PDA

View Full Version : Touch or NAS



STEVESPUR
2009-12-13, 10:08
I have had a Duet for most of this year and barring last month's server problem have had no issues with it at all - a very good experience in fact.
However the 'PC needs to be on' item has constantly nagged at me.

So with the Touch looming, my question is - If I want to deal with the PC om question, does the Touch become preferable to a NAS?

I am not particularly interested in the 'Touchability' element of the Touch device and will presumably be able to control it via the Duet Controller

I am not a super tecchie, so if I went down the NAS path it would have to be one with SB already installed.

My music (mainly FLAC) is stored on a separate USB connected drive which is connected to the PC.

Much appreciate any views

Thanks

garym
2009-12-13, 10:30
Sounds like you'd probably prefer the touch. Plug your USB harddrive into the TOUCH and play all your music (and internet radio/services) without another computer being on.

iPhone
2009-12-13, 12:17
I have had a Duet for most of this year and barring last month's server problem have had no issues with it at all - a very good experience in fact.
However the 'PC needs to be on' item has constantly nagged at me.

So with the Touch looming, my question is - If I want to deal with the PC om question, does the Touch become preferable to a NAS?

I am not particularly interested in the 'Touchability' element of the Touch device and will presumably be able to control it via the Duet Controller

I am not a super tecchie, so if I went down the NAS path it would have to be one with SB already installed.

My music (mainly FLAC) is stored on a separate USB connected drive which is connected to the PC.

Much appreciate any views

Thanks

Hello and Welcome to the Forum.

The Touch is not really an NAS. The Touch is a Squeezebox Player that can be a Player, Controller, and TinySC Server all at the same time.

Would you be able to not run a PC anymore? Sure, just by having a Touch and plugging the USB Drive full of songs into the USB port on the Touch. One loses the use of 3rd Party Plugins when doing this. One also loses the WebUI when only running a Touch.

Personally, I have been down the NAS road and don't care for it with its expense, lack of power/performance (most won't run SoX), especially when a dedicated PC usually works better for half the cost with 4 times or more the processing power. And if you don't want to build your own then have a look at Vortexbox Appliance (http://vortexbox.org/about/) or their new mini. They can be left on all year for less then $25 a year.

The Touch is really a Smart Player where the Duet and SB3 are Dumb Players. I like being able to use the Touch in the SUV and at the cabin on weekends. All I have to take is the Touch and my USB powered Toshiba drive and I have tunes for the truck as well as the cabin.

mdconnelly
2009-12-13, 12:54
Hello and Welcome to the Forum.

... One also loses the WebUI when only running a Touch.


Hmmm, didn't think of that. So would this imply that a Touch, running as a tiny SBC with hard disk attached, could ONLY be controlled by the Touch screen itself? That is, no WebUI, no Controller, no iPhone app, etc..? Syncing with other SBs?

aubuti
2009-12-13, 17:28
Hmmm, didn't think of that. So would this imply that a Touch, running as a tiny SBC with hard disk attached, could ONLY be controlled by the Touch screen itself? That is, no WebUI, no Controller, no iPhone app, etc..? Syncing with other SBs?
No, it wouldn't imply that. No web ui means not being able to control it via a web browser by going to http://<SBS_ip>:9000/. The SB Controller and iPhone+iPeng don't use a web interface (http), so they can control the SB Touch just fine. Sync'ing with other SBs is also possible.

mdconnelly
2009-12-13, 20:04
Ah! Thanks for the info. Makes sense. So in a household of several SBs, Duets and a Touch in mini SC mode, control would only be possible from SB remotes, a Controller or iPeng on the iPhone. There wouldn't be a way to configure anything or select music via a laptop?

aubuti
2009-12-13, 20:33
Configuration would be done on the SB Touch itself. It *might* be possible to use a laptop to control things via 3rd party programs like Moose, but I haven't heard of anyone trying that yet. But you definitely could not control things via a web browser. In order to accommodate SBS in the limited hardware resources of the SB Touch and guarantee that other demands would not compromise the ability to serve music they have to disable a few things in SBS, most notably:
- the built-in web server that serves up the web ui
- transcoding support
- support for 3rd party plugins

Mnyb
2009-12-13, 22:48
Squeezeplay on the PC would also act as a controller, so control is possible and some settings can be accessed that way to ?

aubuti
2009-12-14, 08:04
Squeezeplay on the PC would also act as a controller, so control is possible and some settings can be accessed that way to ?
yes, absolutely. I'm embarassed I overlooked that. That would be the most normal way for a pc to interact with the SB Touch.

iPhone
2009-12-14, 10:19
Ah! Thanks for the info. Makes sense. So in a household of several SBs, Duets and a Touch in mini SC mode, control would only be possible from SB remotes, a Controller or iPeng on the iPhone. There wouldn't be a way to configure anything or select music via a laptop?

Also don't forget the Touch. It is a Controller as well as a Player so it can also Control the other players while being a Player running TinySC. Also if you were to start up the SBS Server, you would once again have the WebUI and control over your Squeezeboxes. TinySC and SBS on a Server can be going at the same time also if need be or is wanted.

The Touch and TinySC are very flexible.

trouty00
2009-12-15, 04:09
So from my calculations the touch WILL act as a general purpose NAS at 2.65MB/s (from what I have read elsewhere)in all honesty this is quicker than my current NAS which is a WB MBWE (Mk1) so yes things have come on but as long as you dont need the speed then it could be used.

If I buy a new NAS (as I also have run out of space so need to invest somewhere)then will the touch built in server be able to access network shares which holds music?

although i use the web interface right now its only because its quicker than using ipeng when im at my desk and I have no remote for my receiver but will the touch I will have the IR remote so that's that issue solved.

only plugins i use really are iplayer but rarely so not going to be an issue and svr power control which i wont need with the touch

Stu

alfista
2009-12-15, 07:45
If I buy a new NAS (as I also have run out of space so need to invest somewhere)then will the touch built in server be able to access network shares which holds music?

Not according to the beta testers, it will only access locally mounted disks.

trouty00
2009-12-15, 07:54
Not according to the beta testers, it will only access locally mounted disks.

hmmm, poor show! not even using the shortcut trick (putting a shortcut to LAN share holding your music on a local sd card say)

I'm gonna have to think about this.

andyg
2009-12-15, 08:10
On Dec 15, 2009, at 9:54 AM, trouty00 wrote:

>
> alfista;495840 Wrote:
>> Not according to the beta testers, it will only access locally mounted
>> disks.
>
> hmmm, poor show! not even using the shortcut trick (putting a shortcut
> to LAN share holding your music on a local sd card say)
>
> I'm gonna have to think about this.

You could certainly do it yourself, but it's not officially supported, for 2 main reasons:

1. We don't want to build a UI for browsing/selecting a network share.
3. We'd have to store the database on the network drive, making the server very, very slow.

trouty00
2009-12-15, 08:34
Andy, on an earlier comment I made, will the touch be able to run as a general NAS albeit not lighting quick? I'm assuming so. And when you say it will make the touch very slow, wheres the bottleneck going to be?

I have no idea about the hardware inside the touch but obviously it will use some cpu & mem for just being a player and then some for serving out to other players. I'm guessing there is going to be a max number of players that the touch will be able to serve, also you say having the database on the network share will make it slow, I thought the purpose of going to mysql was to get a smaller dbase and surely for some users with smallish collections then the touch will be able to cope right? I do understand that this isnt going to be a supported option but like I say I will be buying a touch on release and would rather not have to buy a new NAS if i dont have too.

and why not store the database on a local fast sd card with the music elsewhere? again im assuming this will be dooable via ssh.

where is the database located so i can check size of it?

cheers
Stu

iPhone
2009-12-15, 08:48
So from my calculations the touch WILL act as a general purpose NAS at 2.65MB/s (from what I have read elsewhere)in all honesty this is quicker than my current NAS which is a WB MBWE (Mk1) so yes things have come on but as long as you dont need the speed then it could be used.

If I buy a new NAS (as I also have run out of space so need to invest somewhere)then will the touch built in server be able to access network shares which holds music?

although i use the web interface right now its only because its quicker than using ipeng when im at my desk and I have no remote for my receiver but will the touch I will have the IR remote so that's that issue solved.

only plugins i use really are iplayer but rarely so not going to be an issue and svr power control which i wont need with the touch

Stu

Nobody said the Touch will run or work as an NAS. The Touch is NOT an NAS. An NAS is a box with low power CPU that acts as a file server IE Network Attached Storage. The Touch in TinySC mode currently only recognizes the first drive it sees. On the network, one can transfer files to this "attached" drive but one can't put a USB hub on Touch and have it scan and use 4 attached drives. Yes one can attach and use a hub with Touch but currently it will only see and scan the first USB drive.

Again, if one needs an NAS then build a PC to use as a dedicated Music Server. Or buy something like a Vortexbox Appliance. The Touch using TinySC is a great way to play music from a single USB Drive, Stick, or music brought over by friends for a party. It is not an end all solution for not having a dedicated Music Server or NAS for those with large music collections. The Touch is very versatile but not meant to replace an SBS Server if that is required due to ones library size. If one has under 2 TB of files and wants to use a large USB drive, it will work if a single drive is used.

trouty00
2009-12-15, 09:03
Nobody said the Touch will run or work as an NAS. The Touch is NOT an NAS. An NAS is a box with low power CPU that acts as a file server IE Network Attached Storage. The Touch in TinySC mode currently only recognizes the first drive it sees. On the network, one can transfer files to this "attached" drive but one can't put a USB hub on Touch and have it scan and use 4 attached drives. Yes one can attach and use a hub with Touch but currently it will only see and scan the first USB drive.

Again, if one needs an NAS then build a PC to use as a dedicated Music Server. Or buy something like a Vortexbox Appliance. The Touch using TinySC is a great way to play music from a single USB Drive, Stick, or music brought over by friends for a party. It is not an end all solution for not having a dedicated Music Server or NAS for those with large music collections. The Touch is very versatile but not meant to replace an SBS Server if that is required due to ones library size. If one has under 2 GB of files and wants to use a large USB drive, it will work if a single drive is used.

Firstly let me state I'm not trying to cause trouble, I am simply trying to understand the capability's and pro's of cons of configuring the touch in a certain way which I understand is not how its necessarily designed to be used.

From what I have read the usb drive you attach you the touch will be available as a samba share so essentially a network file server (IE. NAS)

I don't need to use a USB HUB if I took up a 1/2Tb drive to it. I only have about 30Gb of music which I will be using and I would like to use the touch as a one for all device, I dont want to waste money on a vortex box or a NAS if i don't need too and in all honesty i wouldn't use the samba share extensively, just for scheduled backups etc at a time where i wouldn't be using it as a music server.

In terms of the remark you make about 2GB's of files, what is the relevance of this figure? again I'm not questioning you or picking holes? I'm purely trying to understand.

Cheers
Stu

garym
2009-12-15, 09:09
Hmmm, now I'm curious. Is there a file size limit to the tiny SbS? I was planning to use a touch with 1TB drive holding about 60,000 files at the weekend place.

andyg
2009-12-15, 09:14
On Dec 15, 2009, at 11:09 AM, garym wrote:

>
> Hmmm, now I'm curious. Is there a file size limit to the tiny SbS? I
> was planning to use a touch with 1TB drive holding about 60,000 files at
> the weekend place.

No, there is no file count limit.

iPhone
2009-12-15, 09:24
Firstly let me state I'm not trying to cause trouble, I am simply trying to understand the capability's and pro's of cons of configuring the touch in a certain way which I understand is not how its necessarily designed to be used.

From what I have read the usb drive you attach you the touch will be available as a samba share so essentially a network file server (IE. NAS)

I don't need to use a USB HUB if I took up a 1/2Tb drive to it. I only have about 30Gb of music which I will be using and I would like to use the touch as a one for all device, I dont want to waste money on a vortex box or a NAS if i don't need too and in all honesty i wouldn't use the samba share extensively, just for scheduled backups etc at a time where i wouldn't be using it as a music server.

In terms of the remark you make about 2GB's of files, what is the relevance of this figure? again I'm not questioning you or picking holes? I'm purely trying to understand.

Cheers
Stu

Sorry Stu, That was a typo, I meant 2TB worth of files as in the current big USB drives that are not to outrageously prices. I am using a Toshiba 500GB USB powered drive for Touch portable use as in between vehicles and a 1.5TB WD MyBook at home on my office desk.

To Garym: I don't know of a file limit that has been reached. One probably exists, but I am using a 1.5TB WD MyBook without issue and I am sure that a 2TB would have no trouble just take a bit longer to scan.

JohnSwenson
2009-12-15, 19:15
hmmm, poor show! not even using the shortcut trick (putting a shortcut to LAN share holding your music on a local sd card say)

I'm gonna have to think about this.

As Andy mentioned it can actually be done, but you have to "do it by hand". SSH into the Touch mount the network share and change the TinySBS configuration file to point at that network drive. The Touch runs Linux so pretty much anything you can do with linux CAN be done, but you have to be willing to be a bit of a linux hacker to do it. The machine does not have unlimited CPU horsepower or memory available so you have to be careful about how much extra stuff you do on it. If you do TOO much the basic core functionality (playing music) might suffer.

So if you are willing to manually set things up and live with the limitations of a remote database there is nothing stopping you from doing so. Go for it.

John S.

mherger
2009-12-15, 22:50
> So if you are willing to manually set things up and live with the
> limitations of a remote database there is nothing stopping you from
> doing so. Go for it.

Hehe... and if you manage to do a 3rd party applet do wrap it all up in a nice GUI, then your PayPal account might see new heights :-)

--

Michael

aubuti
2009-12-16, 07:12
So if you are willing to manually set things up and live with the limitations of a remote database there is nothing stopping you from doing so. Go for it.
I'm guessing that the response of the ui with a remote database will be too slow for most people to tolerate, but there was something in post #15 that made me think. What if the user pointed TinySBS to a music library on an SD card or USB stick inserted in the Touch, and that music library directory had a symlink to the network drive attached to the router, which is manually mounted as a filesystem on the Touch as you describe? Scanning would still be slow but at least the database wouldn't have to traverse the network. Or do symlinks to remote mounts not work? (I don't think I've ever tried)

JohnSwenson
2009-12-16, 11:49
I'm guessing that the response of the ui with a remote database will be too slow for most people to tolerate, but there was something in post #15 that made me think. What if the user pointed TinySBS to a music library on an SD card or USB stick inserted in the Touch, and that music library directory had a symlink to the network drive attached to the router, which is manually mounted as a filesystem on the Touch as you describe? Scanning would still be slow but at least the database wouldn't have to traverse the network. Or do symlinks to remote mounts not work? (I don't think I've ever tried)

I think that could be made to work. I actually do something similar with my main SBS, the server software and database file etc are on a standard local disk and I have the music files themselves on a separate RAID array which is just linked into the main disk, it works like a charm and allows me to easily transfer the music files to a different server when I want to do so.

John S.

snarlydwarf
2009-12-16, 11:55
I'm guessing that the response of the ui with a remote database will be too slow for most people to tolerate, but there was something in post #15 that made me think. What if the user pointed TinySBS to a music library on an SD card or USB stick inserted in the Touch, and that music library directory had a symlink to the network drive attached to the router, which is manually mounted as a filesystem on the Touch as you describe? Scanning would still be slow but at least the database wouldn't have to traverse the network. Or do symlinks to remote mounts not work? (I don't think I've ever tried)

You obviously can't symlink to music:/exports or anything...

But you can do:

mkdir /mystuff
mount -t nfs music:/exports /mystuff
ln -s /mystuff /media/whatever/the/path/is

And magically /media/whatever/the/path/is would be your remote music store.

No clue if Touch supports nfs or not... or smb client.

That would work on a typical linux box, though.

aubuti
2009-12-16, 12:03
But you can do:

mkdir /mystuff
mount -t nfs music:/exports /mystuff
ln -s /mystuff /media/whatever/the/path/is

yeah, that's what I meant. thanks, including for the caveats about nfs and smbclient.

JJZolx
2009-12-16, 21:23
It really wouldn't make much to run the server on the Touch and house the files on an NAS. You could do better by getting an NAS with sufficient processing power and memory to run the full Squeezebox Server so you'd have such niceties as a web interface, transcoding, and plugins. If you're getting an underpowered NAS that can barely handle that then it's a tossup.

Justme
2010-01-30, 01:25
Just a question regarding 3rd party plugins when using tiny server...

I currently use mp3tunes for cloud based music. Would I still be able to access this if using the tiny server? Or will I have to manually switch to mysqueezebox.com each time?

aubuti
2010-01-30, 10:43
You wouldn't need to consciously switch to mysb. You could just go to My Apps > MP3Tunes on the SB Touch's home menu. I haven't used MP3Tunes in a long time, but that's how it works with regular SBS, isn't it?

Justme
2010-01-30, 23:30
You wouldn't need to consciously switch to mysb. You could just go to My Apps > MP3Tunes on the SB Touch's home menu. I haven't used MP3Tunes in a long time, but that's how it works with regular SBS, isn't it?

Thanks aubuti, so apps work with the tiny server, it's just plugins that don't work. I get a little confused sometimes where the line is drawn between a plugin and an app.

Mnyb
2010-01-30, 23:53
Thanks aubuti, so apps work with the tiny server, it's just plugins that don't work. I get a little confused sometimes where the line is drawn between a plugin and an app.

Me too, Logitech have to make a wiki on it I think, with an complete overview.
Some Apps also needs a serverside plugin.
Some parts of the standard server is in reality a plugin,thats always loaded. I assume most of this will be in TinySBS.
I also assume but I don't know that all the apps you can get trough mysqueezebox.com are such apps that will run on TinySBS,
is there any exception ?

JohnSwenson
2010-01-31, 00:34
The distinction is quite specific:
a plugin is written in perl and runs in the perl interpreter in the server (whatever server that may be), an applet is written in Lua and runs in the Lua interpreter running on the player hardware.

In the case of the Touch both can be running on the same hardware.

In general if you are talking to the hardware UI (displaying on the screen, getting button clicks etc) you are an applet, if you are dealing with playlists, searches etc you are a plugin. If you do both there will probably be BOTH an applet and a plugin talking to each other.

John S.

JJZolx
2010-01-31, 00:47
The distinction is quite specific:
a plugin is written in perl and runs in the perl interpreter in the server (whatever server that may be), an applet is written in Lua and runs in the Lua interpreter running on the player hardware.

Then there are also so-called "apps", which are....... to tell you the truth, I still have no idea.

Justme
2010-01-31, 02:38
So, I presume then that the mp3tunes locker is simply an App. Quite important to be sure as it is a core part of my usage of our existing two Squeezeboxes and if I buy the Touch, I will need this to continue.

I probably won't need mp3Tunes if Slim Server (and TinySBS) in the future offers multiple librarys. The main reason now is so we don't need the PC constantly on. But if the Touch operates as the server, that's fine, but we have got so used to having two library's. One with only our favourite bands, and the other with everything (my wife hates to have to scroll through so many artists, especially when a great deal only has one song ;O)

JJZolx
2010-01-31, 03:06
So, I presume then that the mp3tunes locker is simply an App.

It's both an app and a pluggin. If the player is connected to MySqueezebox.com then you use the app. If the player is connected to a local SbS server then to use Mp3tunes Music Locker, it requires the plugin to be installed and running on the SbS server.


Quite important to be sure as it is a core part of my usage of our existing two Squeezeboxes and if I buy the Touch, I will need this to continue.

You won't be able to use Mp3tunes Music Locker with the Touch connected to its own internal server, since that server cannot run plugins. But that shouldn't matter at all, because you'd just select the "app" from a menu, and the player will switch the connection to MySqueezebox.com and you can then use the app.


I probably won't need mp3Tunes if Slim Server (and TinySBS) in the future offers multiple librarys.

Multiple libraries would be as simple as switching the USB disk drive from one to another.


The main reason now is so we don't need the PC constantly on.

Which is why so many set up and run quiet, low powered servers as an alternative to running their home desktop PC.


But if the Touch operates as the server, that's fine, but we have got so used to having two library's. One with only our favourite bands, and the other with everything (my wife hates to have to scroll through so many artists, especially when a great deal only has one song ;O)

Why do you have so many artists with only one song? A solution to consolidating them might be to

1. Set "Group compilation albums together." This keeps artists that only appear on compilation albums from appearing in the artist list. If those artists appear on compilation albums, then this may be all you need to do.

2. If not, and you really have single tracks by many artists, tag all of the tracks as if they were on compilation albums, even if they're not. Give them the same album name, and you might also need to place all of the files in the same folder. Doing this may leave you with one gigantic compilation album with hundreds of tracks, but you can also break them up into as many 'pseudo-albums' as you like, maybe organized by genre or mood.

Justme
2010-01-31, 04:16
Thanks for your replies JJZolx



You won't be able to use Mp3tunes Music Locker with the Touch connected to its own internal server, since that server cannot run plugins. But that shouldn't matter at all, because you'd just select the "app" from a menu, and the player will switch the connection to MySqueezebox.com and you can then use the app.

So, when I stop playing music from mp3tunes, it will revert straight back to normal tinySBS mode and continue functioning as normal. I ask this, as currently we have our Boom and SB set to mysqueezebox.com which also has all our presets on the boom. But when we switch to SBS, the presets are different etc. It's quite a hassle and would be so much nicer to be more comprehensive.



Multiple libraries would be as simple as switching the USB disk drive from one to another.

;O) Not quite. The whole idea of physically having to disconnect the hard drive and plug in another USB stick, then return to the kitchen or living room would drive my wife insane. And me to be honest. I guess we would still use mp3Tunes as the smaller library and the Hard Disk on the USB port as the complete library.

I have always hoped that Slim Devices allowed for multiple libraries. This would be not only useful for our situation, but also the simple fact that there are usually more than one person living in a house, and each person may only want to look through their collection of music.



Which is why so many set up and run quiet, low powered servers as an alternative to running their home desktop PC.

Yes, this was always my secondary option before the idea of the Touch as the main server and storage option. Basically, we have a lot of gadgets connected in our house and it is getting quite rediculous. Not only do I spend far too much time, constantly fixing this, or reconfiguring that, there is also the endless amount of things plugged into wall sockets and draining power.

I am trying to consolidate a lot of our stuff. The last thing I want really is another computer in the house constantly on. Even if it small and in another room and hidden, if I can get buy with the Touch to do this for me, then all the better.

If it was up to my wife, we would have all electronics thrown out in the next rubbish collection ;O) So, it's always better for the relationship to keep these devices to a minimum.



Why do you have so many artists with only one song? A solution to consolidating them might be to

1. Set "Group compilation albums together." This keeps artists that only appear on compilation albums from appearing in the artist list. If those artists appear on compilation albums, then this may be all you need to do.

2. If not, and you really have single tracks by many artists, tag all of the tracks as if they were on compilation albums, even if they're not. Give them the same album name, and you might also need to place all of the files in the same folder. Doing this may leave you with one gigantic compilation album with hundreds of tracks, but you can also break them up into as many 'pseudo-albums' as you like, maybe organized by genre or mood.

Year ;O) Lovely idea, but maybe a project way down the line. I have 18,000+ tracks and have spent hours upon hours making sure the Genre is correct, the dates are correct, finding Album covers etc. Because nothing seems to be standard, I seem to have to do this for mp3tunes, iTunes (so I can also use this on my iPhone) and mp3 Media Center (from jriver) as my wife prefers that interface when playing music on the PC and it's the best ripping tool I have found. And I havn't got anywhere near finished.

I find I am spending way too much time sorting my music out and not enough time listening to it ;O)

I wish CD's came with pre-ripped mp3's. Everyone rips them once they are bought... oh well...

Thanks for your help though :O)

andynormancx
2010-01-31, 04:30
I wish CD's came with pre-ripped mp3's. Everyone rips them once they are bought... oh well...

Even if they did, the meta data would still need to be edited, not everyones idea of genre for example is the same.

JJZolx
2010-01-31, 04:35
So, when I stop playing music from mp3tunes, it will revert straight back to normal tinySBS mode and continue functioning as normal.

No. I don't believe it ever switches servers by itself. You have to first do something that requires the local TinySbS server, like going into My Music, at which time you should be prompted to switch servers. Consequently, doing something that requires MySqueezebox.com will elicit a prompt to change to MySqueezebox.com.


I ask this, as currently we have our Boom and SB set to mysqueezebox.com which also has all our presets on the boom. But when we switch to SBS, the presets are different etc. It's quite a hassle and would be so much nicer to be more comprehensive.

Sounds like it could be a syncing problem, but I don't use favorites or mysb.com very much, so it may even be that it's supposed to work like that.


;O) Not quite. The whole idea of physically having to disconnect the hard drive and plug in another USB stick, then return to the kitchen or living room would drive my wife insane. And me to be honest. I guess we would still use mp3Tunes as the smaller library and the Hard Disk on the USB port as the complete library.

The built-in server isn't meant to be a solution for all but the most basic usage cases. Having more than one library, that you can switch between remotely isn't even possible in the full SbS, except with the use of plugins.

liffy99
2010-03-13, 03:51
So much tech talk my head is spinning !
So some questions in plain English . . .
Assuming a I have a Touch with an attached USB HDD;

1) I can manage (add, delete, organise, tag) files on the Touch HDD through my PC or Apple via the home wireless network.
2) The Touch will be able to play the content of the attached HDD with no PC needing to be on elsewhere.
3) Plugins, like Alien BBC, wouldn't be available (but they would be if one went down the conventional NAS / Squeezecentre route)
4) The Touch could feed other Squeezeboxes across a wireless network (e.g. the SB3 I have in my kitchen could play the files on the HDD attached to the Touch - would the Touch need to be switched on in this case and where would player settings need to be managed from).
5) Is bandwidth a problem ? Especially with high res 24/96 files which, in FLAC, are likley to consume, say, 2000kbs plus ?

Ta

bpa
2010-03-13, 03:58
3) Plugins, like Alien BBC, wouldn't be available (but they would be if one went down the conventional NAS / Squeezecentre route)


No plugins but there are Applets and there is a BBCiPlayer applet which gives access to the "Listen Again" programs for Touch (and also Radio).

toby10
2010-03-13, 04:51
2. Yes, no computer needed to run USB HDD to Touch using TinySC server, assuming your music files are a native format to the Touch (Touch can handle most music audio formats)

4. Yes, Touch can be a controller for other players as well as the server for those players. Touch needs to be ON (standby) for the other players to see it. If Touch is plugged in it is ON, it's only true OFF state is unplugged. Basic player settings for the players being controlled by Touch are available.

5. Bandwidth: That is a limitation of your network throughput and/or WiFi signal strength and integrity. I can stream full WAV files to four synced players (three are WiFi, one is wired) without even a hiccup. But then others can get playback issues streaming a simple MP3 to a single WiFi player based on WiFi issues.

Phileas
2010-03-13, 06:31
No plugins but there are Applets and there is a BBCiPlayer applet which gives access to the "Listen Again" programs for Touch (and also Radio).

So is this an applet which sits on the Touch and gives similar functionality to the iPlayer plugin and doesn't require a PC with SBS to be on?

If so, where will this applet be obtained from - will it be downloaded directly to the Touch?

Or will the Applet be an App which is installed at mysqueezebox.com?

foxx
2010-03-14, 01:37
In another thread it was mentioned that the use of the touch internal server may degrade audio quality due to the limited resources of the CPU.

Is this really so? Would audio quality really be better if the touch was served from a PC instead of from its own SBS?

Phil Leigh
2010-03-14, 01:46
In another thread it was mentioned that the use of the touch internal server may degrade audio quality due to the limited resources of the CPU.

Is this really so? Would audio quality really be better if the touch was served from a PC instead of from its own SBS?

No, that's Unsubstantiated Hogwash(tm) or Vicarious Rumour Put About By People Who Think They Know How Things Work Based on Reading Hi-Fi Mags Or Spending Too Long On ComputerAudiophile.Com(tm)
...which has been disproven.

foxx
2010-03-14, 01:54
Hmm, usually I would also have put it under hogwash, But it was mentioned by one of the more respected members on this forum:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70407

This is why I'm asking.

DaveWr
2010-03-14, 02:38
No, that's Unsubstantiated Hogwash(tm) or Vicarious Rumour Put About By People Who Think They Know How Things Work Based on Reading Hi-Fi Mags Or Spending Too Long On ComputerAudiophile.Com(tm)
...which has been disproven.

I think it was Mr Swenson on jitter increase when USB port in use.....

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=481661&postcount=8

Dave

Phil Leigh
2010-03-14, 03:08
I think it was Mr Swenson on jitter increase when USB port in use.....

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=481661&postcount=8

Dave

Subsequent to that report, I did some ADM tests (which JS unfortunately couldn't replicate - can't remember why now) which showed no difference between playback on TinySC vs playback using external SBS.
Given that JS has put a lot of effort recently into the USB driver for the Touch to support 24/192, it seems fair to conclude that we are now past this (USB port) issue - although I'll let JS speak for himself!

I wasn't referring to JS's reported issue.

JohnSwenson
2010-03-15, 00:27
I was using a USB DAC when I noticed the issue, but subsequently noticed it all the other outputs so I came to the conclusion it was NOT a USB specific issue.

After a lot of listening tests and trying different things I came to the conclusion that the primary correlation was decoding flac files on the touch.

I have tried numerous tests both with ADM and checking for jitter on the clocks and have not been able to find any difference. Now my jitter measuring capability is not super sensitive so it might still be there but I can't measure it. (really good jitter measuring equipment is really expensive, there is no way I can afford to buy some)

What I DID fins was that jitter increases slightly when playing to headphones.

Please don't take what I'm saying as meaning that the Touch is somehow defective or woefully underpowered or any thing like that, I am definitely NOT saying that!!!!!!!

One of the advantages of the Sb approach is that you put most of the computing on another computer (the server) out of the listening environment, there are many good reasons to do that. The more you put computing back in the SB you are negating those advantages to some degree. Exactly what these are and exactly how they interact with us is not fully understood so I can't give you a precise reason. And to make it much more difficult it seems to vary significantly from setup to setup. For ME the best sound happens when as much computing as possible is done remotely. Others will disagree with that, thats fine. Thats one of the beauties of the Sb system, its very flexible, it lets YOU determine how you want to set up your system and optimize things based on how it sounds to YOU.

I also don't want want people to blow this out of proportion, the worst I can get out of the touch (playing flac files on the local server with a USB drive plugged in going got headphones) is actually still really good, much better than most of the equipment in my house. Its just that if you optimize things it sounds phenomenal.

John S.

Phil Leigh
2010-03-15, 08:27
Yes - headphones - that was it... couldn't remember that part - I never did test that... might get chance in 2-3 weeks time

foxx
2010-03-15, 23:31
....I also don't want want people to blow this out of proportion, the worst I can get out of the touch (playing flac files on the local server with a USB drive plugged in going got headphones) is actually still really good, much better than most of the equipment in my house. Its just that if you optimize things it sounds phenomenal.

John S.

To be honest, the sole reason for me to wait on the Touch rather than to buy a Classic now for an absolute bargain price was the perceived capability of the Touch to act as a server together with a USB drive loaded with flac files.

Makes me think ...

Phil Leigh
2010-03-15, 23:56
To be honest, the sole reason for me to wait on the Touch rather than to buy a Classic now for an absolute bargain price was the perceived capability of the Touch to act as a server together with a USB drive loaded with flac files.

Makes me think ...

Lets try again. Both John and I believe that the Touch is noticeably superior to the SB3 or Duet via either the digital or analogue outputs. The issue John is describing appears to be related to usage of the headphone output. The cause of this minor issue is unclear.

foxx
2010-03-16, 11:21
Ok, thank you for bringing it down to the point. I'm put to rest.