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adydula
2009-10-21, 19:29
I hope logitech is listening, the main reason to buy the new touch is the ability to use an external USB drive and with many of us that want to load more than 32gb of music not supporting NTFS is really a lousy decision.

I sincerlehy hope NTFS is supported on day 1, so we can use larger drives to add to the convience of using the Touch with larger music collections.

I have a Touch on preorder and the main reason is to be able to use a USB drive and not have to have a PC on and running....

I also understand that if you wanted to use a external USB drive along with a wirless or enet connection at the same time will also be possible.

Couple this with an improved 24/96 Dac this is making the touch very desireable for many of us that dont want NAS, Raid or networking complications.

Again. please. please support NTFS!!

Thanks
Alex

dean
2009-10-21, 20:09
Please add your vote (and cc for status) on the bug:

https://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12675


On Oct 21, 2009, at 7:29 PM, adydula wrote:

>
> I hope logitech is listening, the main reason to buy the new touch is
> the ability to use an external USB drive and with many of us that want
> to load more than 32gb of music not supporting NTFS is really a lousy
> decision.
>
> I sincerlehy hope NTFS is supported on day 1, so we can use larger
> drives to add to the convience of using the Touch with larger music
> collections.
>
> I have a Touch on preorder and the main reason is to be able to use a
> USB drive and not have to have a PC on and running....
>
> I also understand that if you wanted to use a external USB drive along
> with a wirless or enet connection at the same time will also be
> possible.
>
> Couple this with an improved 24/96 Dac this is making the touch very
> desireable for many of us that dont want NAS, Raid or networking
> complications.
>
> Again. please. please support NTFS!!
>
> Thanks
> Alex
>
>
> --
> adydula
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> adydula's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=33723
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70142
>
>

thomasfoerster
2009-10-21, 23:53
@adyula:
Why do you think you need NTFS?
The only restriction of fat32 is that no single file may be larger than 2GB.
But hey, do you really have seen an audio file larger than 2GB?

I am using USB drives with 500GB and 1TB with fat32 and can see no disadvantage at all.

Why anyone could insist he needs other file systems than fat32, I don't understand.

Thomas

Phil Leigh
2009-10-22, 00:49
I reformatted one of my 1Tb music drives to fat32 and it works fine.

JJZolx
2009-10-22, 01:49
The reason that NTFS support is needed is that external USB drives are now being sold with NTFS formatting out of the box. That's the only reason. And if it's not supported when the Touch is released, Logitech will only be screwing themselves and nobody else.

tamanaco
2009-10-22, 05:36
Here is what MS says about FAT and NTFS

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q100108

I'd say that if you want "portability" (you use your drive with several platforms) FAT32 is the way to go. If your environment is homogeneous (All Windows systems) I'd use NTFS.

In regards to performance if you're using an external USB drive you won't gain much on performance with NTFS as the USB connection becomes the bottleneck. Don't quote me, but I believe that the performance advantage of NTFS is due to its smaller clusters size. Btw, I have seen FAT32 partitions formatted using 3rd party applications that are larger that the "officially" Windows supported size. FAT32 4GB limitation on file size comes into play if you use the drive for backup because backup applications can create files that are larger than that. NTFS also provides better security, but if you're using the drive just to store music files I don't see the need for security and its overhead.

adydula
2009-10-22, 09:12
Hello,

This is from Microsoft:

Note the following limitations when you use the FAT32 file system with Windows XP:

Clusters cannot be 64 kilobytes (KB) or larger. If clusters are 64 KB or larger, some programs (such as Setup programs) may incorrectly calculate disk space.

A FAT32 volume must contain a minimum of 65,527 clusters. You cannot increase the cluster size on a volume that uses the FAT32 file system so that it contains fewer than 65,527 clusters.

The maximum disk size is approximately 8 terabytes when you take into account the following variables: The maximum possible number of clusters on a FAT32 volume is 268,435,445, and there is a maximum of 32 KB per cluster, along with the space required for the file allocation table (FAT).

You cannot decrease the cluster size on a FAT32 volume so that the size of the FAT is larger than 16 megabytes (MB) minus 64 KB.

You cannot format a volume larger than 32 gigabytes (GB) in size using the FAT32 file system during the Windows XP installation process.

Windows XP can mount and support FAT32 volumes larger than 32 GB (subject to the other limits), but you cannot create a FAT32 volume larger than 32 GB by using the Format tool during Setup.

If you need to format a volume that is larger than 32 GB, use the NTFS file system to format it. Another option is to start from a Microsoft Windows 98 or Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition (Me) Startup disk and use the Format tool included on the disk.


This said the file size limitation of 4gb is not an issue for us.

The main concerns are:

1. You can not format a FAT32 partition or volume greater than 32gb using WIN XP. You can mount drives partitioned larger than 32gb but its with XP.
Does the linux OS support partitions larger than 32gb? If the OS on the Touch will allow drives partitioned greater than 32gb this is good.

2. Many newer usb drives come preformatted with NTFS to support Microsofts NTFS etc..its there recommendation to use NTFS over FAT32 on large drives.
If a person gets a new usb drive partitioned with ntfs they may not know how or have a way to re-format this drive to FAT32. This will cause calls to logitech as these new large $99 1 TB USB drives come out , and they are out.

From some of the comments from thomas forester it seems that he is using drives formated larger than 32 gb , which is good. The newer ntfs drives would need to be re-formated etc.

Some folks hav 90,000 songs in their collections and NTFS will be an adavantage if the drivers are written to properly support the NTFS file structure...with larger and larger drives.

FAT32 as some have said in real world performance may not be that noticeable but its indeed better , forward looking and I would think that Logitech would want to be forward looking and best of breed...legacy standards are hard to leave sometime, but the time has come.!

Alex

Phil Leigh
2009-10-22, 09:38
Hello,

This is from Microsoft:

Note the following limitations when you use the FAT32 file system with Windows XP:

Clusters cannot be 64 kilobytes (KB) or larger. If clusters are 64 KB or larger, some programs (such as Setup programs) may incorrectly calculate disk space.

A FAT32 volume must contain a minimum of 65,527 clusters. You cannot increase the cluster size on a volume that uses the FAT32 file system so that it contains fewer than 65,527 clusters.

The maximum disk size is approximately 8 terabytes when you take into account the following variables: The maximum possible number of clusters on a FAT32 volume is 268,435,445, and there is a maximum of 32 KB per cluster, along with the space required for the file allocation table (FAT).

You cannot decrease the cluster size on a FAT32 volume so that the size of the FAT is larger than 16 megabytes (MB) minus 64 KB.

You cannot format a volume larger than 32 gigabytes (GB) in size using the FAT32 file system during the Windows XP installation process.

Windows XP can mount and support FAT32 volumes larger than 32 GB (subject to the other limits), but you cannot create a FAT32 volume larger than 32 GB by using the Format tool during Setup.

If you need to format a volume that is larger than 32 GB, use the NTFS file system to format it. Another option is to start from a Microsoft Windows 98 or Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition (Me) Startup disk and use the Format tool included on the disk.


This said the file size limitation of 4gb is not an issue for us.

The main concerns are:

1. You can not format a FAT32 partition or volume greater than 32gb using WIN XP. You can mount drives partitioned larger than 32gb but its with XP.
Does the linux OS support partitions larger than 32gb? If the OS on the Touch will allow drives partitioned greater than 32gb this is good.

2. Many newer usb drives come preformatted with NTFS to support Microsofts NTFS etc..its there recommendation to use NTFS over FAT32 on large drives.
If a person gets a new usb drive partitioned with ntfs they may not know how or have a way to re-format this drive to FAT32. This will cause calls to logitech as these new large $99 1 TB USB drives come out , and they are out.

From some of the comments from thomas forester it seems that he is using drives formated larger than 32 gb , which is good. The newer ntfs drives would need to be re-formated etc.

Some folks hav 90,000 songs in their collections and NTFS will be an adavantage if the drivers are written to properly support the NTFS file structure...with larger and larger drives.

FAT32 as some have said in real world performance may not be that noticeable but its indeed better , forward looking and I would think that Logitech would want to be forward looking and best of breed...legacy standards are hard to leave sometime, but the time has come.!

Alex

Alex, which part of this do you have a problem with?

1) I have successfully reformatted a 1Tb NTFS drive to FAT32 (several times actually) under XP using fat32format.exe.

2) Performance differances (NTFS vs FAT32) are irrelevant for an external USB drive since the USB interface is always the bottleneck.


Phil

MeSue
2009-10-22, 09:44
I want NTFS support because Windows Home Server will only back up to a NTFS formatted drive, so my music backup has to be on a NTFS drive and this is the drive I would want to use with the Touch when I don't have access to my server.

Phil Leigh
2009-10-22, 09:53
Don't get me wrong - of course it should eventually support NTFS!

adydula
2009-10-22, 11:30
Hey Phil,

The part(s) I have issues with are:

1. People that buy a large USB drive formatted with NTFS will have a rude awakening when their music on these drives are not recognized. Most people will not know how to find and use fat32format.exe. So supporting both FAT 32 and NTFS out of the box will be better for these users and for Logitech support not having to answer calls on this and also to tell a customer to go get a non-microsoft utility to format a drive that already has lots of music on it..ie transfer the music off , format with said utility, copy back etc...

I and you know there are workarounds but I work in PC development and dont have a problem with technology and making things work...but many of the appliance operators will have issues with this and call logitech...

just saying!


All the best
Alex

nicolas75
2009-10-23, 13:01
Just discovered this NTFS issue.
I own a squeezebox classic and I am very interested in the Touch.
But ...
I often have to deal with files larger than 4GB.
(big files coming from professional applications, or simply DVD iso images for movies)
I won't keep a specific obsolete FAT32 drive just for the Touch.
Not supporting NTFS is a showstopper for me.

(No I won't use linux formats, I have to deal too often with XP x86 and Seven x64)
Please, we are in 2009, FAT32 and 4GB limitation is totally obsolete ...

adydula
2009-10-23, 18:36
You can use fat32format.exe, u can find it on the web and format a larger drive than 32gb. This is unsupported by Microsoft.

Logitech really needs to understand they need to support the mose dominant file system out there.

This will reduce many sales when people find this is not in the plan for launch date.

They need to come out with a statement that NTFS will be supported and when.

Its as simle as that.

Even in Windows you can pull out a USN device and potentially loose data, I have on USB memory keys. It only took once to properly detach it from the Windows utility provided in the task bar...Microsoft did not stop the OS from going gold with this problem.

It could be addressed by documentation, readme files, this forum, and possibly a "touch here' to safely detach your usb drive.

Me personally I will have a usb drive semi-permantely attached, maybe once a month when adding to the drive I will remove it with power OFF and copy the new stuff and reattach and power on.

Again...lets get NTFS in the plan gentlemen...and thanks for listening and being customer driven!!

Alex

usch
2009-10-25, 10:45
The reason that NTFS support is needed is that external USB drives are now being sold with NTFS formatting out of the box.

Really? Not that I don't believe you, but I haven't seen any NTFS pre-formatted drives yet. Which manufacturer sells these? I have always seen NTFS as something proprietary to Microsoft. Even the 1TB disk I bought recently came with FAT32.

Those drives would not work with Linux or with a Mac either, so I suppose they put a warning "only suitable for Microsoft Windows" on the box?

NTFS support would be nice to have, without question, but it is not entirely trivial. Think of file ownership and access control lists, for example.

MeSue
2009-10-25, 10:58
Really? Not that I don't believe you, but I haven't seen any NTFS pre-formatted drives yet. Which manufacturer sells these? I have always seen NTFS as something proprietary to Microsoft. Even the 1TB disk I bought recently came with FAT32.

Most of the ones that come with backup solution are like that. I bought a Seagate Freeagent Go drive last July and it was preformatted NTFS.

nicolas75
2009-11-02, 04:24
Most of the ones that come with backup solution are like that. I bought a Seagate Freeagent Go drive last July and it was preformatted NTFS.

Just bought a small Western Digital essential 500GB USB
It is preformatted NTFS
Documentation provide a link if you need to reformat it for Mac.

ModelCitizen
2009-11-06, 02:55
I was about to reformat my 1tb USB backup drive to Fat32 so I could try out TinySC and as I result I've discovered:

1) It is impossible to format large USB drives to Fat32 using Windows XP Pro or Windows 7 gui (which I assume means impossible with Vista too).
2) The Fat32 file system is not capable of holding files larger than 4gb
3) The Fat32 file system is wasteful on disk space
4) Increasingly modern USB drives are being shipped formatted as NTFS
4) TinySC is not slated to support NTFS till 8.0.1 (!!!!)

None of the reasons given in the bug/enhancement for not supporting NTFS at launch add up when compared to the pain this will cause Touch buyers and Logitech support. NTFS support at release is not an enhancement, it's a necessity.

Vote for the bug https://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12675

MC

Themis
2009-11-06, 04:12
Voted also. I haven't used FAT32 for years: all my disks are NTFS.

ModelCitizen
2009-11-06, 04:34
Given that the reasons supplied in the bug for TinySC not supporting NTFS at release appear so inadequate can anyone think of any other reasons Logitech might not want to add NTFS support immediately?

The lack of NTFS support seems bizarre. Logitech's big push is towards the non-geeky mass market, the *vast* majority of who will use one of the last three Windows OS's. Many (most?) will not want to keep PCs on all the time (and are increasingly likely only to have laptops in the home anyway) and will naturally prefer to use TinySC for local music. If they buy a USB drive for this purpose the chances now seem good that it will be formatted as NTFS (and if they use the Windows gui to format it themselves they will *only* be able to format it as NTFS).

Many of this type of user will never have heard of NTFS or FAT32 (or the command line). All they will see is a product that they have paid for that does not do what they wanted. And Logitech will be perceived to have released an inadequate product before it was ready for market and with not enough thought.

MC

thomasfoerster
2009-11-06, 05:45
One reason might be that TinySC runs on some Linux OS.
As far as I know NTFS-support is still in beta-state on the Linux side...
Please correct me if I am wrong.

If that still is correct, Logitech has to decide if they support this beta feature by default or not.
Toshiba does with their WAP, but who knows what trouble they run into in the future..

jku
2009-11-06, 06:03
Given that the reasons supplied in the bug for TinySC not supporting NTFS at release appear so inadequate can anyone think of any other reasons Logitech might not want to add NTFS support immediately?

I have no idea if there are other motives, but the data loss aspect is quite real -- for removable drives that is.

The legal aspect may be another reason. I'd be really cautious about distributing Microsoft filesystem implementations as well, knowing their history on this issue... You never know when they'll bring up 15 year old patents that your implementation allegedly infringes (see the TomTom case).

I usually try to keep emotions out of computing but backstabbing people who try to work on interoperability is a bit too much for me. I understand that Microsoft has technologies they do not want others to use without royalties but the fact that they support zero filesystems that could be used without the risk of a patent attack is despicable.

usch
2009-11-06, 06:56
Still, I put the blame on the drive manufacturers in the first place if they sell NTFS preformatted drives not clearly labelled as "Not compatible with anything except Microsoft Windows".

The 4GB limit only affects users who need to store huge files, such as hi-res video. Regarding audio, a single 4GB file can hold almost 7 hours of uncompressed WAV/PCM at 44.1kHz, and even more if you use compression.

It is true that FAT32 wastes 16KB per file on average, as opposed to NTFS with 2KB of wasted space per file. Thus a library of 60,000 files will in fact waste about 900MB on FAT32. That might have been a problem on smaller drives, but on an 1TB drive that is only 0.09% of the total capacity. I would not call that "wasteful".

So the only reasons to use NTFS on an external drive are if you absolutely need to work with files bigger than 4GB, or if you need Windows' built in security mechanisms (ACL, EFS). Everybody else can use FAT32 just as well, and converting a FAT32-preformatted drive to NTFS is easily done if necessary. That leaves zero reasons to preformat drives with NTFS.

In the end manufacturers are giving up universal compatibility only to save a minority of users a few mouse clicks. If people find that their external disk does not work with the Touch because of that, they should send back the drive, not the player.

Having said that, I am all for NTFS support. I just dont see it as mandatory.

gharris999
2009-11-06, 07:38
One reason might be that TinySC runs on some Linux OS.
As far as I know NTFS-support is still in beta-state on the Linux side...
Please correct me if I am wrong.

If that still is correct, Logitech has to decide if they support this beta feature by default or not.
Toshiba does with their WAP, but who knows what trouble they run into in the future..
The linux ntfs-3g driver is in no way 'beta'. It's stable and included out of the box with both Fedora and Ubuntu: http://www.ntfs-3g.org/

Part of the problem with including the ntfs-3g driver in SqueezeOS may be it's reliance on fuse: http://fuse.sourceforge.net/ (File system in user space.) I'm not sure what the memory footprint of fuse+ntfs-3g is, but it might be a tad big for the Touch. Or, maybe the developers just haven't gotten around to compiling fuse+ntfs-3g for the Touch's arm processor. I don't know...just speculating here.

Another part of the problem may be that, because TinySC will write data to the external drive, the developers may be wary of ntfs-3g, thinking that TinySC+ntfs-3g will have the capability of trashing the user's drive. I'm not sure of the true merits of that argument either and I wonder if it's just based in prejudice due to lack of experience with ntfs-3g. Personally, my experience has been that ntfs-3g seems just as reliable as the linux fat32 implementation, but I'm sure other folks can provide contrary examples.

Finally, the same folks who authored the open source ntfs-3g driver also make a closed, commercial version: http://www.tuxera.com/products/tuxera-ntfs-commercial/ Andy has talked about including this driver in a later release of SqueezeOS.

andyg
2009-11-06, 23:43
r8028 of the firmware has ntfs-3g added. Until we work out how to add this to udev for automount, you will have to manually mount your devices like this:

# mkdir /media/sda1
# ntfs-3g /dev/sda1 /media/sda1

Let me know how it works out. I was able to scan a test directory of 4 albums on an NTFS USB stick and write the SBS database to it just fine.

ModelCitizen
2009-11-07, 04:55
Let me know how it works out.

I've added my 1tb USB NTFS formatted backup disk and started TinySC. It sounds like it's scanning the disk now although I could not find any way to point TinySC at the music files so it must be happily rummaging through all mine and my wifes documents too.

I guess it will take a few hours to complete although I'd be stunned (and over the moon) if it does. My touch utilises 33% of it's available memory when it is running without TinySC so I just can't see how this scan could work. But anyway, thanks Andy. If my disk corrupts I know it's my own fault. :-)

# mkdir /media/sda1
# ntfs-3g /dev/sda1 /media/sda1
The disk contains an unclean file system (0, 0).
The file system wasn't safely closed on Windows. Fixing.
#

MC

andyg
2009-11-07, 06:32
TinySC is configured to scan the entire drive, you can edit /etc/squeezecenter/prefs/server.prefs and change the audiodir pref if you want.

I would recommend running the scanner like this to see how it's doing and what kind of scan performance you're getting.

/usr/squeezecenter/scanner.pl --wipe --rescan --progress --nostatistics

ModelCitizen
2009-11-07, 06:50
Hmmmm.. much as I'd like to edit the directory TinySC scans my Linux command line skills are not up to that. I can start the scanner as you suggest though and will do next time. BTW. I attach my USB drive via SataII cable to my main Windows machine (hmm I woinder if this means I can have it attached to both the TOuch and my main machine at the same time?) and there is not way to detatch it elegantly (as there might be with USB) so I have to either pull out the cable or power the drive down. I guess this means that the TinySC code will always report:

"The disk contains an unclean file system (0, 0).
The file system wasn't safely closed on Windows. Fixing."

I atempted to use the Touch whilst the scanner was operating and the device crashed and restarted by itself. Then I couldn't get it to see my main music library. It kept trying to find my Touch library even though I'd turned TinySC off.

This is probably not the right forum for this.

MC

adydula
2009-11-10, 18:04
Just got this from Logitech:

Hi Alexander,

The Squeezebox Touch will support the following file formats for USB hard drives:

FAT16
FAT32
NTFS (read-only)
MAC OS Extended
MAC OS Extended (Journaled) (read-only)

Meaning that it will be able to play music off of an NTFS partition, however it will be unable to copy/paste/delete or rename the files.

you can find more information here: http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/USB_Compatibility

Regards,

Trevor F.
Logitech Squeezebox Tier 2

I hope this means on day 1...

So the next question is: Will we have these by X-mas?

MelonMonkey
2009-11-11, 09:17
The big reason why NTFS support would likely not be in TinySC or available for other platforms is simple. It's a proprietary format. Microsoft AFAIK, do not publish detailed specs nor source code to get it implemented elsewhere. They certainly also don't license a stack that can be implemented in other operating systems.

To fully use NTFS you must rely on a third-party driver which has been developed primarily by reverse engineering. NTFS-3G, Paragon NTFS, etc.

It would be far too big an undertaking for Logitech to develop its own NTFS driver - it has taken the above organizations years to get to where they are today. Even Mac OS can only read NTFS by default - you have to install one of the third-party solutions to be able to write.

Logitech must license the code to support NTFS. Andy has mentioned already that they'd likely go with a commercial solution. So it is quite a big deal to make it happen. However, it's a HUGE deal not to make it happen. Not having NTFS would affect a large percentage of customers. Unfortunately it would affect precisely the customers that this feature would be most useful for. I mean anyone who is going to go to the trouble of setting up a dedicated server would know how to obtain third party software to format their disks any which way. But the new TinSC is the perfect solution for the less savvy and mom and pop who just want to (or can only) connect an external drive - perhaps one they already have. They'll be stopped dead in their tracks when the Touch is unable to see any of their music.

MelonMonkey
2009-11-11, 09:27
Still, I put the blame on the drive manufacturers in the first place if they sell NTFS preformatted drives not clearly labelled as "Not compatible with anything except Microsoft Windows".

Who are these drives being sold to? Pretty much exclusively Windows and Mac OS users. Plug the drive into a Mac machine and it can easily be formatted by the customer. Anyone running Linux would know to do the same thing even if they had to compile a kernel to do it. ;) Selling NTFS formatted drives is a complete non-issue in terms of compatibility or customer confusion.



So the only reasons to use NTFS on an external drive are if you absolutely need to work with files bigger than 4GB

How about the fact you can't format in any other format with Windows XP? No one outside the geeks who download third-party formatting utils are formatting external drives in anything but NTFS - and haven't been for years.



In the end manufacturers are giving up universal compatibility only to save a minority of users a few mouse clicks. If people find that their external disk does not work with the Touch because of that, they should send back the drive, not the player.

I think you have this backwards. The minority of users are the only ones who would even know what FAT32 is. Everyone else has been using NTFS for 8 years or longer. No drive manufacturer is going to cater to the minority of users. That's why you don't see everyone selling SCSI disks.

Seeing as NTFS has been the standard on the desktop for at least 8 years (XP+) I think it's safe to say that if your device doesn't work with it, it's the device that's to blame. And that's exactly how every single customer is going to see it. That disk has worked everywhere else until today when I plugged it into my Touch. Period.


I just dont see it as mandatory.

I think it's mandatory. In fact, mandatory in the first product release. You don't want to make a negative impact on this type of product launch. Seeing as the Christmas buying period has already been blown (the Touch will not be out until some time in December) now is the perfect opportunity to delay it as necessary to make sure important issue like this are taken care of.

The world at large won't notice the delay because they don't even know about the Touch yet. Once it's marketed and hits display shelves, they will very much notice it doesn't support their disks.

aubuti
2009-11-11, 09:41
I think you have this backwards. The minority of users are the only ones who would even know what FAT32 is. Everyone else has been using NTFS for 8 years or longer. No drive manufacturer is going to cater to the minority of users. That's why you don't see everyone selling SCSI disks.

Seeing as NTFS has been the standard on the desktop for at least 8 years (XP+)
You have a lot of valid points, but there's no need to exaggerate. I honestly don't know what the format shares are for external drives over the past 8 years, but I do know that the bog-standard Buffalo 250GB external USB drive I bought 3 years ago arrived formatted FAT32. And I strongly doubt it's an outlier. Clearly the future is not FAT32, but it's not so far in the distant past as you make it out to be. And it does it really matter, because it's not as if it has to be a choice of either FAT32 or NTFS.

radish
2009-11-11, 09:49
Logitech must license the code to support NTFS.

Not sure they HAVE to - ntfs-3g is GPL, which they seem to have no issue with in SqueezeOS (e.g. Samba is in there). Of course they CAN license a commercial version and there are probably good reasons to do so.

gharris999
2009-11-11, 12:55
The big reason why NTFS support would likely not be in TinySC or available for other platforms is simple. It's a proprietary format. Microsoft AFAIK, do not publish detailed specs nor source code to get it implemented elsewhere. They certainly also don't license a stack that can be implemented in other operating systems.The same could be said for Fat and Fat32, and no one is talking about not including Fat32 support.


Even Mac OS can only read NTFS by default - you have to install one of the third-party solutions to be able to write.Not true with Snow Leopard. You do have to take an extra step to support RW with NTFS on OSX, but it's easy to do...using nothing but OSX's ntfs driver...no 3rd party driver necessary now.


Not having NTFS would affect a large percentage of customers. Unfortunately it would affect precisely the customers that this feature would be most useful for. I mean anyone who is going to go to the trouble of setting up a dedicated server would know how to obtain third party software to format their disks any which way. But the new TinSC is the perfect solution for the less savvy and mom and pop who just want to (or can only) connect an external drive - perhaps one they already have. They'll be stopped dead in their tracks when the Touch is unable to see any of their music.I couldn't agree more. I do wonder, though, about how robust the TinySC scanner will have to be made in order to successfully scan a huge collection. Personally, I'd love to see a separate windows app that will scan the NTFS drive and create the SQLite db on the external drive in a cache folder with all the track url fixed up to point to file:///media/sda1/blah blah. That would save folks the agony of waiting hours and hours for TinySC to scan a big drive. All the heavy lifting would have already been done by a big CPU machine.

SBSTouchPrep.exe. You know you want one.

pfarrell
2009-11-11, 13:05
gharris999 wrote:
> Personally, I'd love to see a separate windows app that
> will scan the NTFS drive and create the SQLite db on the external drive
> in a cache folder with all the track url fixed up to point to
> file:///media/sda1/blah blah. That would save folks the agony of
> waiting hours and hours for TinySC to scan a big drive. All the heavy
> lifting would have already been done by a big CPU machine.
>
> SBSTouchPrep.exe. You know you want one.

This is a very cool idea. Not sure if the mass market consumer will grok
it at all, but its great. Separation of skills and assignments, use big
iron to do big iron stuff, use little iron to make it personal.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

andyg
2009-11-11, 13:22
On Nov 11, 2009, at 3:05 PM, Pat Farrell wrote:

> gharris999 wrote:
>> Personally, I'd love to see a separate windows app that
>> will scan the NTFS drive and create the SQLite db on the external drive
>> in a cache folder with all the track url fixed up to point to
>> file:///media/sda1/blah blah. That would save folks the agony of
>> waiting hours and hours for TinySC to scan a big drive. All the heavy
>> lifting would have already been done by a big CPU machine.
>>
>> SBSTouchPrep.exe. You know you want one.
>
> This is a very cool idea. Not sure if the mass market consumer will grok
> it at all, but its great. Separation of skills and assignments, use big
> iron to do big iron stuff, use little iron to make it personal.

I have to say this is completely the wrong way to go. Nobody, especially the target user for TinySC, wants to care about scanning, a database, or anything! The use case I want to get to is this:

Plug in USB drive.
Popup on screen "initializing..." or something for a few seconds at most.
My Music -> USB Drive Name
2 menu items:
"Scan Progress: 1%, 1 hour remaining"
"Music Folder"
Music Folder -> can browse/play from the music folder structure until the scanner has finished scanning in the background.
After scanning is finished, the usual Artist, Album, etc menu items are present in the menu. Maybe the menu populates as things as scanned like in the regular server.

Bottom line is, you need to be able to play music off the drive within a very short amount of time. The tricky part is the scanner is going to have to run in the main server process for this to work, due to the limited memory available. So we need to get that right, and as fast as possible. I think we can get there...

Themis
2009-11-11, 13:56
I agree with Andy's approach, although it would be nice if TinySC could possibly use a (dated) cache of some kind, so that subsequent attaching of the same HDD could be scanned faster than the first time.

andyg
2009-11-11, 14:06
On Nov 11, 2009, at 3:56 PM, Themis wrote:

>
> I agree with Andy's approach, although it would be nice if TinySC could
> possibly use a (dated) cache of some kind, so that subsequent attaching
> of the same HDD could be scanned faster than the first time.

The database/cache is stored on the drive so yes, rescan when you plug the drive back in should be much faster (just looking for changes).

JJZolx
2009-11-11, 14:16
The use case I want to get to is this:

Plug in USB drive.
Popup on screen "initializing..." or something for a few seconds at most.
My Music -> USB Drive Name
2 menu items:
"Scan Progress: 1%, 1 hour remaining"
"Music Folder"
Music Folder -> can browse/play from the music folder structure until the scanner has finished scanning in the background.
After scanning is finished, the usual Artist, Album, etc menu items are present in the menu. Maybe the menu populates as things as scanned like in the regular server.

Any chance of seeing the return of fully incremental scanning? You'd have to do some kind of wrapup at the end of scanning each folder (operating on the assumption that folders are roughly equivalent to albums). After each folder, do an album wrapup, including finding artwork and compilation determination. It would make the library much more usable as each album is scanned. With a minimal amount of logic, this could also be optimized. For instance, if you've just found and cataloged a new album, there's no need to run the cleanups of stale data.

Overall, scanning would take a little longer because you're executing some extra queries at the end of each folder (or even track, if you want to get that incremental), so maybe it would need to be a scanning option.

andyg
2009-11-11, 14:20
Any chance of seeing the return of fully incremental scanning? You'd have to do some kind of wrapup at the end of scanning each folder (operating on the assumption that folders are roughly equivalent to albums). After each folder, do an album wrapup, including finding artwork and compilation determination. It would make the library much more usable as each album is scanned. With a minimal amount of logic, this could also be optimized. For instance, if you've just found and cataloged a new album, there's no need to run the cleanups of stale data.

Overall, scanning would take a little longer because you're executing some extra queries at the end of each folder (or even track, if you want to get that incremental), so maybe it would need to be a scanning option.

You just described basically how the new scanner operates. :) In fact, each *track* is handled individually, under the assumption that you can change just a single track and everything should just work, i.e. the album-level attributes can be updated, artwork changed, etc.

usch
2009-11-11, 15:23
The database/cache is stored on the drive so yes, rescan when you plug the drive back in should be much faster (just looking for changes).

I suppose this also means that you can take the USB drive from Touch #1, plug it into Touch #2, and use it there without the need for another full scan?

andyg
2009-11-11, 15:30
On Nov 11, 2009, at 5:23 PM, usch wrote:

>
> andyg;484329 Wrote:
>> The database/cache is stored on the drive so yes, rescan when you plug
>> the drive back in should be much faster (just looking for changes).
>
> I suppose this also means that you can take the USB drive from Touch
> #1, plug it into Touch #2, and use it there without the need for another
> full scan?

I guess you could do this. :)

jt25741
2009-11-11, 22:48
@adyula:
Why do you think you need NTFS?
The only restriction of fat32 is that no single file may be larger than 2GB.
But hey, do you really have seen an audio file larger than 2GB?

I am using USB drives with 500GB and 1TB with fat32 and can see no disadvantage at all.

Why anyone could insist he needs other file systems than fat32, I don't understand.

Thomas

I think NTFS was the first MS filesystem to support journaling. I have vague recollections of chkdsks lasting hours in the age of non-journaling disks with corruption. Todays huge disks could be torturous in this regard.

rotho
2009-11-12, 05:36
Just got this from Logitech:

Hi Alexander,

The Squeezebox Touch will support the following file formats for USB hard drives:

FAT16
FAT32
NTFS (read-only)
MAC OS Extended
MAC OS Extended (Journaled) (read-only)

Meaning that it will be able to play music off of an NTFS partition, however it will be unable to copy/paste/delete or rename the files.

you can find more information here: http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/USB_Compatibility

Regards,

Trevor F.
Logitech Squeezebox Tier 2

I hope this means on day 1...

So the next question is: Will we have these by X-mas?

I am a bit surprised that the above post has not been further commented.

As I use a Mac platform, I am particularly interested by the support of the HFS+ file format. In fact, while waiting for the Touch, I have bought two (for backup purpose) 1.5 TB external HDD, and formatted the 1st one in HFS+ and the 2nd one in FAT32, but I'd rather use the HFS+ format for both drives if the Touch supports the HFS+ format when it's released.

Can anyone confirm the support of HFS+ at the launch time of the Touch ?

I have also another question about the scanning performance of the Touch (used in standalone mode with TinySC) : will there be difference in the scanning time of a huge collection of music (for example, 1TB) between the FAT32, NTFS and HFS+ file formats ?

I ask this because I found that my FAT32 formatted 1.5 TB disk drive takes much longer to mount on my Mac (approximately 1 mn) whereas my HFS+ drive takes only a few seconds. So, perhaps the scanning process (and the access times ?) is also much longer with FAT32 drives that with NTFS or HFS+ drives ?

Themis
2009-11-12, 06:38
On Nov 11, 2009, at 3:56 PM, Themis wrote:

>
> I agree with Andy's approach, although it would be nice if TinySC could
> possibly use a (dated) cache of some kind, so that subsequent attaching
> of the same HDD could be scanned faster than the first time.

The database/cache is stored on the drive so yes, rescan when you plug the drive back in should be much faster (just looking for changes).
I want to say "good job folks", and I don't mean it in any paternalistic way whatsoever. :)

Mnyb
2009-11-12, 10:16
But it is still broken ?

The NTFS support was read only, how do you then write they databse to that disc ?



Originally Posted by adydula View Post
Just got this from Logitech:

Hi Alexander,

The Squeezebox Touch will support the following file formats for USB hard drives:

FAT16
FAT32
NTFS (read-only)
MAC OS Extended
MAC OS Extended (Journaled) (read-only)

Meaning that it will be able to play music off of an NTFS partition, however it will be unable to copy/paste/delete or rename the files.

you can find more information here: http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/USB_Compatibility

Regards,

Trevor F.
Logitech Squeezebox Tier 2


And where is EXT2/3 officially, unofficially I assume they work Linux without ext huh ?

gharris999
2009-11-12, 10:48
I have to say this is completely the wrong way to go. Nobody, especially the target user for TinySC, wants to care about scanning, a database, or anything!
Agreed. I only offered the SBSTouchPrep.exe idea as a stop-gap measure that allows you to get the product out the door and still claim full TinySC capability.

usch
2009-11-12, 15:41
Just got this from Logitech:
...

Meaning that it will be able to play music off of an NTFS partition, however it will be unable to copy/paste/delete or rename the files.

Since when do Squeezeboxes/Squeezeservers delete or rename music files on any file system?

andynormancx
2009-11-12, 15:47
Since when do Squeezeboxes/Squeezeservers delete or rename music files on any file system?

When the file system is shared for other devices to access using a Touch ;)

andyg
2009-11-12, 15:51
> adydula;483973 Wrote:
>> Just got this from Logitech:
>> ...
>>
>> Meaning that it will be able to play music off of an NTFS partition,
>> however it will be unable to copy/paste/delete or rename the files.

Who is giving you this incorrect info?

rotho
2009-11-12, 15:57
The USB compatibility page (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/USB_Compatibility) has been changed :

The following devices have been tested with Squeezebox Touch (Fab4):

Supported formats are:

1. FAT16
2. FAT32
3. NTFS
4. ext2/3

So, now there seems to be full support for NTFS (was read-only before), and ext2/3, but where has HFS+ gone ?

andyg
2009-11-12, 16:33
On Nov 12, 2009, at 5:57 PM, rotho wrote:

>
> The USB compatibility page
> (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/USB_Compatibility) has been
> changed :
>> The following devices have been tested with Squeezebox Touch (Fab4):
>>
>> Supported formats are:
>>
>> 1. FAT16
>> 2. FAT32
>> 3. NTFS
>> 4. ext2/3
>
> So, now there seems to be full support for NTFS (was read-only before),
> and ext2/3, but where has HFS+ gone ?

There is no good HFS driver for Linux. But I guess you guys need something else to whine about right? ;)

MelonMonkey
2009-11-12, 17:25
But I guess you guys need something else to whine about right? ;)

Is there absolutely anything else a forum is good for? In the past 20+ years on the net I haven't found one. ;)

BTW, at least Apple provide documentation for HFS+ - so you guys can take what's already out there for Linux and expand on it. Or hire someone to expand on it. I know at least one great Linux drive/filesystem guy I could recommend.

andyg
2009-11-12, 17:34
On Nov 12, 2009, at 7:25 PM, MelonMonkey wrote:

>
> andyg;484838 Wrote:
>> But I guess you guys need something else to whine about right? ;)
>
> Is there absolutely anything else a forum is good for? In the past 20+
> years on the net I haven't found one. ;)
>
> BTW, at least Apple provide documentation for HFS+ - so you guys can
> take what's already out there for Linux and expand on it. Or hire
> someone to expand on it. I know at least one great Linux
> drive/filesystem guy I could recommend.

You're kidding right? You think we have the time or the expertise to develop *filesystem drivers*?? Besides, if HFS+ were that well documented there would already be a very good driver. The fact that there is only a read-only driver (for journaled mode) suggests this is not the case (or that nobody cares).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HFS_Plus#Linux

Anyway, I don't see a need to support HFS+ on Touch, do any drives come pre-formatted that way? I doubt it.

Grahame
2009-11-12, 19:12
Anyway, I don't see a need to support HFS+ on Touch, do any drives come pre-formatted that way? I doubt it.

No doubt some iTunes user will complain that something like this
http://www.productwiki.com/western-digital-my-passport-for-mac/
or any of these
http://www.nextag.com/mac-external-hard-drive/compare-html
works on his Mac, but fails on his Touch :)

peterw
2009-11-12, 21:40
No doubt some iTunes user will complain

No doubt. I want to voice support for Andy and Logitech here. If HFS+ support is so important, someone ought to step up with a Linux driver for it, preferably GPL v2 so all Linux users would benefit, not merely Touch buyers. Even so, don't expect Logitech to embrace it until it seems stable & reliable.

Also, anybody who wants to can build their own .ko modules, scp them to Touch, and load them. As I've noted before, SqueezeOS on Touch is very open. Logitech could've opted for Tivo-like lockdown, signing firmware and trying to prevent loadable kernel modules, etc. They have not done anything of the sort. Kudos to Richard, Felix, and everybody they work with & report to for this openness.

MelonMonkey
2009-11-13, 09:50
I don't think it's relevant whether or not HFS+ is a valuable addition to the Linux community as a whole. It's obvious that it isn't. Linux is a marginal player at best. It's also not very relevant if a Logitech engineer thinks it makes marketing sense to have that support in the product they're working on.

What's relevant is whether or not HFS+ would make a valuable addition for Logitech who is trying to sell a commercial product to as many people as possible. Does it make financial sense to contract out to get it done? I can probably make a business case for it if I were being paid for my time. From a financial perspective, ext2/3 support would make no sense at all if it wasn't already essentially free. There's certainly no measurable market for it.

Whether or not a drive comes "pre-formatted" isn't as relevant as what format do customers normally format external drives themselves, whether manually or when prompted by the system. NTFS pre-formatted volumes are going to be reformatted HFS+ when used in a Mac.

If you don't value Mac customers, that's fine, but not likely something that should be bragged about in the forums. Logitech as a corporate entity clearly doesn't share that same view as numerous business units have made it a priority to support Mac OS. That includes the streaming audio unit since SBS runs perfectly well in Mac OS.

If smaller companies like SageTV can add HFS+ support to their streaming devices, I'm sure Logitech could make it work. I did mention I could refer an expert for a contract.

pfarrell
2009-11-13, 09:53
Engineers don't make product requirements.

MelonMonkey wrote:
> I did mention I could refer an expert for a contract.

Many times, I trust you get a big kickback if you can do the referral.



--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

andyg
2009-11-13, 09:58
Sigh, HFS is out, I just disabled it a few minutes ago. OSX is my primary development system so there's no hatred for Mac here (although HFS is a somewhat boneheaded filesystem, case-insensitive, and does stupid things with Unicode). As I said before, there is no good Linux driver.

In other news, as of r8091 NTFS should now auto-mount properly. :)

kesey
2009-11-13, 15:37
In other news, as of r8091 NTFS should now auto-mount properly. :)

Well done Andy. Thanks for all the straight talking, and for the willingness to talk at all. I love the flexibility and ease of use in listening to my music I've got by having Squeezebox/es. The Duet did take a while to get working well, but 7.4.2 for Windows certainly has made using it a pleasurable experience.

I'm looking forward to getting my hands on a Touch.

MelonMonkey
2009-11-14, 13:17
Pat, I strongly suggest you stop skating with those almost personal attacks.

Andy, understood, no HFS. Sorry to hear your position is so negative on the matter. I don't consider these forums an official place to make requests in any case, so you shouldn't feel like you have to make commitments in here either.

One should forward these types of support requests through marketing or management channels. I don't personally feel so strongly about the issue either way, I just thought I'd share my knowledge of the Mac market as I had with regards to NTFS proliferation.

Perhaps in the future Logitech will be willing to pay to add HFS+ support if they see enough potential customers view it as a necessity.

usch
2009-11-15, 11:58
I wonder how many Mac users actually buy a Squeezebox. Several friends of mine have Macs, but none of them would buy anything but original Apple equipment such as AirTunes on an AirPort Express. So the demand for HFS+ support is probably much smaller than the market share of Apple vs. Microsoft suggests.

And maybe the main obstacle will not be the file system, but that the Touch is not available in white. ;)

iPhone
2009-11-15, 12:10
I wonder how many Mac users actually buy a Squeezebox. Several friends of mine have Macs, but none of them would buy anything but original Apple equipment such as AirTunes on an AirPort Express. So the demand for HFS+ support is probably much smaller than the market share of Apple vs. Microsoft suggests.

And maybe the main obstacle will not be the file system, but that the Touch is not available in white. ;)

Good point about the color! But it really doesn't matter about the file type. Just because all the music is on a Mac doesn't mean one can't plug a FAT32 or NTFS USB drive in the back of the Mac and transfer all ones music to that drive USB drive to use with a Touch.

All my USB drives are FAT32 and I use them with my WinXP, Mac Mini, and Ubuntu PCs. The biggest issue in my mind is the file type, not the drive format (other then something so odd it shouldn't even be considered as supported). My Mac moves MP3s back and forth from my big USB drive, it sees a file type it recognizes and doesn't care about the drive format.

So other then already having a big USB drive formatted in HFS+ with all ones music on it, its not that big a deal. Besides, one could buy a FAT32 USB drive for the Touch and keep the HFS+ as the backup drive.

sebp
2009-11-15, 12:43
I wonder how many Mac users actually buy a Squeezebox.
I do. But I had a Squeezebox long before I got my Mac.

kmr
2009-11-15, 21:39
I wonder how many Mac users actually buy a Squeezebox. Several friends of mine have Macs, but none of them would buy anything but original Apple equipment such as AirTunes on an AirPort Express. So the demand for HFS+ support is probably much smaller than the market share of Apple vs. Microsoft suggests.

And maybe the main obstacle will not be the file system, but that the Touch is not available in white. ;)

Apple isn't quite that monochromatic anymore. I've got two white iMacs, but the spouse's MacBook Pro is the aluminum unibody; also have a black iPod and a purple iPod. And my SB3 (Slim Devices branded) is solid black; I bought it about 6 months after buying the first iMac. Since BestBuy has the Radio on sale this week, I may pick up a black Radio soon too.

jmpage2
2009-11-15, 22:59
I do. But I had a Squeezebox long before I got my Mac.

Me also. I had my squeezeboxes for years but just got my first Mac six months ago. Now have three Macs.

adydula
2009-11-17, 17:43
Andy..

I started this thread and I posted a bug via an invite from Logitech and have 3 or more replies from your Logitech 2nd level support tech as indicated in my post above you reference.

The name on the post is 'in' the post above: Trevor F, Logitech 2nd Level Support.

I am happy and hope the latest update to the compatibility list is indeed to fully support NTFS for both reading and writing.

I plan on just using a NTFS formatted 1TB USB drive so the writing to me is not important UNLESS I am missing something in the basic design on how the SB Touch will or needs to interface with external USB drives for its operation.

I was happily surprised to get a 2nd level support answer and now it seems that there is a even more current update about read and write for NTFS?

If this is inaccurate then PLEASE SET US STRAIGHT!

Alex

andyg
2009-11-17, 17:55
Tech Support is not the place to get answers about pre-release stuff like this. Right now it looks like NTFS will be fully supported.

sebp
2009-11-17, 18:12
As I'm currently beta testing the Touch, I'll try to give you some answers.


I plan on just using a NTFS formatted 1TB USB drive so the writing to me is not important UNLESS I am missing something in the basic design on how the SB Touch will or needs to interface with external USB drives for its operation.
The Touch requires write access to the mass media storage device connected to it (be it a SD card or a USB HDD), because the embedded server needs to be able to write its database file and artwork cache files somewhere.
FWIW, these files weigh around 90MB for my 15K+ tracks library, so storing them on the Touch's internal mass storage is not an option: it's just too tight.


I was happily surprised to get a 2nd level support answer and now it seems that there is a even more current update about read and write for NTFS?
Full NTFS support is being tested right now.
As far as I can tell from other testers' reports (I'm not using NTFS myself), it looks like it's working as good as EXT3 or FAT32.

adydula
2009-11-17, 20:26
Wow,

I work in development with development engineers, Product Asssurance, Worldwide Test Teams, Marketing etc..

It seems from your post that Logitech development and the rest of your team is OUT OF SYNC. And/Or your data input / output process's are not very well co-ordinated.

Dont take this the wrong way Andy, I enjoy talking to developers, I am one. But being a developer you know what can be done, what resource it takes and how hard / easy it may or may not be to accomplish.

When one gets an answer from 2nd level support tech that is questioned by a development engineer for an announced but obviously NOT fully developed product one begins to wonder about quality control and who is running the ship at Logitech!

Maybe you need to bring your entire team together and level set what you really want to tell the world about this product...good or bad.

I hope your working from a functional spec thats up to date and current. With well defined Use cases etc...that the whole team is is sync with.

I still look forward to this product, and am glad once again to see the mainstream NTFS file system being fully supported.

All the best
Alex

andyg
2009-11-17, 22:21
The spec for TinySC is basically "must be able to play music from an attached USB/SD device". Beyond that we're making it up as we go along. Normally we wouldn't even be discussing this in public but this is a special case due to the advance announcement. In the old Slim days we worked more closely with tech support but under Logitech it's become quite different. So I have no idea who that support person is and he probably has almost no info about the Touch yet, I don't think they have started training yet, certainly not on an unfinished feature like TinySC.

adydula
2009-11-18, 10:57
AndyG,

Understand, I wish you guys the best of luck in the process!

Marketing will always want it 'All', the public will want more, and all u guys have to do is to deliver on time!! (DEFECT FREE)!!

Aint development fun!!

Alex

gellie
2009-11-23, 11:04
I plan on buying a touch. I want to copy all my music to a wireless external dive. Will i be able to strean music from the external drive to the Touch? Do i need to buy a specfic type of wireless external drive? Thanks.

JJZolx
2009-11-23, 11:58
I plan on buying a touch. I want to copy all my music to a wireless external dive. Will i be able to strean music from the external drive to the Touch?

No. The Touch's internal server won't be able to access music attached to the network. It can only access directly attached USB drives. If you run Squeezebox Server on another computer on your network then you could get that to work.

gellie
2009-11-23, 12:42
do in other words i need to connect the external drive directly to the touch? via usb?

garym
2009-11-23, 12:44
do in other words i need to connect the external drive directly to the touch? Via usb?
yes

gellie
2009-11-23, 12:56
do any of the squeezebox devices work with a wireless drive? I really need a way to stream my music without keep my laptop on at all times. Thx

JJZolx
2009-11-23, 13:06
do any of the squeezebox devices work with a wireless drive? I really need a way to stream my music without keep my laptop on at all times. Thx

That's what you can do with the Squeezebox Touch. It's the only Squeezebox that runs an internal Squeezebox Server, so you don't have to run your computer all the time.

But it can't access files over the network.

It _can_ access files on a drive directly attached to it via USB.

And... It will share the attached USB drive over your network so that you can add, delete and edit the files in your music library from another computer.

gellie
2009-11-23, 13:13
Thank you. Can i use any external drive? Is there one brand or type u can recomend?

garym
2009-11-23, 13:19
Thank you. Can i use any external drive? Is there one brand or type u can recomend?
The touch is not even released yet, but I suspect that any standard USB external harddrive will work. The only issue has been whether it needs to be formatted with FAT32 or NTFS (drives can come formatted either way). It appears that the released version will work with either. You can search the web for brands people think are good in general (unrelated to squeezebox use), but I can tell you that I've used 5 or 6 different brands (small drives, large drives (1.5 TB), etc. and haven't had a problem with any of them. Of course, all drives will fail eventually, so you should always have backups. My music is on at least 4 drives in 3 different physical locations.

JJZolx
2009-11-23, 13:30
Thank you. Can i use any external drive? Is there one brand or type u can recomend?

Only that you may want a 2.5" drive. If you use a 2.5" drive then it can (probably) be powered from the USB bus. A 3.5" drive will require separate power, so more wires and another wall wart. The only question is whether you'll have enough storage space on a 2.5" drive, as their capacities aren't as great.

gellie
2009-11-23, 13:32
two more question? you mention it needs to be formatted with FAT32 or NTFS . Is that something you have to request before buying or something you do yourself. I plan on copying my library from itunes on my Mac to the new drive. Is there a program i need to use or can i jusy "drag" it over to my new drive? Thansk again

iPhone
2009-11-23, 14:05
two more question? you mention it needs to be formatted with FAT32 or NTFS . Is that something you have to request before buying or something you do yourself. I plan on copying my library from itunes on my Mac to the new drive. Is there a program i need to use or can i jusy "drag" it over to my new drive? Thansk again

If you are speaking of USB drives, most of them say how they are currently formatted on the box. Most used to be FAT32 with more and more now coming formatted in NTFS.

As far as the MAC, depending on how and what the drive is used with, how it is formatted usually doesn't matter. I drag and drop files to a FAT32 drive that I use on an XP PC then connect it to my Mac Mini and drag and drop again.

To be more specific, we would need more details to be more specific as to what could and couldn't be done.

gellie
2009-11-23, 14:12
One thing i dont understand. How come the Touch has the ability to stream music from my computer wirelessly,but can from a wireless externaal hard drive?

JJZolx
2009-11-23, 14:22
One thing i dont understand. How come the Touch has the ability to stream music from my computer wirelessly,but can from a wireless externaal hard drive?

Squeezebox Server.

A Squeezebox can only play your music files by having Squeezebox Server running and having Squeezebox Server stream music to the player. It is required. To stream music from your computer to the Touch it requires Squeezebox Server to be running on the computer. The Touch doesn't access the files directly. The server streams the data to the Touch.

Server -> Player

But the Touch can run Squeezebox Server itself. It's actually a little computer and you still have the two-part connection, as shown above. But that version of Squeezebox Server has a limitation in that it can only access a hard drive directly connected to it via USB.

gellie
2009-11-23, 14:40
Thank you. Based on that set up,whats happends when i purchase new music on itunes? How would i get it over to my external drive? Would i have to hook it back up to my laptop every time?

JJZolx
2009-11-23, 14:46
Thank you. Based on that set up,whats happends when i purchase new music on itunes? How would i get it over to my external drive? Would i have to hook it back up to my laptop every time?

As I said above, the Touch can share the disk drive over the network, so that you can access the files from other computers on your network. So you'd just copy the files from your laptop to the Touch's disk drive.

gellie
2009-11-23, 14:53
When you say touch's disk drive, your refering to the externsl drive that im attaching to it?

garym
2009-11-23, 14:57
when you say touch's disk drive, your refering to the externsl drive that im attaching to it?

yes

gellie
2009-11-23, 15:01
Thanks. Its really too bad that you cant use a wireless external hard drive. would have been pretty cool.

Phil Leigh
2009-11-23, 15:18
Thanks. Its really too bad that you cant use a wireless external hard drive. would have been pretty cool.

I must be missing something but I can't imagine any scenario where a "wireless hard disk" would be preferable to attaching a USB disk to the Touch - apart from a wall-mount installation.

aubuti
2009-11-23, 16:05
I must be missing something but I can't imagine any scenario where a "wireless hard disk" would be preferable to attaching a USB disk to the Touch - apart from a wall-mount installation.
Maybe if you put the "wireless hard disk" in a different room, so you don't have the whirring HDD in your listening room.

gharris999
2009-11-23, 17:58
Only that you may want a 2.5" drive. If you use a 2.5" drive then it can (probably) be powered from the USB bus. A 3.5" drive will require separate power, so more wires and another wall wart. The only question is whether you'll have enough storage space on a 2.5" drive, as their capacities aren't as great.
I tried a pretty low power 2.5" drive yesterday: Hitachi HTS424020M9AT00, 20gig, 4200rpm, trying to run it with a very short, 7" usb cable.

Didn't work.

The drive just gave the usual plaintive click-click-cant-get-started sound until I plugged in the aux power source. That said, there may be more efficient drives and more efficient drive shells out there that might work. But this drive combo has worked for me in the past with systems that can deliver more current over the usb connection.

gharris999
2009-11-23, 18:17
two more question? you mention it needs to be formatted with FAT32 or NTFS . Is that something you have to request before buying or something you do yourself. I plan on copying my library from itunes on my Mac to the new drive. Is there a program i need to use or can i jusy "drag" it over to my new drive? Thansk again
If you're talking about a BIG disk (500gig or larger) and a BIG music collection, I'd go with NTFS, which uses the hard disk space much more efficiently than FAT32. In terms of copying your music files from your Mac to the usb connected NTFS drive, you can just "drag" the music to the new drive, but you have to jump through one hoop first. See: http://prasys.co.cc/2009/09/how-to-enable-native-readwrite-ntfs-for-snow-leopard/ and http://smokingapples.com/software/tips/snow-leopards-hidden-ntfs-readwrite-support/ to see what's involved in this 'hoop'.

Here is a GUI utility that I haven't personally tired, but it should make jumping through this particular hoop pretty painless: http://ntfsmounter.com/

PS: This is snow-leopard only. With leopard and older versions of OS X, you'll need to install mac-fuse and mac-ntfs-3g...both free, but both a little more bother to set up than the method cited above.

dean
2009-11-23, 18:28
We tested a bunch of 2.5" USB powered packaged drives and found that the ones that came with extra cables to steal power from a second USB port didn't work on Touch with it's single port.

All the drives that only had a single USB port and no extra connection for power worked fine.

The drive you mentioned has a 4.7W startup power requirement, which is 940mA, way over the 500mA USB limit.

The touch can provide a bit more than the limit (750mA, if I remember correctly), but this drive probably won't work, unless you have an enclosure that's doing some clever power management.

-dean




On Nov 23, 2009, at 4:58 PM, gharris999 wrote:

>
> JJZolx;488558 Wrote:
>> Only that you may want a 2.5" drive. If you use a 2.5" drive then it
>> can (probably) be powered from the USB bus. A 3.5" drive will require
>> separate power, so more wires and another wall wart. The only question
>> is whether you'll have enough storage space on a 2.5" drive, as their
>> capacities aren't as great.
> I tried a pretty low power 2.5" drive yesterday: Hitachi
> HTS424020M9AT00, 20gig, 4200rpm, trying to run it with a very short, 7"
> usb cable.
>
> Didn't work.
>
> The drive just gave the usual plaintive click-click-cant-get-started
> sound until I plugged in the aux power source. That said, there may be
> more efficient drives and more efficient drive shells out there that
> might work. But this drive combo has worked for me in the past with
> systems that can deliver more current over the usb connection.
>
>
> --
> gharris999
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> gharris999's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=115
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=70142
>
>

gharris999
2009-11-23, 18:40
We tested a bunch of 2.5" USB powered packaged drives and found that the ones that came with extra cables to steal power from a second USB port didn't work on Touch with it's single port.

All the drives that only had a single USB port and no extra connection for power worked fine.

The drive you mentioned has a 4.7W startup power requirement, which is 940mA, way over the 500mA USB limit.

The touch can provide a bit more than the limit (750mA, if I remember correctly), but this drive probably won't work, unless you have an enclosure that's doing some clever power management.

-dean
Heh. I thought that by getting a 4200rpm drive I was sure I was getting a low power one. Live 'n learn. I'll start looking for a non-vampire type 2.5" sata shell.

sebp
2009-11-24, 04:08
FWIW, I'm using this one (http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?pid=11104) with my Touch, and it works perfectly.

dave77
2009-11-24, 06:24
FWIW, I'm using this one (http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?pid=11104) with my Touch, and it works perfectly.

Is that one USB powered?

gellie
2009-11-24, 07:20
FWIW, I'm using this one (http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?pid=11104) with my Touch, and it works perfectly.

That one looks pretty nice. Btw i didnt know the touch was available?

andynormancx
2009-11-24, 07:25
That one looks pretty nice. Btw i didnt know the touch was available?
It isn't, apart from the beta testers and one lucky individual who accidentally got one shipped from a confused distributor.

gellie
2009-11-24, 07:35
If you're talking about a BIG disk (500gig or larger) and a BIG music collection, I'd go with NTFS, which uses the hard disk space much more efficiently than FAT32. In terms of copying your music files from your Mac to the usb connected NTFS drive, you can just "drag" the music to the new drive, but you have to jump through one hoop first. See: http://prasys.co.cc/2009/09/how-to-enable-native-readwrite-ntfs-for-snow-leopard/ and http://smokingapples.com/software/tips/snow-leopards-hidden-ntfs-readwrite-support/ to see what's involved in this 'hoop'.

Here is a GUI utility that I haven't personally tired, but it should make jumping through this particular hoop pretty painless: http://ntfsmounter.com/

PS: This is snow-leopard only. With leopard and older versions of OS X, you'll need to install mac-fuse and mac-ntfs-3g...both free, but both a little more bother to set up than the method cited above.

Thank you. Yes using leopard. My music collection is 150gb will it be easier to use a FAT32 drive.In tearms of trasfering my files?

troy_cumberbatch@logitech.com
2009-11-25, 11:08
On Nov 12, 2009, at 5:57 PM, rotho wrote:

>
> The USB compatibility page
> (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/USB_Compatibility) has been
> changed :
>> The following devices have been tested with Squeezebox Touch (Fab4):
>>
>> Supported formats are:
>>
>> 1. FAT16
>> 2. FAT32
>> 3. NTFS
>> 4. ext2/3
>
> So, now there seems to be full support for NTFS (was read-only before),
> and ext2/3, but where has HFS+ gone ?

There is no good HFS driver for Linux. But I guess you guys need something else to whine about right? ;)

--------------------------------->

The WD5000MLC-00 My Passport Elite does not work for me, It's formated in NTFS, I have all my music in a MUSIC folder on the drive. But when I connect the drive it registers in the USB > Devices section. But when I try to switch Libraries it does not show up. What Am I doing wrong, what is the correct process for hooking up a NTFS USB drive?

troy_cumberbatch@logitech.com
2009-11-25, 11:14
My Western Dgital WD5000MLC-00 My Passport Elite, formated in NTFS does not work as claimed. What is the proper procedure for connecting and accessing a NTFS USB drive to touch. Could anyone provide a step by step procedure? Please note I've updated to 7.5

andyg
2009-11-25, 11:27
Can you post more info, like the relevant output of /var/log/messages when you attach the drive?

sebp
2009-11-25, 12:21
Is that one USB powered?
Yes.

troy_cumberbatch@logitech.com
2009-11-25, 16:00
Can you post more info, like the relevant output of /var/log/messages when you attach the drive?

So the message I see when I got the USB ==> Device Menu is USB Drive Name: None, Size 470G, Free Space 450G. As mentioned It is formated in NTFS, and the Music is in dedicated Music Folder.The strange thing is the drive has a name "Music Land" but it does not show up in drive name. Can you provide a set up procedure, what settings are needed etc...

thomasfoerster
2009-11-26, 10:59
@troy_cumberbatch:
The new WD drives use some strange CD emulation.
When you plug your drive into a windows PC, how many drive letters appear in your explorer?
If the answer is two, you suffer from that 'feature'.
But WD provides a firmware update which allows to switch it off.

It cost me hours to figure that out.. I couldn't mount the drives on Ubuntu.

bundee1
2009-11-30, 05:24
think that particular wd drive comes with preinstalled software that can only be gotten rid of with a firmware update. This might be causing your problem.