Woeful sync SB3 & Boom - just me?

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  • moley6knipe
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2007
    • 649

    Woeful sync SB3 & Boom - just me?

    I've had two SB3s for ages, one wired, one wireless. Have never had *any* sync issues at all, ever, under any version of SqzCtr.

    Now, having added a wireless Boom, sync is awful. Using LAME to go to 192kbps from apple lossless, always have done to the wireless SB3. Up to three seconds out, all three devices refusing to lock together. Tried with clean installs of 7.4.3 and 7.4.2. And oh what fun it is spending another evening putting all my settings back in. Yes, I back them up but I've yet to upgrade versions without needing to do a clean install to get it working properly.

    Sync returns when I unplug the mains on all three devices.

    By the time I've unplugged all the devices and waited for them to boot, it would be quicker to find the disc and play it. Which puts me back about 10 years.

    But, surely that's not the solution? Anyone else have this, before I start pulling my network to pieces?

    XP Pro SP3, wireless G network with WPA-PSK. 66% signal on Boom, 70+ on SB3. PC is dual core 3Ghz 4Gb DDR3 ram so it can certainly run all this.
    Win7 > iTunes 10.5 > SBS 7.5.4 > iPeng > Squeezebox 3 / Boom / iPhone > ears
  • moley6knipe
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2007
    • 649

    #2
    The Boom is only a few weeks old, so it can always go back as unsuitable.

    Oh, and I'd try contacting Support, but they've never responded to me yet, so I'll save the RSI...

    I realise I'm moaning, but I just want to listen to some music.
    Win7 > iTunes 10.5 > SBS 7.5.4 > iPeng > Squeezebox 3 / Boom / iPhone > ears

    Comment

    • pippin
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2007
      • 14809

      #3
      Re: Woeful sync SB3 & Boom - just me?

      What kind of server do you use?
      Do I understand correctly that you transcode to mp3 on the fly? Why? Please try to transcode to flac instead, should use much less CPU and give you better quality at the same time.

      I think your sync issue could be due to the server simply having too much load.
      ---
      learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and
      Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
      at penguinlovesmusic.com
      New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch

      Comment

      • toby10
        Senior Member
        • Jul 2007
        • 9329

        #4
        I'd first try (temporarily) a couple of simple Boom tests to rule out WiFi issues:
        - move Boom much closer to your router
        - try wiring Boom (arrow back to setup, select Ethernet)

        Comment

        • moley6knipe
          Senior Member
          • Feb 2007
          • 649

          #5
          Hello. Thanks for replying even though I'm whining. I'll stop whining now.

          @ pippin
          My server is a PC running WinXp Pro SP3, dual-core E8400 chip (3Ghz), 4Gb DDR3 RAM.

          I transcode to mp3 for the devices connected via wireless simply to extend the possible range of coverage for my Boom. The wired SB3 is set to stream in flac (obviously it transcodes to mp3 when it's sync'd). I know mp3 transcoding uses some juice but surely not enough to defeat my server?

          @ toby10
          Problem is that the sync issues are random. Sometimes they happen, sometimes they don't. I'll wire the boom and see if they persist. If they don't, what tips can I try to improve my wireless network? Have tried changing frequencies, problem persists. Any tools to check for interference?

          I'm not convinced it's that, though, have never had problems with 2+ years of syncing sb3 wireless with sb3 wired with lame transcoding, but I appreciate that adding the boom increases network traffic.
          Last edited by moley6knipe; 2010-03-20, 18:40.
          Win7 > iTunes 10.5 > SBS 7.5.4 > iPeng > Squeezebox 3 / Boom / iPhone > ears

          Comment

          • toby10
            Senior Member
            • Jul 2007
            • 9329

            #6
            I presume your XP server is wired to the router?

            Many use a free program called NetStumbler to see the various WiFi's around them which may be causing interference.
            Haphazardly picking different WiFi Ch's is as good as rolling dice to pick your WiFi Ch.

            Basic WiFi troubleshooting:

            WiFi Network Tweaking and Performance Enhancements:
            - Perform a Site Survey (very simple to do) where you are looking for any/all WiFi networks near you and within range of your WiFi devices that may be interfering with your WiFi. Click on the little WiFi terminal on your computer, go to “View All Networks”. Make note of any/all other networks with a 50% or better signal strength. You want to note for each of these stronger signal networks the Name and Channel #. If the Channel #’s are not available you can try a free program called NetStumbler to view such info (it is very simple to use).

            With your Site Survey information you can now do some very simple WiFi performance enhancements:
            - log into your routers Administration functions and……
            - Change your routers name to something unique (i.e. not Linksys or DLink): This will ensure you are always connecting your players to YOUR network and not your neighbors network. This will also prevent accidental connections to your network from your neighbors devices.
            - Change your router to use only “G” mode: Most WiFi routers can use A or B or G modes, or all three. Unless you have much older WiFi devices you likely do not need A or B modes.
            - Change your Channel # to either 1 or 6 or 11 (or 13 if in Europe): Choose the Ch # based on which one is NOT in use near you. Ex: If Ch’s 1 & 11 are strong signals near you, choose Ch 6. If Ch’s 6 & 11 are in use near you, choose Ch 1. If all three 1-6-11 are all in use near you, choose the Ch # that shows as the weakest nearby. Ex: Nearby networks show Ch 1 at 70%, Ch 6 at 80%, Ch 11 at 60%, then choose Ch 11 (the weakest nearby strong Ch).
            NOTE: When you change your routers WiFi Name and/or Ch # *all* devices connected via WiFi will disconnect from the router. Don’t panic, this is what you want. 
            Changing Name: You will have to manually re-connect all devices by selecting the new router Name on your devices WiFi setup
            Changing Ch #: All devices should automatically re-connect within 60 seconds if only changing the Ch #

            Further WiFi Enhancements:
            - Move the router: Higher, lower, away from electronic devices (particularly computers and cordless phones), more centrally located in the home, orientating router and antennas for maximum signal strength to the troubled player

            Comment

            • pippin
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2007
              • 14809

              #7
              Re: Woeful sync SB3 & Boom - just me?

              Please try turning off mp3 transcoding. You won't extend anything through that any WiFi coverage will be good enough for a single flac stream.

              Scheduling on windows isn't particularly good and while transcoding to mp3 will not bring your server down it can be enough to kill sync timing.
              ---
              learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and
              Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
              at penguinlovesmusic.com
              New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch

              Comment

              • Mnyb
                Senior Member
                • Feb 2006
                • 16538

                #8
                And also you are doing both mp3 trans-coding and flac trans-coding simultaneously, it must make life harder for the sync algorithm ?
                --------------------------------------------------------------------
                Main hifi: Rasbery PI digi+ MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub.
                Bedroom/Office: Boom
                Loggia: Raspi hifiberry dac + Adams
                Bathroom : Radio (with battery)
                iPad with iPengHD & SqueezePad
                (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
                server Intel NUC Esxi VM Linux mint 18 LMS 7.9.2

                http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

                Comment

                • pippin
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2007
                  • 14809

                  #9
                  Re: Woeful sync SB3 & Boom - just me?

                  Originally posted by Mnyb
                  And also you are doing both mp3 trans-coding and flac trans-coding simultaneously, it must make life harder for the sync algorithm ?
                  Really? If that's the case it would explain it altogether since I don't thing you can reliably sync mp3 and flac streams. I was assuming that as soon as you sync all the SBs would play the mp3 stream.
                  ---
                  learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and
                  Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
                  at penguinlovesmusic.com
                  New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch

                  Comment

                  • rgro
                    Senior Member
                    • Nov 2009
                    • 891

                    #10
                    Originally posted by toby10
                    I presume your XP server is wired to the router?

                    Many use a free program called NetStumbler to see the various WiFi's around them which may be causing interference.
                    Haphazardly picking different WiFi Ch's is as good as rolling dice to pick your WiFi Ch.

                    Basic WiFi troubleshooting:

                    WiFi Network Tweaking and Performance Enhancements:
                    - Perform a Site Survey (very simple to do) where you are looking for any/all WiFi networks near you and within range of your WiFi devices that may be interfering with your WiFi. Click on the little WiFi terminal on your computer, go to “View All Networks”. Make note of any/all other networks with a 50% or better signal strength. You want to note for each of these stronger signal networks the Name and Channel #. If the Channel #’s are not available you can try a free program called NetStumbler to view such info (it is very simple to use).

                    With your Site Survey information you can now do some very simple WiFi performance enhancements:
                    - log into your routers Administration functions and……
                    - Change your routers name to something unique (i.e. not Linksys or DLink): This will ensure you are always connecting your players to YOUR network and not your neighbors network. This will also prevent accidental connections to your network from your neighbors devices.
                    - Change your router to use only “G” mode: Most WiFi routers can use A or B or G modes, or all three. Unless you have much older WiFi devices you likely do not need A or B modes.
                    - Change your Channel # to either 1 or 6 or 11 (or 13 if in Europe): Choose the Ch # based on which one is NOT in use near you. Ex: If Ch’s 1 & 11 are strong signals near you, choose Ch 6. If Ch’s 6 & 11 are in use near you, choose Ch 1. If all three 1-6-11 are all in use near you, choose the Ch # that shows as the weakest nearby. Ex: Nearby networks show Ch 1 at 70%, Ch 6 at 80%, Ch 11 at 60%, then choose Ch 11 (the weakest nearby strong Ch).
                    NOTE: When you change your routers WiFi Name and/or Ch # *all* devices connected via WiFi will disconnect from the router. Don’t panic, this is what you want. 
                    Changing Name: You will have to manually re-connect all devices by selecting the new router Name on your devices WiFi setup
                    Changing Ch #: All devices should automatically re-connect within 60 seconds if only changing the Ch #

                    Further WiFi Enhancements:
                    - Move the router: Higher, lower, away from electronic devices (particularly computers and cordless phones), more centrally located in the home, orientating router and antennas for maximum signal strength to the troubled player

                    Plus, NetStumbler can be configured for an almost real time continuous graphing/readout of both signal strength and S/N ratios that you can display for each wireless signal being received by your wireless card...good diagnostic tool for both your own equipment and to see what how much your neighbors' signal is really doing....Install it on a laptop and move around with it, you might be surprised with what you find. Lastly, it may look like one of those slightly dodgy things when you go to their website, but it's completely safe to download and use.
                    Rg

                    System information
                    ------------------------
                    Main: RPI4B/PiCorePlayer/LMS> RPI4B/piCoreplayer/Squeezelite > USB>RME ADI-2 DAC > Benchmark AHB2 > Revel Performa F208 speakers, 2X REL R-305 subs.

                    Home Theatre: RPI4 B/HifiBerry Dac+ Pro>Pioneer VSX 919 > Energy Take 5 Classic 5.1.

                    LMS 8.1.2 - 1612773843 on RPI4B with 1tb Samsung T5 SSD.

                    Comment

                    • Mnyb
                      Senior Member
                      • Feb 2006
                      • 16538

                      #11
                      Originally posted by pippin
                      Really? If that's the case it would explain it altogether since I don't thing you can reliably sync mp3 and flac streams. I was assuming that as soon as you sync all the SBs would play the mp3 stream.
                      He is using alac -flac in general

                      Then bit rate limiting is a per player setting, the boom has it set at 192kBps

                      Bandwith should be plenty if the network is ok.

                      The bandwidth test in squeeboxserver can fool you a bit, for example an SB3 or Receiver starts to choke at 3000k over wifi, the radio at 2000k controller at 500k, but it's the player that is the bottleneck.
                      Start the network test on all players at the same time and see you can probably stream more than you think, because it bottoms out on one player don't mean that's the max for the whole network.
                      --------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Main hifi: Rasbery PI digi+ MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub.
                      Bedroom/Office: Boom
                      Loggia: Raspi hifiberry dac + Adams
                      Bathroom : Radio (with battery)
                      iPad with iPengHD & SqueezePad
                      (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
                      server Intel NUC Esxi VM Linux mint 18 LMS 7.9.2

                      http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

                      Comment

                      • pippin
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2007
                        • 14809

                        #12
                        Re: Woeful sync SB3 & Boom - just me?

                        Yes, I understand that. I just thought that if you sync players it uses the smallest common denominator for all of them. For example, if I sync SB3 to Touch and play AAC, both play the transcoded stream even though the Touch can play AAC natively because otherwise sync would not work.
                        Same with 24/96 material, if I sync Transporter and SB3, both play the downsampled stream.
                        ---
                        learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and
                        Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
                        at penguinlovesmusic.com
                        New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch

                        Comment

                        • Mnyb
                          Senior Member
                          • Feb 2006
                          • 16538

                          #13
                          Originally posted by pippin
                          Yes, I understand that. I just thought that if you sync players it uses the smallest common denominator for all of them. For example, if I sync SB3 to Touch and play AAC, both play the transcoded stream even though the Touch can play AAC natively because otherwise sync would not work.
                          Same with 24/96 material, if I sync Transporter and SB3, both play the downsampled stream.
                          They do ? that's not so fantastic, I understands if it would not work with mp3 and flac as they are internally different ,but flac vs flac where the only diff is the 1/2 sample-rate.
                          --------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Main hifi: Rasbery PI digi+ MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub.
                          Bedroom/Office: Boom
                          Loggia: Raspi hifiberry dac + Adams
                          Bathroom : Radio (with battery)
                          iPad with iPengHD & SqueezePad
                          (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
                          server Intel NUC Esxi VM Linux mint 18 LMS 7.9.2

                          http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

                          Comment

                          • moley6knipe
                            Senior Member
                            • Feb 2007
                            • 649

                            #14
                            Hi everyone, thanks for all the tips, I'll have a play. Can't use NetStumbler as have no wi-fi card in my PC but have only scanned thru docs so far so I may be wrong.

                            Yes, when streaming to all 3 of my devices in sync everything streams to all players as 192 mp3 at the moment.

                            @ Pippin
                            Please try turning off mp3 transcoding. You won't extend anything through that any WiFi coverage will be good enough for a single flac stream.
                            Scheduling on windows isn't particularly good and while transcoding to mp3 will not bring your server down it can be enough to kill sync timing

                            ...thanks for that, will try. I'd assumed that the lower the bitrate the less signal strength needed to transmit it and therefore further distance possible.

                            Transcoding to flac shows on my devices shows as "converted to 700ishkbps ABR". I'm presuming that alac>flac takes less work than alac>mp3 thus more chance of the server getting it all right in time to stream, thus less problems in streaming over wi-fi - is that about right?
                            Win7 > iTunes 10.5 > SBS 7.5.4 > iPeng > Squeezebox 3 / Boom / iPhone > ears

                            Comment

                            • pippin
                              Senior Member
                              • Oct 2007
                              • 14809

                              #15
                              Originally posted by moley6knipe
                              Transcoding to flac shows on my devices shows as "converted to 700ishkbps ABR". I'm presuming that alac>flac takes less work than alac>mp3 thus more chance of the server getting it all right in time to stream, thus less problems in streaming over wi-fi - is that about right?
                              Muuuch less. Don't know about ALAC but you need to decode that anyway, and you can do flac encoding completely on an integer basis, this takes way less load than mp3.

                              You are correct that you can theoretically get a higher range with lower bandwidth but I don't think there are any modes below 11MBit/s in modern WiFi networks so plenty of capacity left. Plus if you need that your coverage will probably be spotty causing trouble with streaming at any bitrate,

                              The biggest issue I could see is that the server has to do a bit of real-time processing to get the sync done right and if it transcodes in the same process this can get spotty. I also don't think lame is optimized for real-time operation.
                              ---
                              learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and
                              Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
                              at penguinlovesmusic.com
                              New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch

                              Comment

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