PDA

View Full Version : Wall-Mount Bracket at $99.99 ?



sveinan
2009-09-18, 06:11
I am probably going to add the Touch to my existing SqueezeBox setup when it gets available. In my setup it would be mounted to a wall. Looking at this other thread (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=67420) I was happy to see some pictures of some official looking wall mount. Then after searching a little I get to the bottom of the press release (http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/172/6222&cl=us,en):

Pricing and Availability
...
The Logitech Squeezebox Touch Wall-Mount Bracket is expected to be available in the U.S. and Europe beginning in December for a suggested retail price of $99.99 (U.S.).

Could someone please explain to me the magical properties of this piece of plastic that makes it worth $100(-1c) ? I just cannot understand it. Are there some connectors or electrical stuff I'm missing here ?

egd
2009-09-18, 10:33
Could someone please explain to me the magical properties of this piece of plastic that makes it worth $100(-1c) ? I just cannot understand it. Are there some connectors or electrical stuff I'm missing here ?Sure, if you pay the $100, it comes with a jar of vaseline to ease the pain :P

funkstar
2009-09-18, 10:46
Pretty sure it was supposed to be $49.99, think there is a typo in that press release.

sveinan
2009-09-18, 11:36
Sure, if you pay the $100, it comes with a jar of vaseline to ease the pain :P

Pretty sure it was supposed to be $49.99, think there is a typo in that press release.

I guess I could live with $49.99, would still need half a jar of vaseline though :p Get the final answer when it pops up in the stores anyway, or if some Logitech dude passes by this thread.

agillis
2009-09-18, 13:09
It probable cost about 2 dollars to make but they need to offset the cost of stocking something that less then %1 of touch owners will buy.

mparry
2009-09-18, 16:24
They are actually $99.99 retail.
They do look really good when they are installed:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=67420

amcluesent
2009-09-18, 21:05
>They are actually $99.99 retail. <

That sort of shameless price gouging would never have been considered at Slimdevices before the takeover. Sends all the wrong messages.

jdoering
2009-09-18, 22:12
They do look great; but I don't think I'd ever appreciate it after the guilt I'd feel every time I thought about the price. OUCH.

Unless there's a lot more to it than the picture suggests; it should be $20. $40-50 I could probably live with but I'd feel it was overpriced - maybe marginally worth it. But $100!!!!

I don't mind paying for cutting edge and niche; but I don't like getting screwed. I'd be amazed if the backend math actually justified a price anywhere in that realm even with a generous margin. But who knows maybe they're hand crafted in high mountains of Tibet by sacred monks or something.

sveinan
2009-09-19, 02:05
They are actually $99.99 retail.
They do look really good when they are installed:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=67420
Yup. Thats the thread I referred to, and is actually why I'm looking into the Touch at all. But unless those $99.99 includes a great looking lady, or lad if preferred, that does a competent job of cabling and mounting it all. I do not think $99.99 justifies great looking plastic.



But who knows maybe they're hand crafted in high mountains of Tibet by sacred monks or something.
Actually. It may be that MonsterCable have blessed each mount with one of their sacred cables. That would explain a lot. If only dreams came true (sigh). Think of the great high-definition properties this plastic would exhibit. I think I'll take two if this was confirmed.


A little more serious. Since $100$(-1c) is now confirmed as price. I guess I'll have to look into how easy it is rig something myself. Worst part is, the price I could afford. The feeling of being ripped off is unfortunately priceless. So unless Logitech can illustrate and justify how they get to $99.99 in production, logistics, storage and distribution process, I'm off to be creative find a workable do-it-yourself solution. Which ironically is probably going to cost me more in work-hours than $99.99.

Mnyb
2009-09-19, 02:46
Yup. Thats the thread I referred to, and is actually why I'm looking into the Touch at all. But unless those $99.99 includes a great looking lady, or lad if preferred, that does a competent job of cabling and mounting it all. I do not think $99.99 justifies great looking plastic.



Actually. It may be that MonsterCable have blessed each mount with one of their sacred cables. That would explain a lot. If only dreams came true (sigh). Think of the great high-definition properties this plastic would exhibit. I think I'll take two if this was confirmed.


A little more serious. Since $100$(-1c) is now confirmed as price. I guess I'll have to look into how easy it is rig something myself. Worst part is, the price I could afford. The feeling of being ripped off is unfortunately priceless. So unless Logitech can illustrate and justify how they get to $99.99 in production, logistics, storage and distribution process, I'm off to be creative find a workable do-it-yourself solution. Which ironically is probably going to cost me more in work-hours than $99.99.

Buy one and use it as a template and cast your own in plastic brass or aluminum and ebay them at 50$ to the forum or CNC mill them out of solid hardwood like ivory ;)

On the moral account bad+bad=good ;)

Teus de Jong
2009-09-19, 02:49
They are actually $99.99 retail. ...

I just don't believe it. People at sales can be weird, but in general they're not totally mad.

Teus

Mnyb
2009-09-19, 02:55
I just don't believe it. People at sales can be weird, but in general they're not totally mad.

Teus

ROFL imagine the EU prices €€€€€ and ££££ cu later :)
this is really funny

sebp
2009-09-19, 08:26
It probable cost about 2 dollars to make but they need to offset the cost of stocking something that less then %1 of touch owners will buy.
In which case they'd better have shipped one with each Touch, even if less than 1% of Touch owners would ever use it...

iPhone
2009-09-19, 11:24
The Boom bracket looks labor intensive, is all metal, is drilled, looks powered coated, and contains all the metal mounting hardware and sells for 20 bucks! The Touch bracket looks like it could be done on a standard molding machine running off hundreds at little to no cost after the mold is designed and made.

Is this bracket UL listed or something? Because if it isn't then it reminds of an Ethernet cable that Denon sells.

Don't understand this pricing if it's actual correct.

peterw
2009-09-19, 12:28
The Touch bracket looks like it could be done on a standard molding machine running off hundreds at little to no cost after the mold is designed and made.

Remember the purple plugs for Garmin GPS units? http://www.pfranc.com/projects/g45contr/g45_idx.htm If Logitech asks far too much, anybody could design & sell an alternative...

amcluesent
2009-09-19, 12:38
The factory gate price of the wall-mount is likely the same as the plastic animal that slimdevices used to throw in the box.

iPhone
2009-09-19, 20:22
Remember the purple plugs for Garmin GPS units? http://www.pfranc.com/projects/g45contr/g45_idx.htm If Logitech asks far too much, anybody could design & sell an alternative...

Good Point Peter. If the Touch ends up being as popular as I think it will be, we will have to see what happens.

I have many accessories for my Garmin GPS as well as multiple vehicle setups so I only have to move the unit. Went to buy a cable to power and hook into the laptop and almost fainted. So I found a guy on the Internet that made a mold and cable for himself and just started making and selling them out of his basement. Personally, I think the basement made cable is of better quality then the factory made cable and the basement cable combo is a third the cost.

autopilot
2009-09-20, 04:42
They are actually $99.99 retail.
They do look really good when they are installed:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=67420

It's a simple single piece of moulded plastic. I have one right here, it could be made for less than a dollar. I can't understand it, even it they are made to order in limited qualities, that price is absolutely crazy. For the price of two of these i could by a Squeezebox radio, and that's had a lot more development costs too.

BastiaanR
2009-09-20, 15:09
$99,99 is ludicrous. And $49,99 is merely ridiculous. It's just a bit of plastic... For $1,99 it's well paid for, IMHO.

Goodsounds
2009-09-20, 16:32
It's a simple single piece of moulded plastic. I have one right here, it could be made for less than a dollar. I can't understand it,

With this and other comments, I'll bet that the company's "Beta Testers We Like" list ends the day minus a few names it started the day with. ;-)

peterw
2009-09-20, 19:07
With this and other comments, I'll bet that the company's "Beta Testers We Like" list ends the day minus a few names it started the day with. ;-)

Perhaps, but Logitech has always said that it chose beta participants it thought would give honest feedback & criticism, and never in any way has it encouraged beta testers to cover up any problems once the NDAs lifted, at least in my experience.

I don't think Logitech has much to fear from the forums. Compare a Touch + wallmount to common home automation touchscreens costing a bunch more. Touch + wallmount is still a great buy, and Logitech will probably sell boatloads of wallmount adapters both directly to end users and through A/V and home automation customizers. Sure, they'll probably lose some sales to the relatively few customers who tend to own soldering irons and RJ45 crimping tools (and lose more sales at $100 than at $50), but I don't think they'll be hurting.

Goodsounds
2009-09-20, 20:51
..chose beta participants it thought would give honest feedback & criticism...

You would know better than I, but are you saying that the company has asked for/encouraged critical comments in public from product testers on pricing and market positioning decisions on unreleased products? I can't imagine that, but you tell me if that's the case.

aubuti
2009-09-20, 21:49
You would know better than I, but are you saying that the company has asked for/encouraged critical comments in public from product testers on pricing and market positioning decisions on unreleased products? I can't imagine that, but you tell me if that's the case.
No, but they've never been known to penalize anyone for speaking out, or try to muzzle anyone either. From your smiley in post #20 I assume it was meant as a joke, and that sounds about right.

gorman
2009-09-21, 01:09
They are actually $99.99 retail.
They do look really good when they are installed:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=67420For a piece of plastic? They look really good as they disappear. There's no design worth mentioning, it's just an adapter.

Or are you telling me that a *rounded frame* can have as its main selling point the fact that it looks "really good"?

This is the *worst* case of price gouging I've witnessed in my whole life. And considering I've worked in videogames media I've seen my share.

Shame on Logitech. *two thumbs down*

But then... I went and looked at the accessories page. How can the Boom bracket be 19.99 and this 99.99? There must be a mistake, come on!

autopilot
2009-09-21, 02:21
With this and other comments, I'll bet that the company's "Beta Testers We Like" list ends the day minus a few names it started the day with. ;-)

LOL. If the beta test group was to only consist of people who never made any criticism, there wouldn't be anyone left on the beta test at all. I have spent a large amount of my own personal time to provide honest and constructive feedback. Much of Slim Devices/Logitech success was built on feedback from the beta and non-beta community. If that was to stop, and we beta testers were asked to only post positive praise and silence any criticism, well then i would not want to be a beta tester anyway. But that's not the case.

toby10
2009-09-21, 05:35
LOL. If the beta test group was to only consist of people who never made any criticism, there wouldn't be anyone left on the beta test at all. I have spent a large amount of my own personal time to provide honest and constructive feedback. Much of Slim Devices/Logitech success was built on feedback from the beta and non-beta community. If that was to stop, and we beta testers were asked to only post positive praise and silence any criticism, well then i would not want to be a beta tester anyway. But that's not the case.

+1 :)

And they seem quite interested in getting a very broad cross section of beta testers as well. From the "power users" who write code and know computers/software/networking/internet/audio codecs/etc.... to the "plug and play" FAR less tech savvy users (like myself) to get more of a beginners/first time users feedback.

Critical feedback, techy or beginner, is needed to put out a product that will suit both types of users.

funkstar
2009-09-21, 05:42
I don't think Logitech has much to fear from the forums. Compare a Touch + wallmount to common home automation touchscreens costing a bunch more. Touch + wallmount is still a great buy, and Logitech will probably sell boatloads of wallmount adapters both directly to end users and through A/V and home automation customizers. Sure, they'll probably lose some sales to the relatively few customers who tend to own soldering irons and RJ45 crimping tools (and lose more sales at $100 than at $50), but I don't think they'll be hurting.
Really good points there Peter, I hadn't looked at it that way before.

And you are right, pricing it at $100 will probably net them more money from installers than pricing it at $20.

If someone happens to make a replica or compatible version, I wouldn't have though the developers would have much of a problem with that. Especially when you look at how Vortexbox and iPeng has been encouraged by the team.

sveinan
2009-09-21, 07:00
I don't think Logitech has much to fear from the forums. Compare a Touch + wallmount to common home automation touchscreens costing a bunch more. Touch + wallmount is still a great buy, and Logitech will probably sell boatloads of wallmount adapters both directly to end users and through A/V and home automation customizers. Sure, they'll probably lose some sales to the relatively few customers who tend to own soldering irons and RJ45 crimping tools (and lose more sales at $100 than at $50), but I don't think they'll be hurting.And you are right, pricing it at $100 will probably net them more money from installers than pricing it at $20.
I agree that this angle might explain the mindset behind the pricing. And yes, isolated, it may net them more money. Compared to a more reasonable/sane price.

But I do hope the brains behind this pricing have taken into account the overall ramifications this may have. For now the negative reactions are limited to a few souls on this forum. But if this somehow gets an ironic angled article on one of the big blogs/tech sites. Is it worth the negative publicity?

Is it too farfetched to think that this choice in pricing will make people speculate on what choices are made behind the scenes? If they are taking $99.99 for this plastic. What choices are made for the quality of components inside the new Squeezebox products? That choice is always on a sliding scale. You have price point for your product in the marked. What components do you put inside, quality vs. profit? Whose ideology is gaining?

I am not saying they are compromising yet. But they are certainly setting themselves up as targets for speculations with this behavior.

For the record. I do like my Squeezebox products :) I want to continue expanding my usage of them. I still recommend them to friends. It is just that this price got on my wrong side :( Unless Logitech still has a good explanation up its sleeve.

funkstar
2009-09-21, 13:44
Is it too farfetched to think that this choice in pricing will make people speculate on what choices are made behind the scenes? If they are taking $99.99 for this plastic. What choices are made for the quality of components inside the new Squeezebox products? That choice is always on a sliding scale. You have price point for your product in the marked. What components do you put inside, quality vs. profit? Whose ideology is gaining?
If you use that same argument, where are the questions about the quality of Denon parts after they released that over priced braided cat5 cable? :)

sveinan
2009-09-21, 14:57
Is it too farfetched to think that this choice in pricing will make people speculate on what choices are made behind the scenes? If they are taking $99.99 for this plastic. What choices are made for the quality of components inside the new Squeezebox products? That choice is always on a sliding scale. You have price point for your product in the marked. What components do you put inside, quality vs. profit? Whose ideology is gaining?
If you use that same argument, where are the questions about the quality of Denon parts after they released that over priced braided cat5 cable? :)

True. I am not saying it will come to this. I certainly hope not. I want my future Squeezebox purchases, except the wall mount ;) (obviously), to give me good quality for the money I pay. And enough left (within limits) for employees, further development and shareholders (yup, them too). I hope this wall-mount is a blip on the radar. Even so, I do not intend to let it pass by without comments. As some might have noticed :rolleyes:

And I wouldn't call that cable from Denon their best move:
Wired: Snake-Oil Alert: Denon Sells ‘Audiophile’ Ethernet Cable for $500 (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2008/06/snake-oil-alert/)
Slashdot: Denon's $499 Ethernet Cable (http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/15/009216)

Need a good laugh. Read some of the reviews at Amazon:
Amazon: Customer Reviews - Denon AKDL1 Dedicated Link Cable (http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/product-reviews/B000I1X6PM/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_summary?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending)

Of course. Some subscribe to the notion that any exposure, is good exposure :)

funkstar
2009-09-21, 15:32
Of course. Some subscribe to the notion that any exposure, is good exposure :)
Absolutely, I was going to suggest that before as well :)

Those are all fairly geek news sources, probably not the target for such an accessory if Peters thoughts are close to the mark. The question is, how much do the competitors charge for a similar product? I've never looked into them, but I do get the idea that a Touch + Wall mount will still be significantly less expensive than things it is competing with, and it will kick their asses on performance and features too.

lesliew
2009-09-21, 15:33
Wired: Snake-Oil Alert: Denon Sells ‘Audiophile’ Ethernet Cable for $500 (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2008/06/snake-oil-alert/)
Slashdot: Denon's $499 Ethernet Cable (http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/15/009216)[/list]

Need a good laugh. Read some of the reviews at Amazon:
Amazon: Customer Reviews - Denon AKDL1 Dedicated Link Cable (http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/product-reviews/B000I1X6PM/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_summary?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending)

Of course. Some subscribe to the notion that any exposure, is good exposure :)


I'd love to know how many of those bad boys they've sold.

sveinan
2009-09-24, 02:58
The question is, how much do the competitors charge for a similar product? I've never looked into them, but I do get the idea that a Touch + Wall mount will still be significantly less expensive than things it is competing with, and it will kick their asses on performance and features too.

You're probably right on the Touch + Wall together. But for the fun of it, I peaked at Sonos charging cradles. Two models exists CC100 & CC200 (direct links to Sonos site):

Sonos Charging Cradle 200, with AC Adapter (CC200) - $39.99 (http://www.sonos.com/whattobuy/accessories/cc200/default.aspx) Sonos Charging Cradle 100 (CC100) - $39.99 (http://www.sonos.com/whattobuy/accessories/cc100/) AC Adapter 100 (for CC100) - $19.99 (http://www.sonos.com/whattobuy/accessories/adapter/)

From the CC100 Setup Guide (PDF) (http://www.sonos.com/uploadedFiles/Get_Support/Documentation/Sonos_Cradle_Setup_Guide.pdf), it looks to be wall mountable (not flush to wall though). The CC200 price even includes the AC adapter.

Wouldn't be hard to make a long list of other products, Logitech or not, below $100. But from my point of view, $99.99 is a rip-off (3rd degree). For now I'll leave this thread alone, unless somebody comes with a defense of Logitech keeping it $99.99. If it makes sense I'll concede defeat :o My guess is that Logitech just wants the thread to wither down in forum history. I'll let it do that if it leaves with the conclusion that this is a rip-off price, however one spins it. May ease the sour taste, if I end up buying this object :rolleyes:

Gomez
2009-09-26, 10:09
Ahhh I think these Mounts are of the Audiophile breed they have been cryogenically treated then coated in snake oil and spinkled with fairy dust. Once fitted they will not only improve the your room accoustics they will improve the quality of all of your audio components ! (maybe)

Cabe
2009-09-26, 16:25
I'm pretty sure $100 is worth it for the WAF increase.

Mnyb
2009-09-26, 16:39
I'm pretty sure $100 is worth it for the WAF increase.

But that is blackmail and extortion ;)

"Honey, now you go and get that wall-mount"

"But its 100$"

"b*llsh*t I don't believe that, your making this up"


End of discussion one 100$ wall-mount sold .

Packaging must be exquisite a mahogany box with velvet lining for 99$

egd
2009-09-26, 22:12
if you buy one at that price you're a dumbass!

jdoering
2009-09-27, 12:11
Maybe they'll MSRP it at $99 and then let retailers prices it down to $40 so we all feel like we're getting a great deal. That way installers can still quote the $99 "value" on job bids and such.

As far as WAF; I'd have to lie through my teeth about the price to convince her regardless of how nice it looks.

-Jeff

seanadams
2009-09-27, 14:29
It's a simple single piece of moulded plastic. I have one right here, it could be made for less than a dollar. I can't understand it, even it they are made to order in limited qualities, that price is absolutely crazy. For the price of two of these i could by a Squeezebox radio, and that's had a lot more development costs too.

You're actually quite wrong about the cost to produce these. From my experience getting parts like this made, I would estimate the tooling cost at no less than $25,000. Probably significantly more for the level of quality that Logitech puts into their plastics. Then add logistics, packaging, shipping and handling for a very specialized product with low volumes. The marginal cost in raw plastic material, you're right, is nearly free, but that is not where the cost to produce one of these - it's all up front. And I didn't even mention design and engineering yet - sure it's a simple part, but that work is not free either. The economies of scale, or lack thereof, are completely different from most any other plastic product that you might be comparing it to.

Does that mean it should be priced at $100? If that's too far above the gag threshold, maybe a better strategy would be for them to consider it a loss leader for selling more touches.

But they may be doing that already - they may end up taking a loss even at $100 - that depends how many they sell, but there is very little elasticity on something like this. You can't expect to sell millions of them by pricing it like any other piece of plastic.

pfarrell
2009-09-27, 15:07
seanadams wrote:
> You're actually quite wrong about the cost to produce these. From my
> experience getting parts like this made, I would estimate the tooling
> cost at no less than $25,000.

Tooling to make five probably only costs $1000, but then you have to use
plastics that a major player like Logitech would not ship to customers.
To use regular injection molding, Sean is in the right ballpark from
what I've seen.

As long as its a separate SKU, it probably costs $10 just to have it in
the inventory, even if the box is empty.

I find the tone of this whole thread to be insulting. Its a free market,
if you don't want to spend that much, don't buy it.

If a few folks want to, you could take a mould off one and use
prototyping equipment to make a few dozen or maybe a hundred.

That the incremental cost of making "one" more unit is tiny is
irrelevant. You don't think that there is $40,000 worth of materials in
that F-150 pickup truck that you just bought? Someone has to amortize
the engineering and tooling and marketing costs.

Grow up, please.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

egd
2009-09-27, 22:49
That the incremental cost of making "one" more unit is tiny is irrelevant. You don't think that there is $40,000 worth of materials in that F-150 pickup truck that you just bought? Someone has to amortize
the engineering and tooling and marketing costs.Pat, IMHO in this instance the product is ill-conceived as a standalone and would've been better off packaged as part of the Touch with an extra $50 slapped onto the Touch's price. This thread wouldn't have seen the light of day. At $100 a pop I'd be surprised if they generate enough sales to recover their sunk costs.

funkstar
2009-09-28, 02:28
Pat, IMHO in this instance the product is ill-conceived as a standalone and would've been better off packaged as part of the Touch with an extra $50 slapped onto the Touch's price. This thread wouldn't have seen the light of day. At $100 a pop I'd be surprised if they generate enough sales to recover their sunk costs.
Would they sell twice as many if it was $50?

I doubt very much if the accountants and marketing haven't been over this a dozen times, re-running the figures and sales projections.

egd
2009-09-28, 02:53
Would they sell twice as many if it was $50?

I doubt very much if the accountants and marketing haven't been over this a dozen times, re-running the figures and sales projections. I was suggesting that rather than sell separately they include it with the Touch and charge an extra $50 for the Touch, without pointing out you're actually paying $50 extra for the wallmount. Too late for that now but IMHO it would've been a better option.

Marketing and finance often fail to communicate effectively, if at all, and are often times incentivized differently, often putting them at odds. So in this case they may or may not be on the same page, who knows.

tipsen
2009-09-28, 05:35
Bundling the wall-mount with the Touch would probably not be a good idea since houses are built very differently around the world. When looking at the bracket it seems to require a hole in the wall and in a brick house this is not easy to accomplish. Though I must admit the price is a bit high for this kind of accessory but my last experience with Logitech accessories was with a spare Boom PSU for about 130-140$ so I'm really not surprised...

egd
2009-09-28, 07:01
When looking at the bracket it seems to require a hole in the wall and in a brick house this is not easy to accomplishHammer drill + masonry drillbit an bob's yer uncle.


Though I must admit the price is a bit high for this kind of accessory but my last experience with Logitech accessories was with a spare Boom PSU for about 130-140$ so I'm really not surprised...It come with Vaseline? I had to replace my Boom's PSU also, but I opted for a different supplier...and as I was not in the US it would seem I had no choice anyhow.

maggior
2009-09-28, 08:04
I was suggesting that rather than sell separately they include it with the Touch and charge an extra $50 for the Touch, without pointing out you're actually paying $50 extra for the wallmount. Too late for that now but IMHO it would've been a better option.

Marketing and finance often fail to communicate effectively, if at all, and are often times incentivized differently, often putting them at odds. So in this case they may or may not be on the same page, who knows.


I don't think it makes sense to charge an extra $50 to add something in the package that 90% or 95% of the users won't use.

dean
2009-09-28, 08:33
On Sep 28, 2009, at 5:35 AM, tipsen wrote:

> Bundling the wall-mount with the Touch would probably not be a good
> idea
> since houses are built very differently around the world.

The wall mount bracket can be used as a front face of a custom surface-
mount box on a wall in constructions where you can't break into the
wall.

That's the real value of the bracket, it's designed to fit the back
surface of the Touch perfectly so you can create a hole or a box
behind it to match the decor and/or construction.

egd
2009-09-28, 08:54
I don't think it makes sense to charge an extra $50 to add something in the package that 90% or 95% of the users won't use.

Agreed, but if they'd taken that approach you'd be none the wiser and likely pay the $50 premium.

Mnyb
2009-09-28, 09:14
Agreed, but if they'd taken that approach you'd be none the wiser and likely pay the $50 premium.

It would never had cost as much as 50$ if one was bundled in every box, probably much cheaper.

There is a lot of throw away stuff when you by anything, try a TV or an receiver, manuals in 14 languages extra antennas bunches of extra cables and stuff. Adding an extra item would not do to much to any product .

I got 4 HDMI cables with my geffen HDMI switch. I got extra phone contacts for all possible telephone standards with my ip-phone .

iPhone
2009-09-28, 09:27
Bundling the wall-mount with the Touch would probably not be a good idea since houses are built very differently around the world. When looking at the bracket it seems to require a hole in the wall and in a brick house this is not easy to accomplish. Though I must admit the price is a bit high for this kind of accessory but my last experience with Logitech accessories was with a spare Boom PSU for about 130-140$ so I'm really not surprised...

I have a brick home here in the States. Are you saying that "All" your interior walls are brick also? In any cse even if that is true, then surely your wiring outlets, phone jacks, and such are surface mount are they not?

The Touch mount could also be mounted surface mount style or just make a standoff box to mount the mount in that is similar to the box your light switches and electrical outlets must be in. And in the case that they took the time to build all the current switch boxes in while building the house, what would one do to add an extra wall outlet? Surely use an exterior wall outlet.

peterw
2009-09-28, 09:45
It would never had cost as much as 50$ if one was bundled in every box, probably much cheaper.

There is a lot of throw away stuff when you by anything, try a TV or an receiver, manuals in 14 languages extra antennas bunches of extra cables and stuff. Adding an extra item would not do to much to any product .

A while back, Sean alluded to Logitech's "green" initiatives. It's likely that Logitech would frown on including something that most customers would see as a throw away item.

egd
2009-09-28, 21:30
A while back, Sean alluded to Logitech's "green" initiatives. It's likely that Logitech would frown on including something that most customers would see as a throw away item.What, you mean like the Duet? :P

Keymaster
2009-09-29, 03:12
I was suggesting that rather than sell separately they include it with the Touch and charge an extra $50 for the Touch, without pointing out you're actually paying $50 extra for the wallmount.

So...you're saying that a 20% increase in SRP is justified due to the potential inclusion of a part that 90-95% of people will not use? I would think that it would chase away more people who were on the fence price-wise than it would entice people who wanted to use the bracket.

Pls. don't take this as a flame. I find this thread fascinating and I'm trying to get my head around it all.

Man, I wish that I'd taken more economics/marketing courses @ Uni. instead of playing darts and watching Law & Order...

toby10
2009-09-29, 04:02
So...you're saying that a 20% increase in SRP is justified due to the potential inclusion of a part that 90-95% of people will not use? I would think that it would chase away more people who were on the fence price-wise than it would entice people who wanted to use the bracket....

Completely agree. It's silly to jack the price for everyone to accommodate 10% of the users. Same argument with those that want AM/FM tuners in these SB devices (Boom & Radio). If one wants terrestrial radio (and I'd guess a very low % of other users) on a network streaming device than go buy the adapter yourself and not bother the vast majority of users with increased product cost and useless features. :)

Logitech offers a (pricey) wall mount plate. Buy it, don't buy it, build your own, do without.

Jonnio
2009-09-29, 05:57
I find the tone of this whole thread to be insulting. Its a free market,
if you don't want to spend that much, don't buy it.

If a few folks want to, you could take a mould off one and use
prototyping equipment to make a few dozen or maybe a hundred.

That the incremental cost of making "one" more unit is tiny is
irrelevant. You don't think that there is $40,000 worth of materials in
that F-150 pickup truck that you just bought? Someone has to amortize
the engineering and tooling and marketing costs.

Grow up, please.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

Pat I have to respectfully disagree with you here from the perspective of someone who spent years in manufacturing. The F-150 analagy works for a lot of the logitech products that have high startup costs and continuous labor input for manufacturering. This is not one of them, this appeArs to be a classic case of marketing deciding what they think a product can sell for based on the demographic they anticipate purchasing it and that is driving the price. Much like the aforementioned replacement costs for items that are already included in the original box.

Just look at this in comparison to the touch itself. The profit margins between the two products (from a bill of materials vs sale price perspective) is probably very similar, but I doubt the engineering cost vs sales ratios are remotely close to the same. Not to mention the continued engineering, warranty etc... Costs that the touch will incur which the bracket won't.

The part you were dead on about is that it's a free market, which is why many of the people on this thread will choose to express their displeasure by not purchasing it.

Who knows though. Maybe logitech will listen and offer a package price to reduce the cost for people who know they want both.

radish
2009-09-29, 06:16
Just look at this in comparison to the touch itself. The profit margins between the two products (from a bill of materials vs sale price perspective) is probably very similar, but I doubt the engineering cost vs sales ratios are remotely close to the same. Not to mention the continued engineering, warranty etc... Costs that the touch will incur which the bracket won't.
Maybe, but I bet they sell an awful lot more Touches than wall mounts, hence the fixed initial costs have to be spread out over fewer sales.

I'm probably not going to buy a wall mount, but for me it's not "$100 for a piece of plastic" but "$399 for a wall mounted player". Cost is related to the production expense for the manufacturer, but should only really be related to the utility for the consumer. In other words, it's not how much it cost to make but how useful it will be to you which should decide it's price.

Phil Leigh
2009-09-29, 11:05
Maybe, but I bet they sell an awful lot more Touches than wall mounts, hence the fixed initial costs have to be spread out over fewer sales.

I'm probably not going to buy a wall mount, but for me it's not "$100 for a piece of plastic" but "$399 for a wall mounted player". Cost is related to the production expense for the manufacturer, but should only really be related to the utility for the consumer. In other words, it's not how much it cost to make but how useful it will be to you which should decide it's price.

Well said - since when did the BOM have anything to do with street price? (other than street price is never lower... apart from the Bugatti Veyron...)

TiredLegs
2009-09-29, 11:32
since when did the BOM have anything to do with street price?
It did until Monster Cable came into existence. And I smell a Monster with this wall mount.

radish
2009-09-29, 12:06
It did until Monster Cable came into existence.

Really?

How much does a CD cost to press?
What's the BOM for a couple of ounces of oil paint and a square of canvas?
How about a couple of yards of fabric and some thread?
1cm2 silicon wafer and a small ceramic block?
Couple of hundred small sheets of paper and some binding?

Commodities end up being priced according to cost because of competition, but there are plenty of products for which the main cost driver is not simply raw materials. In the case where few units will be sold fixed manufacturing costs often becomes a significant factor. In other cases it's design, R&D, marketing or something else.

The thing about Monster Cable is their product really is commodity (i.e. can be interchanged with others without making a difference) but they manage to market it as otherwise. They claim you're getting more than you really are, and that the other cheaper products are inferior. I'm sure no-one here would blame you for using that other cheaper SB Touch wall mount. Oh wait.

Jonnio
2009-09-29, 13:28
Maybe, but I bet they sell an awful lot more Touches than wall mounts, hence the fixed initial costs have to be spread out over fewer sales.

In other words, it's not how much it cost to make but how useful it will be to you which should decide it's price.

The entire argument that I was combating was that the high price is justified due to the sunk costs in development of the unit. I said the same thing as you, that in this case, the cost is PURELY driven by marketing assigning what they think people will pay for it -- which is why everyone is angry.

I agree they will sell more touches, but look at it this way. The touch likely had multiple engineers working on it, (I would guess 1-2 for hardware, 1 for mechanical, 1 for computer software, and 1-2 for internal programming), had a longer development time, higher tooling costs, and much higher per unit cost...They HAVE to sell a lot more of them. The bracket takes minimal sunk cost in comparison. Lets say they spent 100k on the thing for development and tooling. They have to sell a whopping 1000-1500 of them to make their money back. I hope for Logitech's sake they sell more than 1000 of a product.


Well said - since when did the BOM have anything to do with street price? (other than street price is never lower... apart from the Bugatti Veyron...)
Well, every time I got a call from marketing telling me they wanted to lower the price on a unit and asked if/where I could pull money out of the build cost because they had to maintain the profit margin.

Goodsounds
2009-09-29, 16:04
.....Commodities end up being priced according to cost because of competition..

Really? I think the opposite is true, costs of production and supply rarely influence commodity prices.

It's because of the nature of a commodity product, the source (and production cost) is mostly irrelevant. In a free market, the price is set by the market (interaction of buyers and sellers, supply and demand).

You may not understand what a commodity is. Few (if any) of the things you mentioned would be regarded as subject to commodity pricing effects.

TiredLegs
2009-09-30, 04:20
How much does a CD cost to press?
What's the BOM for a couple of ounces of oil paint and a square of canvas?
How about a couple of yards of fabric and some thread?
1cm2 silicon wafer and a small ceramic block?
Couple of hundred small sheets of paper and some binding?

We're talking about a consumer electronics product here. Except for the silicon wafer, the value of your examples is in their intellectual property, not their materials. In the case of the silicon wafer, the value is a result of their elaborate and time consuming production processes. Do you really believe that the Touch wall-mount bracket has $100 value for either of those reasons?

Phil Leigh
2009-09-30, 04:54
Well, every time I got a call from marketing telling me they wanted to lower the price on a unit and asked if/where I could pull money out of the build cost because they had to maintain the profit margin.

As I said, the only time that BOM relates to street is if anyone tries to take the street lower than the BOM... thus eliminating profit! (apart from that Bugatti...)
Normally the idea is to get the street as far as possible from the BOM whilst maximising volume. There are 2 ways to do that: lower the BOM or raise the street. Both have their dangers..

Phil Leigh
2009-09-30, 04:59
Really? I think the opposite is true, costs of production and supply rarely influence commodity prices.

It's because of the nature of a commodity product, the source (and production cost) is mostly irrelevant. In a free market, the price is set by the market (interaction of buyers and sellers, supply and demand).

You may not understand what a commodity is. Few (if any) of the things you mentioned would be regarded as subject to commodity pricing effects.

The only argument against claiming that IC's (of any type) are a commodity would be that commodities aren't typically subject to market obsolescence - surely?

Doesn't a commodity require a perpetual market?

By definition, the wall plate cannot be considered a commodity, since its raison d'etre is the Touch which will itself have a finite shelf-life...

Touch2 might require wall plate2...

Jonnio
2009-09-30, 05:30
As I said, the only time that BOM relates to street is if anyone tries to take the street lower than the BOM... thus eliminating profit! (apart from that Bugatti...)
Normally the idea is to get the street as far as possible from the BOM whilst maximising volume. There are 2 ways to do that: lower the BOM or raise the street. Both have their dangers..

It's actually not BOM approaching street price, its the need to maintain a specific profit margin in order to be worth the time to produce said product...anyway, I think this discussion has gone way away from the point and we have reached an agreement (which my original post along these lines was trying to express). This does not appear to be a case of the cost of the product being driven by the cost to design/manufacture/produce. The cost has been set based on what Logitech marketing feels the market will bare. Time will tell if they were right or not.

Goodsounds
2009-09-30, 07:49
The only argument against claiming that IC's (of any type) are a commodity would be that commodities aren't typically subject to market obsolescence - surely?

-Some semiconductor devices are called "jelly beans". High volume, low cost, low technology. Most would say these are commodities, along with others for which there are many suppliers, when products are (mostly) indistinguishable as between sources and the suppliers are unable to set prices unilaterally. For others, I would say not.

Obsolescence or other product characteristics aren't really relevant insofar as understanding the concept. It's a pricing and market concept, nothing more.


Doesn't a commodity require a perpetual market?
-I don't think so, it's merely a pricing concept.



By definition, the wall plate cannot be considered a commodity, since its raison d'etre is the Touch which will itself have a finite shelf-life...
-No, I think one would say so because there's only one supplier, not multiple ones.

Phil Leigh
2009-09-30, 07:53
So, commodity pricing is the opposite of cartel/monopoly pricing?

pfarrell
2009-09-30, 08:09
Phil Leigh wrote:
> So, commodity pricing is the opposite of cartel/monopoly pricing?

No, you have orthogonal topics.

Commodities are sold in bulk. Cartel/monopoly markets include crude oil,
which is sold in bulk.

Commodity are not branded and there are no (important) difference
between them. In the 1980s, 750cc Japanese "standard" motorcycles were
essentially commodities, everyone made them, they all ran about the
same, they all looked essentially the same. There was no perceived
difference, so there was no difference between a Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki
or Kawasaki. This meant the competed on price alone, and that was bad
for the dealers and manufacturers. So they went into wild styling, Honda
converted theirs to a V4 motor, etc. Then you could claim that they were
different.

This thread, I say again, is pointless. The Wall-mount bracket is going
to be low volume, its a specialty product. The actual cost has nothing
to do with its price.

If a zillion folks wanted it, then it would move out of the specialty
market and you would expect the price to drop, either by economies of
scale or competition.

There is no mass market for accessories that one percent of a small
market will buy. Get over it.


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

iPhone
2009-09-30, 08:46
I wouldn't say the thread itself is pointless. There is the point that most people think the mounting bracket is over priced.

But I agree that all the rest of it, BOM, Commodities, demand, cost to design, and what not have absolutely nothing to do with anything in this case so in that regard it is pointless.

It comes down to it being an accessory and a limited demand speciality one at that. Marketing is going to "set" the price. And the only thing that is ever going to lower that price is if they end up with 10K of them in a warehouse somewhere 3 years from now and they blow them out to get rid of them.

aubuti
2009-09-30, 08:53
It comes down to it being an accessory and a limited demand speciality one at that. Marketing is going to "set" the price. And the only thing that is ever going to lower that price is if they end up with 10K of them in a warehouse somewhere 3 years from now and they blow them out to get rid of them.
Or someone with *way* too much time on his hands decides he can grab a piece of this tiny market by producing a competing product for less than $100.

Goodsounds
2009-09-30, 11:31
So, commodity pricing is the opposite of cartel/monopoly pricing?

Not exactly. Cartel or monopoly pricing, both of which are different topics than commodity pricing, result when a seller has enough power to control prices of a significant item across a market.

Commodity pricing is normally set by supply and demand in the market, but typically relates to products that are fungible. No single seller can influence the price. A cartel is an effort to get suppliers to act in unison to control supply and prices. An example of a cartel with a commodity would be OPEC.

I don't think these concepts really apply in thinking about an accessory to one company's product.

When one encounters a conversation or thread that one finds pointless, off topic, or otherwise uninteresting or unworthy, the best thing to do is to just move on quickly to something else.

Phil Leigh
2009-09-30, 12:10
Not exactly. Cartel or monopoly pricing, both of which are different topics than commodity pricing, result when a seller has enough power to control prices of a significant item across a market.

Commodity pricing is normally set by supply and demand in the market, but typically relates to products that are fungible. No single seller can influence the price. A cartel is an effort to get suppliers to act in unison to control supply and prices. An example of a cartel with a commodity would be OPEC.

I don't think these concepts really apply in thinking about an accessory to one company's product.

When one encounters a conversation or thread that one finds pointless, off topic, or otherwise uninteresting or unworthy, the best thing to do is to just move on quickly to something else.

Fair enough - just trying to understand the terminology in play here... :-)

I've always thought of a commodity as things like copper, orange juice, 741 op-amps etc - many competing suppliers and a (virtually) perpetual market to create ongoing demand over time.

As for the subject of this thread - it's price is what it is.
As many have said, if there really is a volume demand then Logitech or a competitor will lower the price.

I certainly wouldn't pay that price for the item in question. $50 - maybe.

Phil Leigh
2009-09-30, 12:13
Phil Leigh wrote:
> So, commodity pricing is the opposite of cartel/monopoly pricing?

No, you have orthogonal topics.



Pat - you are the only person in the last 6 years I've spent online that has ever used the word "orthogonal" - a word I often use myself at work to all round blank stares :-)
Kudos.
Phil

Keymaster
2009-09-30, 13:47
Pat - you are the only person in the last 6 years I've spent online that has ever used the word "orthogonal" - a word I often use myself at work to all round blank stares :-)
Kudos.
Phil

I'll admit it...I had no idea what the word meant, but I was fascinated and intrigued, so I decided to have a look.

Thank you Pat and Phil for the nightmares; it's been ages since I've seen a formula that so thoroughly freaked me out and made me curl up into a regressive-flashback-mathematical-scaredy_cat-ball.

Gotta say, though...I'm dying to find a reason to use it in conversation and then get asked what it means...:)

pfarrell
2009-09-30, 13:53
Keymaster wrote:
> Phil Leigh;463676 Wrote:
>> Pat - you are the only person in the last 6 years I've spent online that
>> has ever used the word "orthogonal" - a word I often use myself at work
>> to all round blank stares :-)
>
> I'll admit it...I had no idea what the word meant, but I was fascinated
> and intrigued, so I decided to have a look.

Interesting. when I was in a huge IT consulting company, we used it
fairly frequently. Of course, we also used the phrase "Eschew
obfuscation" when critiquing our proposals and other written documentation.

> Thank you Pat and Phil for the nightmares; it's been ages since I've
> seen math that so thoroughly freaked me out and made me curl up into a
> regressive-flashback-Pythagorean-scaredy_cat-ball.

In the consulting racket, and in arguing here, you can skip the math. It
just means that the argument is in another dimension to the one being
argued. You can move the argument to any point on the line, and it has
zero impact on the prime argument.

I generally don't have the "regressive-flashback-Pythagorean-scaredy_cat"
reaction, but then again, I have a BS in Math and loved it. After the
third time that I took calculus, I really understood it.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/