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View Full Version : Nedd to worry about display "burn in"?



Larry Truesdale
2004-08-11, 23:31
Hello,

I like the display on my squeezebox at the highest brightness level.
Should I worry about "burn in" or "fading" over time? Would it be
better to set the standby brightness to something lower to prolong the
life of the display?

Thanks,

Larry

seanadams
2004-08-12, 10:09
Larry,

Burn-in is indeed a characteristic of VFDs but we have not had any
reports of it in SLIMP3/Squeezebox with over 3yrs worth of hardware in
the field. So I think the lifetime is quite long...

Of course it depends on what you've got displayed, and how brightly. To
maximize the lifetime you might want to use the 3/4 brightness level or
use the lineX screensaver. However I don't have any indication that
burn-in is really a practical concern for the displays we're using, but
perhaps it's too early.

I'll ask our vendor though...

Sean

On Aug 11, 2004, at 11:31 PM, Larry Truesdale wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I like the display on my squeezebox at the highest brightness level.
> Should I worry about "burn in" or "fading" over time? Would it be
> better to set the standby brightness to something lower to prolong the
> life of the display?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Larry
>

Larry Truesdale
2004-08-12, 16:48
Thanks for the info. I'll look forward to hearing what the vendor says.

Larry

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:09:45 -0700, Sean Adams <sadams (AT) slimdevices (DOT) com> wrote:
>
> Larry,
>
> Burn-in is indeed a characteristic of VFDs but we have not had any
> reports of it in SLIMP3/Squeezebox with over 3yrs worth of hardware in
> the field. So I think the lifetime is quite long...
>
> Of course it depends on what you've got displayed, and how brightly. To
> maximize the lifetime you might want to use the 3/4 brightness level or
> use the lineX screensaver. However I don't have any indication that
> burn-in is really a practical concern for the displays we're using, but
> perhaps it's too early.
>
> I'll ask our vendor though...
>
> Sean
>
>
>
> On Aug 11, 2004, at 11:31 PM, Larry Truesdale wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I like the display on my squeezebox at the highest brightness level.
> > Should I worry about "burn in" or "fading" over time? Would it be
> > better to set the standby brightness to something lower to prolong the
> > life of the display?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Larry
> >

rudholm
2006-03-31, 19:43
Well, I have a SB3 that I bought in December that shows clear display burn-in. I have it configured to show the clock when it's off, usually at brightness 4 or 3 (and brightness 1 from midnight to 06:30).

You can see the burn-in where the clock digits are whenever large fields of pixels are lit, as when you adjust the volume or when the boot-up banner comes on.

It's pretty disappointing. :(

Ben Sandee
2006-03-31, 20:13
On 3/31/06, rudholm <rudholm.25ke0z1143859501 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>
wrote:
>
>
> Well, I have a SB3 that I bought in December that shows clear display
> burn-in. I have it configured to show the clock when it's off, usually
> at brightness 4 or 3 (and brightness 1 from midnight to 06:30).
>
> You can see the burn-in where the clock digits are whenever large
> fields of pixels are lit, as when you adjust the volume or when the
> boot-up banner comes on.
>
> It's pretty disappointing. :(


Can you post a pic? Thankfully, I don't see that on any of mine. Nor my
SliMP3 which I've had for two years and a SB1 too even. If it's bad enough
I would expect SlimDevices to take care of you (not like the mafia).

Ben

rudholm
2006-03-31, 23:52
It's hard to photograph, but you can see it in this picture: http://topanga.ca.us/burn-in.jpeg

And yeah, the aluminum faceplate fell off when I picked it up to position it for this photograph. I tried putting it back on but I just ended up denting it. I fear my nice SB3 is ruined...

:(

kdf
2006-04-01, 00:05
and that is what support (AT) slimdevices (DOT) com is for.
you'd be the first in many years of VFD displays and SD products to
suffer burn-in. I'm sure they'll want to hear from you directly.
-kdf

rudholm
2006-04-01, 00:15
I sent them email already. I don't suppose I'll hear from them until next week, though.

I'm pretty sure it's burn-in from the clock. In the dark pattern you can see the colon and vague outlines of what are probably the numbers. And the position of the clock digits lines up perfectly with the darkened area on the display. I've seen vacuum fluorescents burn-in before, but never this quickly/easily. I just checked my SB2, which is older and actually has the clock on more because I don't have AutoDim set to dim it at night.

stevieweevie
2006-04-01, 06:39
In my experience ... VFD's will loose luminosity as they age - same as all other display devices (Barring LCD ... but they don't emit, just block!).

With this in mind my Squeezebox is setup to power off after 30 mins of inactivity (via a Plugin) and the VFD display on my HTPC will turn off between 00:00 and 08:00.

Ben Sandee
2006-04-01, 09:26
On 4/1/06, rudholm <rudholm.25kpln1143874501 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com>
wrote:
>
>
> It's hard to photograph, but you can see it in this picture:
> http://topanga.ca.us/burn-in.jpeg


OK, that doesn't look like burn-in to me. It's more like burn-out. The
places that are on more frequently are slightly dimmer.

Ben

rudholm
2006-04-01, 09:41
That's what people mean when they say "burn-in" --the oft lit areas get darkened. The CRTs on any older coin-op video game unit are great examples of the effect.

stinkingpig
2006-04-01, 10:10
rudholm wrote:
> That's what people mean when they say "burn-in" --the oft lit areas get
> darkened. The CRTs on any older coin-op video game unit are great
> examples of the effect.
>

my SB2 and SB3 are on all the time and don't demonstrate that effect,
sounds like you got a bad one. I do wonder if it could be exacerbated by
dirty power?

Also the faceplate is a known issue which they've been taking care of. I
expect you'll get an RMA.

--
Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org: It's a Scientific Venture...
Riding the Emergency Third Rail Power Trip Since 1996

rudholm
2006-04-01, 11:04
rudholm wrote:
> That's what people mean when they say "burn-in" --the oft lit areas get
> darkened. The CRTs on any older coin-op video game unit are great
> examples of the effect.
>

my SB2 and SB3 are on all the time and don't demonstrate that effect,
sounds like you got a bad one. I do wonder if it could be exacerbated by
dirty power?

Also the faceplate is a known issue which they've been taking care of. I
expect you'll get an RMA.


Yeah, I'm inclined to believe that I just got a bad unit (perhaps part of a bad lot of displays) because my older SB2 shows the clock at full brightness whenever it's off and it shows no signs of burn-in at all.

The two SBs are in the same house so any power-related issues would probably affect both of them, unless the problem was the wall wart. The only other difference is that I dim the SB3 at night, but it seems counter-intuitive that the dimming would accellerate burn-in unless the displays don't like that PWM (that I assume is) going on, but again, that's just not very intuitive...

tyler_durden
2006-04-02, 08:43
The problem would be reduced if the text that is displayed when the unit is off scrolled across the screen slowly, or maybe bounced back and forth across it. If it moved 1 pixel in 10 seconds it would spread the load over the whole display and eliminate the uneven burn-in problem by spreading it out over the whole display.

Of course, displaying a scrolling newsticker instead of the clock will also solve the problem...

TD

stinkingpig
2006-04-02, 09:21
tyler_durden wrote:
> The problem would be reduced if the text that is displayed when the unit
> is off scrolled across the screen slowly, or maybe bounced back and
> forth across it. If it moved 1 pixel in 10 seconds it would spread the
> load over the whole display and eliminate the uneven burn-in problem by
> spreading it out over the whole display.
>
> Of course, displaying a scrolling newsticker instead of the clock will
> also solve the problem...
>
> TD
>
>
>
Or the one person who's reported this, ever, could return his defective
unit :)

--
Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org: It's a Scientific Venture...
Riding the Emergency Third Rail Power Trip Since 1996

tyler_durden
2006-04-02, 19:08
The problem is inherent with vacuum fluorescent displays. One person has complained, but the product is new. In a year or two from now, everyone's display will be fading/burned. Look at any VCR with a vacuum fluorescent display. In a year or so they fade. In 5 years you can't read them any more.

The real issue is whether it's worth bothering about. In 5 years SB3s will be obsolete, antique, nearly useless junk, like every other computer device. The networking will be obsolete and slow and maybe not compatible with the UWB wireless that will be replacing 802.11g. The wired networking will be too slow because wired networks will be Gbit, if anyone is using wired networks... You'll want the thing to stream HD video to your wall size TV.

The display will last long enough for 99.9% of everyone who buys one now because they'll replace it with whatever is new and cool in a year or two.

In the meantime, I dim the display and run a news ticker or turn the display off when the unit is off.

TD

Jacob Potter
2006-04-02, 19:19
My SliMP3 is around 4 years old and shows no burn-in whatsoever.

Mark Lanctot
2006-04-02, 20:01
Look at any VCR with a vacuum fluorescent display. In a year or so they fade. In 5 years you can't read them any more.

I have a VCR from 1996 whose display has dimmed, but is still perfectly legible.

I have a microwave from 1998 whose display is at least as legible.

kjg
2006-04-03, 10:17
tyler_durden wrote:
> The problem is inherent with vacuum fluorescent displays. One person
> has complained, but the product is new. In a year or two from now,
> everyone's display will be fading/burned. Look at any VCR with a
> vacuum fluorescent display. In a year or so they fade. In 5 years you
> can't read them any more.
>

Hmm. My VCR was purchased in 1986 and the display is still perfectly
readable. My clock radio is nearly as old and the display shows very
little fade. My microwave is from 1994 and looks as it did new.

I don't know how the technology in these displays compares with that
used in the Squeezebox, but it certainly doesn't seem fair to say that
all displays die quickly. Perhaps it depends a bit on the quality of the
display used.

rudholm
2006-04-03, 12:43
Well, tech support says they can't see the burn-in in the photograph I took so no RMA.

I'm supposed to get a call from the "Tech Lead" tomorrow.

eq72521
2006-04-03, 13:57
Well, tech support says they can't see the burn-in in the photograph I took so no RMA.

I'm supposed to get a call from the "Tech Lead" tomorrow.

That's strange. It's quite clear to me, both on a CRT and an LCD. However, the clarity on the LCD varies depending on my viewing angle. At a normal angle it appears about like on my CRT. If I tilt the top of the display away from me the effect becomes more pronounced, but the opposite happens if I tilt it toward me. So perhaps your contact was using an LCD at a sub-optimal angle. Other monitor settings could probably mess it up as well.

rudholm
2006-04-04, 13:45
Got an RMA.

Yay.

Since I'm apparently the only one who ever had this problem, I will probably forever be known as "the burn-in guy" to SD support staff... :)

dean
2006-04-05, 15:21
On Apr 4, 2006, at 1:45 PM, rudholm wrote:
> Got an RMA.
>
> Yay.
>
> Since I'm apparently the only one who ever had this problem, I will
> probably forever be known as "the burn-in guy" to SD support staff...

Nah.

I'm sure that the problem is not burn-in. It's probably a failed
display or other component on the Squeezebox. We need to get it in
the shop here to take a look at it, it's a new one to us.

-dean

rudholm
2006-04-05, 21:11
On Apr 4, 2006, at 1:45 PM, rudholm wrote:
> Got an RMA.
>
> Yay.
>
> Since I'm apparently the only one who ever had this problem, I will
> probably forever be known as "the burn-in guy" to SD support staff...

Nah.

I'm sure that the problem is not burn-in. It's probably a failed
display or other component on the Squeezebox. We need to get it in
the shop here to take a look at it, it's a new one to us.

-dean

Well, there goes my notoriety. "He's not the burn-in guy, he's just the bad resistor array guy."

:-)

superpin
2006-07-18, 02:25
For different reasons I havent used my SB that much the last couple of months and it have been displaying the clock at 3/4 brightness. When I started to use the SB again I noticed a quite clear darkened areas of the display, lining up with the 24h clock digits. First I just blanked the display and hoped it would disappear by its own, but of course it didnt. I found this thread when I searched for a clock that moved or something, because I thought the display simply couldnt handle the rather static display of the clock, but if this isn't a common problem I am rather interested in what the investigation of "rudholms" SB resultet in? Normal characteristics of the display, a faulty SB3 or just over sensitive customers?

Gildahl
2009-07-09, 15:04
I have three SB3s, and I've begun to notice (after 4 or 5 years) that all three have noticeable, uneven fade in their displays. It's not bad enough to warrant service yet, but it does make me wonder whether the display can be replaced by the user or by Logitech. Has anyone had experience with having a display replaced on their SB? If so what was involved and how much did it cost?

Dave

aubuti
2009-07-09, 19:41
I have three SB3s, and I've begun to notice (after 4 or 5 years) ...
As a self-appointed fact-checker, I just wanted to point out that it has to be less than that, because the SB3 was only released in November 2005. Of course, that doesn't negate your observation in any way. Fwiw, I don't see any such problems in my SB3 (Jan '06) or my 2 SB2s (both mid-2005).

Gildahl
2009-07-10, 04:12
I got them right around the time they were released, but I didn't remember exactly when that was. Guess its closer to 4 years than 5 then. Anyway, I run the displays on all my units at max brightness 24/7 with a custom time/date/weather screensaver. This has produced some uneven lighting of the pixels in all of the units. Like I said, it is not terribly serious at this point, but definitely noticeable (particularly during smooth scrolling of text across the screen, where it produces a kind of ripple effect).

Dave


As a self-appointed fact-checker, I just wanted to point out that it has to be less than that, because the SB3 was only released in November 2005. Of course, that doesn't negate your observation in any way. Fwiw, I don't see any such problems in my SB3 (Jan '06) or my 2 SB2s (both mid-2005).

desjarm1
2009-07-10, 08:12
I have two units that are 34 and 35 months old. Both have been displaying clock/weather screensaver at one level below full brightness when not in use and both most definitely have display burn in.