PDA

View Full Version : Will we ever see an in-car version of the Touch?



MadScientist
2009-09-17, 05:29
I'd love to have version of the Touch in my car and have access to most, if not all, of my flac library. I wonder if we will ever see a version adapted for in-car use? Or is this just too far removed from Logitech's product development pipeline. In which case a DIY job may be feasible?

MS

aubuti
2009-09-17, 05:50
One of the SB Touch beta testers (forum username: iPhone) has been using the SBT in one of his vehicles. Says it works great. I don't think he has posted any photos yet, but he has posted some information about it in the forums, which you should be able to turn up via a search.

MadScientist
2009-09-17, 10:15
One of the SB Touch beta testers (forum username: iPhone) has been using the SBT in one of his vehicles. Says it works great. I don't think he has posted any photos yet, but he has posted some information about it in the forums, which you should be able to turn up via a search.

Thanks. I'm sure more users will look at in-car options after it's released.

MS

JJZolx
2009-09-17, 12:21
http://www.digitaltechnews.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/16/ventmount.jpg

iPhone
2009-09-17, 13:38
http://www.digitaltechnews.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/16/ventmount.jpg

To funny Jim! That is definitely a Touch in a car, iPhone Touch that is.

Yes, I am using my Squeezebox Touch in my Expedition. I have a DC/DC converter that supplies 5VDC at 4 amps to the Touch. Connected to the USB port is a 320GB Toshiba USB powered USB drive with FLAC files and the Touch is running Tiny SC. I have found another DC/DC converter that outputs 5VDC at 2 amps and 12VDC so I can also use a 1.5GB MyBook USB drive. I believe the Touch only needs three amps when the USB port is being used to power a USB device.

I will try to post some picture when I have time.

JJZolx
2009-09-17, 13:54
I wasn't really trying to be funny. I think the Squeezebox Touch is a very poor choice for such an application. There's now a 64GB iPod Touch available (for about the same price as an SB Touch and external hard drive) and for just $249 the 160GB iPod Classic can store more than 2000 albums in high quality MP3. There's just no compelling reason to kludge together some kind of Squeezebox setup in your car.

What really gets me shaking my head are the people speculating about how they'll be able to use the Squeezebox Touch with its internal server and an external hard drive as a portable system. Essentially it just gives you a gigantic multi-piece iPod that is bound to an electrical socket.

gorman
2009-09-17, 15:26
What about the fact that iPod interface is definitely not "steering wheel distance" friendly?
I have a 32GB Touch mounted in my car... but the standard font size of the "Now playing" screen has been thought for 5cm use, not further than that.

iPhone
2009-09-17, 15:41
I wasn't really trying to be funny. I think the Squeezebox Touch is a very poor choice for such an application. There's now a 64GB iPod Touch available (for about the same price as an SB Touch and external hard drive) and for just $249 the 160GB iPod Classic can store more than 2000 albums in high quality MP3. There's just no compelling reason to kludge together some kind of Squeezebox setup in your car.

What really gets me shaking my head are the people speculating about how they'll be able to use the Squeezebox Touch with its internal server and an external hard drive as a portable system. Essentially it just gives you a gigantic multi-piece iPod that is bound to an electrical socket.

The to funny part was about the two being Touch and an inside joke with Radish (the before the announcement idea he had). So probably a whole lot funnier for me then anybody else.

It doesn't have to be a kludge. Just as one has to have power for an iPod on a long trip all one needs is power for the Touch. I just bought a new 500GB Toshiba drive like my 320 today. It is the size of an iPod and USB powered. So I have the Touch and the drive the size of an iPod but 500 GB of favorite FLAC files. Thats it. The DC/DC PS is mounted behind the dash and all I do is plug the AUX RCAs in and the DC power. Squeezebox in the car mobile! When I get to the Beach or Cabin, unplug RCAs and power plug, take the Touch and iPod size drive inside and connect it to the Stereo. I have FLAC for the inside and road with way more song choices then my 32GB iPhone (love the iPhone, but you couldn't give me just an iPod).

Maybe its just me and the fact that I like music so much and don't care to listen to what is OTA and CDs are a pain when you travel. Or maybe because I have been driving around with SqueezeCenter in the cars with a Duet and SB3 for almost two years already and just think that Touch with TinySC just makes it that much easier.

And if car makers are including 40GB MP3 drives in their cars now, why would Touch seem so far fetched? Anyway, I had to have Squeezebox in my car before Touch and found a way to do it. When Touch is released, it will just be that much easier (plus the Mac Mini can come back into the house). The Touch is a whole lot less expensive (and less of a kludge) then a Duet and Mac Mini in a car to get Squeezebox mobile.

MadScientist
2009-09-17, 23:52
I don't see why a SB Touch (or derivative thereof) is a poor choice for the car. I'd really like the convenience of maintaining my music in just one file format (flac).

MS

gorman
2009-09-18, 07:39
What about the fact that iPod interface is definitely not "steering wheel distance" friendly?
I have a 32GB Touch mounted in my car... but the standard font size of the "Now playing" screen has been thought for 5cm use, not further than that.Also, what about the fact that gapless playback is not necessarily perfect unless you rip inside iTunes? If you go the FLAC--->Nero AAC way you are not guaranteed perfect gaplessness.

What about the fact the the on-the-fly playlist tool is ridiculous? No "play this next" option, in 2009? Come on... Rio Karma *still* has iPods beaten in too many areas when you restrict the field to music. :(

To re-iterate, I own an iPod Touch, but for in-car use a properly integrated 2-DIN Squeezebox Touch would kick its ass anytime.

radish
2009-09-18, 08:08
Also, what about the fact that gapless playback is not necessarily perfect unless you rip inside iTunes? If you go the FLAC--->Nero AAC way you are not guaranteed perfect gaplessness.

FLAC->lame works just fine for all my gapless stuff (and I have a LOT!).



What about the fact the the on-the-fly playlist tool is ridiculous? No "play this next" option, in 2009? Come on... Rio Karma *still* has iPods beaten in too many areas when you restrict the field to music. :(

To re-iterate, I own an iPod Touch, but for in-car use a properly integrated 2-DIN Squeezebox Touch would kick its ass anytime.

Agreed, ipod is far from the perfect portable player. But what I really want is a better ipod (that I can carry around or use in the car) - not a player that's attached to a 2 ton lump of metal. I remember when "car phones" became "cell phones" and as far as I'm concerned "car stereos" have already become "speakers for mp3 players". Just need a better mp3 player...

Goodsounds
2009-09-18, 11:16
......There's just no compelling reason to kludge together some kind of Squeezebox setup in your car.

What really gets me shaking my head are the people speculating about how they'll be able to use the Squeezebox Touch with its internal server and an external hard drive as a portable system. Essentially it just gives you a gigantic multi-piece iPod that is bound to an electrical socket.

I couldn't agree more, although I'm sure the company would love to supply products to automakers in lots of thousands at a time. It's overkill, the market is perfectly satisfied with car audio systems that allow people to easily connect the portable players they already own.

funkstar
2009-09-18, 11:20
I couldn't agree more, although I'm sure the company would love to supply products to automakers in lots of thousands at a time.
Then Logitech definitely would have to include a FM (and perhaps DAB) tuner. No way it would be accepted otherwise.

gorman
2009-09-19, 03:24
It's overkill, the market is perfectly satisfied with car audio systems that allow people to easily connect the portable players they already own.Based on what sort of market research? Is this why every car manufacturer offers built-in sat navigation as an option? Because *the market* is satisfied with Tom Tom and Garmin?

Is this why VAG (Volkswagen group) in Europe offers an hard drive + SD compatible option for pretty much all of their cars?

I'd say market<>my friends and me is a simple concept.

Again, if one wants to draw the "let's save money" argument, fine. But the current state of digital music usage, in cars, is pityful.

Are you saying that you like to have to carry with you *always* an iPod, lest risking of not having music in the car? That you are happy not being able to control it from the steering wheel (risking your life and that of others)?

I could go on and on...

gorman
2009-09-19, 03:27
FLAC->lame works just fine for all my gapless stuff (and I have a LOT!).What version of Lame are you using? What program are you using to do the conversion? Foobar?

I opted for AAC as it's supposedly slightly better at low bitrates (for portable use, even when using my UE-10, I don't go over 128kpbs).

garym
2009-09-19, 05:44
all versions of LAME since at least 3.90 (or even before) do gapless mp3. I too have no problem with gapless mp3s (created from FLACs, ripped from CDs, downloaded from Amazon, LIVE MUSIC ARCHIVE (concerts) etc.) These play correctly on my IPOD, in itunes, in foobar, and on my squeezeboxes..... (this is true whether created with foobar, with dbpoweramp, etc. If it is a LAME mp3, it should be gapless independent of what program is using LAME). This said, keep in mind that the PLAYER you use may not play gapless. But modern ipods recognize the LAME header gapless info.

gorman
2009-09-19, 06:19
LAME is not natively gapless. Vorbis and FLAC are.

That's why the header info you are referring to is needed. And it needs a player capable of interpreting it.

I somehow doubt that iTunes import functions rely on LAME headers for doing gapless on iPod. I think iTunes analyzes all the music with its own algorythm. Which is why it sucks that it's not perfect for Nero AAC.

When I say "not perfect" I refer to almost imperceptible transitions, not big pauses.

By the way, I own a iPod Touch 2G. It should be moder enough, shouldn't it?

radish
2009-09-21, 09:33
LAME is not natively gapless. Vorbis and FLAC are.

LAME is not a format, Vorbis and FLAC are :) You're right that bog-standard mp3 is not gapless, but the LAME gapless headers are pretty well understood these days, to the point of being a standard.



I somehow doubt that iTunes import functions rely on LAME headers for doing gapless on iPod.

My understanding from when iTunes/iPod started doing gapless (which was a while ago) was that iTunes parsed the LAME headers when you imported the file and then wrote it's own tags/db entries/whatever. The iPod itself wasn't reading the headers directly. Whatever it does, it works fine for me - getting that right was the last thing Apple had to do to get me to replace my Karma :) I'm _very_ sensitive to gaps/clips, so I'd notice.



By the way, I own a iPod Touch 2G. It should be moder enough, shouldn't it?
Sure, I've used an old 5G iPod and several generations of iPhone, all work fine. I've done the conversions variously with foobar, dbPoweramp and flac2mp3 (which just pipes the output of flac to the input of lame).

radish
2009-09-21, 09:40
Is this why every car manufacturer offers built-in sat navigation as an option? Because *the market* is satisfied with Tom Tom and Garmin?

Because it lets them sell a $200 upgrade for $2000, and people seem not to understand that in most cases a Garmin/TomTom is actually better than the built in systems. In short - because they can and it's profitable.



Are you saying that you like to have to carry with you *always* an iPod, lest risking of not having music in the car?

I _do_ always have it with me, because it's my phone as well. Whats more, my commute involves a ferry ride and a car drive - when transitioning between the two I can keep listening to whatever I was listening to with hardly a pause...wouldn't be possible with two seperate systems.



That you are happy not being able to control it from the steering wheel (risking your life and that of others)?

Steering wheel controls work fine for me.

maggior
2009-09-21, 09:47
My understanding from when iTunes/iPod started doing gapless (which was a while ago) was that iTunes parsed the LAME headers when you imported the file and then wrote it's own tags/db entries/whatever. The iPod itself wasn't reading the headers directly. Whatever it does, it works fine for me - getting that right was the last thing Apple had to do to get me to replace my Karma :) I'm _very_ sensitive to gaps/clips, so I'd notice.


This is true. I'm also very sensive to gaps and it was this feature that had me considering an iPod. When Apple first released the iPod/iTunes that supported gapless playback, everybody was skeptical. There was a thread at hydrogen audio where they did some comprehensive (if you are familiar with the HA forums, you know what I mean :-) analysis to prove that the playback was indeed gapless. It proved to be so.

There is one bug however - if you stop playback in the middle of a song or fast forward/advance to another part of a song, there will be a glitch in the transition to the next track. This is what threw a lot of people off in the beginning because you would tend to advance to the end of the track to test gapless rather than let it play through. I don't know if they fixed with the iPods > 5G.

Interestingly enough, SlimDevices introduced support for gapless playback of LAME mp3s right around the same time.

gorman
2009-09-22, 01:04
Steering wheel controls work fine for me.You still are in a minority I guess. What car, what adapter?

Anyway, I'd kill for an updated RioCar. It might be just me, but I find the convenience of an OEM solution to be a real plus. If not OEM, provide the means to install in a 2-DIN space. I guess someone could set up some sort of a business by creating adapters to this purpose.
A 500GB 2.5" USB drive and we'd be good to go.

Dreams... :(

toby10
2009-09-22, 04:35
...... I guess someone could set up some sort of a business by creating adapters to this purpose.
A 500GB 2.5" USB drive and we'd be good to go.

Dreams... :(

One of the regular contributors on here (iPhone?) has posted pics of his SB car install, very cool indeed.
But, honestly, I think a car install kit would be less in demand than the $99 wall mount kit. :)

gorman
2009-10-13, 00:59
Are these pictures still available somewhere?

bucaso
2009-10-18, 04:07
Hi - I live in the UK and would be very interested to see photos of the car installs please iPhone.

Best Wishes
David

Merlinwerks
2009-10-19, 07:35
I'm interested in seeing this myself...

Yesfan70
2009-10-21, 13:26
I use a Pioneer headunit with a 8GB USB drive for my MP3s. I like how the track info is displayed on the headunit. It is simliar to a SB, but still no where near as user friendly. It's better than lugging around a case of CDs though.


I would buy a Squeezebox based system for a car if offered. It doesn't have to be the newest thing, but something close to the Classic and navigates through my collection the same way as my Classic does would be ideal to me.

dsclar
2009-10-24, 12:16
I wasn't really trying to be funny. I think the Squeezebox Touch is a very poor choice for such an application. There's now a 64GB iPod Touch available (for about the same price as an SB Touch and external hard drive) and for just $249 the 160GB iPod Classic can store more than 2000 albums in high quality MP3. There's just no compelling reason to kludge together some kind of Squeezebox setup in your car.

What really gets me shaking my head are the people speculating about how they'll be able to use the Squeezebox Touch with its internal server and an external hard drive as a portable system. Essentially it just gives you a gigantic multi-piece iPod that is bound to an electrical socket.

Why not? I've been using a Squeezebox in my car for several years now. It works great. I agree it is a bit of a kluge but it's awesome to have 4000 albums available whenever I want to listen to them and they all play back with uncompressed audio.

I can put this system in either of my vehicles, but mostly it lives in my Lexus which has the Mark Levinson audio system. It doesn't sound quite as good as a cd played in the built in player but it's close enough for me. The cd in the player seems to have a tad more impact in the low end.

For those that are interested I built a nice little harness that connects the ethernet, audio and power cables so I can put the Squeezebox Classic wherever I need it. It doesn't mount so I usually keep it on the front passenger seat or on the console. The audio from the SB plugs into the Aux jack in my console. Of course I have no control other than through the standard SB interface but that's just fine for the time being.

I have a small power inverter that powers both the SB and my Samsung Q1 computer which has (2) 500g USB powered drives. These drives are USB buss powered but I also have them hooked up to 5v supplies to take some of the load off of the computer. There have surely been some issues in that it takes a bit of time to boot, and when I stop and start the car I need to reset the power to the SB. Since the Q1 is battery operated it can keep the drives initialized.

Before there were large USB drives I actually had a 1tb Free Agent Drive and that had it's challenges. It took a while for it to mount whenever I recycled the power. Of course starting the car resulted in a short term power droppage enough to kill the drive. The USB buss powered drives were a bit step forward. I just got some 1tb USB powered drives and I'm currently filing them up. That should make things even easier.

I'd think using a Touch in the car will be a big improvement. Now that I have the 1tb drives things should work much better with the Touch. I'm still waiting to get one.

slimfast
2009-10-30, 08:36
Why not? I've been using a Squeezebox in my car for several years now. It works great. I agree it is a bit of a kluge but it's awesome to have 4000 albums available whenever I want to listen to them and they all play back with uncompressed audio.

I can put this system in either of my vehicles, but mostly it lives in my Lexus which has the Mark Levinson audio system. It doesn't sound quite as good as a cd played in the built in player but it's close enough for me. The cd in the player seems to have a tad more impact in the low end.

For those that are interested I built a nice little harness that connects the ethernet, audio and power cables so I can put the Squeezebox Classic wherever I need it. It doesn't mount so I usually keep it on the front passenger seat or on the console. The audio from the SB plugs into the Aux jack in my console. Of course I have no control other than through the standard SB interface but that's just fine for the time being.

I have a small power inverter that powers both the SB and my Samsung Q1 computer which has (2) 500g USB powered drives. These drives are USB buss powered but I also have them hooked up to 5v supplies to take some of the load off of the computer. There have surely been some issues in that it takes a bit of time to boot, and when I stop and start the car I need to reset the power to the SB. Since the Q1 is battery operated it can keep the drives initialized.

Before there were large USB drives I actually had a 1tb Free Agent Drive and that had it's challenges. It took a while for it to mount whenever I recycled the power. Of course starting the car resulted in a short term power droppage enough to kill the drive. The USB buss powered drives were a bit step forward. I just got some 1tb USB powered drives and I'm currently filing them up. That should make things even easier.

I'd think using a Touch in the car will be a big improvement. Now that I have the 1tb drives things should work much better with the Touch. I'm still waiting to get one.

... or you could just use a small portable mp3 player like an iPod and hook it into the aux-in jack of a suitable ICE headunit.

Or get a headunit that supports iPod directly giving you an interface on the dash, less fiddly.

Or just get a headunit that supports USB in and/or SD card.

Squeezebox in a car makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. None.

dsclar
2009-10-30, 21:32
... or you could just use a small portable mp3 player like an iPod and hook it into the aux-in jack of a suitable ICE headunit.

Or get a headunit that supports iPod directly giving you an interface on the dash, less fiddly.

Or just get a headunit that supports USB in and/or SD card.

Squeezebox in a car makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. None.

But an ipod won't play FLAC files natively, and even if it did I have 1TB drives filled up with high quality music rips. No mp3's for me other than a few very old things and some old baseball game rips I made.

I totally disagree that the Squeezebox makes no sense in a car but to each their own. I use mine all the time and it wonderful to have 4000 CD's with me.

I now have the 1TB usb powered drives running which is a big upgrade over the multiple 500GB's I've previously used. I can only dream of having a Touch in the car with that drive plugged in. Once I have that than I will agree that a Squeezebox Classic makes no sense in a car.

pfarrell
2009-10-30, 21:44
dsclar wrote:
> But an ipod won't play FLAC files natively, and even if it did I have
> 1TB drives filled up with high quality music rips. No mp3's for me
> other than a few very old things and some old baseball game rips I
> made.

This is silly. My library of 800+ albums, all in flac is well under 500GB.

There is no need, zero, for flac in a car. Once you move, the road,
engine, and wind noise removes the ability to replay high fidelity.

High rate OGG or MP3 are fine.

> I totally disagree that the Squeezebox makes no sense in a car but to
> each their own. I use mine all the time and it wonderful to have 4000
> CD's with me.

You actually own 4000 CDs? Wow, I've never heard of anyone with that
many. I've heard of folks with a thousand or so, and others with many
tens of thousands of songs.

A few years ago I worked at a company (we predated the iTunes store
idea) that bought and ripped 10K cds. We had nearly everything in print.
Then we got a VC round and they said we needed more. So we ripped
another 30K albums. Total was 40K cds.

It was not all of the known universe of CDs, but it was 99.9 percent
coverage of the CDs that Americans actually bought.

Like books, music has a wicked fall-off. The popular stuff sells like
crazy, but one you fall out of the top-100 artists in the mainstream
genres, nobody sells any volume -- 2 thousand copies of an album is a
success if you are not the Rolling Stones or a Country group.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

ModelCitizen
2009-10-31, 00:08
What about the fact that iPod interface is definitely not "steering wheel distance" friendly?
I've not had one idea for an app that has not already been made. :-).
Try PlaySafe. Works for me.

A 32gb iPhone 3GS is fine in the car. It'd be nice if it was larger capacity and did flac, only so I did not have to maintain two libraries, but no-one is going to notice the difference in sound quality (not even if they drive a Rolls Royce).

With Google's recent announcement about its maps/streetview stuff morphing into a free GPS system not only has the smart phone made car many car stereo head units redundant, they're about to make stand-alone GPS systems redundant too.

MC

dsclar
2009-10-31, 00:31
dsclar wrote:
> But an ipod won't play FLAC files natively, and even if it did I have
> 1TB drives filled up with high quality music rips. No mp3's for me
> other than a few very old things and some old baseball game rips I
> made.

This is silly. My library of 800+ albums, all in flac is well under 500GB.

There is no need, zero, for flac in a car. Once you move, the road,
engine, and wind noise removes the ability to replay high fidelity.

High rate OGG or MP3 are fine.

> I totally disagree that the Squeezebox makes no sense in a car but to
> each their own. I use mine all the time and it wonderful to have 4000
> CD's with me.

You actually own 4000 CDs? Wow, I've never heard of anyone with that
many. I've heard of folks with a thousand or so, and others with many
tens of thousands of songs.

A few years ago I worked at a company (we predated the iTunes store
idea) that bought and ripped 10K cds. We had nearly everything in print.
Then we got a VC round and they said we needed more. So we ripped
another 30K albums. Total was 40K cds.

It was not all of the known universe of CDs, but it was 99.9 percent
coverage of the CDs that Americans actually bought.

Like books, music has a wicked fall-off. The popular stuff sells like
crazy, but one you fall out of the top-100 artists in the mainstream
genres, nobody sells any volume -- 2 thousand copies of an album is a
success if you are not the Rolling Stones or a Country group.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

Well I'd have to respectfully disagree. I can surely hear the difference between mp3's and flacs in my Lexus with the Levinson sound system. Of course XM radio sounds even worse than many mp3's but I can surely hear all the processing they're doing. If you can't hear the difference I guess that's good for you.

I should admit that I'm an audio engineer and have been listening to music production critically for decades so I know the sound of recorded music fairly well. Perhaps I'm cursed for being able to hear so many abberations in music reproduction, but that is also a part of how I earned a living. I think that also may allow me to enjoy the better recordings more than most.

As for having 4,000 CD's, that's really not all that many. I surely know people who have collections that dwarf mine. When I eventually get around to needledropping all my albums that will probably take me up towards 2TB. I've heard of people that have around 10TB of flac files.

As for 2,000 sales being a success I'd wish that was the case. I had a CD of one of my old recordings released in 2003 and it's sold about 3,000 copies so far. I surely don't think of it as a success as it didn't even recoup it's meager costs.

slimfast
2009-10-31, 03:34
But an ipod won't play FLAC files natively, and even if it did I have 1TB drives filled up with high quality music rips. No mp3's for me other than a few very old things and some old baseball game rips I made.

Why on earth is FLAC important in a _car_?

Is your car so amazingly quiet and your ICE system so fantastically hi-fi that you are seriously telling me that there is some sort of noticeable difference between FLAC and high bitrate AAC (on an iPod) when plugged into the aux-in socket???

And that this difference warrants hacking up a Squeezebox in some sort of harness (which sits on the passenger seat), and carrying a laptop with two external drives as a server?



I totally disagree that the Squeezebox makes no sense in a car but to each their own. I use mine all the time and it wonderful to have 4000 CD's with me.

I now have the 1TB usb powered drives running which is a big upgrade over the multiple 500GB's I've previously used. I can only dream of having a Touch in the car with that drive plugged in. Once I have that than I will agree that a Squeezebox Classic makes no sense in a car.

You can fit an _awful_ lot of music onto a 160gig iPod - more than you're ever likely to listen to when you are driving - but I guess having '4000 CDs' is pretty important for a car entertainment system.

By all means rig up whatever system you like with your own kit in your own car but it's delusional to think that there's any sort of wider demand for such. A simple iPod (or other HDD mp3 player) hooked into head unit provides all the functionality that 99% of the market is going to want and a hell of a lot less hassle.

pfarrell
2009-10-31, 07:36
dsclar wrote:
> Well I'd have to respectfully disagree. I can surely hear the
> difference between mp3's and flacs in my Lexus with the Levinson sound
> system. Of course XM radio sounds even worse than many mp3's but I can
> surely hear all the processing they're doing. If you can't hear the
> difference I guess that's good for you.

I can't believe that anyone can tell the difference when the car is
moving. Stopped, with a great system, sure.

I'm not talking MP3s at 64kb, but 350kb and higher MP3 or better Ogg
don't lose much.

Sure there is processing, but its about the music, and we used to listen
to AM in the car and be moved by the music.

> As for having 4,000 CD's, that's really not all that many.

What percentage to you listen to in any year?

Seriously, its a huge collection.

> I've heard of people that have around 10TB of flac files.

I've never heard of anyone who has legally bought 10 TB of flac files.
Nor can I imagine wanting to listen to 10TB of music


> As for 2,000 sales being a success I'd wish that was the case. I had a
> CD of one of my old recordings released in 2003 and it's sold about
> 3,000 copies so far. I surely don't think of it as a success as it
> didn't even recoup it's meager costs.

I did not say that 2000 copies is going to make money, but if you look
at the long tail, selling 2000 copies is way up the sales curve. A lot
of CDs sell a few hundred.

Even the Dixie Chicks are on record saying that their CD sales don't
make money, and they move a lot of CDs




--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

gorman
2009-10-31, 08:24
... I already wrote what an iPod is lacking.

Decent on the fly management of playlists. I can't tell an iPod, while I'm listening to a song, "I want to hear this song next". I have to think in advance if I ever need on the go functionality. If I don't I have to forfeit what I'm currently listening.

Decent replaygain support. The fact that Soundcheck uses only track gain makes it pretty much useless to me.

A WELL THOUGHT OUT skin for car usage. Tiny grey text on dark grey background? Really? Really?!?

Decent crossfade, smart would be great as with Squeeze.

Decent integration with a car. Lots of people do not like their car becoming a crisscrossing cables mess. Lots of people like an integrated look and usage. Why on Earth no company has introduced a slot in iPod loader on their headunits is beyond me.

Again, I currently use a 32GB Touch on my car, with this: http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/reviews/entry/griffin-tuneflex-aux-with-smartclick/

Does it work? Yes it does. Is it perfect? Not at all. An in car version of a Squeezebox Touch, with removable harddisk, would be the long awaited successor to the Rio Car and much better than any iPod solution currently available.

I just wish that the army of "I don't need it so nobody could possibly need it" would graciously get quiet.

pfarrell
2009-10-31, 08:33
gorman wrote:
> Why on Earth no company has introduced a slot in iPod
> loader on their headunits is beyond me.

Probably because its a very price competitive business, and Apple
charges a lot for the license to make a "iPod accessory"

And, while the iPod/iPhone is hot today, the car business moves more
slowly, by the time they get it included, we will all be using the next
great thing. The car companies and head unit vendors expected that
XM/Sirius would be the next great thing.


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

dsclar
2009-10-31, 10:08
Why on earth is FLAC important in a _car_?

Is your car so amazingly quiet and your ICE system so fantastically hi-fi that you are seriously telling me that there is some sort of noticeable difference between FLAC and high bitrate AAC (on an iPod) when plugged into the aux-in socket???

And that this difference warrants hacking up a Squeezebox in some sort of harness (which sits on the passenger seat), and carrying a laptop with two external drives as a server?



You can fit an _awful_ lot of music onto a 160gig iPod - more than you're ever likely to listen to when you are driving - but I guess having '4000 CDs' is pretty important for a car entertainment system.

By all means rig up whatever system you like with your own kit in your own car but it's delusional to think that there's any sort of wider demand for such. A simple iPod (or other HDD mp3 player) hooked into head unit provides all the functionality that 99% of the market is going to want and a hell of a lot less hassle.

I don't disagree that 99% of the market will be happy with an iPod solution. I have never been in that 99% btw. I should also admt that I haven't much experience with the higher bit rate mp3's but I'm sure they won't sound as good as flac's on my home system.

Perhaps I could get by with less music in my car, but what subset would I use there? It would be too hard to narrow down for me. Obviously I don't listen to all my music on a regular basis, but when I get the urge it's nice to be able to choose what I like to hear.

Of course I use the same data set in the car that I use with my home systems including with the Transporter. Btw, the difference in sound with the Transporter vs the Squeezebox is not at all insignificant to me, but that's another discussion.

I realize that many people think I'm nuts, but it's been that way most of my adult life. I built my first higher end car stereo back in 1976 when I installed a Crown D-60 and (4) ADS speakers into my BMW driven by a tuner and a Nakamichi 550. Most folks thought I was nuts back then, but it sounded better than anything I could have bought off the shelf.

In 1983 I designed and built a 200 watt per channel system into the same car and folks thought I was nuts again, but boy did it sound good. I added a pair of 6x9 rear deck mounted subwoofers (stereo of course) fed by a passive crossover since I now had plenty of clean power. I basically bought my Lexus because of the Mark Levinson sound system and once again people thought I was nuts to buy a car for such a silly reason.

Putting the Squeezebox into that system was a no brainer and still people think I'm nuts. Well that's just fine with me. I'm the only one whose opinion matters as I'm the one doing the listening.

I should add that as good as the Squeezebox sounds throught the Aux in jack, a CD played in the dash player sounds better, with slightly more impact in the bass. I attribute this to the limitations of the Aux input jack and thought hard about using a SP/DIF interface. Of course the Levinson system runs SP/DIF from the head end to the trunk mounted amps, but I abandoned that idea because it would sacrafice cell phone muting and some other features.

Thought there is a difference between the Aux jack and the CD in the dash, it is not at all major, and likely much less than the difference between playing flac's and mp3 files. I can spot digital artifacts a mile away and they drive me nuts.

Remember that I'm not your average listener. I was a critical listener in the music industry for years and that is how I have ended up where I am today.

Is my mobile Squeezebox a bit of a kluge? No doubt about it. But it's portable and I've taken it on vacations and even on a friends boat for parties.

Am I ridiculous for doing this? Perhaps as viewed by many here, but that has never stopped me. Without people like me or others pushing the envelope many products would not advance to where they are today.

One more thing. Yes I'm a new member here, but I have been using Squeezeboxes for years since the early days of the product. I generally avoid these types of forums because I'm often misunderstood and tire of explaining myself to people who don't grasp what I'm about. For those that are interested I generally have plenty to say in the Steve Hoffman Music Forums. www.stevehoffman.tv

Themis
2009-10-31, 11:13
I agree with dsclar on all this.

dsclar
2009-10-31, 14:50
I agree with dsclar on all this.

Thanks Themis,

Regardless of whether one can hear the dfferences between lossy files and lossless files in a car environment can we agree that one can certainly tell the difference in a home environment?

Now keep in mind that I have never downloaded an mp3 file from any file sharing site. I've never bought one legally either. Virtually all the music I have on my hard drive is music I own on CD's, records and tape. Not only that but I generally have the best sounding versions of them as there is often quite a variance in the quality of the commercial releases. I have many versions of some because they are slightly different.

Naturally, since at home I listen on a highly revealing system with a Transporter, I'm going to want my music files to sound as good as possible.

Assuming that I couldn't hear the difference in my car, why would I want to maintain two data sets, one lossless and one lossy? With my music buying habits it's hard enough maintaning my music files as it is. I have 5 backup sets including off site and keeping them current is quite a task, though I admit it's somewhat a labor of love. I have no interest in mp3 files whatsoever. Why would I want to go to all the work to maintain a constantly evolving secondary data set?

Right now the largest iPod that I know of is 160g. Even with high bit lossy compression I couldn't get my music to fit on that small a drive. Should I maintain multiple iPods breaking my collection up into volumes? Would I need to come up with some type of device to hold multiple iPods and link them together?

It sure seems to me that being able to use the same exact data set in the car that I use at home would be enough of a reason to want to use a Squeezebox in a car. If one doesn't notice a difference in the sound well that's just fine. As for me I hear a huge difference, but that's my thing. It still seems to make sense just for being able to have the whole collection available.

Themis
2009-10-31, 16:01
Thanks Themis,

Regardless of whether one can hear the dfferences between lossy files and lossless files in a car environment can we agree that one can certainly tell the difference in a home environment?
Oh, but I do suppose one can hear the difference between a lossless and a HQ lossy (320CBR) in a car. Its enough to know where to listen to. The ambient noise (with a reasonably modern car) is often too constant on motorways, and easily discarded from the brain listening process.

I have exactly the same problem: I'm actually obliged to rip my CDs to HQ lossy, just for the car. If I could have only one copy, it would simplify things a lot.
HDs cost nothing anymore, I really don't see why I would maintain two copies...

bucaso
2009-11-01, 03:37
Thanks Themis,

It sure seems to me that being able to use the same exact data set in the car that I use at home would be enough of a reason to want to use a Squeezebox in a car. If one doesn't notice a difference in the sound well that's just fine. As for me I hear a huge difference, but that's my thing. It still seems to make sense just for being able to have the whole collection available.

Doug, just as a matter of interest, I'd be intrigued to know how you actually operate your set-up in terms of practicalities, whilst driving, i.e. choosing music, changing to another playlist or set of files, whilst concentrating on avoiding all those other drivers doing their utmost to collide with you? Seriously though, I have enough trouble when my daughters plug an ipod in to the aux jack on my current head unit. I would love to have a 'better' solution, similar to yours but can't picture how this might work in practice, not the install, but the actual daily use.

(I also frequent Steve Hoffman - nice to see you over here too)

Best Wishes
David

dsclar
2009-11-01, 10:10
Doug, just as a matter of interest, I'd be intrigued to know how you actually operate your set-up in terms of practicalities, whilst driving, i.e. choosing music, changing to another playlist or set of files, whilst concentrating on avoiding all those other drivers doing their utmost to collide with you? Seriously though, I have enough trouble when my daughters plug an ipod in to the aux jack on my current head unit. I would love to have a 'better' solution, similar to yours but can't picture how this might work in practice, not the install, but the actual daily use.

(I also frequent Steve Hoffman - nice to see you over here too)

Best Wishes
David

It's not easy, that's for sure. I generally play albums so I don't have to change that much. I can operate the remote without looking as far as advancing songs and that kind of thing, but picking albums or songs is obviously more tricky.

I have a nice harness so there is plenty of reach as far as where to put the SB, but it usually sits on the passenger seat. I can put in on my console but sometimes it falls around curves so I generally revert to the seat.

I usually wait till I'm stopped at a light to add songs or albums to the playlist. I agree that this is not a great solution and I rarely use it on short trips. For long trips though it's not problem at all.

Due to the length of my harness I can actually put the unit on the steering wheel for short periods of time for manipulating through the files. That way I'm at least seeing the road at the same time I'm programming.

As for the SQ since I generally don't use it for short trips I often play XM or local radio. When I do switch to the SB the difference in sound is just amazing.

bucaso
2009-11-02, 14:41
It's not easy, that's for sure. I generally play albums so I don't have to change that much. I can operate the remote without looking as far as advancing songs and that kind of thing, but picking albums or songs is obviously more tricky.

I have a nice harness so there is plenty of reach as far as where to put the SB, but it usually sits on the passenger seat. I can put in on my console but sometimes it falls around curves so I generally revert to the seat.

I usually wait till I'm stopped at a light to add songs or albums to the playlist. I agree that this is not a great solution and I rarely use it on short trips. For long trips though it's not problem at all.

Due to the length of my harness I can actually put the unit on the steering wheel for short periods of time for manipulating through the files. That way I'm at least seeing the road at the same time I'm programming.

As for the SQ since I generally don't use it for short trips I often play XM or local radio. When I do switch to the SB the difference in sound is just amazing.

Many thanks for the answer Doug - I have a Sandisk Sansa that I have rockboxed and play FLAC files through my head unit. But I find I don't listen to things spontaneously - I actively choose before I set off on a trip and then that's it. I'd love a Touch screen head unit, within easy reach and with a big-enough screen for the graphics to be easy enough to navigate through to make the whole business an awful lot easier.

Best Wishes
David

Merlinwerks
2009-11-03, 08:24
I became interested in adapting the Touch for car use after looking at what's currently available in the double din mobile sound market. The biggest turn off for me has been the available GUIs, many have a 7" display, but still haven't figured out how to display cover art and album/artist info without truncating the information. Kenwood has the nicest implementation so far, Pioneer is very disappointing. Considering your looking at $700+ for a decent DD unit, adding the touch to an exisisting $250 HU seems like a reasonable compromise, especially if you enjoy a bit of DIY with your audio...

bucaso
2009-11-03, 11:07
Considering your looking at $700+ for a decent DD unit, adding the touch to an exisisting $250 HU seems like a reasonable compromise, especially if you enjoy a bit of DIY with your audio...

Sadly it's the DIY bit I'm not too good at!

Best Wishes
David

dsclar
2009-11-05, 09:46
Many thanks for the answer Doug - I have a Sandisk Sansa that I have rockboxed and play FLAC files through my head unit. But I find I don't listen to things spontaneously - I actively choose before I set off on a trip and then that's it. I'd love a Touch screen head unit, within easy reach and with a big-enough screen for the graphics to be easy enough to navigate through to make the whole business an awful lot easier.

Best Wishes
David

Agreed. I also generally preplan what I want to hear, but all of a sudden I get an idea and it all goes out the window. That's the beauty of having so much music with me. I can play basically whatever I want whenever I get the urge.

Btw, I'm back in the NYC area this week on vacation and have one of my 2.5" 1TB drives with me. I didn't bring a SB but can play the FLAC files just fine with WinAmp. It's great to have my music with me. That drive is no larger than my wallet.

I can't wait to have a touch mounted in my car with this drive hooked up to it.

bucaso
2009-11-06, 13:44
I can't wait to have a touch mounted in my car with this drive hooked up to it.

Will you be able to mount it properly i.e. instead of or extra to your Head Unit or it will be via some kind of harness etc.,

Best Wishes
David

dsclar
2009-11-10, 08:45
Will you be able to mount it properly i.e. instead of or extra to your Head Unit or it will be via some kind of harness etc.,

Best Wishes
David

Probably a harness so I can send it's output to the Aux jack, though I won't really know the details until I get one and see what I can come up with.

Unfortunately the only easy interface I have available is the Aux In jack. I can likely run SP/DIF in the Lexus but that would be a lot trickier. It would require me to take the console apart and do some mods. Yes I can do that, but I'd sure prefer not to since the Aux In jack sounds good enough for me and I'm pretty fussy about sound.

That said, hopefully I'll be able to at least find a way to mount the Touch. Currently my SB3 is just sitting wherever I put it. That works but is obviously not as slick as if I could have something mounted.

MelonMonkey
2009-11-10, 15:48
One of the first thoughts I had when I saw the SBTouch months ago was "that would go well in a double din." Both for its form factor as well as its ability to act as the server and play directly from external storage.

That's because for a couple of years I've already been thinking about the possibility of running SBS on a small PC in the trunk or under a seat streaming wirelessly to an iPod Touch in a custom din or double-din enclosure.

As long as the UI on the SBTouch is easy to use it could make a wonderful mobile system.
I've been spoiled since 2001 having the what used to be the best digital music player on the planet (until the SB3 came out), the empeg Car, aka Riocar. It still does a number of things that SB won't do even with plugins, but at this point, SBS is the best digital music software platform around, no two ways about it. Personally, I like having my whole music collection with me when I'm mobile.

An iPod running Apple's software is a popular choice but frankly the UI stinks even just walking around with one, let alone in a car environment. The UI on the iPod touch and iPhone is not much better than the Classic series. My streaming idea would involve a port of SqueezePlay or similar-functioning 3rd party software.

I'm not surprised a lot of people will chime in on the SQ issue. I can't speak for anyone else, but the SQ in my car is likely better than the majority of home systems of most posters here. And it's not elaborate by any means. Road noise is always an issue to contend with, but don't forget that you can't and shouldn't compare the noise inside your Honda to someone else's BMW. The difference is night and day. Really.

We'll see how it goes with the SBTouch, but I do hope someone takes the plunge to hack one into their car before I do. New child = not a lot of time for fun projects right now.

lrossouw
2009-11-10, 22:51
This product has intrigued me in the past:
http://www.parrot.com/uk/products/hands-free-car-kits/parrot-rki8400

It seems to be able to play music off anything (including phones, iphones), can charge these on the usb connection, or also connect via bluetooth. It also becomes the in car phone of course.

And you can store the phone whatever out of sight inside the device.

Don't have a car at the moment, so won't be trying it soon though.

EDIT: Doesn't seem to support flac for those who need it.

gorman
2009-11-14, 15:10
I've been spoiled since 2001 having the what used to be the best digital music player on the planet (until the SB3 came out), the empeg Car, aka Riocar. It still does a number of things that SB won't do even with plugins, but at this point, SBS is the best digital music software platform around, no two ways about it.I've thought for so long about buying a Riocar. Got scared about the whole "no support" thing, but always longed for a similar solution from somebody else.
To think about what I have to put up with to use my iPod Touch... jeez... the on the fly playlist management must have been programmed by somebody that never uses it.

jtf
2009-11-16, 11:15
Great thread here.

I've toyed with the idea of putting a Slim Devices player in my car ever since my first SliMP3 but have never done it.

I would be fine using my iPod touch in the car... IF IT WAS USABLE IN LANDSCAPE!!! For years I have been annoyed at the ridiculous cover flow of the iPod touch. You flip it landscape where there is MORE width and they display it in the same font size with 1/2 of the screen essentially unused.

The iPod touch would be perfect in landscape with large fonts and navigation buttons.

Maybe the SB Touch is the solution...

gorman
2009-11-17, 05:10
Great thread here.

I've toyed with the idea of putting a Slim Devices player in my car ever since my first SliMP3 but have never done it.

I would be fine using my iPod touch in the car... IF IT WAS USABLE IN LANDSCAPE!!! For years I have been annoyed at the ridiculous cover flow of the iPod touch. You flip it landscape where there is MORE width and they display it in the same font size with 1/2 of the screen essentially unused.

The iPod touch would be perfect in landscape with large fonts and navigation buttons.

Maybe the SB Touch is the solution...I honestly fail to understand why Apple is not releasing an in-car skin. It would cost them very little... :(

jtf
2009-11-17, 08:38
I honestly fail to understand why Apple is not releasing an in-car skin. It would cost them very little... :(

Maybe it is so people that really care, will want to buy the Harmon Kardon in-car iPod navigation accessory? That thing is ridiculous too.

Back when I jailbroke my iPod, used an app called "pocket touch". The developer made it so you could change tracks and control playback with swipes. It worked landscape, but showed the same small text. I actually donated $30 to his project in hopes that he would add the option to increase font size but he never even acknowledged my donation or suggestion...

gorman
2009-11-18, 09:09
Maybe it is so people that really care, will want to buy the Harmon Kardon in-car iPod navigation accessory? That thing is ridiculous too. I doubt that, there's a plethora of accessories to facilitate the usage of an iPod Touch/iPhone in car.

I'm currently using this:
http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/tuneflex-aux-with-smartclick with this result:http://i48.tinypic.com/2edpmgw.jpg

It's all kept in place by Blu Tac and velcro for cable management (thankfully my car's carpeting is velcro friendly). I can play/pause, change track, shuffle, unshuffle and turn backlighting on and off from that removable remote on the steering wheel.

But playlists management is crazy. You can't decide "I want to listen to this song after this one", unless you always start playback with an on-the-go playlist and even in that case the management is foggy at best (maybe it's just me, I don't know... never had a problem understanding on the fly playlists with Rio Karma, Rockbox or Squeezebox).

And the font size is downright ridiculous. Light gray small text on a dark grey background. Ha!

dsclar
2009-11-23, 09:46
I just thought I'd do a follow up on something I mentioned earlier in this thread. I mentioned that the Squeezebox in my Lexus didn't sound quite as good as when I played the same CD directly from the in-dash player. Once again this is a Mark Levinson system in the Lexus.

Well I've been listening to the Transporter for a while on my main system and just for the heck of it switched back to a SB3 to see if the difference was as much as it seemed. It was. Of course I used the analog outputs of both units for this test.

Then it occured to me that the difference between the SB3 and the Transporter is pretty similar to the difference in the car between the SB3 throught the Aux input and the Levinson CD player.

This leads me to think that what I'm likely hearing in the car is the difference between the DAC's in the SB3 and the Levinson in dash unit.

tv69
2009-12-11, 16:28
I have a question regarding the SB Touch I hope someone can answer. With its WiFi capabilities can you connect to your network and then transfer music from your home network to a hard drive attached to the SB Touch via the USB port?

TV

aubuti
2009-12-11, 16:48
I have a question regarding the SB Touch I hope someone can answer. With its WiFi capabilities can you connect to your network and then transfer music from your home network to a hard drive attached to the SB Touch via the USB port?
yes