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eschurig
2009-11-30, 00:49
I was surprised to find the SB3 missing from the player list on the logitech squeezebox website. Is SB3 obsolete or is it still available? If it's available, can it still be purchased directly or only through resellers? Thanks.

DaveWr
2009-11-30, 01:16
I believe the answer to your question is both.

SB3 is obsolete with the Touch as replacement.

SB3 boxes seem to be available with heavy discounts through some of the UK resellers. End of life sales I suppose. Some resellers are out of stock.

Dave

ghostrider
2009-11-30, 07:20
I think the term obsolete is pretty harsh considering the SB Classic is comparable to much of the Slim technolgy still shipping. Withdrawn from marketing would probably more appropriate.

pippin
2009-11-30, 07:28
"No longer being produced" is probably appropriate.

eschurig
2009-11-30, 08:31
Wow. I thought the touch was not available yet. It is surprising that production would be cut off before the replacement was available, especially, right before Christmas.

I'm in the US. I wonder if there are some SB3 classics available here for a discount. The classic squeezebox is what originally drove my interest in this product line. I had been hoping Logitech might ramp up the volumes and get costs down to $150 or so. Streaming capability is now being built into receivers. I would think this would make the $300 price range a difficult market for squeezeboxes. I'd have a half dozen squeezeboxes at $150 rather than just the couple I own now. I do enjoy the ones I have very much.

pippin
2009-11-30, 08:46
Wow. I thought the touch was not available yet. It is surprising that production would be cut off before the replacement was available, especially, right before Christmas.


Well, why produce something you no longer sell?

aubuti
2009-11-30, 08:47
Wow. I thought the touch was not available yet. It is surprising that production would be cut off before the replacement was available, especially, right before Christmas.

I'm in the US. I wonder if there are some SB3 classics available here for a discount. The classic squeezebox is what originally drove my interest in this product line. I had been hoping Logitech might ramp up the volumes and get costs down to $150 or so. Streaming capability is now being built into receivers. I would think this would make the $300 price range a difficult market for squeezeboxes. I'd have a half dozen squeezeboxes at $150 rather than just the couple I own now. I do enjoy the ones I have very much.
The original plan was that the SB Touch would be available for the Christmas season, but software development has taken longer than expected. SB3s are still available at a lot of retailers, but not at $150. For example, Amazon says they have them in stock for $269. If you want a $150 SB, you need to go for the SB Duet Receiver or the SB Radio. Eventually SB3s may get down to $150 on eBay -- I haven't checked lately but I don't think they're anywhere near that now.

toby10
2009-11-30, 10:01
....... Streaming capability is now being built into receivers. I would think this would make the $300 price range a difficult market for squeezeboxes.....

True, but AVR networking functionality, features, flexibility, and customization are not even in the same ballpark as a SB type player.
The SB3 could be had often for $230 brand new. Even at $300 it is well worth it once one realizes the dreadful limitations of AVR networking. :)

But it is good that the whole networked audio concept is catching on and becoming more main stream. Such built in networking like that in AVR's will only help to push more SB type players in the future.

pfarrell
2009-11-30, 10:02
eschurig wrote:
> Wow. I thought the touch was not available yet. It is surprising that
> production would be cut off before the replacement was available,
> especially, right before Christmas.

I'm sure there are sad faces on managers at Logitech because of that.
There were Touch units in place all boxed and ready to go back in
August/September, the hardware is done. But the software took longer
than expected.

> I'm in the US. I wonder if there are some SB3 classics available here
> for a discount. The classic squeezebox is what originally drove my
> interest in this product line. I had been hoping Logitech might ramp up
> the volumes and get costs down to $150 or so.

The display on the classic is really expensive. No unit with that
display can get down to your dreamed of price. But touch displays are
made by the zillions for cell phones, and their prices are being driven
by volume down quickly.

It will be a lot easier for Logitech to make and sell Touch units at
lower prices than they could with the Classic.


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

mherger
2009-11-30, 10:11
> The display on the classic is really expensive.

Not only that, but afaik it's a EOLed part, too (by our supplier).

eschurig
2009-11-30, 10:35
Yes, I haven't played with receiver streaming yet but did see that it was available at least on some yamaha equipment. That must be an expensive display but it does look good. Being able to browse my library without having a tv to display everything was another criteria for my original purchase. The Duet concept is ok but I still like to have the display on the unit. Although, Ipeng has been a very nice addition to the classic model as well.

It sounds like the touch is probably the way to go.

DaveWr
2009-11-30, 10:50
> The display on the classic is really expensive.

Not only that, but afaik it's a EOLed part, too (by our supplier).

Does that mean the transporter will be EOL soon?

Dave

toby10
2009-11-30, 10:55
Yes, I haven't played with receiver streaming yet but did see that it was available at least on some yamaha equipment.....

Yeah, Yamaha was one of the early adopters of the networked AVR concept. But pretty much all the AVR mfr's now offer networking/streaming in some flavor or another.
They are even incorporating Music Services into AVR's now. :)

mherger
2009-11-30, 10:57
> Does that mean the transporter will be EOL soon?

Don't know. We're not selling as many of them as we sell Classics ;-). Therefore the stock might last longer.

Howard Passman
2009-11-30, 11:19
> Does that mean the transporter will be EOL soon?

Don't know. We're not selling as many of them as we sell Classics ;-). Therefore the stock might last longer.

If I have spent $2k on a TP and couldn't get it repaired up to 10 years after purchasing it, I would be very disappointed. I don't consider 10 years that long for a audio component at that price point.

Howard

SilverRS8
2009-11-30, 11:24
In the Netherlands the SB3 is for sale for 150,-. I believe a decent price at the moment.

pfarrell
2009-11-30, 11:39
Howard Passman wrote:
> If I have spent $2k on a TP and couldn't get it repaired up to 10 years
> after purchasing it, I would be very disappointed. I don't consider 10
> years that long for a audio component at that price point.

I've had a number of PCs that I spent $7000 on, all of which where
obsolete and unfixable within a decade. These days, I can get a suitable
professional development PC for under $2K, but not much under what new
Transporters are actually selling for (~~$1200)

Perhaps your view was appropriate when audio components had no
computers, but nearly all of them as inexpensive as a Transporter do
today. Any ten year old computer is pretty much gone.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

Howard Passman
2009-11-30, 12:04
Howard Passman wrote:
> If I have spent $2k on a TP and couldn't get it repaired up to 10 years
> after purchasing it, I would be very disappointed. I don't consider 10
> years that long for a audio component at that price point.

I've had a number of PCs that I spent $7000 on, all of which where
obsolete and unfixable within a decade. These days, I can get a suitable
professional development PC for under $2K, but not much under what new
Transporters are actually selling for (~~$1200)

Perhaps your view was appropriate when audio components had no
computers, but nearly all of them as inexpensive as a Transporter do
today. Any ten year old computer is pretty much gone.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

Hi Pat,

I can't say I agree with what you're saying, although I understand your train of thought. In my reality this is an audio component and should last 10 years easily. If the audio industry is headed the same direction as the PC industry, it's a real shame. My CD player is now 22 years old and still works like a champ. Parts may be scarce, but it is 22 years old not 1.

A PC could and should last 10 years as long as the software demands don't exceed the units capabilities. That shouldn't be a problem with the TP. The only reason for the past 10 years that I've had to upgrade my PC has been due to Adobe and their never ending upgrades to Photoshop. I still have a Compaq that is 12 or 13 years old that runs like a champ. As long as I don't load something incompatible on there it runs fine. I'm fairly certain there's nothing in there I can't still get other than a new processor.

I've had my TP about a year now and I guess what I'm trying to say is the darn thing should work for a long time and parts should be available for a good while. If Michael is already indicating a shortage of parts, I'm peeved. For the almost $2k I paid this isn't the same as buying an SB3. That's not to say that if my SB3 quit today and they couldn't fix it, that I wouldn't be a bit miffed. In the past three years I have purchased 5 SB's new. If their idea of planned obsolesence is so short that I'll need to be replacing all of these units within 2-3 years of purchasing them, well count me out as a future customer.

With this type of attitude we might have to replace every single electronic device in our homes every three years. Toasters, refrigerators, phones (oh wait we already do) radio alarm clocks, etc...

Don't know why this has gotten me so riled up, but it has.

Howard

P.S. And darn it to heck (trying not to get censored) my 1st Generation 20GB iPod still works.

pfarrell
2009-11-30, 12:22
Howard Passman wrote:
> I can't say I agree with what you're saying, although I understand your
> train of thought. In my reality this is an audio component and should
> last 10 years easily. If the audio industry is headed the same
> direction as the PC industry, it's a real shame. My CD player is now 22
> years old and still works like a champ. Parts may be scarce, but it is
> 22 years old not 1.

Well, nearly all audio gear is a computer these days. Ten years ago, a
good professional PC was an Intel P-3 750mHz. I still have a couple of
them in my basement pile of dead computers. They are not literally dead,
they will boot and work. But you can't run any modern software on them,
they are too slow and have too little RAM. And when I tried to buy more
RAM for one of them, it was so expensive that I bought a new complete
computer instead.


> A PC could and should last 10 years as long as the software demands
> don't exceed the units capabilities. That shouldn't be a problem with
> the TP.

Right, but you were asking about repair and repair cost. My ancient PCs
can "run" in some context. But for a specific example, I was using one
as my mail server, and it could not keep up with the current rate of
SPAM, so it was working in one sense, but not in another. And it was not
economic to fix or upgrade it.


The only reason for the past 10 years that I've had to upgrade
> I've had my TP about a year now and I guess what I'm trying to say is
> the darn thing should work for a long time and parts should be available
> for a good while. If Michael is already indicating a shortage of parts,
> I'm peeved.

That is not what Michael said. What he said was that the displays are
EOL. So soon, no one will be able to order new ones. If your display
doesn't break, you have no problems. And since its unlikely that there
are millions of Transporters out there, a few spares should last a long
time. But at some time, there will be no more displays.

If you really worry about this, you could order your own spare from digikey

> If their idea of planned obsolesence is so short
> that I'll need to be replacing all of these units within 2-3 years of
> purchasing them, well count me out as a future customer.

You are a bit over heated here. My SB-1 can not be fixed. Its maybe six
years old. Its lived a good life, and I don't rely upon it anymore.

Even the Classic, which is just a SB-2 in another package, is ancient
for a piece of computer gear.

> With this type of attitude we might have to replace every single
> electronic device in our homes every three years. Toasters,
> refrigerators, phones (oh wait we already do) radio alarm clocks,
> etc...

Yep, and automobiles are not that far behind. I had a car that was
totalled because the headlights burned out. The replacement HID units
were $1000 each, two were the list price of a Transporter. Since the car
was seven year old, as much as I loved it, it was not cost effective to
fix the headlights.


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

radish
2009-11-30, 12:28
I see what you're saying but I think you're conflating reliability with ability to be repaired. I would expect that your TP will still be working happily for years to come, just like your Compaq. However, if you're unlucky and it does break repairs will be tricky due to parts shortages - again just like your Compaq. There's nothing really that an OEM can do about that if their parts suppliers decide to stop production.

If it's really 12-13 years old, then you can forget being able to replace pretty much any of it with new parts. Back then cards were typically ISA or VESA, both long abandoned. If you're lucky and it has PCI slots you're still facing problems because PCI now is not what it was back then. Of course the CPU (and it's socket standard) are long gone, likewise whatever memory standard it used (30 pin SIMMS?). The motherboard won't be replacable, and you'd need an adapter to replace the PSU (which you may have to make yourself!). Even hard drives will be tricky as small PATA drives are hard to find these days, and the BIOS won't support larger ones (if it's MFM or something like that you're out of luck entirely). However - the one piece of good news is that 3.5" internal floppy drives are still available!

eschurig
2009-11-30, 12:34
My music server runs on a 10 year old Pentium II machine. I had to change to linux but it still works fine.

I'm sure it's not the processor that will present a long term reliability problem for squeezebox players. I don't know the reliability numbers for the types of displays used on the transporter or SB3 but I would guess they would be one of the lower reliability parts in the device. Unfortunately, there are a lot of devices that end up not being manufactured for 10 years. This is probably even more true if the part isn't used by several manufacturers in various kinds of products.

It would be nice if logitech could take a crack at the reliablility statistics knowing the number of units in the field and do a last time buy for support purposes. I wouldn't want to be a customer service person telling transporter customers their 4 year old unit can't be repaired. Many appliances don't get repaired because the basic cost of any repair is more than the cost of a new unit. This is true for a $50 toaster but not for a $2000 transporter.

Howard Passman
2009-11-30, 12:39
Howard Passman wrote:[color=blue]

Yep, and automobiles are not that far behind. I had a car that was
totalled because the headlights burned out. The replacement HID units
were $1000 each, two were the list price of a Transporter. Since the car
was seven year old, as much as I loved it, it was not cost effective to
fix the headlights.


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/


The auto industry should be interesting in the next few years, but there are federal laws in the U.S. regarding how long parts availability must be. Even when GM dumps Saab, if no one buys it, then GM must make parts available. Of course they are expensive as all get out, but we keep asking for all of this junk. We have a BMW franchise and we can't buy cars, sell cars, sell parts, diagnose cars or write repair orders without Internet connectivity. Can't even put a CD player in without doing hours of programming. Progress....

If you've got the money to replace these things at a regular rate then God bless you. I'm betting you don't have college age kids with tuition much higher than your morgage. You just may be smater than I am if you don't :-)

Howard

pfarrell
2009-11-30, 12:52
Howard Passman wrote:
> The auto industry should be interesting in the next few years, but
> there are federal laws in the U.S. regarding how long parts availability
> must be.

The parts were available. It was just that the car was only worth about
$5K and so paying $2K for the headlights made no sense.

The Feds can say you must offer the part for sale, but they can't say
that a person driving a 10 year old car will decide it makes sense to
buy it.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

Howard Passman
2009-11-30, 13:44
Howard Passman wrote:
> The auto industry should be interesting in the next few years, but
> there are federal laws in the U.S. regarding how long parts availability
> must be.

The parts were available. It was just that the car was only worth about
$5K and so paying $2K for the headlights made no sense.

The Feds can say you must offer the part for sale, but they can't say
that a person driving a 10 year old car will decide it makes sense to
buy it.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/


It's actually amzaing how many new cars can be totalled by the firing of the airbags. If I had to have bought a $300 key for my 69 Volvo back in the day, that would have totalled it for me. Or for that matter the new run flat tires. How many folks really want to pay to replace those monsters...

xio
2009-11-30, 13:48
Don't know how much of a *real* issue this is. I'm sat here looking at a fine, fully working SLiMP3 which must be maybe 7 years old...

iPhone
2009-11-30, 14:11
I think the point is more to the fact that just because a company's product gets to EOL on a product Does Not Mean that the unit will suddenly stop working just because of this fact.

Howard will probably get 15 to 20 years use out of the VFD displays with proper use. And even if the display dies, I would be willing to bet that his Controller or iPeng or the WebUI would still work at controlling the Transporter.

ghostrider
2009-11-30, 15:50
Guess I better dim those displays all the way down and use the controller! :D

bobkoure
2009-12-01, 09:18
Actually... is there a relation between brightness and display life? I'd guess that there is, but it's just a guess...

iPhone
2009-12-01, 09:31
Guess I better dim those displays all the way down and use the controller! :D

Looking for 40 to 50 years before EOL? Or you could get an iTouch or iPhone and use iPeng.

I do keep my Transporter displays off unless I am actually navigating from the front panel.

testmatch
2009-12-01, 13:18
Looking for 40 to 50 years before EOL? Or you could get an iTouch or iPhone and use iPeng.

Or an Android phone and the wonderful Squeeze Commander (or any of the four other Squeezebox applications on the Android Market).

I have to say, the more I use Squeeze Commander, the more I love it.

John