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View Full Version : Why do we need to chose SqueezeCenter/SqueezeNetwork?



dave77
2009-09-17, 07:03
This has got to be the most confusing option for non techies, I mean, why do we need to choose SqueezeCenter or SqueezeNetwork as a music source?

Can we not have this done seamlessly, eg when I turn on my SB player, if a SC is found then I get an extra option 'My Music Library'

eq72521
2009-09-17, 10:16
This has got to be the most confusing option for non techies, I mean, why do we need to chose SqueezeCenter or SqueezeNetwork as a music source?

Can we not have this done seamlessly, eg when I turn on my SB player, if a SC is found then I get an extra option 'My Music Library'

This scenario wouldn't play nicely when your Internet access is down. I actually sometimes use my music server and SBs in places with no Internet access at all, so I rather like that it can be done completely offline.

On the other hand, the devices could perhaps be set up to connect to one but to fall back automatically to the other.

aubuti
2009-09-17, 10:23
Can we not have this done seamlessly, eg when I turn on my SB player, if a SC is found then I get an extra option 'My Music Library'
That is exactly the direction things are going with 7.4. It's not perfectly seamless, but it's a lot closer. You might want to give 7.4 a try -- it's in pretty good shape right now.

vw195
2009-09-17, 10:32
Can Favorite Presets be synced from SC to SN? That would make alot of sense as long as they were not local favorites.

aubuti
2009-09-17, 10:37
Can Favorite Presets be synced from SC to SN? That would make alot of sense as long as they were not local favorites.
No, I don't think so.

dave77
2009-09-17, 10:38
That is exactly the direction things are going with 7.4. It's not perfectly seamless, but it's a lot closer. You might want to give 7.4 a try -- it's in pretty good shape right now.

Cheers, I'll take a look at it.

Nonreality
2009-09-17, 21:16
I don't understand the confusion what so ever. Really read up a bit and it all makes sense. Get over it.

Paul Webster
2009-09-17, 22:32
See the videos linked to in the thread referred to below to see how it can be confusing to new users.

He was trying to do something a bit more sophisticated - but I dud feel a bit sorry for him during the first one.

I started by reading up and trying Slimserver before I bought my first Squeezebox but I expect that most new users do not do that.

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=62838

hunta
2009-09-18, 01:00
I completely agree. If Logitech are aiming Squeezeboxes in their various guises at the mass market, then things have to be a lot more intuitive. The SqueezeCenter / SqueezeNetwork point is a prime (and to be fair, probably the biggest) example. It's fine for those of us who have been around a while and have had these concepts grow up around us, but a new customer shouldn't have to read up to understand the difference, it should either be obvious functionality or seamless.

dave77
2009-09-18, 01:17
This scenario wouldn't play nicely when your Internet access is down. I actually sometimes use my music server and SBs in places with no Internet access at all, so I rather like that it can be done completely offline.

On the other hand, the devices could perhaps be set up to connect to one but to fall back automatically to the other.

Exactly, if SC is on then 'My Music Library' is shown, if Internet is on then 'Internet Radio' is shown.

bernt
2009-09-18, 01:23
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=53445

BastiaanR
2009-09-18, 03:24
I don't understand the confusion what so ever. Really read up a bit and it all makes sense. Get over it.

A lot of users are baffled by SqueezeCenter / SqueezeNetwork. You won't believe how many calls we get from users who cannot find their local music to play. And of course it turns out their SB is connected to SN.

It's also hard to explain to users why a SB cannot just be connected to both. Or why it doesn't switch automatically, depending on what you want to play or what is available.

And then there is the ever continueing confusion about the PIN number. "The instructions tell me I should register with a PIN number. I've looked everywhere in the manual but I can't find it anywhere. And when I use the number on the back of the SB (00:04:20...) it's not accepted."

aubuti
2009-09-18, 03:30
Exactly, if SC is on then 'My Music Library' is shown, if Internet is on then 'Internet Radio' is shown.
What about users of MP3Tunes, who have "My Music Library" on SN? In at least one incarnation (including the current?), "Music Library" shows up on both SC and SN. But what you find below the "Music Library" differs on SC and SN.

dave77
2009-09-18, 04:22
What about users of MP3Tunes, who have "My Music Library" on SN? In at least one incarnation (including the current?), "Music Library" shows up on both SC and SN. But what you find below the "Music Library" differs on SC and SN.

The 2 must be able to co-exist seamlessly without needing to switch SN to SC eg select "My Music Library" then depending on what's available you get different options.

How does 7.4 differ? I haven't tried it yet, probably won't til it's final.

aubuti
2009-09-18, 04:26
The 2 must be able to co-exist seamlessly without needing to switch SN to SC eg select "My Music Library" then depending on what's available you get different options.

How does 7.4 differ? I haven't tried it yet, probably won't til it's final.
That's a very broad question. When do you need to switch between SC and SN on 7.3.3? Even with 7.3.3 all of the SN stuff is available when SC is running, without any explicit switching to SN.

TheLastMan
2009-09-18, 04:29
What I have never been able to completely establish is whether there are any services available on SqueezeNetwork that are not available on SqueezeCenter.

As far as I can tell, as long as I am connected to SqueezeCenter, I have access to all the on-line music services and internet radio as well.

In which case, because I have a NAS running SqueezeCenter 24/7, there is no real need for me to connect to SN. Or am I missing something?

dave77
2009-09-18, 04:32
When do you need to switch between SC and SN on 7.3.3?

For example, if SC was the last connection and I turn on my SB it will try to connect to SC again. If SC is not available I get an error saying no SC found or something like like. It isn't obvious/intuitive what to do next. I know I have to press back loads of times to get to the root menu then choose SN to connect to but it should do that itself.

mherger
2009-09-18, 04:41
> In which case, because I have a NAS running SqueezeCenter 24/7, there
> is no real need for me to connect to SN. Or am I missing something?

no.

TheLastMan
2009-09-18, 04:57
> In which case, because I have a NAS running SqueezeCenter 24/7, there
> is no real need for me to connect to SN. Or am I missing something?

no.

The kind of answer I needed! Thanks.

aubuti
2009-09-18, 04:58
For example, if SC was the last connection and I turn on my SB it will try to connect to SC again. If SC is not available I get an error saying no SC found or something like like. It isn't obvious/intuitive what to do next. I know I have to press back loads of times to get to the root menu then choose SN to connect to but it should do that itself.
That's exactly where they're trying to go with 7.4. It's not there yet, and it's not clear whether it will be in place in time for the release of 7.4. The 7.4 release has to take place with the release of SB Radio, which is scheduled for this month. If auto SBS-SN switching isn't working by then, that feature will get pushed to 8.0. But it is something they are actively working on.

@TheLastMan: You're not missing anything. If your SC is always available, you never need to explicitly switch to SN.

Mnyb
2009-09-18, 05:00
In reality it is even more confusing with this auto switching between sc/sn
I often wonder where i'm I ?

I like the distinct choice between two sources .

What I want to see is how WOL is going to work in this scenario how is the controller going to "guess" if I want to listen to SN or WOL the server.
I have seen some improvements lately.

But sometimes the cure is worse than the problem.

I have no problem seeing that "internet" or my local server are different sources .

Any one old enough to remember tape decks with "automatic" recording level :-)
No settings easy to use but never correct in any situation.

On the other hand less tech save relatives have asked me things like
"do I have internet on my computer now ?"

eap
2009-09-18, 12:42
@TheLastMan: You're not missing anything. If your SC is always available, you never need to explicitly switch to SN.

Why don't people just leave their PC (server) on all the time? Just leave it on - -have squeeze center running (which is also logged into squeezenetwork) -- so you see everything (local music and internet radio all the time).

Computers are meant to run 24/7. With FIOS and cable broadband there is no need to shutdown home PCs. The only time my PC shuts down is if there is a power failure during a thunderstorm.

aubuti
2009-09-18, 14:40
Why don't people just leave their PC (server) on all the time? Just leave it on - -have squeeze center running (which is also logged into squeezenetwork) -- so you see everything (local music and internet radio all the time).

Computers are meant to run 24/7. With FIOS and cable broadband there is no need to shutdown home PCs. The only time my PC shuts down is if there is a power failure during a thunderstorm.
Some people shutdown, or at least suspend, their computers for a variety of reasons. Noise is one, energy consumption is another. Or the server is a laptop that one person takes out of the house from time to time, leaving others with only SN. I'm fine leaving my SC server on, although I prefer to use the SrvrPowerCtrl plugin to suspend it when my players are idle, and wake it up via WOL. But some people want to turn the computer off.

Nonreality
2009-09-19, 03:12
I completely agree. If Logitech are aiming Squeezeboxes in their various guises at the mass market, then things have to be a lot more intuitive. The SqueezeCenter / SqueezeNetwork point is a prime (and to be fair, probably the biggest) example. It's fine for those of us who have been around a while and have had these concepts grow up around us, but a new customer shouldn't have to read up to understand the difference, it should either be obvious functionality or seamless.

Why in this new world should you not be expected to read a bit for a new wonderful device. It's not like you have to read War And Peace but just a bit to get the general idea. It's like everything else, people just don't want to take some responsibility and want everything spoon fed. Maybe I'm a bit harsh but man just take a little time to get a clue and all will be well.

toby10
2009-09-19, 04:06
SC7 advantages over SN for Internet Radio and Music Services usage:
+ SC can use Music Information Screen
+ SC offers immediate access to your local music library
+ SC includes Favorites folders and sub-folders for station favorites, all editable and movable (SN has no folders)
+ SC has Direct station search feature (not available on SN)
+ SC has much more screen configuration customizing
+ SC has a larger UI
+ SC has MUCH better Playlist configuration, control, editing, saving, use multiple playlists (SN Playlist cannot be saved, Playlist control limited to SB player, no UI interface for Playlist, only one Playlist instance, Playlist lost on disconnect)
+ SC has RadioTime presets (not available on SN)
+ SC has a better menu layout for Internet Radio
+ SC has logging for stream error diagnosis (SN has no logging)
+ SC has better player sync (SN can have lag and drift, and has limited sync options)
+ SC can sync most Music Services to multiple players (SN can’t use multiple players for many Music Services)
+ SC has Direct tune in URL via web UI (SN requires this be done by creating and saving as a Favorite before tuning)
+ no FW update conflicts switching between SC and SN
+ SC allows for third party plugins (not available on SN)
+ SC does not require “player PIN” registration

bruce
2009-09-20, 22:42
If you are thinking of the system architecture then sure, it makes sense for the user to distinguish between SC and SN. Then it sounds nice to add features like automatically switching between the two sources and syncing the two Favorites lists.

But if you are thinking of the *user*, the relationship should be more seamless. In particular, SC should be called something like "My Stuff", SN should be called something like "Internet Stuff", and either/both should appear in the top-level menu whenever they are available. Furthermore, Favorites should always present the same Favorites list regardless of which source is connected; isn't the whole point of Favorites to provide quick access to your favorites?

I don't see why all of this integration and source switching can't be done in the UI, so I assume the reason it didn't happen long ago is that the developers are thinking about system architecture rather than the user's mindset.

TheLastMan
2009-09-21, 03:23
Some people shutdown, or at least suspend, their computers for a variety of reasons. Noise is one, energy consumption is another. Or the server is a laptop that one person takes out of the house from time to time, leaving others with only SN. I'm fine leaving my SC server on, although I prefer to use the SrvrPowerCtrl plugin to suspend it when my players are idle, and wake it up via WOL. But some people want to turn the computer off.

If I were a Logitech designer, right now I would be working on two further devices:

Dedicated SqueezeCenter/SBS "server"
A basic dual drive NAS using RAID 1 "mirroring" with enough processing power and memory to run SBS comfortably and quickly. It should come pre-installed with two big hard drives. Most importantly, the NAS firmware and SBS software will be pre-installed on flash memory so that a hard disk failure is easily rectified. The drives could be mounted on simple slide-in caddies and Logitech could sell replacement drives pre-mounted into caddies. A rebuild of the RAID should be automatic when a new drive is added.

This should not try and replicate all the functionality of, for instance, the VortexBox. It does not need a CD/DVD drive or ripping software. As anybody who has been doing digital music for a decent length of time will know, there are far too many music sources, music types, file types and meta data formats to cater for everybody. It should simply be a repository for the user's music collection with the sole function of reliably running SBS 24/7.

It needs to be as small as possible and have very low power consumption and noise level and designed to be left on 24/7. If they want to be really innovative, Logitech could build it using 2.5" mobile drives so that it can be even smaller and lower power than most current NAS devices.

Dedicated SqueezeBox WAP
A cheap and cheerful WAP that is there simply to provide a wireless connection to the player(s). It would be designed for maximum compatibility and reliability when used with SqueezeBox players. The default setup should be to run alongside a user's current wireless router or WAP giving a dedicated music network. A sort of open source version of the Sonos network.

The main point of these devices will be that they are fully compatible with all SBS functions (and as many plug-ins as possible), it would be designed for reliability and - most important of all - backed by Logitech support and a strong guarantee.

Everything would be pre-installed and as close to "plug and play" as Logitech can make it. Only when digital music is as simple as "plug it in and turn it on" will networked music systems such as SqueezeBox become more widely accepted.

pablolie
2009-09-21, 05:39
a very intersting topic that shows how, even an entusiast early-adopter user core, requirements and virews can be quite different.

i like the versatility of SC and SN. i think the confusing part is that players that are switched to SN utterly "disappear" from the fact of the earth as far as SC is concerned. and if something is called SC, i would assume that it alwasy is aware of and able to establish control over any player in my domain.

so philosophically speaking, i think isntead of what seems a big divide and either/or choice, players should have two modes of operation - "SC attached" or "SC bypass". but SC always maintains player visibility and the ability to control them back.

and while i am an "always on" server person, there are factors to consider there:
- some of us are constant tinkerers are like to upgrade change or reinstall systems with some regularity. while SN is great in its ability to mgive us music while our main machine is down, SC's inability to backup player configuration is not the ideal tool there. it would be *awesome* if SN could act as a configuration repository.
- granted modern systems have greatly brought down power consumption (my E8600 based server combines good processing power with about 50W of power (monitor off)), but unfortunately sleep modes are still very temperamental on any home servers, since peripheral vendors don't seem to test drivers that thoroughly for sleep in desktop duty

so even believers on "always on" regularly need to take down their machines and upgrade and reconfigure them - scheduled downtime is a best practice in IT... :-)