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Ikabob
2009-11-02, 04:35
Does anyone know what is the status of the battery? It is no longer shown as an accesory which was due out in November. I have not heard an official announcement about availability or lack of availability. Thanks.

P.S. I love all the Squeezebox products! And these forums are very helpful.

vw195
2009-11-02, 11:50
Its still showing on the slimdevices website, but I agree its now November!

micah
2009-11-11, 13:23
Anyone have any updated information? Will it be available from 3rd parties or exclusively from Logitech?

I'm loving my Radio by the way, just getting a little tired of carrying the AC adapter around.

-micah

jrichardson
2009-11-11, 14:01
http://www.logitechsqueezebox.com/products/squeezebox-radio.html#tab3

testmatch
2009-11-11, 14:29
http://www.logitechsqueezebox.com/products/squeezebox-radio.html#tab3

I hope it is coming, James, but as far as I can see it's disappeared from all Logitech sites apart from the US one - and of course we can only order from our own national site. Mind you, when there was a page for it on the UK site, it gave an error when we tried to pre-order, and the "find a local dealer" button claimed that a UK postcode wasn't a valid zipcode! It's hard to have any confidence in any of the Logitech sites at the moment. It seems that orders get through despite the online shops - rather than because of them!

I'm hoping the battery re-appears very soon, as I really want that. I'm also hoping that my pre-order for the Touch doesn't get cancelled as I put it through before the 20% discount code expired at the end of last month.

The current dire state of Logitech's online shops doesn't give me much hope though!

John

jrichardson
2009-11-11, 14:38
Ya, it would appear this are major errors on the world wide Logitech sites, that they are working on.

This is causing major head aces for the web team. Sorry about that :(
============================
Know that they are coming, I just don't have a date for you. I can tell you the battery life is outstanding :)

Personal testing, I have gotten 14 hours on a singe charge, WiFi at 75%, playing Pandora, volume at 20. (This is a personal experience only)

MelonMonkey
2009-11-11, 16:47
Any specs on the battery? Voltage, mAh, chemistry (NiMH, LiIon, LiPo, etc.)?

tcutting
2009-11-11, 18:05
For info on the Radio battery pack, check this thread:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=68100

MelonMonkey
2009-11-12, 10:45
Thanks for the link. I'm a little disappointed they decided to use a proprietary package on the AAs. Seems a little wasteful IMO, both in manufacturing and recycling/disposal. It does give Logitech one healthy markup though.

pfarrell
2009-11-12, 10:48
MelonMonkey wrote:
> Thanks for the link. I'm a little disappointed they decided to use a
> proprietary package on the AAs.

This cynicism is not justified. Rechargable batteries tend to go boom if
mishandled. The engineers say that the package includes a
micro-controller and sensors to detect heat and charge rate, and make
adjustments to optimize battery life.

Its not just eight random AA rechargeable battery units.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

MelonMonkey
2009-11-12, 17:10
This cynicism is not justified.


It's justified to me. I'm an engineer.



Rechargable batteries tend to go boom if
mishandled.


No, they really don't. Maybe you're thinking of defective Lithium cells that expanded during a charge cycle. You know, the big Sony battery fiasco of a couple of years back. NiMH and NiCd are very stable and I've not heard of any instances of them causing any issue when not in use, while being handled. Maybe dumped into a fire. In charging they're also very robust if your charger is designed and built well.


The engineers say that the package includes a
micro-controller and sensors to detect heat and charge rate, and make
adjustments to optimize battery life.

That's not what it said in the other post. And it would be a very bad design to include a micro-controller in the battery pack as opposed to the charger (in the radio). What was said is that the packs contain a thermistor and a fuse. The thermistor, reporting back the temperature of the cells, is one way to tell when the charge cycle has completed. It's not the only way to tell and there are some nice charging ICs out there that can do fine without one.

BTW, the packs contain 10 cells.

The big danger with an open bay accepting standard AA cells is that someone might put an incompatible chemistry cell into the compartment. Such as dumping in 1 or more alkalines. There exist ICs that can detect alkalines and prevent a charge current - though I'm not sure if there are any available that can deal with 10 cells at one time.


Its not just eight random AA rechargeable battery units.


No, it's 10 regular NiMH AA cells wired in series with surface mounted thermistor and a few other bits of wire, then wrapped in black plastic, perhaps even heat shrink tubing.

Logitech have used standard AA cells in the past for things like mice, while including a warning not to insert regular (or any other) batteries.

Anyway, I'm not a fan of proprietary packs where they can be avoided, especially if they're just going to use regular sized cells (ie. the dimensions don't warrant something custom or less common). But as mentioned, what gets me the most is the extra cost and the fact it's bundled with a remote. These are streamlining/logistical measures and I'm sure Logitech will do fine with them. It doesn't mean I have to like it or a agree with it.
[/QUOTE]

pfarrell
2009-11-12, 17:44
MelonMonkey wrote:
>> The engineers say that the package includes a
>> micro-controller and sensors to detect heat and charge rate, and make
>> adjustments to optimize battery life.
>
> That's not what it said in the other post. And it would be a very bad
> design to include a micro-controller in the battery pack as opposed to
> the charger (in the radio).

This is far too broad a statement. There are good reasons to include the
25 cents of microcontroller and sensors in the battery pack.

Whether that is what was done, I don't know. I've never seen the battery
pack for the Radio

> BTW, the packs contain 10 cells.

You sure about this?

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

iPhone
2009-11-12, 18:10
Thanks for the link. I'm a little disappointed they decided to use a proprietary package on the AAs. Seems a little wasteful IMO, both in manufacturing and recycling/disposal. It does give Logitech one healthy markup though.

With todays new regulations they really had no choice. This is the future of battery packs if a company is going to sell the same pack world wide. This is also not a case of recharging AA NiMetal batteries in an external charger and then repeatedly removing and installing them. This battery pack is installed and recharged in the SB Radio so precautions and requirements must be meant. A proprietary pack meets the requirements to install and repeatedly recharge inside the unit.

MelonMonkey
2009-11-13, 09:31
> BTW, the packs contain 10 cells.[/color]
You sure about this?


Yes, I'm sure. You could at least read the post that was linked and see Caleb's battery comments and specs instead of just trying to bash what I wrote because you don't agree with it. My comments are based on facts and industry experience.


It's a 10 AA NiMH pack. It's 5x2 AA batteries.

Yes, they actually are low-self-discharge type. 2000mAH.

it's a battery pack with a thermistor and fuse, and 2 mid-point monitoring voltages.

Once again, one of those pesky trade-offs. Cost vs. size/weight vs. compliance regulations. Li-Ion is good, easy to chage, but they have a tendency to explode -- thus the necessary safety circuits (extra cost). It-Poly is less reacitve, but still has very substantial regulatory requirements. Ni-MH is very safe, less expensive, and for our requirements absolutely sufficient. We didn't need super high power/weight ratio (like a cell phone), nor high power/volume ratio (cell phone/laptop), which is where Lithium power solutions excel. The Radio needed high voltage, and 6-hour minimum playtime. Ni-MH was the chosen solution for that requirement.



Anyway, IMO, the battery pack and remote package is too expensive for my tastes. I believe they will still sell, though I think at $25 they'd sell a lot more and still provide decent profit. Am I allowed to have an opinion? I know how much it costs to manufacture and ship remotes and AA NiMH cells like this in China. All the power to Logitech for a decent revenue stream, I just really wish that at $200 it had been rolled into the base radio package.

pfarrell
2009-11-13, 09:37
MelonMonkey wrote:
> Yes, I'm sure. You could at least read the post that was linked and
> see Caleb's battery comments and specs instead of just trying to bash
> what I wrote because you don't agree with it.

Nope, I am bashing your posts because I think you are a bully and jerk.

Love
Pat

iPhone
2009-11-13, 13:42
Anyway, IMO, the battery pack and remote package is too expensive for my tastes. I believe they will still sell, though I think at $25 they'd sell a lot more and still provide decent profit. Am I allowed to have an opinion? I know how much it costs to manufacture and ship remotes and AA NiMH cells like this in China. All the power to Logitech for a decent revenue stream, I just really wish that at $200 it had been rolled into the base radio package.

Of course you are allowed to have an opinion but there are more things involved then that 10 AA NiMH cost less the $25. Also it is your right not to buy either the SB Radio or the factory battery pack. If you're so knowledgeable and think a $25 pack will sell like hot cakes, then manufacture and sell your own pack. BTW the pack IS basically $25 dollars, the problem is that its bundled with a $25 remote!

Since you brought up Caleb's post, he said one of the issues was "Compliance" which in my opinion is also one of the main reasons they went the way they went.

jmpage2
2009-11-13, 15:43
Yes, I'm sure. You could at least read the post that was linked and see Caleb's battery comments and specs instead of just trying to bash what I wrote because you don't agree with it. My comments are based on facts and industry experience.



Anyway, IMO, the battery pack and remote package is too expensive for my tastes. I believe they will still sell, though I think at $25 they'd sell a lot more and still provide decent profit. Am I allowed to have an opinion? I know how much it costs to manufacture and ship remotes and AA NiMH cells like this in China. All the power to Logitech for a decent revenue stream, I just really wish that at $200 it had been rolled into the base radio package.

Considering your knowledge and experience in this area I think it would be wonderful for you to manufacture alternate battery packs that can be purchased for under $25. With a warranty of course should anything go wrong.

I agree that the S-Radio should have had the battery standard, along with the remote for that matter, but unfortunately such decisions lie in the brains of marketing dweebs.

funkstar
2009-11-13, 16:55
I agree that the S-Radio should have had the battery standard, along with the remote for that matter, but unfortunately such decisions lie in the brains of marketing dweebs.
And it would have made the Radio more expensive for everyone, even those that don't want the battery or the remote.

MelonMonkey
2009-11-14, 13:35
It wouldn't make any sense at all for a third party to develop and market their own battery for the radio. Unless you want to make peanuts. Such a niche product would simply not provide a viable market to enter for a third party. This isn't an ipod accessory.

I extoll the virtues of the SB products in a lot of threads and think it's a little ridiculous when people bash the technology unfairly. But I sincerely hope that I don't come off as snide as I've seen some of the other replies in here.

In the future I should probably just keep my mouth shut about pricing issues because it's clear there are a lot of people in different situations which make everything relative. This isn't a forum where many people have manufacturing or OEM/ODM experience either, so I suppose discussions bordering on those subjects are moot from that perspective as well.

vw195
2009-11-14, 18:43
It wouldn't make any sense at all for a third party to develop and market their own battery for the radio. Unless you want to make peanuts. Such a niche product would simply not provide a viable market to enter for a third party. This isn't an ipod accessory.

I extoll the virtues of the SB products in a lot of threads and think it's a little ridiculous when people bash the technology unfairly. But I sincerely hope that I don't come off as snide as I've seen some of the other replies in here.


FWIW I think most of your points were dead on. People don't necessarily want to know the truth

jmpage2
2009-11-17, 15:11
FWIW I think most of your points were dead on. People don't necessarily want to know the truth

I think what most people want is a battery pack for their radio.

vw195
2009-11-17, 15:41
I am one of those who want a battery pack

Phil Leigh
2009-11-17, 15:41
I think what most people want is a battery pack for their radio.

Correct. I also think most people don't want a lecture on the lack of correlation between BOM and retail price... however, every so often we seem to get one. It's not like we don't all know!

bluegaspode
2009-11-17, 16:52
I also don't like the price for the battery pack (why would I need a bundled remote ?)

Anyway - as the price of the radio already dropped from 180 to 160 (and in some places can even be bought for 150$) I just expect the price for the battery pack will soon drop as well.

Thanks Melon Monkey - I read your arguments with interest.

testmatch
2009-11-18, 15:36
I think what most people want is a battery pack for their radio.

I certainly do. It's still not reappeared as an item for sale on the Logitech UK site. There's still just the mentions on http://blog.logitech.com/2009/09/03/logitech-unveils-squeezebox-radio-and-squeezebox-touch/ saying it should be available "starting in December" and on http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/wireless_music_systems/devices/5847&cl=gb,en?section=specs

John

kantblue
2009-11-19, 05:36
Couldn't agree more with the other posters here.

I have now put my squeezebox radio back in its box as without the battery pack I can't use it in the place I purchased it for.

I notice now that the battery pack has completely disappeared from the website which is not a good sign IMHO.

I also don't want or need the remote, just the battery pack.

kantblue

funkstar
2009-11-19, 08:09
Before the Radio was released, there was discussion about the Accessories Pack in the Beta forum. This may not still be the plan, but Logitech did intend having the two items as separate accessories eventually. Although I would guess they would only be available through Logitech and some specialist retailers, where as the Accessories Pack will most likely be available on shelves along wide the Radio itself.

These things take time, especially at this time of year and when you are importing everything from China. There are only so many ships and containers sailing around the world to fulfil the western worlds desire for Christmas gifts and other paraphernalia. Production schedules will also be tight, there may be a complete shortage of AA cells from that supplier, there may be a very low production rate from the factory assembling them together into the pack and testing them until back logs are worked through.

Only a few of the beta testers have batteries, I still have a beta hardware unit and probably won't get a retail version until the start of the year sometime.

CheezWiz
2009-11-25, 13:55
Melons posts were spot-on in my opinion, from a technical stand-point.

Pat, there is ZERO reason to have any charging logic on a NiMH battery pack. That is only needed with Lithium-Ion cells.

In this pack, the thermistor is there to insure that the pack does not go into thermal runaway because of a shorted or reversed polarity cell. The additional monitoring points can also be used to detect deficient cells. Ideally, they would also be used to balance-charge a pack of this size as that is the worst issue with a large number of cells in series. They can also be used to turn off the radio if one section of the pack becomes sufficiently more discharged than the other parts..

As for price.. I think $25 is fair for a pack of 10 cells. I initially thought it was only 5 cells after looking at the web page. However, I would hope they are high quality Japanese cells and not the often inferior Chinese nonequivalents..

I will certainly buy the accessory pack as soon as it is available. I can never have enough remotes around the house. However, it will likely be the last time I buy a pack and will instead opt to build my own.

I have found packs of this nature very disappointing in recent years. I build my own packs for everything. I even converted my Scooba and Roomba to Lithium-Ion. I can usually build the highest quality pack with much stronger cells for 1/2 to 2/3 the cost of a retail replacement. Of course, you have to enjoy playing with electronics first..

As for MM's comments in this thread, I found them to be neither Bully-ish or Jerk-ish, but I have never seen any of his other threads..

I would love to get a look at a pack though. This is the one suck-point of the radio. It's assembly quality is too good for me to take it apart and try to reverse-engineer the charge circuit to figure out the wiring for the pack. Looking at the thing I have to wonder if logitech kidnapped an Apple designer. Don't mess with a good thing is what I keep telling myself... Be patient....

lemmy999
2009-12-02, 06:29
I wouldn't say there is zero reason for logic on a NiMH battery pack. But it is way less complicated than it is for a Li-Ion and of course you can get away with just trickle charging a NiMH if you want. If you want to charge a NiMH battery as fast as possible (say at 1C...which for be 2000mA for a 2000mAh battery). Then a good way to determine charge termination is to look at dT/dt...or the change in battery pack temperature with time. If the change in temperature over a unit time exceeds a certain limit, then the pack is charged and it is time to terminate the constant current charging cycle. A NiCad cell voltage will start to drop when it is fully charged, this can be used to terminate charging for this type of battery. But for a NiMH, this voltage drop is much less pronounced. So a dT/dt method is used instead. So is that all they are doing with this pack? Just looking at dT/dt? I assume the resistor divider is just to provide a low voltage sense point back to the simple charging IC and the fuse is to prevent currents from getting too high if something becomes shorted. Seems like a very simple pack to me. What does the connector on the radio look like?

CheezWiz
2009-12-05, 10:11
The connector is a simple 8 pin, two rows of four, at I.C. standard spacing.
Three pins are ground..

My statement about logic on the pack is that there are so many inexpensive smart charging IC's from folks like Maxim that can do advanced charge techniques on NiCad and NiMH pack with very little cost..

The only real reason to have actual logic chips on the pack are to keep them from blowing up. LiIon packs are the example.

To put the added cost of on-pack IC's for NiMH would be the work of a rookie engineer... who would soon be jobless... NiCad and NiMH are very forgiving and stable..

slally
2010-01-30, 18:02
Any update on availability? I just did an Amazon search and didn't come up with anything. Really looking forward to making my Radio more mobile. Thanks.

Sean

davein
2010-01-30, 18:08
On 1/30/2010 8:02 PM, slally wrote:
> Any update on availability? I just did an Amazon search and didn't come
> up with anything. Really looking forward to making my Radio more
> mobile. Thanks.
>
> Sean
>
>
>
Same here. Every time I want to move the radio I have to turn it off,
unplug, and plug in where an available outlet is.

Chunkywizard
2010-01-31, 10:58
The US website says Feb, and Andy said they are built just waiting on a bug fix due for release in 7.4.2 which is out very soon. Fingers crossed it isn't too long to wait.

CW

Richie
2010-01-31, 12:29
It's appeared on the Logitech website now:

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/wireless_music_systems/devices/6066&cl=gb,en

It's not available for preorder yet but you can sign up to be notified when it's available.

Looks like it's release is getting close.

Richard

BobbyBee
2010-01-31, 14:50
Looks good but I hope the price comes down a little... At almost 1/3 of the price of the Radio (Well nearly to 1/2 considering the price I've just ordered my Radio for) I'm not sure I'd be willing to take the plunge... I'd like to, buuut... !

I was kind of hoping for a different remote to the Boom, but the main thing is the battery anyway. But surely 45 is well over the mark? I've had custom battery packs made for R/C models at a cost of $10 before and these were with (At the time) very advanced cells.

Does anybody agree, or am I just expecting too much? :)

davein
2010-01-31, 16:26
It's a 10 pin connector. If you could figure out the pinout to the connector, you could use an off the shelf pack, or have one made. I'm sure a universal remote could be used also.

toby10
2010-02-01, 04:48
It's a 10 pin connector. If you could figure out the pinout to the connector, you could use an off the shelf pack, or have one made. I'm sure a universal remote could be used also.

I'd be very careful making/using a third party battery pack with the Radio.
It's more than just a pinout and throwing some batteries together with a rubber band. ;)

BobbyBee
2010-02-01, 05:39
I'd be very careful making/using a third party battery pack with the Radio.
It's more than just a pinout and throwing some batteries together with a rubber band. ;)

45 more than just a pinout and throwing some batteries together with a rubber band?

toby10
2010-02-01, 05:44
45 more than just a pinout and throwing some batteries together with a rubber band?

For you, apparently not. :)
My comment had nothing to do with the MSRP.
I'm just saying that if you think you are going to slap together some batteries and add a pin connector you may well destroy the Radio and void your warranty, hence my caution in doing so. :)

albright
2010-02-01, 05:53
this guy built one

http://cms.diodenring.de/de/electronic/microcontroller/92-squeezebox

Phil Leigh
2010-02-01, 06:48
It's a 10 pin connector. If you could figure out the pinout to the connector, you could use an off the shelf pack, or have one made. I'm sure a universal remote could be used also.

The Logitech Harmony One remote works fine...

slally
2010-02-01, 15:40
The US website says Feb, and Andy said they are built just waiting on a bug fix due for release in 7.4.2 which is out very soon. Fingers crossed it isn't too long to wait.

CW

Thanks, I couldn't find the info on the site. The accessories page had nothing ('check back later') last time I looked, but somebody says it's up on the site now.

Going to check...

Ikabob
2010-02-08, 04:15
Any word on the battery?

Chunkywizard
2010-02-08, 04:21
There was a report that the website now states March 31st :-S I PMed MickeyG and asked if he could update the sticky at the top of the radio section of the forum but nothing has happened yet.

CW

valentine
2010-02-08, 08:54
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=75049