant i can't connect the Squeezebox to SBS, and i installed it locally and while the squeezebox said it never connected. It did somehow get connected once just long enough to update. But since then, it's impossible for either device to see one another.

According to the sonicwall ports 9000 and 3483 are open as required by the squeezebox. the SBS still can't see the SB, and vice versa. I can however go to Mysqueezebox.com and using the remote control. change the song, pause it, play it, ect.

I'm beginning to think faulty device at this point..

My second squeezebox at a different location has been playing non stop for 5 days now (it is behind a sonicwall as well. But a much newer model)

MrSinatra
2010-05-13, 16:07
so you have the hardware, (what kind of SB is it?) and the SBS software both behind the sonicwall, meaning on the same LAN side?

and you can't get the hardware to connect to the software?

are both connections wired? sometimes it can be a pain to get them talking, you need to reboot etc... i would try this:

forget mysb.com for the moment.

start SBS and then start/install Squeezeplay on the same computer behind the sonicwall. try to force the proxy to squeezeplay (not sure if you can, but try). then try listening to different internet streams on SP, see if it works. (what you do on squeezeplay should also show up on SBS webui).

try your shoutcast station too, (where is it btw, behind the sonicwall or not?)

that should at least let you know how SBS/SP is working.

then, try rebooting/factory resetting your hardware a few times, and getting it to connect to the SBS. if it doesn't connect to SBS, it could be the hardware, but it could be the sonicwall or other things too. sometimes you gotta reboot the device or reboot/play around in SBS to get it to work.

MrSinatra
2010-05-13, 16:11
and try winamp on internet streams a computer behind the sonicwall too, see how it does.

toby10
2010-05-14, 01:51
The computer comment is my fault, It streams to a computer 24/7 thats not behind the sonicwall. I sadly can not test it on a computer behind the sonic wall.....

So the computer that streams fine is not behind your Sonicwall.
But your SBS and SB players are behind your Sonicwall, and exhibit problems.

If I'm understanding this correctly then you are comparing two different networks (or possibly two different subnets).
I'd still be very suspicious of the Sonicwall in this scenario.

hellbringer616
2010-05-14, 04:49
so you have the hardware, (what kind of SB is it?) and the SBS software both behind the sonicwall, meaning on the same LAN side?
It's a Squeezebox Radio, They are both behind the same Sonicwall on the same LAN connection.



and you can't get the hardware to connect to the software?

Can't get the hardware or software to connect to eachother.



are both connections wired? sometimes it can be a pain to get them talking, you need to reboot etc... i would try this:
They are wired



try your shoutcast station too, (where is it btw, behind the sonicwall or not?)
It is not behind the Sonicwall. It is in a separate location all together.



Then, try rebooting/factory resetting your hardware a few times, and getting it to connect to the SBS. if it doesn't connect to SBS, it could be the hardware, but it could be the sonicwall or other things too. sometimes you gotta reboot the device or reboot/play around in SBS to get it to work.
I tried rebooting the Sonicwall. The SB, The computer with the SBS installed, i restored the SB to factory settings. then tried turning them on in various order (Sonicwall>SBS>SB. SB>Sonicwall>SBS. ect)

MrSinatra
2010-05-14, 12:30
ok...

first, be aware of this very hot bug:

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16170

you should vote for it. it may be your issue.

but secondly, forget all the hardware for the moment.

try doing two things:

1. listen to various internet streams, including your test one, via winamp on a computer that is BEHIND the sonicwall. does it work? yes or no?

2. same exact thing, only this time use SBS and Squeezeplay to listen, (no hardware).

that will go a long way to figuring out a lot of things.

after that, we'll try to figure out why SBS dosn't connect to the hardware.