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Ben Gladstone
2004-07-28, 08:54
ditto on the thanks to the slim community for a great & free server app
- and that the windows platform is the key to the mass market

as a sense check on the server hardware, we supply windows machines to
small businesses and would never spec RAM at less than 1GB for a
5-client Exchange server up to 2GB for a 15-client server

slimserver is doing a relatively intensive job (it's not just a
fileserver) so an 8-client server requiring 1GB RAM is reasonable - and
1GB of server RAM costs no more than a single squeezebox


-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com
[mailto:discuss-bounces (AT) lists (DOT) slimdevices.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Allison
Sent: 28 July 2004 16:23
To: 'Slim Devices Discussion'
Subject: [slim] Problems with Windows service

> > Moving the box to Linux isn't an option for me - but would
> > installing Perl on Windows and running the Slim software
> > through that make any difference?

> not likely, as the EXE is simply a perl compile under a
> windows Perl environment. I too see the same lame
> performance under windows. no dropouts, but I only have 4k
> songs under windows ( I keep legal, you see). Testing
> options just isn't an option becuase once again, you have to
> pay money to play with windows. That's probably why nobody
> can help. Windows users can only cry for help. I can't
> develop a damn thing for any windows app I've tried and i
> certainly know of a great many that need a big injection of
> user feedback. for myself, I can only say that I try. I do
> have a duplicate setup. I do have an entire drive dedicated
> to a windows slimserver setup, even tho I would never run my
> clients from it. It is just there to test my ideas, hoping
> it can work in windows as wel as it does on my main
> slimserver platform. or at least, to avoid breaking things.

I believe that KDF has supplied a bunch of stuff to the slim community
including, I think, the nice fishbone skin that I use all the time. For
that, and for all the volunteer efforts going on, many thanks! It's
great that people will do this. Also, this is a discussion list and not
the official slim devices tech support forum, so everyone is free to
voice their opinions and one should not expect a response to every post
to this list.

But saying that windows sucks isn't a very useful response. I'm not
personally a big fan of windows myself, but for various reasons it's
what I run at home and it's what the slim server is running on. I've
been having some problems that originated this thread -- although I
don't actually think the problems that I'm seeing are the same as what
is being discussed now. I don't have "performance problems" per se, I
have about once a day occurrences where the client cannot connect to the
server -- and Dean is looking into my problems. He has suggested some
things I can do to track down information and we're working the issue.
I can't ask for any more than that at present. But getting back to
windows, it has to be Slim Devices' priority. You can't sell a consumer
electronics device that requires a Linux server on the back end, so you
have to support windows. And even with the tech-savvy, geek-ish crowd
that owns slim devices products I'd guess that a significant majority
are running the server on windows.

- Jeff


> -kdf
>

kdf
2004-07-28, 10:43
Quoting Ben Gladstone <bgladstone (AT) steadytech (DOT) com>:

> But saying that windows sucks isn't a very useful response. I'm not
> personally a big fan of windows myself, but for various reasons it's
> what I run at home and it's what the slim server is running on.

Its what I run at home, work, on the road. however, when it comes to running
certain things, I get far more bang for the buck elsewhere.

The issues I pointed out are very practical issues. Cost is a big one when it
comes to open source and people who do this on their off time at home. To
whinge about the community being heavily biased towards mac/linux isn't very
useful either. What you have to realise is that there are practical reasons
for it. The suggestion of more RAM is a common one when it comes to windows,
and 'should' help the situation. Its a very useful and easy system, but that
comes at a price. The fact remains that many issues are not issues when the
same software runs in an environment other than windows. It may not mean
windows sucks, but it does mean it is painful.

sorry to take it all personally, but this is a personal thing. I work on this
because it matters to me. I can say for sure that this is also the case for
those who have nice squeezebox pictures on their business cards. There are a
lot of people bending over backwards to do everything for everyone. I dont
know, perhaps if people are losing faith, all this effort isn't being marketed
well enough.

-kdf

Jack Coates
2004-08-01, 10:52
Cleaning out my mailbox after a week on the road here...

> Quoting Ben Gladstone <bgladstone (AT) steadytech (DOT) com>:
>
>> But saying that windows sucks isn't a very useful response. I'm not
>> personally a big fan of windows myself, but for various reasons it's
>> what I run at home and it's what the slim server is running on.
>

After reading this thread, I'm not clear where anyone said that Windows
sucks... rather, what I read was KDF pointing out (correctly) that it is a
different system with different priorities. For what it's worth:

a) The Microsoft environment does not play well with others; to get the
highest performance, you're better off not doing things in a
cross-platform way. This isn't because of evil plotting or bargains with
$DEITY, it's because design decisions were made long enough ago and aren't
worth revisiting.

b) cross-platform is nevertheless the best way to do what Slimdevices
professes to want: build an extensible app with a broad developer
community. Forking processes versus spawning threads, Berkeley sockets
versus IOCP, virtual memory management issues, &c... it's a morass of
difficult stuff that gets side-stepped by using a high-level
cross-platform language.

c) Slimdevices' decision to go cross-platform has paid off in spades, as
the best features (in my opinion) have come from outside developers.
Furthermore, a significant portion of the end-user support done in this
forum comes from outside developers as well. I respectfully propose that
had the platform been written in Visual C++ for Windows from the get-go,
it might go a little faster but it wouldn't have the Shoutcast browser,
the Live Archive browser, the Fishbone skin, the news/weather/caller-id
screensavers, &c. It also would have 40% fewer customers, based on my
memory of the download stats (IIRC it was 60% windows, 30% Mac and 10%
Linux).

--
Jack At Monkeynoodle.Org: It's A Scientific Venture...
"Believe what you're told; there'd be chaos if everyone thought for
themselves." -- Top Dog hotdog stand, Berkeley, CA