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Goodsounds
2009-10-02, 14:49
The company is releasing new hardware and software and making lots of changes. Without addressing whether that has or hasn't been well managed lately, I don't get why so many people think it's ok to have a hissy fit to display their unhappiness.

Do any of you work with customers? If so, you realize it is the ones who are polite and considerate that people make an extra effort for. You just want to blow off steam? This isn't the right place to do that. The company's employees are working hard to get things right, it isn't reasonable to be unfairly critical or impolite to them.

Maybe a new forum is needed - for comments from teenagers with out of balance hormones, and older people who act in a similar way.

If you want help or want to report a problem, why not do so politely? Are you unhappy and you want people to know about it? Fine, but why not be a bit more considerate of others when you express your views.

Just to get things off on a better footing, I'll say to the company's people - Way to go, a lot of us really appreciate what you do.

Slackerini
2009-10-02, 15:35
While I agree that the excessive whinging and getting into name calling is silly, people have a right to be upset and unhappy.

I work with customers everyday and also have the pleasure of dealing with less-than-pleasant customers when my work isn't up to snuff. That is life.

However, It seems to me that the software was clearly rushed out the door to hit a corporate deadline. That said, I too appreciate everyone--slim employees and the developers on this forum--for all their contributions in sorting out the bugs.

I've been a Slim customer for 4-years and my system has been running 24/7 until now. I made the mistake of rushing to upgrade--something I haven't historically done and am suffering the consequences. I can't even seem to find the recommended system requirement for 7.4 to check if part of my problem is that my server is underpowered.

I think part of the struggle that Slim->Logitech is going through is that their target market has gone from a very tech-saavy, DYI/hobbyist community that was tolerant of hiccups in the development process and willing to spend hours tinkering with the product/software, to a broader consumer-oriented product that customers expect to work out of the box, without hours of tinkering or learning how to write code or posting logfiles.

pablolie
2009-10-02, 15:44
I for one have not made a single rude comment. If openly stating that there are major issues is ¨rude¨ in the eyes of the unconditional SB groupies, hey, I can live with that. My sig shows my support for SB products with the one thing that matters most - my checkbook. 3 Booms, 1 Duet, 3 SB3s and a Radio on order, possibly a Touch. I am not a bad customer.

But I speak up when things don´t work out that well, and furthermore think it is my obligation to a common cause: to make this a better product for us, and adopted by many more.

regalma1
2009-10-02, 16:05
I work in product development and have done customer support. Our products are far more complex and we reach far further with each new model, but we can't bring out stuff full of obvious bugs as 7.4 appears to be. Here they have even changed their hardware and their new FW is causing all sorts crashes. I mean how can you produce FW for a very mature piece of hardware that doesn't even do that much and not catch things cause even routine operations to fail. Looks like they don't have a formal SW QA process.

Maybe the difference is that they are selling to the public, while we sell to professionals. And frankly, since the invention of the personal computer we consumers have come expect things not to work, and to get lousy support.

The computer industry exploits that to the max. I have never dealt with an industry that has such lame support and ships such obviously flawed products, well except maybe GM in the '70's. But look where that led.

arztde
2009-10-02, 17:13
Just to stop it. A good solution can be reactivate the old squeezenetwork and stop the automatic firmwareupdate to 7.4. Let the customors of Logitech decide, when they like to change to 7.4. A lot have stable running systems.

Just my 2 cents.

iPhone
2009-10-02, 18:56
I think a few people are not thinking before they leap.

One does not HAVE to upgrade to SBS 7.4, unless one buys a Radio. SBS 7.4 IS REQUIRED for Radio.

Having said that, SBS 7.4 HAD to be released as production or Radios could not be released and sold. The change is then due to Radio, so if one doesn't have one don't upgrade unless one wants to take advantage of the Controller updates that are included in SBS 7.4 also.

And I will end with I personally haven't had any issues upgrading to SBS 7.4 but that doesn't mean that others might have to make an adjustment or two. I have been using the Beta for what seems like forever, the changes seem more subtle to me.

arztde
2009-10-03, 00:46
I think a few people are not thinking before they leap.

One does not HAVE to upgrade to SBS 7.4, unless one buys a Radio. SBS 7.4 IS REQUIRED for Radio.



Why this is not been told in the announcements very clear in any languages in a understandable way. Its not a shame to have not english as mother language.

If i look through the resources the SB3 is no more listed inside the FAQ section of the Logitech resourses. I could browse them from the old Squeezecenter Help link directly.

Anyways after i did have damaged my SB3 (3month old) i packed it to send to logitech for repair. The display stay black. 7.3 is working very stable. nothing to concern. Also no problem with the Controler of my Duet. With 7.4 Logitech go the risk to loose a lot of reputation. If they force in this way the 7.4. With the Duet it happen the same this reputation lost in past. No this?
In regular i use the hardware together with PDA Slimcontrol.
The Duet controler is only more for me just for testing. I think for the moment to force 7.4 as major release and stable is not the best way. Christmass is time enough to make it ready to be stable.
Is it realy necessary to make 90 % of happy customers NOW to beta testers for the SB Radio. My idea was to buy one at christmass to put it inside a stable solution without major bugs. There is no need to make me as a beta tester until christmass. The best way to demonstrate somehow stability is to force the developement of the software players. It was allways my argument in front of friends to decide to buy the hardware after intensive testing with the software players.
The way is than to buy one SB Modell and use intermediate the software player as intermediate solution for Multiroom until they buy the next SB Modell.

bluegaspode
2009-10-03, 02:07
One does not HAVE to upgrade to SBS 7.4, unless one buys a Radio. SBS 7.4 IS REQUIRED for Radio.

While this might be true in a technical sense it is not true in the common world. I guess people that have a setup which allows running on 7.3. maybe even didn't realize (apart from the later logitech-mail) that there was a 7.4.

All other people that come here (some properly complaining and also many using the wrong words) were 'forced' to an update.
- their controller asked them to do so and if they didn't it asked them later again and they didn't know why
- their boom just upgraded automatically when they surfed to a certain menu
- ...

I don't want to start a discussion now what 'forced' means, but my interpretation goes like 'as a normal user who doesn't surf the forums all the time I had no real chance to opt out when my devices started to develop their own lives. I didn't even know the correct answer, when the controller surprised me with a question I didn't understand out of the blue'.

I hope that logitech will take the chance to make a retrospective of the current update and will analyse what could be done better (and I'm sure they will - noone wants unhappy customers).
Maybe they are even satisfied ... I mean - in their statistics they see exactly how many people upgraded - say >10.000 and how many people turn up in support and forums (say 100). This would be 'just' 1% problematic cases ?
Of course I don't know the real numbers, but at what number would we speak of a successfull update (given that 0% is not realistic).

Having said this I want to agree to the first poster. Taking the wrong language doesn't really help in the current situation.
Logitech for sure won't take back the changes (why should they?) because this would make even more trouble. The system wasn't designed to support old and new squeezenetwork in parallel so this currently is just not an option.

toby10
2009-10-03, 04:22
All good comments, IMHO.

I think the problem is compounded by attempting three different issues at the same time:
- upgrading SN to MySB
- upgrading SC7.3 to SBS7.4
- new product introduction of the Radio (requiring the first two)

In a perfect world these should have been done in steps, spreading out the three step integration over (say) 30 days between each step. But then I and most of the SB player users are not programmers so we'll never understand the reasons why this couldn't be done in such a three step manner. Then add in the corporate big cheeses standing over them with a baseball bat! :)

Obviously MySB.com and SBS7.4 work with legacy hardware, and SC7.3 works with MySB, all with some hicups of course. So then the question is "why not a three step integration?". I'd guess it was either planned as a all-at-once process (not my choice as an amateur looking in from outside), or the multi-step approach plan got trampled on due to problems and deadlines. Who knows.

Mnyb
2009-10-03, 04:36
Have not anyone thought that the obvious leaks regarding the new products have rushed the schedule ?

pablolie
2009-10-03, 09:55
Just to stop it. A good solution can be reactivate the old squeezenetwork and stop the automatic firmwareupdate to 7.4. Let the customors of Logitech decide, when they like to change to 7.4. A lot have stable running systems.

Just my 2 cents.

I 200% agree. Support old revision for a while. Only force upgrades to utterly stable and tested and proven releases.

pablolie
2009-10-03, 10:04
.. in their statistics they see exactly how many people upgraded - say >10.000 and how many people turn up in support and forums (say 100). This would be 'just' 1% problematic cases ?...

That would not include the people who don't know what to do about all this, put their product in a box in their garage and regard it as a failed experiment.

I think it's only the more sophisticated users that get to this forum. The next group would try to use phone support. The largest group will just toss a gadget that doesn't work the way they expect.

sg2
2009-10-03, 10:28
"Why so many rude comments?"

Believe it or not, after going through unimaginable hassle to get it running, every and each single update that came later broke my Duet setup.

I will be staying away from 7.4, judging by the feedback. I can live with the 7.3 bugs, even though I'd rather not.

Regards,
--
Stéphane

DotSystem
2009-10-03, 11:39
I 200% agree. Support old revision for a while. Only force upgrades to utterly stable and tested and proven releases.

By 'support' I hope you mean applying fixes (maintenance releases) to 7.3 for previously identified unresolved problems such as ghost alarms (Boom) and out-of-sync playlist artwork (Duet).

kappclark
2009-10-03, 12:34
I am THRILLED with this technology, and have seen no plms since the magic upgrade (which appeared automatically on the duet controller)...just can't wait for the readynas connection to come out of Beta..

For now, Internet radio is an entirely new experience, and this has been worth every penny !

I have nothing to complain about (and I haven't played a cd at home in weeks !)

radish
2009-10-03, 21:34
All other people that come here (some properly complaining and also many using the wrong words) were 'forced' to an update.
- their controller asked them to do so and if they didn't it asked them later again and they didn't know why
- their boom just upgraded automatically when they surfed to a certain menu
- ...


That only happens if you use SN. I'm still running 7.3.3 on my main system (and 7.4 on the test server) and none of my controllers (or Booms) have asked for an update. They would if I switched to SN, but I don't (as I don't need to). The reality is you do have to upgrade SC to 7.4 if you're using a Radio, and it makes sense to if you regularly switch between SC and SN (as otherwise you'll be upping and downing the fw all day). So yes there are people who will have been prompted for an update, and I assume the majority of them are fine (as I've been running 7.4 fine in test for ages), but it does suck when you're one of the unlucky ones. It's certainly not everyone though.

Speaking as a 7.4 tester, stuff obviously got through the cracks, we'll try better next time :)

pablolie
2009-10-03, 23:24
By 'support' I hope you mean applying fixes (maintenance releases) ...

Actually, just leaving it active and making it a choice for a while would suffice as far as I am concerned. I guess going forward that means no longer using mySB.com if that is what I really want...

iPhone
2009-10-04, 00:10
"Why so many rude comments?"

Believe it or not, after going through unimaginable hassle to get it running, every and each single update that came later broke my Duet setup.

I will be staying away from 7.4, judging by the feedback. I can live with the 7.3 bugs, even though I'd rather not.

Regards,
--
Stéphane

That's just it. If ones setup is simple and one can handle a new download of SBS then answer yes to update now on ones Controller, I think one is much better off with SBS 7.4. And if its not ones cup of tea, roll back to SC 7.3.3.

I can guarantee for every one person that posts they have an issue or problem with SBS 7.4 that there are hundreds if not thousands that don't have ANY problems and don't post. Negative comments are immediate on the Forum while praise, neutral, and no problems comments tend to lag big time. As in, not problems here so nothing to report or worth reporting.

kmr
2009-10-04, 12:35
I have a simple system: SB3 (SD branded), iMac running MacOS 10.5.x. Absolutely smooth, including mySB integration. I really like the new preference pane for the server. I feel for the folks that have had problems, but I strongly suspect they are a small minority (recognizing though that it's still a problem).

tedfroop
2009-10-05, 07:19
There are probably thousands of us who had no problem with the update. As I see it most of the issues are already being dealt with by the developers.

There is one thing in all this that the software developers have no control over - your hardware, software, and your network. The whole PC-Apple thing is exactly the same as well. If we all ran Squeezebox Server on a set standard piece of hardware with a set standard OS with a set standard network there would be few problems.

We don't though and any problems with either the computer, os, or network exposed by the new software is a chance to complain. Anything that does not work the way I want it to - complain! Blunder ahead with a system that was not stable in the first place and make it more unstable with new software - complain!


Carefully make sure everything is working right, copy your preferences, uninstall (and restart if you have Windows) and install the update, make sure everything is ok and your plugins are all compatible and updated, move your prefs over, check it all again and everything works and then you don't need to complain.

Then you can ignore the rude people until they figure out thats not the way to get help around here.

ghostrider
2009-10-05, 09:35
There are probably thousands of us who had no problem with the update. As I see it most of the issues are already being dealt with by the developers.

There is one thing in all this that the software developers have no control over - your hardware, software, and your network. The whole PC-Apple thing is exactly the same as well. If we all ran Squeezebox Server on a set standard piece of hardware with a set standard OS with a set standard network there would be few problems.

We don't though and any problems with either the computer, os, or network exposed by the new software is a chance to complain. Anything that does not work the way I want it to - complain! Blunder ahead with a system that was not stable in the first place and make it more unstable with new software - complain!


Carefully make sure everything is working right, copy your preferences, uninstall (and restart if you have Windows) and install the update, make sure everything is ok and your plugins are all compatible and updated, move your prefs over, check it all again and everything works and then you don't need to complain.

Then you can ignore the rude people until they figure out thats not the way to get help around here.

Well stated! ;)

Howard Passman
2009-10-06, 03:36
I can guarantee for every one person that posts they have an issue or problem with SBS 7.4 that there are hundreds if not thousands that don't have ANY problems and don't post.

I disagree with the above. Maybe hundreds...maybe. Thousands, I really doubt. I have a great respect for your knowlege and abilities, but I don't know how much connection you have with the public in any type of customer service rendering. And by public, I mean the non-technical public. I work for a small company with about 200 PC users. Some have been using PC's longer than I have. Out of the 200 I would hazard a guess that maybe 3 of them might be able to use an SB product. Even the techinical folks around here can't deal with computers and home networks. An iPod is about as far as they can get by themselves(hint to Logitech).

I tend to agree with the poster that said many of these end up in the garage as failed experiments. Obviously, it would be very hard to see how many purchasers are still using their SB's, but it might be very interesting. I know that my first SB, the DUET, came very close to ending up in the trash. I'm glad it didn't, but I really doubt almost anyone else I know would have kept it.

If Logitech really wants this thing to get big they need to think 'toaster' or as close as they can get to that type of deivce.

Most folks don't need the additional frustration in their lives and it shows in the way they express themselves in their posts.


The above is only my opinion and therefor won't even buy you a cup of coffee.

Howard

mherger
2009-10-06, 03:50
> If Logitech really wants this thing to get big they need to think
> 'toaster' or as close as they can get to that type of deivce.

What customers seem to forget is that they don't want a toaster. It's not a standalone device like a toaster or even an iPod. It's a networking device. But with the ease of a toaster? Some users really want the online music, even Facebook and Flickr integration. That's our biggest challenge: Hide the huge complexity the user wants from the user.

Howard Passman
2009-10-06, 04:01
> If Logitech really wants this thing to get big they need to think
> 'toaster' or as close as they can get to that type of deivce.

What customers seem to forget is that they don't want a toaster. It's not a standalone device like a toaster or even an iPod. It's a networking device. But with the ease of a toaster? Some users really want the online music, even Facebook and Flickr integration. That's our biggest challenge: Hide the huge complexity the user wants from the user.

...and this isn't aimed at you, Michael. What posters need to understand is that you can't have it both ways. It can't be everyting to everyone and not be overly complicated and reliable. No one has ever achieved that with any product. You can't flame folks for thinking that it should be easy to use because the advertising leads one to believe that. When those consumers get frustrated and vent, some folks take them to task for not understanding it *isn't* a toaster.

Howard

arztde
2009-10-06, 04:49
...You can't flame folks for thinking that it should be easy to use because the advertising leads one to believe that. When those consumers get frustrated and vent, some folks take them to task for not understanding it *isn't* a toaster.

Howard

I am not so unexperienced and did not have much problems before this release.
I think also that more like to see the Squeeze to be connect with a multimediaplayer. If logitech announce now official a cooperation with a producer or announce this release is the first step to do it by theirself be shure the rumors suddenly get quiet.
Because mediaplayers have their biggest problem to play reasonable music.
i am shure after such an announcement noone look to facebook or something because it is less important for the most of them.
And also the most users in such a case have no problem with a releaselike 7.40 if there is such a direction...

pippin
2009-10-06, 05:19
Because mediaplayers have their biggest problem to play reasonable music.
i am shure after such an announcement noone look to facebook or something because it is less important for the most of them.


I think _this_ would be a really, really, bad idea.
The problem with (multi)media players is that the use cases for audio and video are so different. Whenever you try to combine it you will end up with a product that sucks for one feature (usually audio) or even both.

We are talking complex UI here? THAT would give you one hell of a UI issue.

Just my 2cts.

mherger
2009-10-06, 05:46
> The problem with (multi)media players is that the use cases for audio
> and video are so different. Whenever you try to combine it you will end
> up with a product that sucks for one feature (usually audio) or even
> both.

That's what you've seen so far. Someone has to be the first to do it right :-)

arztde
2009-10-06, 05:49
I think _this_ would be a really, really, bad idea.
The problem with (multi)media players is that the use cases for audio and video are so different. Whenever you try to combine it you will end up with a product that sucks for one feature (usually audio) or even both.

We are talking complex UI here? THAT would give you one hell of a UI issue.

Just my 2cts.

I disagree to you Pippin. And i am shure. .-)
It depends only about the internal structure of the User Interface.
I promise you the next steps are players inside the remote control. Logitech have it inside the Controller and Ipeng will have it soon to this inside player. Locuth did made a first announcement somehow for SlimControl in October this year.
Next step will be maybee beginning next year to integrate a player inside a mediaplayer that is able to use the Squeezeserver.
Maybee they use just a Slimserver like its now inside the touch.

Was for me the only reason to think about a touch because for my personal needs the SB3 is the better way with the display.

If Logi starts not someone else will start.

mzpro5
2009-10-06, 05:57
> Some users really want the online music, even Facebook and Flickr integration. That's our biggest challenge: Hide the huge complexity the user wants from the user.

With the greatest respect I must ask who wants Facebook or Flicker (I have no idea what flicker is)on a SB? I think this is a case of the tail wagging the dog. Logitech is trying to increase customer base pure and simple. Nothing wrong with that but I doubt that there are more than 5% of SB owners that were waiting for Facebook on their music player. I'll admit I don't come to the forums every day but I've never heard anyone ask for Facebook. It certainly has no use on my SB3.

pippin
2009-10-06, 06:34
That's what you've seen so far. Someone has to be the first to do it right :-)

There is no "right". "Convergence" is a myth, a technical myth. In the end. it's not technical platforms that sell systems but user needs.


I disagree to you Pippin. And i am shure. .-)
It depends only about the internal structure of the User Interface.

No, internal structure is useless technobabble.
I listen to music while I'm sitting on my desk, while I'm in my bath, I'm in the kitchen, while I'm dining, while I'm in bed.
I listen to the same music over and over again.

I watch TV in the evening when I want to cease thinking and I watch a Video when I want to be entertained. Both are things I only do in front of a TV and I rarely watch the same program even twice.

These use cases are so fundamentally different that they will never demand the same UI or integration into the same "system".



I promise you the next steps are players inside the remote control.

What does this have to do with video or media integration?
My remote control is an iPod touch, which is a player IN THE FIRST PLACE or a Controller which has had this for a long while. So what?



If Logi starts not someone else will start.
Dozens of companies have already "started" this, they all failed an so will all that follow.
Including Logitech if the are foolish enough to go that route.

My list of things that will never be successful, I offer bets about beer on this:

- "Multimedia" Players that replace your audio equipment; you will see audio features in Media Players (obviously) but they will be a pain to use and pwople will have other solutions along with them.
- Internet on TV - TV manufacturers might include this but people will not use it.
- DRMed Music (ok, this is an old one, but I feel it's one I won).
- Internet in the car. I explicitly exclude offboard navigation and audio/video streaming. But people will never really use a built-in car device to browse the internet or do their e-mail.

I will add to the list by time...

Don't get me wrong, there will always be a few people doing this, there's even a number of DAB users out there, but it will never gain mass market acceptance.

mherger
2009-10-06, 06:45
> There is no "right". "Convergence" is a myth, a technical myth. In the

Well, I guess you'd agree that an iPod Touch is proving to be a usable web client. Some years back you'd have said that a device that small can't be a good browser platform, right?

aubuti
2009-10-06, 06:47
My list of things that will never be successful, I offer bets about beer on this:

- "Multimedia" Players that replace your audio equipment; you will see audio features in Media Players (obviously) but they will be a pain to use and pwople will have other solutions along with them.
- Internet on TV - TV manufacturers might include this but people will not use it.
- DRMed Music (ok, this is an old one, but I feel it's one I won).
- Internet in the car. I explicitly exclude offboard navigation and audio/video streaming. But people will never really use a built-in car device to browse the internet or do their e-mail.

I will add to the list by time...

Don't get me wrong, there will always be a few people doing this, there's even a number of DAB users out there, but it will never gain mass market acceptance.
Don't forget:
- audio streaming that uses the tv as the interface. Sure, there are some people who do this and actually like it, but its days are numbered as more and more options like touchscreens and LCD remotes take over.

arztde
2009-10-06, 07:56
@pippin i just say i disagree and one will be the first one... ;-) :-)

First to say i have a PCH A110 and my Xtreamer have Sebastian. I have 2 Multimediaplayers but not a TV. Surprizing?

But to use an old LCD Monitor for streaming Pictures to the wall is a nice idea.

And to change the topic a little bit in the direction of this future hope will settle the heating down.

Maybee this 7.4 is the small step of logitech to go exact in this direction. For this hope as it is official will be keep the concerns to silence into a way of patience...

pippin
2009-10-06, 08:22
> There is no "right". "Convergence" is a myth, a technical myth. In the

Well, I guess you'd agree that an iPod Touch is proving to be a usable web client. Some years back you'd have said that a device that small can't be a good browser platform, right?

Of course I would. I've used smartphones for 10 years now (staring with the Ericsson R380) and the very mioment the iPhone came out I wanted one without the phone for mobile browsing. I always said: forget about the phone, I just want the "i"... I still believe the iPhone is not a particularly good PHONE.

YBut you know what: my iPhone doesn't have a single song on it, yet, for listening I still use the old Nano and OK, sometimes the iTouch.

But video: No way.
I tried the Elgato App. It streams TV from my Mac to the iTouch and works almost perfectly. Still, the screen is too small for _that_ and I don't want to use headphones to watch TV or video.


Don't forget:
- audio streaming that uses the tv as the interface. Sure, there are some people who do this and actually like it, but its days are numbered as more and more options like touchscreens and LCD remotes take over.

Oh yes. And big Touch-Screen controllers on the wall!


@pippin i just say i disagree and one will be the first one... ;-) :-)


My bet stands, how much can I write down for you?

andynormancx
2009-10-06, 08:31
Of course I would. I've used smartphones for 10 years now (staring with the Ericsson R380) and the very mioment the iPhone came out I wanted one without the phone for mobile browsing. I always said: forget about the phone, I just want the "i"... I still believe the iPhone is not a particularly good PHONE.

YBut you know what: my iPhone doesn't have a single song on it, yet, for listening I still use the old Nano and OK, sometimes the iTouch.

Ok, so the iPhone might not be an example of convergence for you, but for many other people it is a perfect example.

I used to carry a phone, a PDA, an MP3 player, a radio and a GPS navigation device.

Now I just carry my iPhone. Not only has it replaced 5 devices for me, but it also fills in for my laptop. I now don't often take my laptop with me unless I know I need to do some development, for email and web browsing away from my desk my iPhone is all I need most of the time.

The iPhone might not be the best phone, music player, PDA, GPS device or radio. But it does a usable job of being all those devices in one, for me. It is good enough at all those tasks to make the compromises it bring more than bearable.

pippin
2009-10-06, 08:45
Agree. But it's still pretty similar use cases: Communication and doing computing stuff while on the move.

You won't write a book on it, use it to watch soccer (unless you have no alternative) or use it to listen to opera in your living room.

I don't believe that will not buy
- a computer
- a stereo
- a TV
- a Camera

because you do already own an iPhone.

Yet that's the claim for "convergence devices" and I say: not gonna happen.

toby10
2009-10-06, 08:48
AppleTV, PS3, Xbox, and others have been quite successful in the "multi-media" platform. But one of the most common reasons people do not choose these platforms for music is because they do not wish to run their 400 watt TV simply to select their next song. :)

There are other reasons to be sure (lacking Squeeze type flexibility, minimal codec support, poor audio outputs, etc..).

The swiss army knife approach to any multi-tasking always comes with drawbacks, particularly for audio & video. Better to concentrate in one area, do it well, and keep it separate. This is precisely where the SB products come in to play in relation to music, just as the mentioned PCH comes in to play for video. If you want the best and most flexible of both, buy the best for each separately. If you want the "all-in-one" solution, be prepared for mediocre results.....somewhere.

andynormancx
2009-10-06, 09:00
Yet that's the claim for "convergence devices" and I say: not gonna happen.
It sounds a bit like your definition for "convergence devices" is "things that haven't yet and aren't likely to converge" ;)

My definition includes things that could and already have converged.

pippin
2009-10-06, 09:09
It sounds a bit like your definition for "convergence devices" is "things that haven't yet and aren't likely to converge" ;)

My definition includes things that could and already have converged.

OK, I won't bet against YOU unless we could agree to adopt my definition...

I was specifically talking about convergence in home entertainment but agree that at least my "car" comment had nothing to do with _that_...

arztde
2009-10-06, 10:05
OK, I won't bet against YOU unless we could agree to adopt my definition...

I was specifically talking about convergence in home entertainment but agree that at least my "car" comment had nothing to do with _that_...

Was more in my direction i guess... because in another thread i was writing in missunderstanding the english topic, that i use it with SlimControl and UMTS in my car and let transfer the music via bluetooth into my car stereo.

After reviewing, i did delete the posting because it appear to others maybee for spam...

Anyways Pippin its time to cool down for all. The rumors or concerns are because with 7.4 Logitech in parts surprize a lot of users with a new direction, that they will not change, if its good or not.

I hope the bugfixing goes on fast and there is a major pressure for Logitech to do it better soon. So testing circle run more fast for them. Lot of dealers in local shops will not place the Touch. they will decide for the small radio. I did not see the Duet inside a local shop once. Allways the boom and the classic. And here the local dealers have arround 10 different internetradios of different producers ready for testing.

Goodsounds
2009-10-06, 11:02
> If Logitech really wants this thing to get big they need to think
> 'toaster' or as close as they can get to that type of deivce.

What customers seem to forget is that they don't want a toaster. It's not a standalone device like a toaster or even an iPod. It's a networking device. But with the ease of a toaster? Some users really want the online music, even Facebook and Flickr integration. That's our biggest challenge: Hide the huge complexity the user wants from the user.

Howard's views are insightful, and perspectives like his deserve more attention by the company.

The SB owners and potential owners I know don't want "huge complexity" as Michael says. In fact, the existing complexity is so off putting as to scare away customers, I've seen that myself with friends. Hiding it won't do much. I've experienced far more people being turned off than turned on by the products' technical features.

Let's strip out opinions and just look at the market. With most consumer products, the biggest sellers are mostly plug and play. Or, can be used that way. Even with complicated home theater systems that challenge most owners, buyers pay for someone else to do the setup and then they simply turn it off and on and change channels or program sources. People don't fiddle with or obsess about these things - they set them up and use them. Period. Like a toaster.

Let the programmers and geek types on these forums argue about how to stream music to their skateboards, or whether to move the couch two feet to the right to absorb a low frequency sound, or how to use their SB to see who's at the front door. It's laughable to me but it's harmless and who cares. But don't let these people continue to have a disproportionate influence on SB product direction and features as they've historically had. It had led to the wrong features and bad decisions.

By listening to the wrong voices, the company misses the mainstream market targets they should be aiming for. Positioning the products for non- technical people will lead to greater success. By selling musical toasters.

mherger
2009-10-06, 11:08
> The SB owners and potential owners I know don't want "huge complexity"
> as Michael says.

My using "complexity" probably was a bit confusing. Sure, nobody wants complexity. But the feature set you want can cause a great deal of complexity. If you don't know about this, then at least we partially succeeded :-). Using a networked device already carries along quite a bit of complexity compared to a FM radio.

Phil Leigh
2009-10-06, 11:12
The problem with toasters is that they are notoriously hard to upgrade...

Want more slots? - muffin or croisant warming? Buy a new toaster...

The fact is that the SB products are not intrinsically hard to setup or use - PROVIDED some basic rules are followed. Somewhat regretably, the desire to embrace every file and tag format, every hardware platform, every network topology etc has backfired to some extent - yes it has superb cross-platform capabilities, but at the cost of an increasingly complex codebase and development/testing cycle.

I believe that the Touch is the beginning of the end of the old model.
Maybe we can look forward to standard file types, tags etc. I know we will lose some features with this approach, but it does offer the promise of the ultimate toaster...

Howard Passman
2009-10-06, 11:27
The problem with toasters is that they are notoriously hard to upgrade...


Yep, they only have two purposes...making toast or taking a bath with it after the latest SB upgrade :-)(Do not attemp this. We are professional bathers in a closed tub...)

Most folks don't buy devices with the thought of doing much upgrading. Generally, a current feature set is attracting them to the product. They really aren't thinking ahead. A good example is a PC. You buy it for your forseeable needs. After you outgrow it you could upgrade it, but it really isn't pratical. To get the processor you want you need a new MOBO and memory. At that point you might as well just buy the new one anyway. Logitech is doing the same thing. Although the SB1 and SB2 still work, they can't be updated to do what even the boom will do. So you keep it around for a back up, give it to your little brother or bury it in a box in your attic. Not much different than a toaster.

Howard

Howard Passman
2009-10-06, 11:33
:-)

Phil Leigh
2009-10-06, 11:38
Yep, they only have two purposes...making toast or taking a bath with it after the latest SB upgrade :-)(Do not attemp this. We are professional bathers in a closed tub...)

Most folks don't buy devices with the thought of doing much upgrading. Generally, a current feature set is attracting them to the product. They really aren't thinking ahead. A good example is a PC. You buy it for your forseeable needs. After you outgrow it you could upgrade it, but it really isn't pratical. To get the processor you want you need a new MOBO and memory. At that point you might as well just buy the new one anyway. Logitech is doing the same thing. Although the SB1 and SB2 still work, they can't be updated to do what even the boom will do. So you keep it around for a back up, give it to your little brother or bury it in a box in your attic. Not much different than a toaster.

Howard

That's kind of my point - the SB is moving steadily away from a "roll your own" component architecture to a more integrated one (but retaining its open API's). I think this is a GOOD THING...now. Things have moved on in the last 7 years.

I think we are only 1 more generation away from seeing this become a reality.

If the Touch could run a web server...

pippin
2009-10-06, 11:56
Was more in my direction i guess... because in another thread i was writing in missunderstanding the english topic, that i use it with SlimControl and UMTS in my car and let transfer the music via bluetooth into my car stereo.


No. That's my own past experience trying to explain to car manufacturers that they will NOT become rich and famous by offering three branded "internet" services in their cars for only $100 a month but focus on just putting the stuff in cars people already want there and sell that at a healthy profit.

Market told them later and when it did they finally believed it.

I learned my part, too, though which also applies here:
"Not everything that is being done to a product is being done for customers!"

I BET there's a car being sold with facebook today, too. The last phone I bought (no, not an iPhone) had a BIG "works with facebook" sticker, too.
Who this is done for is investors. The idea is that people who crave to invest gazillions in a business that only creates losses and probably ever will but who can't get an entry there might be tempted to route some of their funds into the stock of some other company that at least prints the label on their boxes.

And hey, after all that makes sense!

WustrowO
2009-10-06, 12:10
IMHO the reason for the current problems lies in the attempt to integrate all kinds of players into one mysqueezebox platform. The features are much too diverse for a successful integration. There should be at least two platforms, one for audio-only players and another one for the new players with advanced display capabilities like the Touch. Logitech should have kept Squeezenetwork for audio-only players and build mysqueezebox for the new ones.

toby10
2009-10-06, 12:54
IMHO the reason for the current problems lies in the attempt to integrate all kinds of players into one mysqueezebox platform. The features are much too diverse for a successful integration. There should be at least two platforms, one for audio-only players and another one for the new players with advanced display capabilities like the Touch. Logitech should have kept Squeezenetwork for audio-only players and build mysqueezebox for the new ones.

But then, going forward, people with both types will say:
- "it's too confusing to have two different online server types for my two different players?"
- "why can't my favorites on MySB sync with SN?"
- "why have Napster in My Apps over here, but have it in Music Services over there?"

Which puts us right back where we are today.

You can't please everyone. :(

WustrowO
2009-10-06, 13:01
That's probably right. But I guess most of the "normal" people have just one player.

Another solution could have been to focus on the new models and mysqueezebox for some time and migrate Squeezenetwork after a consolidation period. There are only a few Touch/Radio users yet - but many users with legacy boxes and a bunch of problems now...

MrSinatra
2009-10-06, 13:04
people should be able to express their frustrations, and do so in a way that isn't rude, altho rude is rather subjective.

having said that i generally like the direction logitech is taking everything, and i do think one day it will be tivo-ish simple to use for most folks.

what i do wish however, is that they would stop rollout of new clients for a [good long] while. what they should do is consider making a SBS piece of hardware, (which would really be helpful for providing a SBS testing baseline/benchmark), and regardless of if they do that or not, concentrate on killing off all the bugs in bugzilla.

i track many bugs in bugzilla and to me, its just ridiculous which ones get attention and which ones don't, even after years and years. the new client rollout for instance has delayed the "new schema" work which when finished will quash (hopefully) a HUGE number of bugs.

a lot of the bugs speak to basic functionality, which is implied to be working by the UI, but which isn't. enough new clients, get back to the basics and fundamentals and work on registered bugs.

aubuti
2009-10-06, 13:08
There should be at least two platforms, one for audio-only players and another one for the new players with advanced display capabilities like the Touch. Logitech should have kept Squeezenetwork for audio-only players and build mysqueezebox for the new ones.
And where would that leave the SB Controller, which is a SqueezeOS device with an LCD screen just like the SB Radio and SB Touch, even though it is "old"?

pippin
2009-10-06, 13:12
IMHO most of the issues stem from three areas:
- Teething problems because this was such a big change and you have to release it _some_ time. You can do beta programs as long as you like, you never find all the issues. These will be sorted out.
- Changing a few paradigms which confuses users who are experienced in the old way of doing things. This will go away, too.
- Some things are simply not yet fully there. E.g. SBS/MySB autoswitching. This will eventually come, I believe but it's too huge an effort to stem with one release.

When I first saw the "Apps" scheme during the beta phase (as well as about everybody else) I though: heck, what a confusion is this?

NOW, having used it for a few weeks I believe it's actually a very promising approach and I hope they integrate more stuff into this, e.g. Extras.

The same holds true for Touch-To-Play I believe although I have to admit that I have always been promoting this (as iPeng users know :) Some of them against their own will) so my experience here probably doesn't count.

pippin
2009-10-06, 13:19
i track many bugs in bugzilla and to me, its just ridiculous which ones get attention and which ones don't, even after years and years. the new client rollout for instance has delayed the "new schema" work which when finished will quash (hopefully) a HUGE number of bugs.


This company has to make some money, so bringing out new products is first priority.
I believe "New Schema" is too big a change to fit in there.
I only believe that this will come at all when I see the first beta that has it.

MrSinatra
2009-10-06, 13:28
well, they have done so. there are enough clients at this point. (altho i personally think the "radio" is one stupid product, and transporter ridiculously overpriced)

regardless of if radio and touch were or will be money makers, (or were in fact "needed") i think the current lineup now is enough to make them money and serve any home audio need. ergo at this point they need to work on the backend of the deal, which i realize has been worked on, 7.4 looks to be a big improvement, but it needs more, again, judging by bugzilla.

i hope your pessimism regarding new schema isn't true, b/c if it is that means a whole lot of bugs, including som rather bsic ones, are simply not going to be addressed at all, ever.

DotSystem
2009-10-06, 13:43
people should be able to express their frustrations, and do so in a way that isn't rude, altho rude is rather subjective.

having said that i generally like the direction logitech is taking everything, and i do think one day it will be tivo-ish simple to use for most folks.

what i do wish however, is that they would stop rollout of new clients for a [good long] while. what they should do is consider making a SBS piece of hardware, (which would really be helpful for providing a SBS testing baseline/benchmark), and regardless of if they do that or not, concentrate on killing off all the bugs in bugzilla.

i track many bugs in bugzilla and to me, its just ridiculous which ones get attention and which ones don't, even after years and years. the new client rollout for instance has delayed the "new schema" work which when finished will quash (hopefully) a HUGE number of bugs.

a lot of the bugs speak to basic functionality, which is implied to be working by the UI, but which isn't. enough new clients, get back to the basics and fundamentals and work on registered bugs.

Well stated.

WustrowO
2009-10-06, 13:56
And where would that leave the SB Controller, which is a SqueezeOS device with an LCD screen just like the SB Radio and SB Touch, even though it is "old"?

MySqueezeboxcontroller.com? :D

Seriously, the controller worked with Squeezenetwork.com, didn't it? ;)

aubuti
2009-10-06, 14:10
MySqueezeboxcontroller.com? :D

Seriously, the controller worked with Squeezenetwork.com, didn't it? ;)
Correct, but the "old" devices work fine with MySqueezebox.com. At first I didn't understand your suggestion to have two parallel services running (SN and MySB), as that seems incredibly unwieldy and would generate more confusion than it resolves. But now I really don't understand it because there doesn't seem to be any logic to which devices you would point where.

kmr
2009-10-06, 20:36
(altho i personally think the "radio" is one stupid product, and transporter ridiculously overpriced)



I can't fathom your lack of love for the SB Radio. What's not to like? Compact, tote-able package; the forthcoming battery pack for true mobility; great sound (according to the beta testers - I haven't heard it yet); the color display; and an extremely affordable price. The only knock I've heard on it is the lack of stereo, and that shouldn't be much of a problem in that small a package - mono output is fine. Actually, I'll rephrase my question at the top: what's not to LOVE? I predict the Radio will be a big hit, and almost certainly will be the product that moves me to a multi-Squeezebox household in the near future.

The Transporter, on the other hand, is an extremely niche product. I have no idea how much the markup on it is, but it's probably a lot. But if it were priced a lot less expensively, it would not appeal to a significant segment of the "audiophile" market because they would refuse to believe that it was any good at that price. (An aside: when did the woo-woo fringe take over audiophile country? Back in the '70s and '80s, in the glory days of Stereo Review magazine featuring the hardnosed engineer Julian Hirsch as their equipment maven, there was an emphasis on scientific method: what differences can be reliably distinguished in listening tests? how do those differences correlate to measurable characteristics of equipment? how do we test to minimize listener bias? Etc.; for example, Hirsch was one of the first to debunk the myths of gourmet speaker cables. You could go into your local hi-fi store and assemble a decent system, with components from good manufacturers, for a decent price. Nowadays, the middle-priced high-quality stereo equipment market seems to have gone the way of the dodo, and most of the information out there - certainly the magazines - seem to be written by woo-woo charlatans.)

MrSinatra
2009-10-06, 22:28
I can't fathom your lack of love for the SB Radio. What's not to like? Compact, tote-able package; the forthcoming battery pack for true mobility; great sound (according to the beta testers - I haven't heard it yet); the color display; and an extremely affordable price. The only knock I've heard on it is the lack of stereo, and that shouldn't be much of a problem in that small a package - mono output is fine. Actually, I'll rephrase my question at the top: what's not to LOVE? I predict the Radio will be a big hit, and almost certainly will be the product that moves me to a multi-Squeezebox household in the near future.

the controller [sbc] is smaller, stereo, and more portable.

i just don't get a "talk radio" only SB. i really don't.


The Transporter, on the other hand, is an extremely niche product. I have no idea how much the markup on it is, but it's probably a lot. But if it were priced a lot less expensively, it would not appeal to a significant segment of the "audiophile" market because they would refuse to believe that it was any good at that price. (An aside: when did the woo-woo fringe take over audiophile country? Back in the '70s and '80s, in the glory days of Stereo Review magazine featuring the hardnosed engineer Julian Hirsch as their equipment maven, there was an emphasis on scientific method: what differences can be reliably distinguished in listening tests? how do those differences correlate to measurable characteristics of equipment? how do we test to minimize listener bias? Etc.; for example, Hirsch was one of the first to debunk the myths of gourmet speaker cables. You could go into your local hi-fi store and assemble a decent system, with components from good manufacturers, for a decent price. Nowadays, the middle-priced high-quality stereo equipment market seems to have gone the way of the dodo, and most of the information out there - certainly the magazines - seem to be written by woo-woo charlatans.)

the TP is simply NOT worth it. if it had SC [sbs] onboard with say linux / webui and usb options etc, then maybe. it SHOULD have been standalone capable, but as a "highend SB" it is to me, a gross waste of money. julian hirsch would surely agree, as i doubt ANYONE could reliably tell the difference between a SB2 and a TP in a double blind listening test.

toby10
2009-10-07, 03:26
the controller [sbc] is smaller, stereo, and more portable.

i just don't get a "talk radio" only SB. i really don't......

Controller is smaller, if you want to use headphones.

I'm guessing a big part of the Radio concept is to introduce SB players to a wider audience utilizing a more basic and familiar form factor. Then, once bitten, the Radio customer is much more inclined to look at other SB players.

But, I do see your point about the SB Radio, particularly at it's MSRP price point. Even being a big fan of SB players I would have given a pass to a battery operated mono player at $249. I first assumed the entire package would be around $149.

Of course I say I would not have been interested in such a player having not had a battery on my Beta Radio. Ask me again once we get battery units and I may feel quite different. :)

morris_minor
2009-10-07, 05:27
i just don't get a "talk radio" only SB. i really don't.

Are you saying you can't use the Radio for playing your own music collection? Or music radio?




the TP is simply NOT worth it ..... as i doubt ANYONE could reliably tell the difference between a SB2 and a TP in a double blind listening test.

Have you tried :)

aubuti
2009-10-07, 06:32
i just don't get a "talk radio" only SB. i really don't.
Why do you think it's "talk radio only"? Because it's mono? The audio quality is actually very good, with enough oomph to fill a normal sized room at comfortable listening levels. I think it compares nicely to the popular Tivoli table radios, not to mention those Bose table radios that you see around a lot, which are at a higher price point. It's not for critical listening, and I don't expect to see them going in many living rooms. But kitchens, offices, nightstands, patios -- sure.

MrSinatra
2009-10-07, 09:28
stereo = suitable for music or talk
mono = suitable for talk, not preferable for music

if anyone were to buy this thing to listen to music, i'd think they should have their head examined, (or at least their hearing). even a mono music source doesn't get justice on a tiny thing like this. i mean come on, this thing is simply not geared to music, lets not argue the obvious.

some SB products are fantastic, and some aren't. sbradio is just dopey, in pretty much everyway, its way niche and i think at $249 is way overpriced! why anyone would want this over a boom is hard for me to say. i mean its battery operated, but so is SBC. how many people have a spot for this thing where they will have net but not AC?

(and don't anyone get offended by my opinion, its jmho, no need to stress over it)

Phil Leigh
2009-10-07, 09:35
stereo = suitable for music or talk
mono = suitable for talk, not preferable for music

if anyone were to buy this thing to listen to music, i'd think they should have their head examined, (or at least their hearing). even a mono music source doesn't get justice on a tiny thing like this. i mean come on, this thing is simply not geared to music, lets not argue the obvious.

some SB products are fantastic, and some aren't. sbradio is just dopey, in pretty much everyway, its way niche and i think at $249 is way overpriced! why anyone would want this over a boom is hard for me to say. i mean its battery operated, but so is SBC. how many people have a spot for this thing where they will have net but not AC?

(and don't anyone get offended by my opinion, its jmho, no need to stress over it)

erm... until the sixties there was no stereo - I don't think Stereo is in any way, shape or form mandatory - sometimes mono is actually preferable if that is how the material was recorded and mixed...

I have net in my back yard but I'd rather not trail an AC cable over it as I do for the Boom... and when it rains I can just grab it and run!

ymmv

erland
2009-10-07, 09:37
if anyone were to buy this thing to listen to music, i'd think they should have their head examined, (or at least their hearing). even a mono music source doesn't get justice on a tiny thing like this. i mean come on, this thing is simply not geared to music, lets not argue the obvious.

It depends on the placement.

It's certainly not suitable to have as the main player in a dedicated listening rooms, but in other kind of placements it really doesn't matter if it's stereo or mono.
If the surroundings isn't designed for stereo sound, why pay extra for it ?

WustrowO
2009-10-07, 09:43
Correct, but the "old" devices work fine with MySqueezebox.com.

No, that's not exactly true. There are still problems with logging into (subscripted) services and some items (links) on the box or/and the new web "remote control" don't work correctly.

Phil Leigh
2009-10-07, 10:03
The reality - contrary to Mr. Sinatra's opinion - is that the Radio is capable of supplying an average room with very listenable, fatigue free sound. Yes it's not mega-loud, yes it doesn't go very low in the bass, yes it's mono... but it does palpably work, in the same way that the Tivoli Model One, a Grundig Yacht Boy 210 or Boom punch way above their perceived weight.

MrSinatra
2009-10-07, 10:10
erm... until the sixties there was no stereo - I don't think Stereo is in any way, shape or form mandatory - sometimes mono is actually preferable if that is how the material was recorded and mixed...

really? so tell me, when is the last time you fired up a mono source (that you encoded as mono too btw) on your main hifi super expensive stereo system and listened to it out of just ONE speaker???

i have no beef against mono sources, like say the beatles mono set. but if i listen to that, it won't be on this silly sbradio, it'll be on some kind of stereo which is geared towards music.


I have net in my back yard but I'd rather not trail an AC cable over it as I do for the Boom... and when it rains I can just grab it and run!

ymmv

thats fair enough, but my point is that is incredibly niche imo, and even then not suitable for music, talk only. seems to me the SBC suits that scenario better.

MrSinatra
2009-10-07, 10:18
in fairness i should point out that the webpage has it for $199. still way too much imo, but it should be mentioned. (if tobys initial $249 figure is correct, one wonders why it already had a 20% price cut?)

aubuti
2009-10-07, 10:27
if anyone were to buy this thing to listen to music, i'd think they should have their head examined, (or at least their hearing). even a mono music source doesn't get justice on a tiny thing like this. i mean come on, this thing is simply not geared to music, lets not argue the obvious.
So obviously you've heard one, or are you going on specs alone?

erland
2009-10-07, 10:32
in fairness i should point out that the webpage has it for $199. still way too much imo, but it should be mentioned. (if tobys initial $249 figure is correct, one wonders why it already had a 20% price cut?)


I think the optional battery pack takes care of the other $50 so you get a total of $249.

Goodsounds
2009-10-07, 10:32
if anyone were to buy this thing to listen to music, i'd think they should have their head examined,
For most likely placements of an SB Radio, whether it's mono or stereo is going to be irrelevant. In in a kitchen, a bedroom, or outside on a patio, personal movement and body orientation relative to the speakers make it unlikely most people would hear stereo separation anyway. I have an SB3 in my bedroom with good sounding powered stereo speakers, and while it sounds great, I'd likely be just as happy with mono sound. I can't hear stereo separation with one ear against a pillow, or when I'm walking around the room, can you?

A lot of people buy table and clock radios. This product provides those buyers access to the Squeezebox world in a compact form factor, and also at a lower entry cost. Great product design, I think (and hope) it will be very popular.



(and don't anyone get offended by my opinion, its jmho, no need to stress over it)

No harm, no foul

aubuti
2009-10-07, 10:35
No, that's not exactly true. There are still problems with logging into (subscripted) services and some items (links) on the box or/and the new web "remote control" don't work correctly.
Well, some of those same problems exist with people using the "old" devices on SN. Are you suggesting rolling back further than that? Yes, you can find problems with any combination of hardware/software, but I was merely contesting your assertion that the older devices in general do not work with MySB. My SB2s, SB3, Duets, and Boom work just fine with MySB, including subscription services like Napster. I had one problem with the MySB registration for the SB3, but that was sorted out same-day with an email to support.

MrSinatra
2009-10-07, 10:38
So obviously you've heard one, or are you going on specs alone?

yes, b/c i know what stereo sounds like on a mono speaker. are you now going to contend its just as good?

Phil Leigh
2009-10-07, 10:39
really? so tell me, when is the last time you fired up a mono source (that you encoded as mono too btw) on your main hifi super expensive stereo system and listened to it out of just ONE speaker???

i have no beef against mono sources, like say the beatles mono set. but if i listen to that, it won't be on this silly sbradio, it'll be on some kind of stereo which is geared towards music.



thats fair enough, but my point is that is incredibly niche imo, and even then not suitable for music, talk only. seems to me the SBC suits that scenario better.

Well obviously I've never just used one speaker on my main system!
In fact it has something you'd love called "party mode" where it can put a mono source through all 5 speakers - bathing you in mono!

There's no law of the universe that says that music only sounds right/good from two (or more) speakers.

If I had to, I could happily listen to a single big Klipschorn in the corner.

Putting mono through two speakers just makes it louder... try it and see!

MrSinatra
2009-10-07, 10:52
For most likely placements of an SB Radio, whether it's mono or stereo is going to be irrelevant. In in a kitchen, a bedroom, or outside on a patio, personal movement and body orientation relative to the speakers make it unlikely most people would hear stereo separation anyway. I have an SB3 in my bedroom with good sounding powered stereo speakers, and while it sounds great, I'd likely be just as happy with mono sound. I can't hear stereo separation with one ear against a pillow, or when I'm walking around the room, can you?

A lot of people buy table and clock radios. This product provides those buyers access to the Squeezebox world in a compact form factor, and also at a lower entry cost. Great product design, I think (and hope) it will be very popular.

if its popular, then logitech succeeds, making money is the name of the game. but it doesn't change my opinion that its silly. the boom is $299, and according to posts in the radio forum, the boom sounds better.

if one gets the battery too, supposedly a big selling point, then is the $50 saved worth it? and while one might not always be able to perceive stereo separation given activity or environment, i know i can always tell the difference between levels of radios, from a trad alarm clock radio (mono) to a bose wave radio to a true stereo system. its just obvious regardless of environment/activity.

i'm not trying to bgrudge anyone their happiness with this thing, i just question the logic of it. sales is reason alone from a business standpoint, sure, but i don't argue that point. i argue what need this fills, that the boom or SBC doesn't fill better? to me, its a small and expensive niche only, and very questionable.

aubuti
2009-10-07, 10:53
yes, b/c i know what stereo sounds like on a mono speaker. are you now going to contend its just as good?
As I thought -- you're opining that something "obviously" isn't suited for music, but you've never heard it. Well, it's hard to argue with that.

Does the SB Radio sound as good as the Boom? No, not to my ears. Does it sound as good as a comparably priced Tivoli One (http://www.tivoliaudio.com/home.php?cat=262)? Probably yes. And the Tivoli One doesn't do network anything. Does the more expensive Bose table radio (http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/wave_systems/wave_radio_ii/index.jsp) obviously sound better because it's stereo? I doubt it.

MrSinatra
2009-10-07, 11:02
Well obviously I've never just used one speaker on my main system!

exactly.

but thats what the sbradio does, even to STEREO sources, which is the criticism i'm making.


In fact it has something you'd love called "party mode" where it can put a mono source through all 5 speakers - bathing you in mono!

i'm somewhat confused here, as i'm not a 4.1/5.1 expert. isn't that what its supposed to do? is that a special feature? i understand it wouldn't make sense to send stereo to all the speakers without processing, but if it knew the source was mono, why wouldn't it send to all the speakers?


There's no law of the universe that says that music only sounds right/good from two (or more) speakers.

i wasn't saying that. what i was saying, is that most music most people have is stereo, and so this fails out the gate for stereo music sources.

again, i have no beef with mono sources. i do have beef with stereo sources being played back on a mono device thats basically the same cost as alternative stereo devices.


If I had to, I could happily listen to a single big Klipschorn in the corner.

Putting mono through two speakers just makes it louder... try it and see!

yes, i understand that. again, the criticism was stereo music sources via one 3inch speaker (or whatever it is), since most music is in fact, stereo.

MrSinatra
2009-10-07, 11:05
As I thought -- you're opining that something "obviously" isn't suited for music, but you've never heard it. Well, it's hard to argue with that.

Does the SB Radio sound as good as the Boom? No, not to my ears. Does it sound as good as a comparably priced Tivoli One (http://www.tivoliaudio.com/home.php?cat=262)? Probably yes. And the Tivoli One doesn't do network anything. Does the more expensive Bose table radio (http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/wave_systems/wave_radio_ii/index.jsp) obviously sound better because it's stereo? I doubt it.

so obviously, you've heard the bose wave stereo? ;)

i have one, and there is no way the sbradio could sound as good as it does.

btw, you basically proved my point, you just admitted the boom sounds better, something i knew without listening. how? b/c its obvious. sex with a hooker in haiti isn't something i need to try to know its a bad idea.

aubuti
2009-10-07, 11:20
so obviously, you've heard the bose wave stereo? ;)

i have one, and there is no way the sbradio could sound as good as it does.

btw, you basically proved my point, you just admitted the boom sounds better, something i knew without listening. how? b/c its obvious. sex with a hooker in haiti isn't something i need to try to know its a bad idea.
Yes, obviously I've heard plenty of Bose table radios. It's a rather large "niche". They're adequate table radios IMO, but the audio quality is nothing special, especially for $350. I have compared the Bose closely with the mono Tivoli, and I think the mono Tivoli sounds much more musical. But I've never heard the Bose side-by-side with an SB Radio, or done enough careful listening to both (within a reasonable time interval) to make a fair comparison.

And the Boom sounding better than the SB Radio is hardly a controversial point. You have the same materials, similar DSP and other engineering inside. That hardly proves that all stereo audio equipment is superior to all mono equipment.

Phil Leigh
2009-10-07, 11:28
Yes, obviously I've heard plenty of Bose table radios. It's a rather large "niche". They're adequate table radios IMO, but the audio quality is nothing special, especially for $350. I have compared the Bose closely with the mono Tivoli, and I think the mono Tivoli sounds much more musical. But I've never heard the Bose side-by-side with an SB Radio, or done enough careful listening to both (within a reasonable time interval) to make a fair comparison.


For what it's worth, the Tivoli Model One blows the Bose Wave radio away for enjoyment and musicality IMO - stereo or not. Never mind the exhorbitant cost of the Bose (in the UK anyway).

The Radio can hold its own against the Model one (I have both in my kitchen). I can happily listen to either.


ymmv

MrSinatra
2009-10-07, 11:35
That hardly proves that all stereo audio equipment is superior to all mono equipment.

well, when i make that argument, it'll be a fair point. till then, its a strawman.

as to your other point, my question is then this:

why get a sbradio when you can get a boom for $50 more?

or, why not a SBC if thats more suited?

that is ALL i have been trying to say.

andynormancx
2009-10-07, 11:38
why get a sbradio when you can get a boom for $50 more?


Because the Boom cannot isn't battery powered.



or, why not a SBC if thats more suited?


a) because the speaker is a bit crap
b) because playback doesn't really work very well under 7.4

iPhone
2009-10-07, 11:44
yes, b/c i know what stereo sounds like on a mono speaker. are you now going to contend its just as good?

The question has been asked have you actually listened to a Radio? Since that is still unanswered I will take that as a NO. Your position holds no weight whatsoever since you know not what you are speaking about.

Is the Radio perfect, it is not. Does it sound good for what it is, IMO it sounds great for what it is (and I have one). The Mono from the two drives sounds really good and let us not forget that DSP is involved. This is much more then a mono clock radio with a single 2 inch paper cone driver. Does my Boom sound better, I think it does. But the better half loves the Radio for its size and sound. It is a great little radio for bedside, table top, back deck, or kitchen counter. Is it for a party on the back deck, no it is not, it is for background or local listening while enjoying the late afternoon.

As to price, I think its not priced right as my argument is that with battery and remote it is only $50 less then a Boom. But again the consumer, the market, and time will tell what is the right price. So on price, I would say we agree.

And in your later posts you keep comparing it to stereo units. That is like comparing Elephants to Raisins just because they both have wrinkles. The Radio sounds good for what it is. And now that you admit you have a Bose Radio this discussion is completely over! Talk about an over priced piece of junk, the Bose Radio takes the prize in that department. All one gets with it is all the advertising it took to get one to buy it and the advertising it takes for the next sucker to buy one. Bose proved that with enough advertising one CAN even sell ice to Eskimos! Bose IS all about the money and nothing to do with the sound. Look at the 901, a cheap 4 inch paper full range driver facing forward with 8 of the same drivers facing the rear. Bose are the masters of the advertising con game. Logitech puts separate modern drivers in both the Boom and Radio, not cheap small full range drivers.

aubuti
2009-10-07, 11:47
well, when i make that argument, it'll be a fair point. till then, its a strawman.
Fine, then insert "there is no way the sbradio could sound as good as it [Bose wave radio] does." If stereo/mono wasn't your basis for that comparison, what was?


as to your other point, my question is then this:

why get a sbradio when you can get a boom for $50 more?

or, why not a SBC if thats more suited?
I wouldn't. (I also wouldn't buy a Bose Wave for $150 more, but I digress.) Why might others buy the SB Radio instead of a Boom?

a) because the Boom is $100 more, not $50
b) battery capability (which then makes the difference only $50)
c) smaller footprint
d) LCD screen (I like the VFD better, but some prefer the LCD)

pfarrell
2009-10-07, 11:50
iPhone wrote:
> MrSinatra;468580 Wrote:
>> yes, b/c i know what stereo sounds like on a mono speaker. are you now
>> going to contend its just as good?
>
> The question has been asked have you actually listened to a Radio?
> Since that is still unanswered I will take that as a NO. Your position
> holds no weight whatsoever since you know not what you are speaking
> about.

Seriously, do not feed the trolls.
Why are there so many rude comments? because there are too many trolls


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

iPhone
2009-10-07, 12:02
iPhone wrote:
> MrSinatra;468580 Wrote:
>> yes, b/c i know what stereo sounds like on a mono speaker. are you now
>> going to contend its just as good?
>
> The question has been asked have you actually listened to a Radio?
> Since that is still unanswered I will take that as a NO. Your position
> holds no weight whatsoever since you know not what you are speaking
> about.

Seriously, do not feed the trolls.
Why are there so many rude comments? because there are too many trolls


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

Pat, you are once again completely correct. I just can't keep from typing sometimes especially when somebody doesn't even own and has never heard the product they are bashing (and they are whining about the price and they own a Bose Wave Radio for crying out loud).

Good point and learn from this kids, Pat says "Don't Feed the Trolls"

MrSinatra
2009-10-07, 12:05
to andynorx:

obviously, i meant to use the sbc with headphones.


The question has been asked have you actually listened to a Radio? Since that is still unanswered I will take that as a NO. Your position holds no weight whatsoever since you know not what you are speaking about.

i answered it. and frankly, you guys harping on this point isn't very valid since i have yet to hear anyone say the sbradio sounds better than the boom.

can i not use aggregated opinion from these boards?


Is the Radio perfect, it is not. Does it sound good for what it is, IMO it sounds great for what it is (and I have one). The Mono from the two drives sounds really good and let us not forget that DSP is involved. This is much more then a mono clock radio with a single 2 inch paper cone driver. Does my Boom sound better, I think it does. But the better half loves the Radio for its size and sound. It is a great little radio for bedside, table top, back deck, or kitchen counter. Is it for a party on the back deck, no it is not, it is for background or local listening while enjoying the late afternoon.

is the boom not for those things?


As to price, I think its not priced right as my argument is that with battery and remote it is only $50 less then a Boom. But again the consumer, the market, and time will tell what is the right price. So on price, I would say we agree.

well, that was one of the two pillars of my argument.


And in your later posts you keep comparing it to stereo units. That is like comparing Elephants to Raisins just because they both have wrinkles. The Radio sounds good for what it is.

if we forget price, and just compare sbradio to boom, boom wins. now, we can debate what is or isn't the equal of the boom outside slim, or how much difference in price matters, but the basic premise is to me, set.


And now that you admit you have a Bose Radio this discussion is completely over!

wow, thats reasonable! ;)


Talk about an over priced piece of junk, the Bose Radio takes the prize in that department. All one gets with it is all the advertising it took to get one to buy it and the advertising it takes for the next sucker to buy one. Bose proved that with enough advertising one CAN even sell ice to Eskimos! Bose IS all about the money and nothing to do with the sound. Look at the 901, a cheap 4 inch paper full range driver facing forward with 8 of the same drivers facing the rear. Bose are the masters of the advertising con game. Logitech puts separate modern drivers in both the Boom and Radio, not cheap small full range drivers.

i paid well under $100 for mine (refurb). not sure what model, but it has CD. its the best bedside alarm clock/radio i've ever had. and to me it sounds loud and full without getting distorted. i've never heard a boom side by side to it, but i don't recall thinking "hey, that boom sounds better." maybe it does, hopefully one day i can find out.

anyway...

i'd rather have my inexpensive (to me) wave or pay for a boom, then have the pointless (to me) sbradio.

Pale Blue Ego
2009-10-07, 12:05
stereo = suitable for music or talk
mono = suitable for talk, not preferable for music

Mono sounds fantastic on our Tivoli iPal. Plenty loud, even for outdoors. We use it outside when we do yard work and gardening.

MrSinatra
2009-10-07, 12:18
good job pat! call me a troll b/c you don't like me or what i say, or that i DARE to criticze something about slim!

gimmie a break. first of all, i made one off hand remark about the sbradio, and lots of others asked me to clarify. excuse me for answering.

secondly, it is TOTALLY germane to the forums to make judgments about the products, and or compare and contrast them and teir qualities, and or talk about bang for your buck.

if that kind of discussion becomes classified by pom pom'rs as "troll" behavior this forum is doomed to cheerleading.


Fine, then insert "there is no way the sbradio could sound as good as it [Bose wave radio] does." If stereo/mono wasn't your basis for that comparison, what was?

i've heard my bose for years, and i've heard stereo sources on many differing mono players, and so i am taking a qualified leap to say what i am saying, esp since others here say the boom sounds better, and i think the boom is roughly equal to my bose, (but again, i have not been able to do side by side, i only heard the boom in a store, so not the best way to judge i admit) but its on the basis of all that i made the judgment hardly reason for pat or iphone to attack me.


I wouldn't. (I also wouldn't buy a Bose Wave for $150 more, but I digress.) Why might others buy the SB Radio instead of a Boom?

a) because the Boom is $100 more, not $50
b) battery capability (which then makes the difference only $50)
c) smaller footprint
d) LCD screen (I like the VFD better, but some prefer the LCD)

without the battery, it loses one of its main differentiating characteristics. with it, it becomes a pretty slight price difference. i still don't see great need of a battery operated device that can get net bu won't have AC access.

smaller... well, the sbc is smaller still, and has a lcd screen, and a battery. but how many people need the space between a sbradio and boom?

interestingly we agree apparently on the utility to ourselves. our only difference of opinion is you seem to think this has a place for some, whereas i, imho, don't think it legitimately does. but i guess thats enough to make me a troll. ;)

MrSinatra
2009-10-07, 12:22
Mono sounds fantastic on our Tivoli iPal. Plenty loud, even for outdoors. We use it outside when we do yard work and gardening.

i believe you, really i do. but my contention is that, all other things being equal, stereo sources sound better on stereo players, and so i would try to make that happen in whatever usage case i required.

bluegaspode
2009-10-07, 12:41
Hello,

I confess !
I'm one of the bad guys.
I just ordered a radio.

Do I feel bad ? Hell no ... can't wait the postman ringing ...

So I think the question was: why not the boom ?
I think thats easy ...
- radio is 100bucks cheaper.
- radio has a size which fits the small table at the bedside (boom just too big)
- if a boom stood there I wouldn't have stereo either (just one ear pointing to the stereo boom is mono - isn't it ? )
- did I says it was on my bedside ? No - my better half demanded to have it on hers (she saw it at IFA earlier) ! So even less demand for stereo and SHE definitely doesn't care
- and did I mention that its much more comfortable to move through the menus of a radio than a boom ?

So why not a Controller then ?
- Um - its more expensive than a radio (ok - just 10 bucks)
- But does it have a speaker to fall into sleep while its playing ? Um - yes it has a speaker - but we REALLY don't wont to talk about it :)
- Does it have favourites ? Sort of but not with extra buttons to switch fast between my favourite radio stations ?
- Does it stand as good on the bedside as a radio ? No - if I don't take it, it falls over
- and the most important point: did my better half ever use the Controller yet ? Nooooooooo ... don't know why ... she just makes fun of me when I sit here fiddling with this little thingy

Guess I had no other chance than bying a radio ?

Would I buy one more radio ?
Maybe for the kitchen ? When dinner is cooking I really don't care for stereo too and why not take the cheaper price then ?

snarlydwarf
2009-10-07, 12:51
Hello,

I confess !
I'm one of the bad guys.
I just ordered a radio.


I hate to inform you of this, but you simply do not exist, as there is no market for such a thing.




- if a boom stood there I wouldn't have stereo either (just one ear pointing to the stereo boom is mono - isn't it ? )


Exactly. or sitting too close... it is very easy to corrupt the stereo effect.

But, then, you don't exist, so I can't agree with you.

Did I mention I hate headphones?

Earbuds make my ears bleed, proper headphones make them sweat and isolate other sounds far too well. (I do need to hear the phone ring and such.)

MrSinatra
2009-10-07, 12:52
bgp,

you're not a bad guy. ;) i'm glad you're happy with it, although maybe you need a bigger bedside table???

MrSinatra
2009-10-07, 12:57
I hate to inform you of this, but you simply do not exist, as there is no market for such a thing.

i doubt there is a big market, but popular or not, i think its unnecessary.


Exactly. or sitting too close... it is very easy to corrupt the stereo effect.

sure, but i wasn't suggesting one always needed perfect stereo imaging in order to enjoy a better experience. in other words, (all other things being equal) a stereo sounds better to me even when i am not getting the perfect stereo effect, than a mono player does. (and in fact, mono sounds better to me when i use both ears, imagine that!)

WustrowO
2009-10-07, 12:58
Well, some of those same problems exist with people using the "old" devices on SN. Are you suggesting rolling back further than that? Yes, you can find problems with any combination of hardware/software, but I was merely contesting your assertion that the older devices in general do not work with MySB. My SB2s, SB3, Duets, and Boom work just fine with MySB, including subscription services like Napster. I had one problem with the MySB registration for the SB3, but that was sorted out same-day with an email to support.

That's fine for you ;) But you shouldn't ignore the fact that a lot of people have problems with their "old" devices - which worked fine until some days ago on Squeezenetwork. It's getting better now but some problems still exist. Take a look around in this forum...

My suggestion was quite simple. Build a new site for the new devices and keep the old site for the old devices for some time. The brave ones may switch to new early, the other ones migrate after the usual consolidation phase of a new site. I know it's too late now concerning the switch to MySB - but maybe it's an idea for future updates. It's reducing complexity...

aubuti
2009-10-07, 13:33
That's fine for you ;) But you shouldn't ignore the fact that a lot of people have problems with their "old" devices - which worked fine until some days ago on Squeezenetwork. It's getting better now but some problems still exist. Take a look around in this forum...

My suggestion was quite simple. Build a new site for the new devices and keep the old site for the old devices for some time. The brave ones may switch to new early, the other ones migrate after the usual consolidation phase of a new site. I know it's too late now concerning the switch to MySB - but maybe it's an idea for future updates. It's reducing complexity...
I'm not ignoring them, I just don't see the point of setting up a completely parallel web site. Don't you think the staff are stretched enough as it is? And I certainly don't see how that would reduce complexity -- rather it would multiply it.

Please, give me a specific example of how an SB2 or SB3 does not work with MySB. I am not denying that there are such problems, but sometimes concrete examples are much more enlightening than vague generalities.

Ikabob
2009-10-07, 13:49
I am using the SB3,the Boom and the radio. Do not get me wrong because I really like the SB system. But , since the switch to 7.4 etc....I have posted this but I have no responses back and since you, aubuti, seem to know what is going on and you seem to want to improve things....I will ask you:


When I add the radio station's common "call letters" to the playlist (on SB3,Boom) after a while the common names either totally disappear from the playlist or else the common call letters are replaced by a long list of letters and numbers that mean nothing to me....maybe the URL. This, of course, makes it impossible to identify which stations are being selected. When I do select one of the numbers , sometime the common name does reappear....but it is a guessing game to select what I am actually looking for. This is a new problem and was not like this in the previous version 7.3. Can this be fixed and are the devs who are working on fixes know that this is a problem? Any suggestions? Anyone else have this problem?


This is very inconvenient not knowing which station I am going to get. Thanks.

aubuti
2009-10-07, 14:00
I am using the SB3,the Boom and the radio. Do not get me wrong because I really like the SB system. But , since the switch to 7.4 etc....I have posted this but I have no responses back and since you, aubuti, seem to know what is going on and you seem to want to improve things....I will ask you:


When I add the radio station's common "call letters" to the playlist (on SB3,Boom) after a while the common names either totally disappear from the playlist or else the common call letters are replaced by a long list of letters and numbers that mean nothing to me....maybe the URL. This, of course, makes it impossible to identify which stations are being selected. When I do select one of the numbers , sometime the common name does reappear....but it is a guessing game to select what I am actually looking for. This is a new problem and was not like this in the previous version 7.3. Can this be fixed and are the devs who are working on fixes know that this is a problem? Any suggestions? Anyone else have this problem?

This is very inconvenient not knowing which station I am going to get. Thanks.
Hmm, I put my favorite radio stations in Favorites instead of in playlists and I haven't experienced that kind of renaming/corruption in Favorites (knock wood). So I don't have much help to offer you. Maybe you could post an example of such a playlist, preferably one clean one and then the same one after it has gotten mangled.

I'm curious: why do you use playlists instead of Favorites for radio stations? Does it have to do with your posts a while back about radio stations cutting out on you? Also, are you connecting via SbS, or is it a direct connection to MySB (ie, no local server in the equation)?

EDIT: I forgot to ask, how are you editing the radio station names in the playlist?

Ikabob
2009-10-07, 14:14
Thanks for your response. I am using the playlist for radio stations because I have soooo many in my favorites that I just put the best of my favorites in the playlist. I thought that was what the Now Playng category was for. I guess I could use only the favorites part for my radio stations...the favorites area works great. To answer your questions I am using msb.com most all of the time. I have fixed tha cut off problem...it was do to a known bug in my modem which I replaced...it works great now. I love the setup. So, I know thae playlist allowed me to collect the common "call letters" before...but not now. As far as editing the names in my playlist...I don't edit them...how do you do that anyway? So...thanks.

DotSystem
2009-10-07, 14:15
That's fine for you ;) My suggestion was quite simple. Build a new site for the new devices and keep the old site for the old devices for some time. The brave ones may switch to new early, the other ones migrate after the usual consolidation phase of a new site. I know it's too late now concerning the switch to MySB - but maybe it's an idea for future updates. It's reducing complexity...

Would multiple websites actually be necessary or just one that recognizes and responds correctly to different software versions?

toby10
2009-10-07, 14:33
Would multiple websites actually be necessary or just one that recognizes and responds correctly to different software versions?

It does this now.
MySB works fine with SC and SBS. As well as any players coming from SC and SBS, though you'll have to live with the FW Update loop for most players if doing this from SC.

DotSystem
2009-10-07, 14:48
It does this now.
MySB works fine with SC and SBS. As well as any players coming from SC and SBS, though you'll have to live with the FW Update loop for most players if doing this from SC.

I should have added 'without pushing updates to clients'. In my definition pushing an update is not the 'correct' response of the website. The intent is for the web site to be designed to deal with each official release as-is.

aubuti
2009-10-07, 14:51
Thanks for your response. I am using the playlist for radio stations because I have soooo many in my favorites that I just put the best of my favorites in the playlist. I thought that was what the Now Playng category was for. I guess I could use only the favorites part for my radio stations...the favorites area works great. To answer your questions I am using msb.com most all of the time. I have fixed tha cut off problem...it was do to a known bug in my modem which I replaced...it works great now. I love the setup. So, I know thae playlist allowed me to collect the common "call letters" before...but not now. As far as editing the names in my playlist...I don't edit them...how do you do that anyway? So...thanks.
Sorry, but you lost me in a few places there. I think we're miscommunicating on some terminology here. For example, you say above that you don't edit the names in the playlist, but earlier you said "When I add the radio station's common "call letters" to the playlist (on SB3,Boom) ". I don't understand how you can add call letters to the playlist without editing that playlist.

Second, I'm a little confused by what you mean by the "Now Playing category". It's not a "category" -- it is the current playlist. So do you switch radio stations by scrolling up and down the playlist in Now Playing and then press play? I know there are many ways to do things, but I'm sorry, that's just plain strange. ;o)

I suggest shifting to the way things were designed to work. Or at least my interpretation of that. Put your favorite stations in Favorites. On MSB.com, use the very slick "Favorites" tool to add human-readable names such as call letters to go with the URLs. Use that tool's drag-and-drop capabilities to put your favorites near the top. I also like to group stations by type (eg, news, blues, world, etc.)

If you use favorites and playlists the same way with SbS, I suggest changing that as well. One of the great things about favorites on SC/SbS is the ability to create and nest folders, so you don't have only one flat list of favorites like you do on SN/MSB. And SbS supports drag-and-drop re-ordering and nesting in folders.

As you have a long list of favorites, re-organizing things will take some time. I suggest maybe just starting with your most favorite stations, and getting used to it. Btw, as you may have noticed, if you select a station to play from Favorites, your current playlist (ie, Now Playing) becomes just that one station.

I know you were probably looking for a quick fix instead of an overhaul, and maybe if I understand better how you're doing things I'll be able to think of a quick fix.

toby10
2009-10-07, 15:00
I should have added 'without pushing updates to clients'. In my definition pushing an update is not the 'correct' response of the website. The intent is for the web site to be designed to deal with each official release as-is.

Well you have these options:
- Use SBS and it's early quirks, no FW Update loop switching to MySB
- Use SC and MySB with FW Update loop
- Use SC and MySB with players that ignore the FW Update (SB3)
- Use SC only, don't switch to MySB
- Use only MySB

SteveEast
2009-10-07, 15:26
I hate to inform you of this, but you simply do not exist, as there is no market for such a thing.


Argh! That explains it! I thought I had 3 Radios on order but now I feel myself slowly fading away....

Steve.

bluegaspode
2009-10-07, 15:32
Argh! That explains it! I thought I had 3 Radios on order but now I feel myself slowly fading away....

Steve.

Thats still only 4 sold units, guess thats not enough to make any money for logitech.

bluegaspode
2009-10-07, 15:34
Argh! That explains it! I thought I had 3 Radios on order but now I feel myself slowly fading away....

Steve.

Alas,
But you DO now, that for stereo-playback you would only need two radios or just one boom *g* ?

MrSinatra
2009-10-07, 16:17
Thats still only 4 sold units, guess thats not enough to make any money for logitech.

i never said it wouldn't be popular, altho that remains to be seen, i said that even if it is, (or isn't), i don't see the need for it, or where its justified, and i still don't, (in a mass market sense).

having said that, you guys need to relax, you disagree, i get it, don't get your panties in a bunch over it.

kmr
2009-10-07, 18:55
i have no beef against mono sources, like say the beatles mono set. but if i listen to that, it won't be on this silly sbradio, it'll be on some kind of stereo which is geared towards music.

...

thats fair enough, but my point is that is incredibly niche imo, and even then not suitable for music, talk only. seems to me the SBC suits that scenario better.

There are tons of places in my house where I want to listen to music that don't qualify as "suitable for music" - the kitchen, washing dishes; the garage, working on the car; the back porch, enjoying the almost-always-beautiful SoCal weather; etc, etc. Headphones are not an option in these places, but portability is paramount. The non-silly SB Radio looks just like what the Dr. ordered for me, and likely for lots of folks that don't require that all of our music listening be in stereo. If you're not one of those people, fine; but it's rather presumptious to assume that your biases prevail. Maybe if you had said "I personally can't stand listening to music from a mono-only source..." you wouldn't be getting the reaction you're getting.

MrSinatra
2009-10-07, 19:02
i'm getting the reaction i'm getting b/c some people can't stand any criticism of slim stuff, and others have long standing beef with me.

if i believe the sbradio is dopey, thats my right, and if others disagree, thats their right. but i do back up why i feel that way and simply having a negative view on something slim offers is not troll behavior, nor reason to attack me.

btw, i never said my biases prevail. it remains to be seen if the sbradio is a winner or not, but either way, it doesn't chang the academic points i'm making, for lack of a better term. popularity and success doesn't mean its in fact good, likewise failure doesn't mean it wasn't good. finally, if i had said what you suggested, i still would have been attacked, b/c some people here are freakishly overly sensitive, and it really wouldn't have spoken to what i think about the sbradio product, but rather my listening preferences... surely not all comments re: slim need to be positive and patronizing?

pablolie
2009-10-07, 19:15
There are tons of places in my house where I want to listen to music that don't qualify as "suitable for music" - the kitchen, washing dishes; the garage, working on the car; the back porch, enjoying the almost-always-beautiful SoCal weather; etc, etc. Headphones are not an option in these places, but portability is paramount. The non-silly SB Radio looks just like what the Dr. ordered for me, and likely for lots of folks that don't require that all of our music listening be in stereo. If you're not one of those people, fine; but it's rather presumptious to assume that your biases prevail. Maybe if you had said "I personally can't stand listening to music from a mono-only source..." you wouldn't be getting the reaction you're getting.

I do treasure the moments when I sit in front of my main music worship system. But come on, most of our music listening is not done in ideal venues. And anyone that holds their face about 9 inches in front of their their Boom to get the stereo effect gets my major kudos for audiophile dedication.

kmr
2009-10-07, 19:25
i'm getting the reaction i'm getting b/c some people can't stand any criticism of slim stuff, and others have long standing beef with me.

if i believe the sbradio is dopey, thats my right, and if others disagree, thats their right. but i do back up why i feel that way and simply having a negative view on something slim offers is not troll behavior, nor reason to attack me.

I think you're getting the reaction you're getting because you've been saying stuff like:


if anyone were to buy this thing to listen to music, i'd think they should have their head examined, (or at least their hearing). even a mono music source doesn't get justice on a tiny thing like this. i mean come on, this thing is simply not geared to music, lets not argue the obvious.

and


but my point is that is incredibly niche imo, and even then not suitable for music, talk only. seems to me the SBC suits that scenario better.

Seriously, are we to laugh or cry at this? Obviously you have the complete right to your opinions; but despite occasional claims of "jmho", you're strongly asserting that people who don't share your opinions "should have their head examined" and "this thing is simply not geared for music". I think it has been demonstrated by the replies in this thread that there are a lot of sane people, who appreciate quality music reproduction, that have heard highly musical reproduction of stereo music through mono systems; who value having a medium-fidelity, highly portable SB streamer; who are not well served by attaching headphones to an SBC; and who are not claiming that their opinions are more-or-less universal truths (you didn't say those words, but it's a pretty fair summation of the totality of your posts on this subject).

I'm not trying to argue with you at all, and I'm not trying to convince you that your position is wrong FOR YOU; but your position is wrong for a lot of other people, and you are doing them a disservice by your thoughtless comments such as "should have their heads examined." Hope you take this post in the constructive criticism spirit in which it is intended. Your comments haven't seemed trollish at all to me, just less-well-thought-out than they could be...

MrSinatra
2009-10-07, 19:46
look, thats kool and the gang. but if you look back at the thread, people asked me for my opinion, (or challenged it), all i did was make my case. if they didn't like it, thats really not my problem. (eg. your ? was "whats not to love?" i answered it) afterall, i didn't lead off with 'head examined,' it was only after my original replies weren't accepted i more stridently made my point. and i wasn't saying SBC only, i was saying that in almost all cases i can envision, people are better served by either the SBC or the Boom. even after all these posts, other than tiny bedside tables, i still don't see where the sbradio fits better than those two clients.

like, does washing dishes mean you can't use a boom? can one not tell the difference between a boom or a sbradio if they don't have perfect stereo imaging body placement? or some other room noise? if i work on my car, am i not more likely to want a louder device than a quieter one? just b/c the environment isn't perfect, does that mean i need to cripple my audio player to save $50?

like i said, i get it, some in this thread disagree, fair enough.

Ikabob
2009-10-07, 21:03
Sorry, but you lost me in a few places there. I think we're miscommunicating on some terminology here. For example, you say above that you don't edit the names in the playlist, but earlier you said "When I add the radio station's common "call letters" to the playlist (on SB3,Boom) ". I don't understand how you can add call letters to the playlist without editing that playlist.

Second, I'm a little confused by what you mean by the "Now Playing category". It's not a "category" -- it is the current playlist. So do you switch radio stations by scrolling up and down the playlist in Now Playing and then press play? I know there are many ways to do things, but I'm sorry, that's just plain strange. ;o)

I suggest shifting to the way things were designed to work. Or at least my interpretation of that. Put your favorite stations in Favorites. On MSB.com, use the very slick "Favorites" tool to add human-readable names such as call letters to go with the URLs. Use that tool's drag-and-drop capabilities to put your favorites near the top. I also like to group stations by type (eg, news, blues, world, etc.)

If you use favorites and playlists the same way with SbS, I suggest changing that as well. One of the great things about favorites on SC/SbS is the ability to create and nest folders, so you don't have only one flat list of favorites like you do on SN/MSB. And SbS supports drag-and-drop re-ordering and nesting in folders.

As you have a long list of favorites, re-organizing things will take some time. I suggest maybe just starting with your most favorite stations, and getting used to it. Btw, as you may have noticed, if you select a station to play from Favorites, your current playlist (ie, Now Playing) becomes just that one station.

I know you were probably looking for a quick fix instead of an overhaul, and maybe if I understand better how you're doing things I'll be able to think of a quick fix.

Thank you for these recommendations and for the advice. I actually did think that selections from "favorites" were supposed to go first into the playlist and actually stay there....and from the "now playing" scroll-down, I should choose my station. To me it seemed the way it was supposed to be done...it didn't seem strange to me...but I guess it was. :O) So, I now understand that my radio selection should come directly from the "favorites" list . I will now re-order my favorites from most favorite to least. Thank you very much.( I did try to reorder and the names didn't move upwards very easily [may be a bug]...I like the system similar to the Netflix "your queue" list...where selections can be numbered and moved quickly and easily. Also, I found that when I did edit the name then it could no longer be moved. ).
Also, FYI, almost all of my listening is via MSB.com and I very rarely use SBS. I need to discover the uses of SBS. Again, thanks for all your assistance. I DO like the Squeezes VERY much. I am very thankful I chose the Logitech products over any others that I explored. The fidelity is very good and the variety of available audio products (Boom,SB3,SBRadio,etc)are very usefull,functional and applicable. THANKS.

aubuti
2009-10-07, 21:21
Also, FYI, almost all of my listening is via MSB.com and I very rarely use SBS. I need to discover the uses of SBS. Again, thanks for all your assistance. I DO like the Squeezes VERY much. I am very thankful I chose the Logitech products over any others that I explored. The fidelity is very good and the variety of available audio products (Boom,SB3,SBRadio,etc)are very usefull,functional and applicable. THANKS.
I guess things aren't always as intuitive as they should be. Re MSB vs. SBS, the main thing that SBS gives you that MSB doesn't is the ability to listen to your own music that you have stored on a computer. I'd venture that most SB users rip all their CDs to a hard disk, and store with any downloaded music they might have (eg, iTunes or Amazon MP3 purchases). Then that music is available anywhere in the house (or at least anywhere there's an SB within earshot) via SBS. If you don't have a lot of CDs or downloaded music, then SBS might not be appealing to you. But if you're ever in the living room trying to find that CD you want to hear, but it's upstairs in the bedroom or in the car, or if you want to make mixes of various tracks or albums from your music collection, then getting your own music onto your growing family of SBs is the next logical step in your SB indoctrination.

toby10
2009-10-08, 03:10
One of the BIG drawbacks of SN/MySB is the lack of customization for Favorites, like creating Folders and sub-Folders.
This is why Ikabob and others try workarounds like Playlists etc..
For casual MySB listeners it's a minor annoyance. For dedicated MySB users it's a major PITA.
I'm not knocking MySB, it is what it is, and it has limitations. :(

alfista
2009-10-08, 07:28
I have also used the current playlist for radio stations and observed the same problems, MSB is my main source until I get around to build a dedicated media server.
One reason why I tried it was because I wanted to jump back and forth betweeen stations with rew/fwd buttons, but that (mostly) didn't work. I have quite a few favourites of different categories on MSB and found it to be convenient to place a subset of them on the playlist according to what music I was in the mood for. Apparently this is not something that the developers have envisioned since already before the update it didn't work exactly as one could expect. Doesn't work "as expected" on SBS either. There's a thread about this in the Squeezenetwork section, I suggest that those (if any) interested in the issue use that thread instead.

kmr
2009-10-08, 16:22
I'll try one more time:


like, does washing dishes mean you can't use a boom? can one not tell the difference between a boom or a sbradio if they don't have perfect stereo imaging body placement? or some other room noise? if i work on my car, am i not more likely to want a louder device than a quieter one? just b/c the environment isn't perfect, does that mean i need to cripple my audio player to save $50?

like i said, i get it, some in this thread disagree, fair enough.

As many people have said: THE BOOM ISN'T PORTABLE THE SAME WAY THE RADIO IS PORTABLE. The Boom requires AC power; the Radio (once the battery pack is released) doesn't. That's a big deal for me; but I don't claim that the Boom is "crippled" because it requires AC power - just that it is much less effective for MY needs. The Boom is twice the size of the Radio; that makes it too big for my nightstand - but the Radio fits fine. Maybe you can buy a bigger nightstand if you need to, but new bedside furniture is way down on my priority list.

As many people have said: I am quite certain that the Boom would sound better than the Radio in a blind listening test. However, THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE RADIO SOUNDS BAD. Lots of folks who were part of the Radio beta program have said that the Radio is comparable to stuff that I *have* heard and liked, such as the Tivoli One. Doesn't mean that YOU have to like it, but it doesn't make my liking it any less valid. If you would stop using such phrases as "cripple my audio player", you would be taken more seriously.

And maybe $100 dollars (not including the battery pack) is no big deal to you, but to other people, it can be the difference between "I can afford this" and "I can't afford this". (I'm assuming that if someone has seriously considered the Boom, the portability factor is not an overriding concern, so the extra $50 for the battery pack is moot.)

I'd love to have a Boom or two for various places around the house, but I just can't justify $300 right now for a smallish self-contained streaming music player that is tied to a wall outlet. But I CAN justify $250 for the smaller Radio and its battery pack; the size and the portability are big enough positives to tip the scales. If I don't like the sound, I'll send it back and keep looking. But please feel free to buy all the Booms you want - they do sound great and it helps keeps the Logitech SMBU profitable, and hopefully keeps you happy with good music. Isn't that what it's all about anyway?

MrSinatra
2009-10-08, 16:24
if it has the battery, then its only $50 difference. and i'd feel sorry for anyone that had this as their only slim product. if it isn't their only one however, i doubt money is that big an issue.

toby10
2009-10-09, 02:51
if it has the battery, then its only $50 difference. and i'd feel sorry for anyone that had this as their only slim product. if it isn't their only one however, i doubt money is that big an issue.

I agree with many of your points about Radio vs Boom.
But I think your $50 price differential is not a fair argument for comparison. The Radio is $100 less than Boom for comparable operation (requiring an outlet). If SD had offered a $50 battery for the Boom (which I think would have been quite popular) then you are back to the $100 price difference.

WustrowO
2009-10-09, 03:24
Please, give me a specific example of how an SB2 or SB3 does not work with MySB. I am not denying that there are such problems, but sometimes concrete examples are much more enlightening than vague generalities.

You can find some examples here: http://forums.slimdevices.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10

toby10
2009-10-09, 05:18
You can find some examples here: http://forums.slimdevices.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10

Well that's helpful.
Using your same vague criteria I suppose it is fair to say that ALL Volkswagon vehicles should be avoided at all costs based on this URL:
http://www.cars-that-suck.com/stories.html

aubuti
2009-10-09, 05:58
Please, give me a specific example of how an SB2 or SB3 does not work with MySB. I am not denying that there are such problems, but sometimes concrete examples are much more enlightening than vague generalities.

You can find some examples here: http://forums.slimdevices.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10
That's your specific example? At the time I'm looking at the SN/MSB forum the top 3 threads, and many of those below, have absolutely nothing to do with the upgrade to 7.4. If you can't be bothered even to cite a specific example around which one can have a constructive dialogue then I think I'm done with this conversation.

Siduhe
2009-10-09, 06:15
i wasn't saying SBC only, i was saying that in almost all cases i can envision, people are better served by either the SBC or the Boom. even after all these posts, other than tiny bedside tables, i still don't see where the sbradio fits better than those two clients.

like, does washing dishes mean you can't use a boom? can one not tell the difference between a boom or a sbradio if they don't have perfect stereo imaging body placement?

Perhaps I can add a real world example. I have a whole mix of Slim Devices hardware round the house - SB1/SB2/Classic/Controller/Boom in normal use. During the beta testing, I set up the Radio in my kitchen (taking one of the Classic's out of rotation). I also have a weekly cleaner, who has never even touched or showed the slightest interest in any of the previous hardware. Within two weeks she had got to grips with the Radio (no prompting from me), selecting local music and radio and (big grrr here) even programming some new presets. She didn't actually realise it was internet radio at first but instinctively got to grips with it.

The kicker is that, even after I've shown her how the Classic and Boom work (i.e. the same way) she won't use them - just doesn't get it. She carries the radio round the house with her, plugging it in as she goes. The Radio works for her, period. It may not make a huge amount of sense, but there it is.

funkstar
2009-10-09, 07:45
if anyone were to buy this thing to listen to music, i'd think they should have their head examined, (or at least their hearing). even a mono music source doesn't get justice on a tiny thing like this. i mean come on, this thing is simply not geared to music, lets not argue the obvious.
OK I'll bite.

I've bucked in and out of this thread a couple of times. But it's only after jumping back through a couple of quotes that I've seen this post. Have you listened to the Radio yet?

The Radio has been my most used player for a couple of months now. Listening mainly to BBC 6Music in my study, and some albums as well. I don't sit down to listen to music, but it's always on when I'm working or just pottering about. I'm not an audiophile by any means, but I can tell the difference in sound from the Radio and the SB3 hooked to my AV amp, the Touch hooked to Logitech stereo speakers on my desk and my Boom in the kitchen. Yes the sound is "smaller" than the other setups, but saying someone needs their head examined if they use it to listen to music is quite frankly ridiculous.

The Radio is not an audiophiles product, it is not a Boom replacement, it is not the pinnacle of the Squeezebox line up. However, it is a very capable little player with a surprising amount of volume and quality as far as the sound is concerned.

This is a mass consumer device. So if you compare it most other music systems in that market, I would guess it knocks their socks off. It certainly sounds better than any of the regular iPod docks and DAB radios I've listened to, and millions of poeple find them acceptable as music sources.

The Radio isn't for you. Fine. But don't start insulting people that do like it and have bought it and do enjoy it. Logitech aren't going to just release a product and hope there is a market there for it, saying it is a very niche product is probably way off the mark. Their market research would have shown a desire for such a product. If it was niche, there wouldn't be the clamour to get hold of them all across europe as evidenced by the multiple threads discussing that issue.

MeSue
2009-10-09, 09:03
why get a sbradio when you can get a boom for $50 more?

It's more portable.
It's easier to carry.
No power cord to deal with when toting it outside.
Mono is just fine for many areas.
Takes less space on the night-stand
Takes less space on the bathroom counter.
Takes less space in the guest bedroom.
Takes less space in the kitchen.
If you don't want to disturb a partner, it can be moved from the nightstand to the bathroom while getting ready without stopping the music.
Easier to see outdoors (I thought it would be worse compared to Boom, but with Erlands customizable screensavers I can make it better).
It comes in RED!
It has a dedicated volume knob.
It can be a controller for other players.
Facebook is better on a color screen (and yes, some people DO find it useful!)
It can display photos.

MrSinatra
2009-10-09, 11:36
then get a SBC, (unless redness is that important to you). :)

i understand that arguments such as "less space" actually mean something to some of you, but they don't to me, given its drawbacks. less space isn't anywhere near as important for such an otherwise expensive product, yet its mono only.

i'm just amazed that with so many audiophile people here, or at least people who want high quality music reproduction at acceptable prices (which is why i got my SB2 all those years ago, it certainly wasn't the software!) ...that these same quality sound oriented people happily settle for a mono client.

i'm sure the interface is nice and think the boom should get it, i'm sure the space savings and battery is nice, etc... but inspite of all those things you all love about it, for the price i simply can't get past its crippled as a music client. the buck stops right there for me before anything else is broached. now look, thats simply MY OPINION, you need not agree with it, and i don't need to dress my opinion up for you in ways that you find easy to digest.

this whole thread sub-topic reminds me of the groom asking the best man, "you think she's pretty right?" ...and the best man basically had better say "YES!" or else, ...when the truth is more "why do you care what i think? she is if you think she is!" (which usually means, HELL NO >; )

snarlydwarf
2009-10-09, 11:53
this whole thread sub-topic reminds me of the groom asking the best man, "you think she's pretty right?" ...and the best man basically had better say "YES!" or else, ...when the truth is more "why do you care what i think? she is if you think she is!" (which usually means, HELL NO >; )

No, it is more like someone repeating over and over, "the bride is ugly, and you need to have your head examined if you think otherwise. I'm not going to marry her, so I don't know why you care what I think, but she is still ugly and you should marry that woman over there since she is prettier"

MrSinatra
2009-10-09, 11:54
well said snarly, just what i was thinking! ;)

MeSue
2009-10-09, 12:25
then get a SBC, (unless redness is that important to you). :)

SBC is no good for poolside. :p

I guess you'd be horrified to know that I used my SB2 with PC speakers for 3 years until the Boom beta.

Oh well... I need my head examined according to you, but at least mine is not as hard as granite! ;)

funkstar
2009-10-09, 12:27
now look, thats simply MY OPINION, you need not agree with it, and i don't need to dress my opinion up for you in ways that you find easy to digest.
And that's fine, just don't be rude about the thousands of people that will buy and love this simply because they (obviously) don't share your opinion :)

MrSinatra
2009-10-09, 12:48
SBC is no good for poolside. :p

I guess you'd be horrified to know that I used my SB2 with PC speakers for 3 years until the Boom beta.

Oh well... I need my head examined according to you, but at least mine is not as hard as granite! ;)

ouch! that smarts... :) tell me, if the boom had a battery, what would be poolside? (and i've heard some good pc speakers, i'm no audiophile snob, i just draw a line at mono/stereo re:music)

Siduhe
2009-10-09, 12:49
i'm just amazed that with so many audiophile people here, or at least people who want high quality music reproduction at acceptable prices (which is why i got my SB2 all those years ago, it certainly wasn't the software!) ...that these same quality sound oriented people happily settle for a mono client.

I haven't read the whole thread, so may have missed this - but I don't think any of them are. What they're saying is that there's a definite market for the Radio, for people who have a different view (parents, other halves, ipod gen for example).

I can't help but think we're disagreeing yet saying pretty much the same thing. ;-)

pfarrell
2009-10-09, 13:00
Siduhe wrote:
> MrSinatra;469789 Wrote:
>> [elided]

> I can't help but think we're disagreeing yet saying pretty much the
> same thing. ;-)

Sinatra is almost always rude and often posts just to say so. This is
normally the definition of a troll.

Do not feed the trolls.

All early Hi-Fi systems were mono, the hobby started long before stereo
was marketed. Early Beatles and Rolling Stones albums were mono.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

snarlydwarf
2009-10-09, 13:03
well said snarly, just what i was thinking! ;)

Really? Because if you said that at my wedding, you'd be punched in the face.

cf Title of this thread.

MeSue
2009-10-09, 13:06
tell me, if the boom had a battery, what would be poolside?

I'd still use the Radio poolside. It's lighter, it has a proper carrying handle, it's easier to see the time, and it's loud enough even over the splashing and filter pump noise. I can't imagine how heavy the boom would be with a battery. Without one it is already heavier than a Radio with battery.

Until I tried it, I did not think Radio would be loud enough or the screen visible enough, but it's better. And I haven't dropped it, which I can't say about the Boom!

MrSinatra
2009-10-09, 13:19
Siduhe wrote:
> MrSinatra;469789 Wrote:
>> [elided]

> I can't help but think we're disagreeing yet saying pretty much the
> same thing. ;-)

Sinatra is almost always rude and often posts just to say so. This is
normally the definition of a troll.

Do not feed the trolls.

All early Hi-Fi systems were mono, the hobby started long before stereo
was marketed. Early Beatles and Rolling Stones albums were mono.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

Pat Farrell ladies and gentleman, mr.congeniaity! how many threads have i seen you be rude and downright mean to people??? your intellectual superiority complex dwarfs the pentagon. that guys like you and snarly are so sensitive is ridiculous, not to mention hypocritical. all i did was answer the questions asked of me, and when my opinions were stridently challenged, i stridently defended them. TS if you don't like it.

ps. i love your hat.

MrSinatra
2009-10-09, 13:21
Really? Because if you said that at my wedding, you'd be punched in the face.

cf Title of this thread.

and he thinks he's the civil one! how cowardly can you get? (i'll happily PM you my address, come here and show me how tough you are)

snarlydwarf
2009-10-09, 13:25
and he thinks he's the civil one! how cowardly can you get? (i'll happily PM you my address, come here and show me how tough you are)

oh, Lord.

It is not about being "tough". It is about being rude.

Back into the killfile you go.

MrSinatra
2009-10-09, 13:26
All early Hi-Fi systems were mono, the hobby started long before stereo
was marketed. Early Beatles and Rolling Stones albums were mono.

i already stated i have no beef with mono sources, thats not the issue. but even mono sources would sound better on the boom, as all here have agreed isn't even controersial to suggest.

the main problem, from my pov, as i've said repeatedly now, is with stereo sources on the sbradio. when it comes to mono sources on it, its more suitable, but would still lack the booms range.

mherger
2009-10-09, 13:28
> snarlydwarf;469843 Wrote:
>> Really? Because if you said that at my wedding, you'd be punched in the
>> face.
>>
>> cf Title of this thread.
>
> and he thinks he's the civil one! how cowardly can you get? (i'll
> happily PM you my address, come here and show me how tough you are)

Oh boy... please do so and stop this stupid discussion. No need to reply
to this posting. You can send me a mail if you want. But please don't
respond here. Thanks.

MrSinatra
2009-10-09, 13:28
oh, Lord.

It is not about being "tough". It is about being rude.

Back into the killfile you go.

right, and saying you'd punch me in the face isn't rude? oh well, at least i'm married.

morris_minor
2009-10-10, 03:20
I can't be the only one thinking this thread has run its course, can I?

Can't everyone agree that people's needs/wants are different? I seem to infer from MrSinatra's comments that I shouldn't want to listen to any other Squeeze device since I've got a Transporter - after all everything else would be inferior.

However, had the Radio been available when I bought my Boom for the kitchen I would have gone for the Radio since stereo imaging when I'm cooking is not high on my list of priorities; decent enough sound to let me hear my music is all I was after.

If you think I, and others who have/want a Radio silly - then fine. Let's agree to differ and move on - PLEASE!

WustrowO
2009-10-10, 10:48
That's your specific example? At the time I'm looking at the SN/MSB forum the top 3 threads, and many of those below, have absolutely nothing to do with the upgrade to 7.4. If you can't be bothered even to cite a specific example around which one can have a constructive dialogue then I think I'm done with this conversation.

My mistake - I thought you'd really care and read for yourself. ;)

So here are some specific examples of MySB bugs:

* Shoutcast streams are empty using the "web remote" (can only be started on the SB itself)
* SkyFM premium streams can not be started from "web remote" or SB
* RSS Feeds can't be configured
* Podcasts got lost in some cases
* Login problems to MySB in some cases
*...

After the change from Squeezenetwork to MySB there was another bug which made it impossbile to start most or even all favorites if one of the favorites contained special characters. This has been repaired now.

Specific enough?

Richie
2009-10-10, 11:56
* SkyFM premium streams can not be started from "web remote" or SB


DI.fm premium works fine from my Squeezebox and Boom. I can't see why SkyFM should be any different. I'm not sure what you mean by "web remote". Do you mean the Squeezebox Server web interface or mysqueezebox.com?

Richard

toby10
2009-10-10, 12:31
DI.fm premium works fine from my Squeezebox and Boom. I can't see why SkyFM should be any different. I'm not sure what you mean by "web remote". Do you mean the Squeezebox Server web interface or mysqueezebox.com?

Richard

He means the "Remote Control" on MySB to control playback to the players.
The ShoutCast listing of streams just comes up empty.

WustrowO
2009-10-10, 13:13
That's what I mean, thank you.

WustrowO
2009-10-10, 13:15
DI.fm premium works fine from my Squeezebox and Boom. I can't see why SkyFM should be any different.

Richard

Do you use MySB or SBS?

Richie
2009-10-10, 23:44
Do you use MySB or SBS?

I installed the app on MySB where I entered my login information. The app then appears in SBS and I can play the premium stations using the SBS web interface or using the remote control. I haven't tried just being connected to MySB on it's own.

Richard

WustrowO
2009-10-11, 07:44
That's the point. The SkyFM App will not run if you connect to MySB instead of SBS.

toby10
2009-10-11, 08:20
Yeah, MySB is badly screwed up today. 75% of the Remote Control listings don't work and selecting stations by player is the same.
But all work fine on SBS.

Richie
2009-10-11, 10:05
You're right, I tried it on mine today. Sorry for any confusion.

Richard

aubuti
2009-10-11, 19:41
So here are some specific examples of MySB bugs:

* Shoutcast streams are empty using the "web remote" (can only be started on the SB itself)
* SkyFM premium streams can not be started from "web remote" or SB
* RSS Feeds can't be configured
* Podcasts got lost in some cases
* Login problems to MySB in some cases
*...

Thanks for some specifics. No doubt these are bugs and I presume that bugs have been filed for them in bugs.slimdevices.com. But getting back to your original point, it still seems way over the top (to me) for Logitech to do what you suggest, which is to expend significant resources running *both* SN and MSB because of these bugs, especially when 2 of the 5 examples work fine on MSB for many users. The time spent maintaining a parallel service will subtract from the time available fixing the bugs in the new service.

Goodsounds
2009-10-11, 20:48
No doubt these are bugs and I presume that bugs have been filed for them in bugs.slimdevices.com.

Aubuti,

Please excuse what might be a stupid question.

I see comments like this from time to time and I don't completely follow what's going on. Doesn't the company identify and track product problems on its own? I've even seen company employees making a comment like this in response to a problem someone has asked about. I'm not sure I understand why or how this is something customers are responsible for.

If this is something other companies do, I've missed it completely.

Thanks for the enlightenment.

peterw
2009-10-11, 21:03
Please excuse what might be a stupid question.

I see comments like this from time to time and I don't completely follow what's going on. Doesn't the company identify and track product problems on its own? I've even seen company employees making a comment like this in response to a problem someone has asked about. I'm not sure I understand why or how this is something customers are responsible for.

If this is something other companies do, I've missed it completely.

Are you saying you're surprised that some number of Logitech SMBU's Squeezebox bugs were reported by customers/outsiders? I'm not. I expect that a large percentage of every software vendor's bugs are reported by customers; certainly I've reported my share of bugs that the vendor had previously not been aware of, including to companies as large as Microsoft.

These forums are not an official Logitech support channel, so don't be surprised if a Logitech employee asks you to open a bug about something you report here. Logitech staff reading these forums aren't under the same obligations as, say, front-line customer service reps. This is a good thing; if Logitech staff had to file paperwork every time they perceived a problem report or enhancement request here, they'd likely simply stay away from the forums, and that would be a bad thing for Logitech and us.

aubuti
2009-10-11, 21:06
Aubuti,

Please excuse what might be a stupid question.

I see comments like this from time to time and I don't completely follow what's going on. Doesn't the company identify and track product problems on its own? I've even seen company employees making a comment like this in response to a problem someone has asked about. I'm not sure I understand why or how this is something customers are responsible for.

If this is something other companies do, I've missed it completely.

Thanks for the enlightenment.
Of course the company identifies and tracks bugs. For example, the Shoutcast bug (Bug 14546 (https://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14546)) was filed by mherger, a Logitech employee. Other times users identify bugs and file them. Regardless of who filed the bugs, employees and users are welcome to comment on fixes, submit patches, etc. Users are not *responsible* for this at all, and the vast majority will never visit or even hear of bugs.slimdevices.com. You'll note that I didn't say WustrowO should file a bug report. But for those who are interested, it is there.

This is very common in open-source software settings. It may just be an aspect of software like Mozilla/Firefox, Thunderbird, and other programs that you've never been aware of. (It's not a coincidence that the popular bug tracking software is named Bugzilla.) Public bug tracking like this may also exist in closed-source projects, although obviously the scope for participation from those outside the company is far more circumscribed.

Goodsounds
2009-10-11, 22:25
Are you saying you're surprised that some number of Logitech SMBU's Squeezebox bugs were reported by customers/outsiders? I'm not. I expect that a large percentage of every software vendor's bugs are reported by customers; certainly I've reported my share of bugs that the vendor had previously not been aware of, including to companies as large as Microsoft.

These forums are not an official Logitech support channel, so don't be surprised if a Logitech employee asks you to open a bug about something you report here. Logitech staff reading these forums aren't under the same obligations as, say, front-line customer service reps. This is a good thing; if Logitech staff had to file paperwork every time they perceived a problem report or enhancement request here, they'd likely simply stay away from the forums, and that would be a bad thing for Logitech and us.

Thanks, your and Aubuti's comments partially filled in the blanks.

I understand that product problems often come from customers, and I understand the difference between a forum and a support channel. It's more the many times I've read an employee tell someone "make sure you report this in the system" that I found odd.

It was almost as if the person was saying "I could care less and I'm not going to do anything about it, if it matters to you, you need to act on it". It seemed dismissive to me, and perhaps bordering on rude (there's the tie in to the thread). I guess maybe that's not intended.

Thanks again.

funkstar
2009-10-12, 02:18
I understand that product problems often come from customers, and I understand the difference between a forum and a support channel. It's more the many times I've read an employee tell someone "make sure you report this in the system" that I found odd.
Look at it another way, by quickly asking the OP to report the issue, it reduces the amount of time a logitech developer would spend entering the reports himself.

Also, who better to write up the summary than the person actually experiencing the issue? :)

Howard Passman
2009-10-12, 02:22
Look at it another way, by quickly asking the OP to report the issue, it reduces the amount of time a logitech developer would spend entering the reports himself.

Also, who better to write up the summary than the person actually experiencing the issue? :)

Plus some companies doen't put as much weight behind an employee suggestion, complaint or report as they do a customers.

Howard

aubuti
2009-10-12, 04:53
Thanks, your and Aubuti's comments partially filled in the blanks.

I understand that product problems often come from customers, and I understand the difference between a forum and a support channel. It's more the many times I've read an employee tell someone "make sure you report this in the system" that I found odd.

It was almost as if the person was saying "I could care less and I'm not going to do anything about it, if it matters to you, you need to act on it". It seemed dismissive to me, and perhaps bordering on rude (there's the tie in to the thread). I guess maybe that's not intended.

Thanks again.
I can see how one would take it that way. But I think it's often (usually?) the case that the developers need more complete information to replicate the bug, because replication is usually the first step in debugging. Given the heterogeneous combinations of OSs, networks, etc detailed information about the environment in which the bug occurs is essential.

They could go through that dialog on the forum, but putting it in the official bug database (bugs.slimdevices.com) ensures that the report won't simply get lost in the forums.

DotSystem
2009-10-12, 07:15
Once a large number of bugs exist, a strategy can be used (or not) to resolve them unless resources exist to fix them all within a reasonable amount of time. It could be FIFO, ascending level of effort, squeaky wheel/vote, product centric (e.g.,fix all reported Duet issues) or focused on core functionality/features. I have listed these approaches in the reverse order of how I believe they impact customer perception of the software. A weighted approach could be taken such as 80% core functionality/ 20% low level of effort.

If a bug sits unresolved long enough, it can be rationalized as unneccessary to fix because users have lived so long with it. When debugging a new release, goals can be set such as 70% of new bugs resolved prior to release or 100% of critical bugs resolved prior to release. If the 70% resolved are easy bugs or the critcal bugs are mis-characterised, well...

Regression testing helps discover when fixing a bug has side effects. When a fix to a bug gives rise to another, the bug count does not diminish.

WustrowO
2009-10-12, 12:28
Thanks for some specifics. No doubt these are bugs and I presume that bugs have been filed for them in bugs.slimdevices.com. But getting back to your original point, it still seems way over the top (to me) for Logitech to do what you suggest, which is to expend significant resources running *both* SN and MSB because of these bugs, especially when 2 of the 5 examples work fine on MSB for many users. The time spent maintaining a parallel service will subtract from the time available fixing the bugs in the new service.

You might prove for yourself, which bugs are bugs ;)

A normal user shouldn't be forced to file technical bug report forms, but call the support in case of problems. Unfortunately, the support lines react very slowly at the moment (or don't react at all). So many people end up here... IMHO the Logitech employees in this forum are responsible for the customer reports here and should decide by themselves if a bug report is useful/necessary or other ways of providing help are more promising. I'm quite sure that many people here disagree with my point of view. But did you ever fill in a bug report for your DVD player or similar devices?

But to get back to my suggestion: The listed problems did't exist with Squeezenetwork. You're probably right that it's more complicated to maintain 2 services. On the other hand, no problems would have emerged for the users of the "old" platform. But it's just a suggestion and it would have been even better to provide MySB without bugs. ;)

Goodsounds
2009-10-12, 13:10
A normal user shouldn't be forced to file technical bug report forms, but call the support in case of problems. Unfortunately, the support lines react very slowly at the moment (or don't react at all). So many people end up here... IMHO the Logitech employees in this forum are responsible for the customer reports here and should decide by themselves if a bug report is useful/necessary or other ways of providing help are more promising. I'm quite sure that many people here disagree with my point of view. But did you ever fill in a bug report for your DVD player or similar devices?



This comment makes more sense to me than the others on this issue.

aubuti
2009-10-12, 14:08
You might prove for yourself, which bugs are bugs ;)

A normal user shouldn't be forced to file technical bug report forms, but call the support in case of problems. Unfortunately, the support lines react very slowly at the moment (or don't react at all). So many people end up here... IMHO the Logitech employees in this forum are responsible for the customer reports here and should decide by themselves if a bug report is useful/necessary or other ways of providing help are more promising. I'm quite sure that many people here disagree with my point of view. But did you ever fill in a bug report for your DVD player or similar devices?

But to get back to my suggestion: The listed problems did't exist with Squeezenetwork. You're probably right that it's more complicated to maintain 2 services. On the other hand, no problems would have emerged for the users of the "old" platform. But it's just a suggestion and it would have been even better to provide MySB without bugs. ;)
Prove to myself? Two of the five bugs you mentioned applied to me. I lost my podcasts, but was able to restore them by copying the podcast.prefs file from my system backup. Yes, a bug, but easily resolved. I also had problem with MySB login (actually with 7.4 beta a couple days before official release), and that was resolved within 24 hours via email to tech support. I don't use Shoutcast, but I looked and saw that of course you were right, and looked further to see that a Logitech employee had opened a bug report on it. I don't use RSS or SkyFM, but I trust you when you say they have bugs. If you don't think "normal users" should file bug reports, why do you think normal users should "prove" bugs that don't affect them?

The comparison to a DVD player is off the mark because SBs and SC/SBS are completely different products from DVD players or toasters. Sometimes I do report bugs for other software products (incl Windows, Excel, Firefox), although I don't do it very often because in most cases the message appears to go into a black hole. "Normal users" are under no obligation to file bug reports. And they are free to complain as loudly as they wish. I happen to think that filing a bug report is a more constructive way to resolve bugs, but I also agree that it's not for everyone.

Philip Meyer
2009-10-12, 16:51
>Pat, you are once again completely correct. I just can't keep from
>typing sometimes especially when somebody doesn't even own and has never
>heard the product they are bashing (and they are whining about the price
>and they own a Bose Wave Radio for crying out loud).

I totally agree with iPhone's post.

Radio is great for kitchen, bathroom, small bedroom bedside cabinet. It's better than most bedside alarm clocks with mono (or even stereo) speakers that I've ever tried.

I was initially sceptical that I would find a use for Radio, since I had a Boom put to those sort of uses, and thought I'd dislike an iffy mono device. But really, it's fine. Actually, better than fine - it's great! My wife has accepted it (via setting up some presets for her) in the kitchen. She finds it easy to use, small, cute. It fits in much better for the kitchen, and we don't miss the stereo imaging.

It's benefits are that it is small, cheaper, has a nicer user interface, and for it's intended purpose, the sound is great.

I have a Transporter in the lounge, adjoining the kitchen which homes a Radio, which adjoins study which is home to a Boom. All players are synced together.

Obviously, the Transporter on the Hifi system sounds the best, but that's not the point. The Radio fills the gap when I move through from the Lounge to the Study via the kitchen

And the Bose Wave Radio is utterly crap for the price. My father-in-law has one, but I let him off as he's in his 80's. I can't believe someone else bought one though.

Philip Meyer
2009-10-12, 16:59
>if one gets the battery too, supposedly a big selling point, then is
>the $50 saved worth it?
They also get a dedicated volume knob (oppposed to the complicated, confusing nature of the Booms dedicated volume up/down button AND sometimes the big navigation knob), and a colour LCD screen, which shows better screen info (eg. album artwork, nicer weather display, clock, etc).

It's a different kind of product - I wouldn't compare a $50 difference solely on Mono/Stereo speaker arrangement. Would you pay an extra $50 to wear a grandfather clock on your wrist because it has a better clock face?

DotSystem
2009-10-12, 17:07
You might prove for yourself, which bugs are bugs ;)
But to get back to my suggestion: The listed problems did't exist with Squeezenetwork. You're probably right that it's more complicated to maintain 2 services. On the other hand, no problems would have emerged for the users of the "old" platform. But it's just a suggestion and it would have been even better to provide MySB without bugs. ;)

This strikes me as a more of a business decision rather than a functional imperative. I don't understand why there needs to be 2 services instead of a single service that interfaces correctly with different revisons of the server and the client firmwares. There are tools and techiques available to aid the design challenge. But designing an agile service may be more upfront work than simply dumping the previous version.

jku
2009-10-14, 00:42
A normal user shouldn't be forced to file technical bug report forms, but call the support in case of problems.

User support and issue tracking are for different things -- the user might not be able to tell one from the other, but there is a difference. No-one is ever forced to file a report, but doing so will without doubt make your bug easier to fix. That is just a fact of life, not a decision developers are making.


IMHO the Logitech employees in this forum are responsible for the customer reports here and should decide by themselves if a bug report is useful/necessary or other ways of providing help are more promising. I'm quite sure that many people here disagree with my point of view. But did you ever fill in a bug report for your DVD player or similar devices?

As a developer (not related to Logitech) I thought I could tell you how useful hear-say bug reports usually are: not useful at all. You need to be able to efficiently ask for more information from the original reporter. This is true with internal QA departments and "user bug reports". If the developer does not have direct access to the problem, it will be more difficult to fix, sometimes impossible.

As to your question: I've filed bug reports and left feedback on typical consumer electronics and _never_ heard of those reports again. Feel free to connect the dots with what I said above and the bug reporting procedures the consumer electronics industry typically uses...

maggior
2009-10-14, 06:54
But did you ever fill in a bug report for your DVD player or similar devices?


Have you ever tried to call tech support for your DVD player? If it even exists, I'm sure it would be even slower than Logitech support at the moment.

In general, support is where companies have cut costs over the last 10 years or so. Where I used to work, we provided free support (configuration and application development) for all of our products. Sadly, this was eventually replaced with a fee based service and a web site. A lot of effort was put in place to ensure that the web site had lots of information to allow folks to solve their own problems, but if you didn't find what you needed or didn't have the time to scour the website, you had to pull out your credit card.

It is actually empowering that you can submit your own bug reports here. Ever find a bug in your DVD player that was fixed based on a report you submitted? That will NEVER happen. However, it's happened to me at least 2 times here.

Sure, it isn't the ideal sitation, but it certainly could be much worse. Imagine if you couldn't submit a bug report or the forums here weren't as helpful as they are (both from Logitech employees and users)? That would really be a miserable situation.

SteveEast
2009-10-14, 07:57
Ever find a bug in your DVD player that was fixed based on a report you submitted? That will NEVER happen.

Strangely enough, it does happen - but it's the exception rather than the rule. The Oppo DVD players have always had excellent support with frequent firmware updates fixing bugs and adding features.

Steve.

Phil Leigh
2009-10-14, 08:38
Strangely enough, it does happen - but it's the exception rather than the rule. The Oppo DVD players have always had excellent support with frequent firmware updates fixing bugs and adding features.

Steve.

But Oppo aren't Sony...

Ben Sandee
2009-10-14, 08:48
On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Phil Leigh
<Phil.Leigh.401z8n1255534801 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
> SteveEast;472135 Wrote:
>> Strangely enough, it does happen - but it's the exception rather than
>> the rule. The Oppo DVD players have always had excellent support with
>> frequent firmware updates fixing bugs and adding features.
>>
>> Steve.
>
> But Oppo aren't Sony...
>

Not only that, but they don't appear to have any community-driven
forums or alternative support mechanisms...

Ben

Nonreality
2009-10-14, 16:45
Thanks, your and Aubuti's comments partially filled in the blanks.

I understand that product problems often come from customers, and I understand the difference between a forum and a support channel. It's more the many times I've read an employee tell someone "make sure you report this in the system" that I found odd.

It was almost as if the person was saying "I could care less and I'm not going to do anything about it, if it matters to you, you need to act on it". It seemed dismissive to me, and perhaps bordering on rude (there's the tie in to the thread). I guess maybe that's not intended.

Thanks again.
I used to think that too, Goodsounds. Then I realized that it was probably due to either the employee not being responsible for that type of problem or that they were reading the forum on their own time and not in a position to detail it out for others. It made sense then to me that they would want to make sure it got made aware of to the correct people that needed to see it and also having it come straight from the person having the problem and not having things lost in translation by a second party. But I can also see that for a lot of people filing a bug report can be a bit intimidating. It is a bit confusing on saving your bug report. I also know that sometimes I feel that someone else has probably already filed it and I wonder if I'm creating a mess by filing it again. Not sure how that works.

MrSinatra
2009-10-14, 17:39
imo its ok to suggest to the forum poster to post it to bugzilla, (and some help pointing them to it or the thread explaining it should be the default) but there are clearly cases where thats simply not going to happen and yet a true bug has been reported and seen by an employee.

in those cases, imo, the employee has a responsibility to follow up to see what became of it and file it if need be.

yes, its great that this forum and bugzilla is available to us all, but lets not lose the big picture. the collective feedback, which is uncompensated in any direct way, is to their business interests and benefit. again, imo, we do them more of a favor than they do us, and as such, they shouldn't be so reluctant to file bugs or whatever on what they see here, esp if the person isn't going to. they are getting paid afterall.

DotSystem
2009-10-14, 18:13
On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Phil Leigh
<Phil.Leigh.401z8n1255534801 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
> SteveEast;472135 Wrote:
>> Strangely enough, it does happen - but it's the exception rather than
>> the rule. The Oppo DVD players have always had excellent support with
>> frequent firmware updates fixing bugs and adding features.
>>
>> Steve.
>
> But Oppo aren't Sony...
>

Not only that, but they don't appear to have any community-driven
forums or alternative support mechanisms...

Ben

This might qualify:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1124287

peterw
2009-10-14, 18:40
The Oppo DVD players have always had excellent support with frequent firmware updates fixing bugs and adding features.

Nice to know. I've been growing tired of our old Toshiba's firmware limitations & stupidity. This looks like a great replacement!

Nonreality
2009-10-14, 19:21
imo its ok to suggest to the forum poster to post it to bugzilla, (and some help pointing them to it or the thread explaining it should be the default) but there are clearly cases where thats simply not going to happen and yet a true bug has been reported and seen by an employee.

in those cases, imo, the employee has a responsibility to follow up to see what became of it and file it if need be.

yes, its great that this forum and bugzilla is available to us all, but lets not lose the big picture. the collective feedback, which is uncompensated in any direct way, is to their business interests and benefit. again, imo, we do them more of a favor than they do us, and as such, they shouldn't be so reluctant to file bugs or whatever on what they see here, esp if the person isn't going to. they are getting paid afterall.

In some cases I do agree with you my friend but I'm sure sometimes they are off the clock and just reading the threads. If this was an official support forum I would agree wholeheartly but I now don't see anything wrong with making sure it gets into bugzilla by having the person with the problem explain it themselves to make sure it gets presented correctly. You are also right that the employee should probably make a note and see if it was reported in the case of more serious bugs.

maggior
2009-10-14, 19:48
yes, its great that this forum and bugzilla is available to us all, but lets not lose the big picture. the collective feedback, which is uncompensated in any direct way, is to their business interests and benefit. again, imo, we do them more of a favor than they do us, and as such, they shouldn't be so reluctant to file bugs or whatever on what they see here, esp if the person isn't going to. they are getting paid afterall.

My feedback has been directly compensated with a bug fix 2 times that I can recall. That's really good compensation as far as I'm concerned. We, as users, are self serving as well - we submit bug reports to have problems that bother us fixed. It cuts both ways.

I've seen a number of cases where a Logitech employee (Dean and Michael Herger come to mind) has created a bugzilla report based on findings discussed in a thread here. That always impressed me.

Nonreality
2009-10-14, 22:05
My feedback has been directly compensated with a bug fix 2 times that I can recall. That's really good compensation as far as I'm concerned. We, as users, are self serving as well - we submit bug reports to have problems that bother us fixed. It cuts both ways.

I've seen a number of cases where a Logitech employee (Dean and Michael Herger come to mind) has created a bugzilla report based on findings discussed in a thread here. That always impressed me.
The new Alice in Chains album sounds great on first listen. I hope the concert if you go to it will be great. I was fortunate to see them twice in very small venues when they released Dirt and both were quite an experience. The first one I was concerned with my life because a local strip clubs women decided to go on stage unknown to the band and strip which whipped the audience into a frenzy, and the second I thought maybe the police might start beating people because the lead singer started a diatribe against them because they sold too many tickets and were not letting people in that had paid. He had shot up with heroin a few times before the concert and was flying very high. It looked like he could hardly stand as he unloaded on the cops but once the concert started he was all there. I know this because a local dj that I knew was with them backstage. They were a very volatile band but also a very good one. This was in Spokane and Moscow and both were excellent concerts but kind of nerve racking. But it made both two great experiences. :)

jku
2009-10-15, 02:06
imo its ok to suggest to the forum poster to post it to bugzilla, (and some help pointing them to it or the thread explaining it should be the default) but there are clearly cases where thats simply not going to happen and yet a true bug has been reported and seen by an employee.

in those cases, imo, the employee has a responsibility to follow up to see what became of it and file it if need be.

Like I mentioned earlier, in those cases the developer will form an impression based on the impression of the reporter who formed an impression on the forum posters impression of the problem. It's a fun variation of the Broken Telephone game...

What I'm saying is that the "returns" of a bug report diminish very fast as the quality of the report goes down (because of the broken telephone effect). There are of course bugs that really are easy to explain and reproduce, but most bugs aren't like that -- even if they seem totally obvious to the original poster.