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Mr_Sukebe
2010-01-25, 06:26
I'm hoping that someone can advise.
At the moment, I plan to use a Touch as a standalone device, i.e. connect it to an external USB drive which will host my music collection, then via SPDIF into my amp. The Touch will be able to see my network, but I don't plan to stream any music over the network.
Assuming the above, how do you access the settings on the Touch? Is it all done via the built in screen on the Touch, or can you remotely login via a webscreen on my PC to deal with things?

DaveWr
2010-01-25, 06:37
Assuming your Touch will have access to the internet via your LAN, then you will be able to configure, and remote control via MySqueezebox.com website. You will have to register at the website first obviously, but then it should be plain sailing.

Dave

aubuti
2010-01-25, 07:25
Assuming the above, how do you access the settings on the Touch? Is it all done via the built in screen on the Touch, or can you remotely login via a webscreen on my PC to deal with things?
The server running on the SB Touch is often called TinySC or TinySBS. Unlike regular SC/SBS, you cannot control or configure TinySC or TinySBS via web interface. All settings for TinySC and TinySBS are done via the SB Touch's screen, using either the touchscreen or the infrared remote interface. They are still working out the ui for the settings, and it's possible that for some of the more obscure settings it may be necessary to edit the prefs file manually using ssh.

DaveWr
2010-01-25, 08:59
I understood you can configure TinySC from MySqueezebox.com.

Or can't you fully synchronize the settings?

You obviously have to set the Touch basic networking parameters + logon details, then you should be able to use MySB for most of the detail config.

Right, wrong or sort of? ;-)

Dave

aubuti
2010-01-25, 12:18
I'll choose answer (d): I'm not sure. My understanding from what I read and my fairly limited testing of TinySBS is that the SBT itself is the main means of configuring TinySBS. But to be honest I've never tried configuring TinySBS from mysb.com. I'll give it a try tonight or tomorrow. In the long run I wouldn't be surprised if configuration becomes mysb-centric, but I would be surprised if that were the way it worked on release.

DaveWr
2010-01-25, 12:22
Thanks for that. Its probably a timing / effort thing. At the present time I suppose the focus is on delivery, not complicating the features.

Dave

aubuti
2010-01-25, 12:42
Also, remember that there's a lot less to configure when there is no web ui, no plugins, and no transcoding. And the player configuration that is available under Settings on regular SBS (crossfade, volume adjustment, screensavers, etc) will be done on the players. That still leaves some important things like tag delimiter character and such, but a lot of the usual SBS configuration never comes into play in TinySBS.

DaveWr
2010-01-25, 13:05
Surely if Tiny SC is serving SB3 /Boom type players, all the audio settings will have to created, stored and done, the 'dumb 'slim players can't know /do anything?

Dave

aubuti
2010-01-25, 13:16
I'm not clear on your point. Configuration of audio settings, screensaver, etc has always been possible directly on the SB3/Classic, Boom, etc. by using the IR remote or front panel controls. Similarly, they can be set via SBC, or the equivalent on the SB Touch or SB Radio. What you will not have with TinySBS is a TinySBS web interface that contains the settings presently on the "Players" tab on normal SBS.

Yes, the settings are stored in the server, and the server makes things like ReplayGain work, but the interface for configuring them currently exists on the players themselves and is also available via SBC or other controller. I expect that will continue to be the case.

DaveWr
2010-01-25, 14:07
It's my mistake, I have never tried setting all the audio etc parameters through the standard display / remote. I have always used the WebUI, therefore wrongly assumed with the loss of direct WebUI in TinySC, that it would be surplanted by the MySqueezebox.com Player WebUI.

Sorry for the confusion, at least now I know.

Dave

aubuti
2010-01-25, 20:56
That's the thing, isn't it? There are so many different ways to use SBs that one person's use model is different from the next.

Anyway, tonight I got TinySBS going on the Touch, and then connected it to mysb.com. As I expected, I don't see any way whatsoever to configure TinySBS from mysb, at least not at present. In fact, just like the Radio, there's very little that can be configured on the SBT _player_ via mysb, but less the server.

As for why I think this may change in the future, see comment #9 by Matt Weldon concerning bug 14004 (https://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14004). Even though that discussion is about configuring player menus, not TinySBS settings, I think it may give some hints at least about what the thinking was around the time of the SB Radio release in Sept '09. But for the near future I am fairly certain that configuration will be via the SBT's menus, plus some server.prefs editing for the more obscure settings.

DaveWr
2010-01-26, 03:04
Well thanks for that, I am surprised and educated.

We will have to see what time brings... You are right ther are always many ways to do someting with Squeeze stuff.

Thanks again

Dave

JJZolx
2010-01-26, 03:38
Assuming the above, how do you access the settings on the Touch? Is it all done via the built in screen on the Touch, or can you remotely login via a webscreen on my PC to deal with things?

Unlike Squeezebox Server running on a computer, there is no web server on the built-in server. Settings are accessed via the touch screen (it also works using the IR remote). However, the number of server settings is a fraction of that available on the full server. I doubt that everyone currently running the server on a computer or NAS will be satisfied with the limited number of options.

Mr_Sukebe
2010-01-26, 04:12
Unlike Squeezebox Server running on a computer, there is no web server on the built-in server. Settings are accessed via the touch screen (it also works using the IR remote). However, the number of server settings is a fraction of that available on the full server. I doubt that everyone currently running the server on a computer or NAS will be satisfied with the limited number of options.

Maybe I should be a little more specific in my questions about the functionality I'd like to see. Can I change the following on the Touch using it's touchscreen:
1. Screen brightness
2. Text size
3. Disable volume control and set it to max
4. Change the choice of screen to display the track Title, Artist and Album
5. Enable shuffle by genre
6. Listen by genre
Those are the most critical things I use.

JJZolx
2010-01-26, 05:02
Maybe I should be a little more specific in my questions about the functionality I'd like to see. Can I change the following on the Touch using it's touchscreen:

1. Screen brightness

Yes. You can either set it on manual or automatic brightness adjustment. Manual adjustment is through Home > Settings > Brightness > Manual Brightness.


2. Text size

No, there is no adjustment of text size, except that the touch interface uses smaller text and about six lines per screen and the IR interface uses larger text and four lines.


3. Disable volume control and set it to max

This hasn't been implemented on the Touch. I don't know why.

https://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14807


4. Change the choice of screen to display the track Title, Artist and Album

There are very few (maybe even no) options to format the information seen on the various screens. However, there are five Now Playing screens, changed by either touching the screen or using the Now Playing button on the remote:



Artwork + text. Artwork sized to maybe 1/3rd the screen width, and then text displaying track title, artist, album name, one per line.

Artwork only. Fit to the full height of the screen. No text or buttons or controls of any kind on the screen.

Text only. Like #1, but no cover art, so more horizontal room for the text.

A spectrum analyzer, something like that available as a background to Now Playing on the SB Classic. Text showing track title, artist, album above.

Analog VU meters. Text showing track title, artist, album above.

All five screens have both touch and IR variations. The IR screens have no buttons and use a larger font.


5. Enable shuffle by genre

You can easily enable shuffle, so if you play a genre, sure. Or use Random Mix. All of the settings available in the web interface for Random Mix are available in the Touch's user interface.


6. Listen by genre

Yes. All of library browsing modes that are available on the SB Classic - by artist, album, genre, etc.

Mnyb
2010-01-26, 06:03
3. Disable volume control and set it to max
This hasn't been implemented on the Touch. I don't know why.

https://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14807


.

Woa, thanks voted directly I depend on fixed volume I use the digital out and have some DTS or dolby tracks too.
So I'll be prepared to have the mysterious blue smoke coming out of my speakers if I'll accidentally have the volume not 100% and play one of those DTS tracks, If any signal manipulations going on with a DTS track you will hear white noise ?

Mr_Sukebe
2010-01-27, 06:25
My thanks for the clarification.
Guess I'll just set the volume at 100% and avoid fiddling with it.

usch
2010-01-27, 08:33
No, there is no adjustment of text size, except that the touch interface uses smaller text and about six lines per screen and the IR interface uses larger text and four lines.
Can you set the type of display manually, or does it only rely on the proximity sensor? For example, what if somebody is sitting close to the Touch, while I want to read the Now Playing screen from the other side of the room?

aubuti
2010-01-27, 08:59
In my experience that person would have to have to be practically sitting on the Touch, or have his/her hand poised millimeters from the screen, to trigger the smaller font.

JJZolx
2010-01-27, 11:29
Can you set the type of display manually, or does it only rely on the proximity sensor? For example, what if somebody is sitting close to the Touch, while I want to read the Now Playing screen from the other side of the room?

I don't believe the proximity sensor is being used at all. Switching between the two is based on the type of input - a touch or an IR signal. It's as simple as is gets.

During the beta the proximity sensor was tried and various logic applied for things like using the IR in close proximity and switching to the touch screen as the sensor was tripped (before actually being touched). It resulted in some odd behavior, like the screen switching back and forth if you were using the IR at a distance near the limit of the sensor.

One disadvantage to the current behavior is that if you've used the touch interface and then sit back across the room, the display will stay in the small/touch size. You need to find the remote and use it in order to get the display to switch back to the large/IR size. Suggestions were to have a 'default' size that the screen falls back to, but I think it's been decided to leave it simple for the time being.

aubuti
2010-01-27, 11:43
I don't believe the proximity sensor is being used at all. Switching between the two is based on the type of input - a touch or an IR signal. It's as simple as is gets.
I had forgotten that the sensor isn't being used at present, but that is indeed the case.

usch
2010-01-27, 20:39
In my experience that person would have to have to be practically sitting on the Touch
Would a cat sitting on the Touch be sufficient, too? :)


or have his/her hand poised millimeters from the screen, to trigger the smaller font.
In that case there would be the opposite problem. I would normally prefer the smallest font I can still read at a given distance, to get as much information on the screen as possible.


I don't believe the proximity sensor is being used at all. Switching between the two is based on the type of input - a touch or an IR signal. It's as simple as is gets.
To be honest, that's actually be the best solution IMO. Or maybe the second best. There should simply be an IR command or menu item to switch between font sizes, like on the old players. How does the Touch react when you press the "Size" button on the old remote?

aubuti
2010-01-27, 20:57
In that case there would be the opposite problem. I would normally prefer the smallest font I can still read at a given distance, to get as much information on the screen as possible.
Then touch the screen, and you get the small font.


To be honest, that's actually be the best solution IMO. Or maybe the second best. There should simply be an IR command or menu item to switch between font sizes, like on the old players. How does the Touch react when you press the "Size" button on the old remote?
If it's on small fonts, any IR command -- including the "Size" button on the old remote -- makes it go to large fonts. And if it's on large fonts, any touch of the screen makes it go to small fonts. Isn't that simpler than dedicating a specific menu item or IR command to do the same thing?

Btw, I forgot to mention that there is a setting to override the default settings so that you can have the SBT always display the large fonts, or always display the small fonts. Or if you want to drive someone crazy, even reverse the two and display small fonts for IR input and large fonts for touch input :-/

JJZolx
2010-01-27, 21:10
In that case there would be the opposite problem. I would normally prefer the smallest font I can still read at a given distance, to get as much information on the screen as possible.

There _are_ two settings options for size, but I don't expect many people to use them. Under Settings > Screen > Select Skin, there are:

Touch Skin
- Large Text Skin
- Small Text Skin (default)

Remote Skin
- Large Text Skin (default)
- Small Text Skin

If you were to set Touch Skin to 'Large' then it also means you get no buttons or controls on the screen. You can still do many things through swiping and context menus, but overall it's really not usable in touch mode.

However, you might set the Remote Skin to 'Small', in which it never switches out of the small text skin. Some people might prefer that for the greater information on screen while using the remote, at the expense of visibility from a distance. Some beta testers have said they prefer this. I can only assume that they don't sit far from the screen, or else have very good eyesight.

JJZolx
2010-01-27, 21:17
How does the Touch react when you press the "Size" button on the old remote?

Good question. Looks like it's mapped to 'Current Playlist' at the moment. I filed a bug a while back (see comment #3), but looks like it's been given very low priority (P5/minor).

https://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13564

I'm not crazy about how the Brightness button has been mapped, either. It takes you into the Settings > Brightness menu instead of actually adjusting the brightness.

Please add your comments to the bug.

usch
2010-01-28, 07:05
Then touch the screen, and you get the small font.
Hm. If I have to walk over to the unit and touch it every time after using the remote, that makes the remote kind of pointless, doesn't it?


There _are_ two settings options for size, but I don't expect many people to use them. Under Settings > Screen > Select Skin, there are:

Touch Skin
- Large Text Skin
- Small Text Skin (default)

Remote Skin
- Large Text Skin (default)
- Small Text Skin

Well, that's almost perfect then. It would be completely perfect if there was a third setting: "Idle Skin" which would kick in after some time without any user activity, like the "Idle brightness" on the old players.


However, you might set the Remote Skin to 'Small', in which it never switches out of the small text skin. Some people might prefer that for the greater information on screen while using the remote, at the expense of visibility from a distance. Some beta testers have said they prefer this. I can only assume that they don't sit far from the screen, or else have very good eyesight.

I've tried the Large Text Skin with the desktop SqueezePlay and found it not too useful. 30% of the screen are lost to pointless information (What is the big black bar saying "Now Playing" good for? I can tell that it's playing because it is showing the Now Playing screen and the progress bar is moving! And the progress bar could have been much smaller, too.) and the remaining space is much too small to display track/album/artist without truncation or the need to scroll.

Some more questions, while I'm looking at it:

- Does the Small Text Skin always have "buttons" which take up valuable space, or do they appear only when the touch panel is actually used?
- Can you set the display to "scroll once, then stop" like you could on the old players?
- There don't seem to be any display settings for SqueezePlay on the player page of the SBS web interface. How do you display track numbers, year, and genre?

These might all be stupid questions to you beta testers, but I'm trying to find out what to expect so that I am not too disappointed if I buy a Touch. :)

JJZolx
2010-01-28, 15:45
- Does the Small Text Skin always have "buttons" which take up valuable space, or do they appear only when the touch panel is actually used?

Yes, they're always on screen. During the beta, hiding them was attempted when using the remote within the range of the proximity sensor (the two skins were at one time referred to as '3 ft' and '10 ft'), but I think it got too complicated. It led to things like the button bar disappearing and not coming back when switching into touch mode.


- Can you set the display to "scroll once, then stop" like you could on the old players?

No, there are no settings. In Now Playing the scrolling (if necessary) is continuous, with a pause (scroll speed and pause duration also not configurable). If more than one of the lines needs to scroll, then they're done in sequence, which works well.

In most of the touch interface there is no scrolling at all. I do see it in Now Playing and in the title bar at the top. For example, if you browse into an artist and the name doesn't fit the title bar, then it scrolls. But album and track listings in the menu do not - they get cut off. In practice this isn't a big deal, as there's usually plenty of available text to tell what's what.

The IR interface is a little different because there's always a 'currently selected' item in the menu. The highlighted item does scroll, if need be.


- There don't seem to be any display settings for SqueezePlay on the player page of the SBS web interface. How do you display track numbers, year, and genre?

If you're running with a full Squeezebox Server (with the web interface) then the title format selected for the server (Settings > Interface > Title Format) will be the title format used on the Touch. If you're running with the built in server (TinySC) then you can't set the server's title format, so (at the current time) you're stuck with the default TITLE and nothing more.

usch
2010-01-31, 14:17
Yes, they're always on screen. During the beta, hiding them was attempted when using the remote within the range of the proximity sensor (the two skins were at one time referred to as '3 ft' and '10 ft'), but I think it got too complicated. It led to things like the button bar disappearing and not coming back when switching into touch mode.
I still see that in SqueezePlay when I switch skins, I have to close and restart it to get the buttons back. In that case I'll prefer to have them always on, of course.


In most of the touch interface there is no scrolling at all. I do see it in Now Playing and in the title bar at the top.
A constantly scrolling Now Playing screen is annoying enough. Probably it is just me, but I really hate moving displays. I've disabled Flash, Quicktime, and animated GIFs in my browser, and all my SBs are set to "scroll once, then stop". If there is really no way to disable scrolling I might have to resort to the artwork only screen. :(


If you're running with a full Squeezebox Server (with the web interface) then the title format selected for the server (Settings > Interface > Title Format) will be the title format used on the Touch.
That's not ideal (it should be a player setting), but I think I could get used to it. It doesn't seem to work with SqueezePlay though, I only get the title no matter what.

What about browsing? Can you display the year along with the album title and artist?

While I am experimenting with SqueezePlay there is one thing that drives me mad. Normally, clicking on a menu item opens the next menu level, like pressing the right arrow on the remote. The only execption is when I browse into an album to the track level, where clicking suddenly means "play" and kills my current playlist, while I have to click+hold to get the menu that lets me select whether I want to play the track immediately, play next, or add it to the end of the playlist. Does the Touch behave the same? And can this be reversed, so that a simple click opens the menu, while click+hold plays the track imediately?

toby10
2010-01-31, 14:30
.......
While I am experimenting with SqueezePlay there is one thing that drives me mad. Normally, clicking on a menu item opens the next menu level, like pressing the right arrow on the remote. The only execption is when I browse into an album to the track level, where clicking suddenly means "play" and kills my current playlist, while I have to click+hold to get the menu that lets me select whether I want to play the track immediately, play next, or add it to the end of the playlist. Does the Touch behave the same? And can this be reversed, so that a simple click opens the menu, while click+hold plays the track imediately?

Yes, Touch behaves the same way.
No, there is no way to turn this off nor change the functionality of click+hold.

usch
2010-01-31, 17:01
*sigh*
Who designs these user interfaces? Even if you intended to click+hold, you might slip and release the button/screen too early, accidentally wiping your playlist. That SqueezePlay stuff may be the latest technology, but it still has to go a long way in terms of usability. Data loss with a single click is just not acceptable. I might sit down and learn LUA just to hack the UI at this point.

Another quirk I came across: When I use SqueezePlay to control another player and switch that player off, SqueezePlay shows the Power Off screensaver. So far, so good. But from there I can't seem to get into the settings menu to select a different player. How do you do that on the Touch?

toby10
2010-02-01, 04:58
*sigh*
Who designs these user interfaces? Even if you intended to click+hold, you might slip and release the button/screen too early, accidentally wiping your playlist. That SqueezePlay stuff may be the latest technology, but it still has to go a long way in terms of usability. Data loss with a single click is just not acceptable. I might sit down and learn LUA just to hack the UI at this point.......

In Beta I suggested a "safety" feature that could be enabled/disabled at will to prevent just that scenario.
Simply turning off "touch to play" would solve it. Then any screen touch (quick tap or long hold) would both simply bring up the context menu which includes Play and Add to Playlist (and all other context menu items).

usch
2010-02-01, 08:36
I guess there is no *.map file anymore where you could simply configure the buttons to your personal preferences ... would this have to be a change on the client or on the server?

krochat
2010-02-03, 18:50
<snip..>
One disadvantage to the current behavior is that if you've used the touch interface and then sit back across the room, the display will stay in the small/touch size. You need to find the remote and use it in order to get the display to switch back to the large/IR size. Suggestions were to have a 'default' size that the screen falls back to, but I think it's been decided to leave it simple for the time being.

What happens to the Touch font size if you're using a Controller, Web interface on PC, iPeng, or other network controller?

Thanks,
Kim

JJZolx
2010-02-03, 19:00
What happens to the Touch font size if you're using a Controller, Web interface on PC, iPeng, or other network controller?

I've never tried it, but since the change in size is keyed only by the touch or IR input, I'd assume that it stays in whatever mode it was in when you use another means of controlling it. So if it boots up in the small font and you never point the IR at it and press a button, it likely stays small. If you want it to always be large (or always small) you can set both of the text size settings mentioned above in comment #24 to the same thing and it will never change size.

JJZolx
2010-02-27, 18:21
- Can you set the display to "scroll once, then stop" like you could on the old players?

An option to continuously scroll text, scroll once, or not scroll at all has just been added for the Now Playing screen.

https://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11761