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mecouc
2009-12-16, 04:29
I'm thinking of getting a Touch as I like the idea of not having to keep my PC on all the time (I'm considering a Sheevaplug + SB3 from Ebay as another option).

If the Touch runs linux, then presumably you have to wait for it to boot up when you turn it on. How long does this take? I don't want to have to leave my Touch turned on all the time because it takes 3 minutes to start up.

How much power does it consume? I've looked, but can't see this information.

Slightly less important, presumably it has to be shut down politely too, and can't just be flicked off at the wall?

JohnSwenson
2009-12-16, 12:07
If I remember correctly its something like 20 seconds to boot up, not instantaneous but not 3 minutes either.

The power draw is very similar to the SB3, about 5 watts that can go up to 7 or so when working hard. It comes with a supply that can provide considerably more than this because it also has to provide power over the USB port for bus powered drives. I think the supply is rated for 15 watts max.

You shut it down by pulling the plug, its designed for that. The one thing that can cause a problem is an external drive, they usually do not come with file systems that allow them to handle "pulling the plug" gracefully. There is an "eject USB drive" button for this purpose. So if you are using a drive plugged into the USB port its probably a good idea to "eject the drive" before unplugging the Touch. (even if you leave it physically connected)

John S.

peterw
2009-12-16, 12:52
The power draw is very similar to the SB3, about 5 watts that can go up to 7 or so when working hard.

Maybe with a USB drive attached, but when acting as a simple Squeezebox player, my beta unit (fairly early hardware build, but I don't know of significant changes in later units) only draws 2 watts RMS when idle (measured between the power supply and wall outlet), which is roughly half what an SB3 uses. The SB Touch uses less energy with its display on than a Squeezebox Receiver!

Philip Meyer
2009-12-16, 17:26
>You shut it down by pulling the plug, its designed for that.
I'm not so sure about that. The power cable is right next to the USB socket, which is kind of awkward at best.

I find inserting/extracting a USB stick quite awkward (especially as I tend to do unintended actions on the touch screen whilst turning the device around to work out what way round the USB stick is meant to be inserted).

I think that pulling the power cord out and back in is going to cause a bit of wear over time. It reminds me of my ZX Spectrum days :-(

I can't understand why there's still no physical device On/Off power switch. Every device in the world has one, except Squeezeboxes. TV's, HiFi equipment, mobile phones, iPods...

There is a reset button, which I wasn't aware of at first - it sits just above the power socket, a tiny slightly recessed round microswitch. So if the device locks up, you can press it to power cycle, or hold in for a while to do a factory reset.

But I still like to power the device off every so often, eg, when I know I'm going to be away for a week or so.

JJZolx
2009-12-16, 21:20
37 seconds to boot without a USB drive or SD card. Probably longer if it has to start up the internal server.

No, it's not designed to have the power unplugged and plugged in. That's what power switches are for.

JohnSwenson
2009-12-17, 01:10
OK, I wasn't actually recommending physically pulling the plug as the preferred method of shutting down the power, more as a metaphor for stopping the electrical flow, however you actually do that. The main point is that you don't have to go through a software shutdown procedure to safely shut it down. The only exception would be if you have a USB drive attached and that can be handled with the eject USB button.

John S.

mecouc
2009-12-17, 01:59
Thank you, all. The lack of a power switch seems a design fault in all the Squeezeboxes (though I suppose it also removes a point of failure). One reason I don't use my current SB3 very often is that the power lead has usually fallen down the back of the furniture it lives on because pulling it out is the only way to turn it off - the other is that it requires my PC to be left on all day.

It sounds as though the Touch helps with the PC not being on, but fails due to the lack of a power switch! I accept a boot-up time is inevitable for this sort of device, but it's a big practical trade-off for something that would replace the kitchen radio/CD player, which has a boot-up time of about 0.5 seconds.

aubuti
2009-12-17, 07:11
One reason I don't use my current SB3 very often is that the power lead has usually fallen down the back of the furniture it lives on because pulling it out is the only way to turn it off - the other is that it requires my PC to be left on all day.
As for your current SB3, you could switch over to mysqueezebox.com when you want to turn off your pc. And believe me, I don't mean to dismiss energy conservation efforts, but the SB3 only draws about 4w when idling. Do you also unplug your microwave, tv, router, and other appliances when not in use?

DaveWr
2009-12-17, 08:20
Do you also unplug your microwave, tv, router, and other appliances when not in use?

In the UK man people have been investing in 'standby savers', remote switches that disconnect mains from multiple devices. Energy Star devices have to achieve standby figures of 1W or less. I don't disconnect any of my Squeeze devices (too inconvenient), but do switch off DAC, CD and amplifiers, They consume very significant standby power, over 12W per device!

Dave

thomasfoerster
2009-12-17, 08:33
Actually that's what I do..

Almost all appliances are off when I'm not at home.
Well, the fridge has to stay on, and that's a biggy.
But imho this stand-by-humbug wastes much too much energy world-wide.
Those multi-outlet power thingies I have to use now are so ugly!

Power switches should be mandatory, that's what I think.

aubuti
2009-12-17, 09:10
Power switches should be mandatory, that's what I think.
And not just any power switch, but a switch that actually cuts the power, like your power strip does. The power switch on most devices with remote controls only puts them into standby, so adding that kind of switch to an SB gains nothing.

iPhone
2009-12-17, 12:37
Actually that's what I do..

Almost all appliances are off when I'm not at home.
Well, the fridge has to stay on, and that's a biggy.
But imho this stand-by-humbug wastes much too much energy world-wide.
Those multi-outlet power thingies I have to use now are so ugly!

Power switches should be mandatory, that's what I think.

The amount of energy a Squeezebox in Standby uses is insignificant. Also what good is a wireless LAN device that has to be turned on by a power switch to use it when it has remotes, wireless controllers, and can be used from a WebUI. Kind of defeats the purpose of the device.

If you just have to turn yours off, plug it into a power strip and turn it on and off manually (that is if you believe in the global warning myth).

toby10
2009-12-17, 13:48
The amount of energy a Squeezebox in Standby uses is insignificant. Also what good is a wireless LAN device that has to be turned on by a power switch to use it when it has remotes, wireless controllers, and can be used from a WebUI. Kind of defeats the purpose of the device.

If you just have to turn yours off, plug it into a power strip and turn it on and off manually (that is if you believe in the global warning myth).

+1

For that matter, if one really dislikes power strips, plug all such devices into a wall outlet that is controlled by a light switch.
No more ugly, no more polar bear drownings, everyone is happy! :)

thomasfoerster
2009-12-17, 14:09
As much as I dislike your "global warming myth", I really appreciate the light switch idea...
And, even if it was a myth - that doesn't mean I should have more than my necessary share in resource exploitation.
What's your point in turning down the idea of a power switch for those who think it came in handy?

DaveWr
2009-12-17, 15:33
Without trying to seem Continentist?, our American colleagues have cheap energy. Only recently has considerations of energy saving become an issue. Forget Global Warming the US is no longer self sufficient in energy, so you will have to change as the global economic energy situation starts to have an effect on the local pricing policy.

Product lines that depend on international sales need to meet energy conscious criteria, or limited sales. It's all about common sense, not wasting resources if there is no need to. It is interesting about Europeans on this Forum very interested in WOL and server sleep issues.

I am reasonably sure that time will increase agreement on these issues, economic ans social pressures, independent of global warming.

On the issue of remote standby switches, as has been said, you have to switch multiple devices with one switch or else the switch consumes as much standby power as the devices themselves.

toby10
2009-12-17, 16:27
Without trying to seem Continentist?, our American colleagues have cheap energy. Only recently has considerations of energy saving become an issue. Forget Global Warming the US is no longer self sufficient in energy, so you will have to change as the global economic energy situation starts to have an effect on the local pricing policy....

AMEN! We should have been building small nukes all along, like France. What are they up to now, like 70% nuke power? They did it (and continue to do it) right in regards to power generation.

For the power switch at your AV devices: another option to consider is a combo power center + power conditioning + surge protector system. I use Furman, but there are plenty to choose from. Mine has two switches, one is the main cut off for the entire unit (four circuits), the second is a three circuit (six outlet) delayed & sequenced power ON/OFF.

Furman PS-8R (series II)
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=PS-8R_II

Philip Meyer
2009-12-17, 17:00
>The amount of energy a Squeezebox in Standby uses is insignificant.
It's not insignificant. But I wasn't thinking from a wastage of energy point of view.

Sometimes I just don't need or even want the device on. eg. if I am going away for a week, I don't want my device to be triggered from an alarm to play music all week. Chances are my PC will be off anyway. I could go through the menus and turn off all alarms, but then I'd have to remember to turn them back on again, whereas simply turning off/on the device is easier. There's just no need for it to be on.

As my power strip is under the desk, and doesn't have individual on/off switches, I'd have to fiddle with plugs under the desk (so I yank the power cable out of the back of the unit instead), which is cumbersome.

Why is there such a resistance to a simple on/off rocker on the back of the Squeezebox units? Everything else in the world has one.

bpa
2009-12-17, 18:45
Why is there such a resistance to a simple on/off rocker on the back of the Squeezebox units? Everything else in the world has one.


Radio has an on/off button which can do true power off - Touch could have had one - perhaps there were design/cost issues.

peterw
2009-12-17, 20:35
Radio has an on/off button which can do true power off - Touch could have had one - perhaps there were design/cost issues.

It doesn't do true power off, but it does come close. When "really off" but still plugged in, my pre-production Radio (without a battery) uses about one third of a watt. That is, my power meter which measures to the 1/100 amp fluctuates between 0.00 and 0.01 amps at 120V. Call it 0.005 A (sorry I'm too lazy to hook up my normal multimeter that would give me more precise current measurements), and that's 0.6 VA. My meter says the power factor is just shy of 60, so that's about 0.36 watts (my meter reports true watts RMS but doesn't report fractions of watts).

To hit 0 watts you need to unplug the power supply.

If a bunch of folks want true physical power switches, well, build 'em. All you need is a couple right-sized barrel plugs (an M and a F), an inline switch, a 2-conductor wire, and some solder. Probably a couple bucks from Mouser. Beta testers remember that our pre-production units use different sized connectors than the final retail units (the pre-prodution gear uses the same size connector as the SB3, which is dangerous since the Radio power supply puts out higher voltage; Logitech, as you might expect, was thoughtful enough to change the connectors on the retail gear to avoid that problem).

Philip, re: "a simple on/off rocker... Everything else in the world has one.", my TVs, DVD players, laptop, even the dishwasher have software-driven power buttons. A couple of my CD players and my new AV receiver have true power buttons (though the AV receiver has a more prominent On/Standby button), but most of the gear I've bought in the last year save for the sub-$20 kitchen appliances have had soft power switches and don't truly switch off when plugged in.

Philip Meyer
2009-12-18, 00:55
>It doesn't do true power off, but it does come close. When "really off"
>but still plugged in, my pre-production Radio (without a battery) uses
>about one third of a watt.
>
Yeah, I was really talking about Touch - Radio is better as at least it has a very-close-to-off mode.

In this mode, I assume alarms don't work, and the unit can't be woken up?

>Philip, re: "a simple on/off rocker... Everything else in the world has
>one.", my TVs, DVD players, laptop, even the dishwasher have
>software-driven power buttons.
>
All of my TVs and hifi equipment (except for my Transporter) have a true power off. I think there was a change in law to say that all equipment required one, as too many devices had unnecessary stand-by modes that were inefficient.

I turn my Transporter off at the wall when not in use now, because it doesn't need to be on when my Amp is switched off, and my son plays with the knobs if he sees the screen light up.

The only device that I have with no power-off is SkyHD, but that truly needs to be on (standby) all the time to ensure programs are recorded.

bpa
2009-12-18, 01:31
It doesn't do true power off, but it does come close. When "really off" but still plugged in, my pre-production Radio (without a battery) uses about one third of a watt.

I should have measured before writing that - I had assumed like boom there was a large cap.

As a workaround to unplugging the socket but still have power off - user could use a remote controlled socket which can learn the power off code from the remote (but then I suppose the remote controlled socket is also using a tiny amount of energy).
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=265671

sebp
2009-12-19, 08:15
AMEN! We should have been building small nukes all along, like France. What are they up to now, like 70% nuke power? They did it (and continue to do it) right in regards to power generation.
Clearly off topic, but well, we currently have 3 or 4 nuclear power plants down for maintenance (and maintenance on these plants requires months if not years), and have to run fossil fuel based power plants to handle the energy consumption overhead due to the cold wave of the latest weeks.

Unlike many other (northern) European countries that didn't want to rely solely on nuclear energy, France is really late in the domain of clean energy...

(BTW, it's 78%)

peterw
2009-12-19, 09:07
I should have measured before writing that - I had assumed like boom there was a large cap.

I think there is a large capacitor in Radio to keep the clock running during power outages & wake it before the next alarm, but I think that's all the supercap provides.

sxr71
2009-12-19, 19:22
>You shut it down by pulling the plug, its designed for that.
I'm not so sure about that. The power cable is right next to the USB socket, which is kind of awkward at best.

I find inserting/extracting a USB stick quite awkward (especially as I tend to do unintended actions on the touch screen whilst turning the device around to work out what way round the USB stick is meant to be inserted).

I think that pulling the power cord out and back in is going to cause a bit of wear over time. It reminds me of my ZX Spectrum days :-(

I can't understand why there's still no physical device On/Off power switch. Every device in the world has one, except Squeezeboxes. TV's, HiFi equipment, mobile phones, iPods...

There is a reset button, which I wasn't aware of at first - it sits just above the power socket, a tiny slightly recessed round microswitch. So if the device locks up, you can press it to power cycle, or hold in for a while to do a factory reset.

But I still like to power the device off every so often, eg, when I know I'm going to be away for a week or so.


I think the eject button should be an eject for one press and power off for 2 presses.

toby10
2009-12-20, 07:19
Clearly off topic, but well, we currently have 3 or 4 nuclear power plants down for maintenance (and maintenance on these plants requires months if not years), and have to run fossil fuel based power plants to handle the energy consumption overhead due to the cold wave of the latest weeks.

Unlike many other (northern) European countries that didn't want to rely solely on nuclear energy, France is really late in the domain of clean energy...

(BTW, it's 78%)

Yes, we are generations away from being fossil free (I say this living in the heart of coal country). But the physical footprint of a nuke plant vs it's output is incredible and the fossil fuel required for a nukes downtime vs it's output during non-fossil uptime is a drop in the bucket. :)

BOT: Touch's USB, power connector, Reset button are all too close to each other IMO.
- Reset sits directly above power connection and is so close the button access is partially blocked by the power connector.
- USB port and power connector are so close that if one uses a fatter USB device (like those ones with grippy/rubber shrouds) the two actually push against each other. Over time this could possibly cause loose connections or possibly even a broken connection.
- Location of USB input and power connection should be swapped. Power is on the outside (last connection) and this further hampers connecting USB devices in a Plug & Play environment.

A simple USB dongle/adapter would pretty much solve both USB issues.

I am no CE designer so where to move them or position them I have no clue! :)
There are likely a number of sound design reasons why they are located exactly where they are. I can only relate what I see and have experienced while using the incredible Touch device in comparison to other CE devices with similar inputs and usage.

peterw
2009-12-20, 19:18
I think the eject button should be an eject for one press and power off for 2 presses.

Currently it seems that the Touch doesn't have a low-power, OS off/suspended, "really off" mode the way Radio does (and there's already a very easy-to-find/use Off button on the Home screen). If Touch is plugged into the wall, it's using 2 watts and running SqueezeOS/Linux. This brings up an interesting UI problem -- turn a Touch "off" and it's still running, and the USB and SD storage devices are still mounted. That's probably often what you want, as you don't want to stop the music playing in another room just because you're done listening where you are. The UI problem is that I expect many people will expect that Off = "really off" + disks umounted & safe to unplug.

m1abrams
2010-06-10, 06:50
All of my TVs and hifi equipment (except for my Transporter) have a true power off. I think there was a change in law to say that all equipment required one, as too many devices had unnecessary stand-by modes that were inefficient.

The only device that I have with no power-off is SkyHD, but that truly needs to be on (standby) all the time to ensure programs are recorded.

Really so when you turn your TV off or other hifi device off then you can NOT turn them back on with a remote right? Cause if they are truly off the remote will NOT be able to turn them back on.

Also here is a list of devices that do not have a true power off switch in my house:
TV
VCR
DVD player
Coffee maker
Fridge
Washing Machine and Dryer
Every Clock in the house
Microwave
Stove
Toaster Oven
Tivo

Keep in mind most items with a remote will not have a "TRUE" off state if the user expects to be able to power it on with the remote. Also many devices that use a "soft-touch" button also require power at all times to make that button work. Devices with clocks need power to maintain time. Some devices also stay powered to some level to reduce start-up time. My TV for instance takes forever to power up after I have unplugged it compared to from its soft-off state.

Philip Meyer
2010-06-10, 13:45
>Really so when you turn your TV off or other hifi device off then you
>can NOT turn them back on with a remote right?
Yes, if I press the Off button on the physical box, then no remote would ever turn them back on.
If I press the standby button to put devices into standby, then a remote can switch the device back on.

That's how most consumer devices are.

m1abrams
2010-06-10, 15:22
>Really so when you turn your TV off or other hifi device off then you
>can NOT turn them back on with a remote right?


That's how most consumer devices are.

I just gave you a list of consumer devices in my home that do NOT have physical power switches. So I would argue that "most consumer devices" do not have a physical switch to disconnect power anymore. Really I would not want to spend the extra money to have that switch when unplugging the device does EXACTLY the same thing. If you want a switch then plug it into a power strip with a switch on it.

Do you really flip the switch on your TV every time you turn it on and off? If you do then you fall into a very small community of people. I know if my TV had that and I flipped it to turn it off, my wife would kill me!

Philip Meyer
2010-06-10, 17:11
>I just gave you a list of consumer devices in my home that do NOT have
>physical power switches. So I would argue that "most consumer devices"
>do not have a physical switch to disconnect power anymore.
>
All components in my HiFi rack (Amp, CD player, Tape Deck) have physical power switches, except my Transporter. I have 3 TV's, and each have a power off, and my Surround sound amp on the TV stand also has a physical power off. My DVD player doesn't, but it has very low power consumption in standby. I don't often use it though, so turn it off at the power socket.

In July 2006, the British Government announced it would outlaw televisions and video players that exceed the maximum standby-mode power consumption standard (1 watt).

In July 2007, California's 2005 appliance standards came into effect, limiting external power supply standby power to 0.5 watts.

In July 2008, the European Commission accepted a proposal to reduce standby power consumption to either 1 W (if there is a reactivation function) or 2 W (if there is an information or status display) by 2010, which will be halved to 0.5 and 1 watt, respectively, by 2012.

I think there was a strong suggestion by the European Commission that devices should have a 0W hard power off switch, but not made law - there is still some leeway on that.

Squeezebox devices don't achieve any of these requirements, so I think Logitech are breaking European laws. Not sure exactly what that means, but it can't be a good thing.


>Really I would not want to spend the extra money to have that switch when
>unplugging the device does EXACTLY the same thing.
>
I'm not so sure it is exactly the same. I think power switches on devices are built to not put as much strain on descrete components - you're less likely to damage something than cutting the power (can cause spikes). Also, it's a lot less convenient to power off at a wall socket. eg. plugs can be behind furniture units, etc.

Some people pull the cable out of the back of SB's to stop standby (vampire) power consumption. I'd have to do that to switch off my bedroom SB3, because the wall socket is located within a cupboard and the cable comes through a small hole to a bedside table.

A Touch on my desk has it's power socket underneath the desk on a 4-way power block, which doesn't have individual power switches, and I wouldn't want to turn off other devices connected to that power strip. I had been pulling the power cable out the back of the Touch, but it's very awkward (esp. with a USB stick inserted), and definitely causes wear and tear on the connection.

>Do you really flip the switch on your TV every time you turn it on and
>off?
The power switch is prominent on the top of the TV. I turn it off at night, and whenever I leave the house. During the day, I sometimes switch it to standby, but often it is easier to press the TV power off button than locate the remote control!

It's not just about saving power consumption (and thus saving money). It also prevents unecessary heat, and reduces fire risk.
>If you do then you fall into a very small community of people.
I don't think so - I think a lot of people physically turn off devices at night or if they are going to be out for long periods.

Phil

m1abrams
2010-06-10, 17:43
Power switch almost always cuts power closest to the main power inlet usually just after the main fuse. This is the same as pulling the plug and any spikes that may happen from pulling the plug would occur from a switch. If the power switch is further behind components such as a transformer you will be consuming power plus in the case of a transformer you WANT to switch the power before the transformer to use the transformer as a slow start.

Requiring 0W standby mode IMHO is plain dumb, because what will happen is people will just not turn the device off because the penalty to turn it on is too high. People who are concerned about consumption can easily obtain that goal by adding a switch to your device such as a switch extension cord.

Now encouraging companies to reduce their standby consumption in order to get a "GREEN" tag is IMHO a better way to handle the situation.

As for devices with power bricks like the SB3 even if you had a power switch ON the SB3 it would still consume power in the power brick itself and you would need to switch or unplug the power brick. Even if you unplug the brick from the SB3 but still leave the brick plugged in you will consume power.

m1abrams
2010-06-10, 17:46
>If you do then you fall into a very small community of people.[/color]
I don't think so - I think a lot of people physically turn off devices at night or if they are going to be out for long periods.

Phil

Many standby devices are consuming less than 1W, this hardly qualifies as something that could be a heater! Plus fire risk is just as high with a device plugged in and truly OFF as one plugged in and in standby. The OFF device could have a faulty switch which do wear out MUCH faster than soft-switches with relays.

peterw
2010-06-10, 19:48
In July 2008, the European Commission accepted a proposal to reduce standby power consumption to either 1 W (if there is a reactivation function) or 2 W (if there is an information or status display) by 2010...
Squeezebox devices don't achieve any of these requirements, so I think Logitech are breaking European laws.

Radio meets EC1275, as does Controller. Touch appears to with its default settings (showing the clock screen when off; with "screen dark" when off it does not). None of the "IP3K" players meet the new EU standards.

JohnSwenson
2010-06-11, 11:38
Radio meets EC1275, as does Controller. Touch appears to with its default settings (showing the clock screen when off; with "screen dark" when off it does not). None of the "IP3K" players meet the new EU standards.

So you are saying the "screen off" screensaver takes more power than the "digital clock" screensaver? Now THAT is interesting. The only way I could come up with that might cause that is screen off turns off the backlight but leaves the now playing screen active, and if there are long names that need scrolling the processor might still be doing a fair amount of processing.

John S.

m1abrams
2010-06-11, 12:06
So you are saying the "screen off" screensaver takes more power than the "digital clock" screensaver? Now THAT is interesting. The only way I could come up with that might cause that is screen off turns off the backlight but leaves the now playing screen active, and if there are long names that need scrolling the processor might still be doing a fair amount of processing.

John S.

No I think the issue is that they have different requirements for power depending on if the device has an off state with an Info Display such as a clock. So what that tells me is that when the Touch is in the standby mode with no display shown it is not saving ENOUGH power to meet the non-information power requirement.

Edit: Also what this shows is how difficult and confusing things get when big govt steps in to "make things better"!!!!

peterw
2010-06-11, 12:13
So you are saying the "screen off" screensaver takes more power than the "digital clock" screensaver?

Nope. Touch when in standby consumes about 2W ** regardless of the display setting, which is allowed of devices that have info displays, but not of devices with no info display. It almost certainly consumes a little less power with screen dark, but the EU directive in this case gives Logitech incentive to ship with default settings that consume more power. :-)

-Peter

** My cheap consumer AC power meter measures true RMS, but rounds to the nearest watt, as it was intended for measuring stuff like the power draw of a refrigerator. Looking at the Amp, Volt, and Power Factor numbers Touch draws about 2.16 Watts RMS, but again my meter is a cheap consumer unit, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's reading 10% high with a device like Touch that doesn't even draw 0.05 amps.

JohnSwenson
2010-06-11, 13:14
Nope. Touch when in standby consumes about 2W ** regardless of the display setting, which is allowed of devices that have info displays, but not of devices with no info display. It almost certainly consumes a little less power with screen dark, but the EU directive in this case gives Logitech incentive to ship with default settings that consume more power. :-)

-Peter



Got it, that makes more sense, a clock has a different rule than a blank screen.

John S,

Philip Meyer
2010-06-12, 06:26
>Radio meets EC1275, as does Controller. Touch appears to with its
>default settings (showing the clock screen when off; with "screen dark"
>when off it does not). None of the "IP3K" players meet the new EU
>standards.
>
I thought I had read that Touch was consuming too much, but that more could be done to reduce it. That was early days in beta testing though, so maybe improvements have been made to switch off unnecessary components in soft-off mode.

Or maybe I'm confusing the discussion with Boom beta testing.