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regalma1
2009-09-04, 15:47
It seems to me that they reduced their appeal by not including an FM receiver, or even better an AM/FM receiver. Adding a receiver would be cheap.

I've been looking for a nice FM receiver for my kitchen. This radio with FM would be a killer box. Now I have to choose between them, or buy both.

The same would apply to the Boom. I think they need a more imaginative marketing group. But then Slim Devices has always seemed to be short on customer focus.

They seem always be focused on releasing the latest cool stuff and let the buyer suffer the bugs. Sort of like GM in the '70s.

Mark Miksis
2009-09-04, 15:50
It seems to me that they reduced their appeal by not including an FM receiver, or even better an AM/FM receiver. Adding a receiver would be cheap.

I've been looking for a nice FM receiver for my kitchen. This radio with FM would be a killer box. Now I have to choose between them, or buy both.

Why? Do you have a local FM station that is not available via the Internet Radio menu?

MikeekiM
2009-09-04, 16:08
Exactly... If you have Wi-Fi available, you should be able to hit any radio station you want (local or anywhere else in the world)... I think every relevant radio station in the SF Bay Area is represented in my available local channels...so I am good to go...

Is there a reason you need to receive OTA radio?

micah
2009-09-04, 20:21
I was also disappointed by the lack of an broadcast FM receiver. My local stations do stream of course, but sometimes simpler is better.

Not having an FM antenna means that I can't use it in the backyard out of the range of my wi-fi or listen to it while someone else in the house is hogging all the bandwidth. And of course sometimes my internet access does go down.

I've been trying to find out a way to use the waveinput plugin to stream the audio coming in from my FM tuner card but I think I might need to get a different card if I want to do it under linux. In the meantime, I'll stick to the inelegant solution of plugging my $20 Sansa clip into the Aux-In port.

Danny8
2009-09-04, 20:27
Is there a reason you need to receive OTA radio?
Some people want OTA radio in case of local or national emergency. You might need to receive information about relief when infrastructure is badly damaged.

Most people have access to several OTA radios, including one in their car. So, I agree with the decision to omit OTA reception.

peterw
2009-09-04, 22:01
Why? Do you have a local FM station that is not available via the Internet Radio menu?

The only local stations worth listening to webcast at something like 64k MP3. It's painful to listen to (it's hard to spend more than a few minutes on anything less than 192k), so I have a USB tuner on my Squeezecenter host that streams at 320k -- much better.

peterw
2009-09-04, 22:06
The only local stations worth listening to webcast at something like 64k MP3. It's painful to listen to

Whoops, make that 32k. Seriously.

Mark Miksis
2009-09-04, 22:25
The only local stations worth listening to webcast at something like 64k MP3. It's painful to listen to (it's hard to spend more than a few minutes on anything less than 192k), so I have a USB tuner on my Squeezecenter host that streams at 320k -- much better.

Hmm. Fair point. For the most part my internet radio listening is for things like NPR and ESPN where bitrate isn't an issue. For music, I prefer Pandora, Rhapsody, etc.

micah
2009-09-05, 07:30
... so I have a USB tuner on my Squeezecenter host that streams at 320k -- much better.

peterw, what USB tuner do you use? any chance there is a linux driver for it?

One other advantage about using a tuner in Squeezecenter is that you only need to have one antenna at the server, and not need an ugly antenna to fight with in each listening area. I can add an FM antenna to my UHF setup in my attic and get much better reception than I get in the kitchen.

bpa
2009-09-05, 07:49
I use a Griffin RadioShark on same PC as SC. It provides AM/FM and I have a plugin for both Windows and Linux (Sharkplayer). It works well - I use it for a local station which I use as an alarm - its WMA stream was unreliable and often couldn't connect to play in the morning.

Some other users have bought dongles with Silabs chips (e.g. ADS InstantFM).

Alternatively there are users which have streamed USB tuner (e.g. using VLC) on one PC and so SC can be on a different PC to the tuner.

peterw
2009-09-05, 10:08
peterw, what USB tuner do you use? any chance there is a linux driver for it?


RadioShark, original version, on a Linux server. Search the forums for details I posted earlier. Sound quality is listenable but not great, but the shark is in my basement so I can't expect too much. I hope I'll be able to connect it to a pogoplug or Squeezebox Touch in a better location
.

micah
2009-09-05, 19:18
Thanks bpa and peterw.

it looks like the RadioShark uses the headphones as an external antenna so I should be able to connect my attic antenna and get good reception in the basement.

LukeS
2009-09-05, 21:12
The only local stations worth listening to webcast at something like 64k MP3. It's painful to listen to (it's hard to spend more than a few minutes on anything less than 192k), so I have a USB tuner on my Squeezecenter host that streams at 320k -- much better.

FM is rated at 96K (equivalent bit-rate), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_rate, So it's not great to begin with.

Here is some conflicting information, the wiki on HD radio stats FM equivalent bit-rate is 25-50k, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Radio#FM

I am still waiting for HD radio receivers to come down in price.

bpa
2009-09-05, 23:59
FM is rated at 96K (equivalent bit-rate), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_rate, So it's not great to begin with.


I wouldn't trust that reference as it puts DAB at 192kbits/sec whereas most listeners rate FM to be better quality than DAB.

toby10
2009-09-06, 09:05
Keep built in tuners OFF of these devices! :)
Those that want it can buy an external tuner.
Buy a $10 battery operated AM/FM radio and store it with your military MRE's and iodine tablets for the extremely rare instance of "emergencies".

Mike Meyer
2009-09-06, 09:22
Another reason for broadcast AM/FM is for sporting events. Most of those are 'blacked out' via the internet stations.

pfarrell
2009-09-06, 09:28
Mike Meyer wrote:
> Another reason for broadcast AM/FM is for sporting events. Most of
> those are 'blacked out' via the internet stations.

Yes, this is a pet gripe of mine. You can get baseball games over the
'net but its expensive. Perhaps its a good deal for a Yankees fan who
travels a lot, but not if you want to follow your local team from the
Radio next to your easy chair.

I assume this is a temporary problem, until the leagues figure that OTA
radio is dead. Of course, the RIAA hasn't figured that out yet.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

Goodsounds
2009-09-06, 10:21
Mike Meyer wrote:
> Another reason for broadcast AM/FM is for sporting events. Most of
> those are 'blacked out' via the internet stations.

.... OTA radio is dead.. ..
http://www.pfarrell.com/

Really? While revenue is down like everywhere else, I'd thought audience sizes have been holding steady. As far as I know, the number of people who listen to broadcast radio dwarfs the number who listen over the internet. Maybe I'm wrong about that?

Something like two-thirds or more of people in cars listen to the radio. You know, the ones who aren't texting, on the phone, putting on make-up, drinking coffee and reading the paper at the same time. Don't tell them radio is dead.

Paul Webster
2009-09-06, 10:31
Requests for FM/AM has come in before - indeed it cost Slimdevices 2 devices that I got from other suppliers.

It was extensively discussed in this old thread (and others)
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=51748

pfarrell
2009-09-06, 10:32
Goodsounds wrote:
> pfarrell;455714 Wrote:
>> .... OTA radio is dead.. ..
>
> people who listen to broadcast radio dwarfs the number who listen over
> the internet. Maybe I'm wrong about that?
>
> Something like two-thirds or more of people in cars listen to the
> radio.

Drive time radio is doing well. But that's it. People used to buy tuners
for their stereo and listen to radio. That's gone.

OTA radio is dead, just as newspapers and the network nightly news. It
doesn't know it yet, and they pretend they are relevant, but the future
is clear. All they are arguing about is the timing of the funeral.


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

funkstar
2009-09-06, 11:53
Requests for FM/AM has come in before - indeed it cost Slimdevices 2 devices that I got from other suppliers.
Do those devices do everything a Squeezebox does?

Goodsounds
2009-09-06, 13:53
Goodsounds wrote:
> pfarrell;455714 Wrote:
>> .... OTA radio is dead.. ..
>
> people who listen to broadcast radio dwarfs the number who listen over
> the internet. Maybe I'm wrong about that?
>
> Something like two-thirds or more of people in cars listen to the
> radio.

Drive time radio is doing well. But that's it. People used to buy tuners
for their stereo and listen to radio. That's gone.

OTA radio is dead, just as newspapers and the network nightly news. It
doesn't know it yet, and they pretend they are relevant, but the future
is clear. All they are arguing about is the timing of the funeral.


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

So you think they'll stop putting radios into cars, and no more radio tuners in bedroom "clock radios"? I don't think either scenario is very likely.

Component tuners you describe were never more than a tiny market. Their relative disappearance is not indicative of anything.

I think you're wrong about broadcast radio, but you're welcome to your opinion.

Paul Webster
2009-09-06, 16:40
Do those devices do everything a Squeezebox does?

No.

But I already had 2 Squeezeboxes and I knew what they could do.
What I was looking for was a simple single box device (including amp/speaker) that would be primarily for radio stations including access to BBC On Demand.
The Boom took too long to appear - by which time I had one interent radio device.
For my 2nd I also wanted FM radio ... the Boom had come out but without FM ... and so I had my 2nd internet radio (with FM this time).

For my next one - I am torn between Touch and Radio - but will probably go for Touch with powered speakers because of the ability to plug in USB disk of audio files. It will not be in the same geographic location ... and FM is not as important there.

autopilot
2009-09-06, 17:26
Keep built in tuners OFF of these devices! :)
Those that want it can buy an external tuner.
Buy a $10 battery operated AM/FM radio and store it with your military MRE's and iodine tablets for the extremely rare instance of "emergencies".

Well said!

You could also plug that portable radio into the line-in on the Boom or Radio.

Mnyb
2009-09-06, 20:55
In the future we will hopefully don't suffer these low bit-rates streams, thats about the only thing thats makes we want FM at home, AM is dead in sweden nobody uses it.

The usability limit for me is 128kps mp3 or 96kbps WMA

The swedish public radio networks does a good job of sending every channel in 96k wma a hint to BBC , who was a role model for SR (Sveriges Radio) in the 70's apparently they are lagging behind with horrible real audio broadcast's ugh.

With our wast country side there is no real replacement for Radio here.

Mobile internet is a very far cry from being useable in this context yet. I'm looking forward to the day when streaming from my server to the car is viable.
For now when in the car or in the bushes FM radio is it

If the war/revolution comes ? I cant find my dog-tag or even a flashlight or candles or even a bottle of water if the tap stops working.

Oh no *everything* is on the net http://www.mreinfo.com/
they have a forum he he .

http://www.mreinfo.com/reviews/mci/pound-cake-1978.html

Paul Webster
2009-09-07, 00:14
The swedish public radio networks does a good job of sending every channel in 96k wma a hint to BBC , who was a role model for SR (Sveriges Radio) in the 70's apparently they are lagging behind with horrible real audio broadcast's ugh.

If listening in UK, BBC streams for national stations (as opposed to On Demand) are available at 128k WMA (192 for Radio 3). Has been since early July - following a period of experimentation with a variety of bit-rates.
BBC run at a lower bit-rate when listeners connect from abroad.
It looks like the RealAudio is going to be switched off to be replaced by WMA.
BBC local radio is still being worked on.

Of course, with higher bitrates generally come higher quality and higher bandwidth consumption.
People with capped bandwidth limits from their ISP need to carefully evaluate. Just an hour a day for a month at 128kbps is around 1.7GB. Imagine how much bandwidth is used by someone who listens to a lot of radio.
Sure - they could pay more for a higher limit or uncapped service - or they could use FM.
Given Logitech's expertise in providing multi-function devices, including with FM then I would have thought that including FM in the Squeezebox range wouldn't be such a big thing to do - even if only as a hardware switch (i.e. not necessarily implementing in software).



Mobile internet is a very far cry from being useable in this context yet. I'm looking forward to the day when streaming from my server to the car is viable.
Increased bit-rates for stations plus heavier bandwidth caps on mobile phones (some contracts specifically prohibit streaming) make mobile use very hit-and-miss.
So broadcasters probably need to persist with having different bit-rates so that the listener can choose the most appropriate.
Take a look at Moodio ( http://www.moodio.fm ) for a transcoding service aimed at mobile phone users. I still have not worked out how they are going to pay for their streaming costs - but for now at least - it is free.

Mnyb
2009-09-07, 01:04
Since July good news for every BBC fan then.

I like BBC they produce good TV shows too.

I general I think we will have FM for another 20 years before networks is omnipresent and reliable everywhere.

The population density in some parts of the country is such that infrastructure is never commercially viable , it has to sponsored by the government. But one never knows technology is getting cheaper all the time
cell towers is much cheaper than land lines for example.

EowynCarter
2009-09-07, 01:04
Why? Do you have a local FM station that is not available via the Internet Radio menu?
They are. But don't work becasue it's mms / rtsp.
Plus, FM will work when you don't have internet or squeezeNetwork is down (that can happen). So a good FM reception would totally be a selling point to me.

dave77
2009-09-07, 10:59
I general I think we will have FM for another 20 years before networks is omnipresent and reliable everywhere.


A DAB tuner would be good, I don't know about the rest of the world but FM will be phased out in the UK in less than 10 years.

Paul Webster
2009-09-07, 11:22
A DAB tuner would be good, I don't know about the rest of the world but FM will be phased out in the UK in less than 10 years.
I'm pretty sure that FM will not be phased out in UK in less than 10 years.
The proposal has triggers based on uptake of "digital" listening - and talks about turning of national FM stations if the criteria is reached. But FM would continue and reallocated for more local stations.
I think that there is more of a chance of DAB being turned off in UK within 10 years ... and being replaced by DAB+ ... rendering obselete the majority existing bought DAB radios. Very modern DAB sets support DAB+ (at least via firmware upgrade).

Mnyb
2009-09-07, 11:22
A DAB tuner would be good, I don't know about the rest of the world but FM will be phased out in the UK in less than 10 years.

That must be an UK thing, but DAB has unusual presence in the UK must be horrific circumstances for "normal" FM .

SR tried with DAB for a very long time, it's now laughing stock and hailed as a total fiasco and wasted tax money.

DAB is even more dead than FM ;)

dave77
2009-09-07, 12:30
I'm pretty sure that FM will not be phased out in UK in less than 10 years.
The proposal has triggers based on uptake of "digital" listening - and talks about turning of national FM stations if the criteria is reached. But FM would continue and reallocated for more local stations.
I think that there is more of a chance of DAB being turned off in UK within 10 years ... and being replaced by DAB+ ... rendering obselete the majority existing bought DAB radios. Very modern DAB sets support DAB+ (at least via firmware upgrade).

http://forum.beoworld.org/forums/p/27111/210723.aspx

Less than 6 years actually! I was surprised when I read it

funkstar
2009-09-07, 12:33
I'm pretty sure that FM will not be phased out in UK in less than 10 years.
This is a messy subject, and I heard a couple of pieces about it on Radio 4 recently.

The Register seems to have a pretty good write up about it: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/19/carter_radio_dumb_media/

Personally i would prefer to see them introducing some kind of wimax in the space instead for true internet radio across the country. But that is a far off dream.

andynormancx
2009-09-07, 12:34
http://forum.beoworld.org/forums/p/27111/210723.aspx

Less than 6 years actually! I was surprised when I read it

FM is not going to be turned off by 2015, the 2015 date was just an aspiration. If you read elsewhere the aim is to only turn off FM when DAB matches the current FM geographic coverage, which is highly unlikely to happen by 2015.

pfarrell
2009-09-07, 12:37
andynormancx wrote:
> FM is not going to be turned off by 2015, the 2015 date was just an
> aspiration.

There is no point in arguing about when its going to happen. It is going
to happen. The die is cast, radio is dead.


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

Paul Webster
2009-09-07, 13:17
http://forum.beoworld.org/forums/p/27111/210723.aspx

Less than 6 years actually! I was surprised when I read it

If you only read the opening couple of posts on the B&O forum and decided that t all FM will be switched off in the UK by then ... then you would be correct to be surprised.
I have read the full report - which is why I referred to national radio.
Look at section 3b to understand why.
The erratum on the page linked to below refers to what I sent them on the day of its publication (I don't know if I was the first to point it out - but I suspect I was).
http://www.culture.gov.uk/what_we_do/broadcasting/6216.aspx

Even then .. the figures (50% digital take-up) are highly aspirational.

toby10
2009-09-07, 18:30
In the future we will hopefully don't suffer these low bit-rates streams, thats about the only thing thats makes we want FM at home, AM is dead in sweden nobody uses it.

The usability limit for me is 128kps mp3 or 96kbps WMA............

Completely agree. For *me* if I wanted AM/FM outside of the car I have 6 other devices throughout my home to choose from, and I never use any of them. The Internet Radio and Music Service streams are my music alternatives to the usual crap played on FM that I specifically avoid with my SB players.

That's why, for me, cluttering the hardware and menu's and buttons to receive the very source I'm trying to avoid with these players just seems pointless. But then I can see where others would want OTA broadcast capabilities.

EowynCarter
2009-09-08, 02:09
FM is the standard in france.
AM is not really used anymore. We only use it at our holiday house, because fm won't work well there.

Mark Lanctot
2009-09-08, 12:52
You could also plug that portable radio into the line-in on the Boom or Radio.

Wonder why no one commented on this - Radio has a line in, you can simply plug an FM radio into it. Use whatever radio you like as long as it has some sort of line out. Really easy, I have an ancient Walkman (remember those?) that would work fine.

I'm glad there's no tuner in Radio, I haven't listened to conventional radio in at least 15 years. It would have been a neat gadget to play with but I would never have used it.

Paul Webster
2009-09-08, 14:39
Wonder why no one commented on this - Radio has a line in, you can simply plug an FM radio into it.

I have tried to make a few points concerning bandwidth consumption and existing Logitech products that have conventional radio - and no-one has commented (for or against as far as I remember).

However, I'll comment on this one for you ... LineIn ... how about because it would be cumbersome to control and would look messy.

My guess is that internet radio listening (not music services like Pandora/Aupeo/Spotify/last.fm) is not as common here (forum members and perhaps Squeezebox users in general) as in other places.
I see this audience as much more dedicated to listening to what has always been the strong point - locally stored music.

As for the general thought expressed in this thread and elsewhere about FM dying away - my guess is that it varies by market ...
within the UK it is true that "digital" is growing.
In UK FM/AM listening has, in the last year or so, dropped from 69.5% to 66.2% according to the figures collected by RAJAR.
Internet radio listening is reported as growing by 10% over the same period ... from 2% to 2.2%
I know that stats can hide all sorts of things - e.g. how they are collected, what sources are considered internet (e.g. last.fm probably not included) - but there is a long way to go before internet radio listening catches broadcast (if we add over-the-air broadcast by DAB and radio via digital TV then it grows to over 80%).
Source: http://www.rajar.co.uk/listening/quarterly_listening.php

How do the figures stack up for other countries?

andynormancx
2009-09-08, 15:09
In UK FM/AM listening has, in the last year or so, dropped from 69.5% to 66.2% according to the figures collected by RAJAR.
Internet radio listening is reported as growing by 10% over the same period ... from 2% to 2.2%
I know that stats can hide all sorts of things - e.g. how they are collected, what sources are considered internet (e.g. last.fm probably not included) - but there is a long way to go before internet radio listening catches broadcast (if we add over-the-air broadcast by DAB and radio via digital TV then it grows to over 80%).
In the same period that Internet grew by 0.2%, DAB grew by 2.1%. So it would appear at the moment that people are leaving FM/AM for DAB, rather than for the Internet.

iPhone
2009-09-08, 19:11
What is the big deal about FM? Does everybody want it to have a record player and 8 track also?

Please name me one Squeezebox that has a FM Tuner? You can't because Slim Devices/Logitech builds Network Media Players (NMP). They concentrate their efforts on building the best NMP they can and not trying to compromise by building an all-in-one. The reasons for this are probably limitless. I can't speak for them, but I bet part of it is because they are not after the mass all-in-one market. The are after the NMP market!

It has Internet Radio and if your favorite station isn't streaming then you need to be yelling at them, not Logitech!

Paul Webster
2009-09-09, 00:23
What is the big deal about FM? Does everybody want it to have a record player and 8 track also?

Please read the thread - particularly references to bandwidth limits (some people have caps) and audio quality (FM almost always better than the internet stream).


Please name me one Squeezebox that has a FM Tuner? You can't

Of course - that is the point of the suggestion.


because Slim Devices/Logitech builds Network Media Players (NMP).

However, Logitech does build somewhat similar devices with FM radio built-in.
See this old post and see if you spot the similarity with Boom
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=334647&postcount=21


They concentrate their efforts on building the best NMP they can and not trying to compromise by building an all-in-one. The reasons for this are probably limitless. I can't speak for them, but I bet part of it is because they are not after the mass all-in-one market. The are after the NMP market!

The last time that this topic was discussed at any length was around the Boom release. My contention is that by finally providing a device with built-in speakers (Boom) Logitech/Slimdevices chose to enter a different market sector and many (perhaps most) of the vendors in that sector have at least one model internet radio with FM.
The Squeezebox Radio brings the price down - which puts it even deeper into the regular consumer market area. The name "Radio" may well lead some people to think that it has conventional radio capability. Many of the devices that it will share shelf-space with do have it - see my blog for a few of them.



It has Internet Radio and if your favorite station isn't streaming then you need to be yelling at them, not Logitech!

I do a lot of spare time stuff with internet radio - and am in contact with broadcasters and station list providers (for example, I am an infrequent editor on the RadioTime lists that are used to power your Squeezebox).

All of the FM stations that I listen to are available via internet - see the rest of the thread for some of the reasons why I still use FM at home.

andynormancx
2009-09-09, 01:59
Please read the thread - particularly references to bandwidth limits (some people have caps) and audio quality (FM almost always better than the internet stream).

Exactly. When I am working at home (which is most of the time at the moment), I listen to the radio at least 6 hours a day.

I want to listen to the radio via my Squeezeboxes, otherwise I'd have to have a radio sat next to each of my 3 Squeezeboxes, which would be very silly.

In theory I could listen to an Internet stream.

96kb/s x 6 hours = 1 GB per day

That amount to about 20GB a month, but unfortunately my day time limit for the month is 8GB. Every 1GB over the limit I have to pay extra.

Edit:
-----------------------
Radish helpfully pointed out later in the thread that I got my maths wrong. In fact 96kb/s is 253MB per 6 hour day, which is 5GB/month.

I've since checked that the stream in question is in fact 128k, meaning it is more like 350MB/day, 7GB a month).
-----------------------

So Internet radio is a non starter.

However I don't want Logitech to put an FM tuner into any of their players, that would be far to inflexible and hard for them to get one that actually had good quality.

What I think they should have done instead was add an analogue audio in to the Touch. The Touch could then have sampled the audio in and streamed it to the other players, like Sonos do.

As I understand it, in theory, someone could plug a device into the USB on the Touch to do the sampling and write some code for the Touch to stream it to the other players. It is just a shame they didn't just add a pair of phono (RCA) plugs and a ADC.

My solution for the moment is a DAB radio plugged into my servers audio in, with the wavin plugin. That works well enough, but it would have been even better if it was a built in feature to the Touch.

funkstar
2009-09-09, 07:30
I just know I'm going to get angry replies to this, but here goes...

If you are concerned about bandwidth caps because of your ISP, then get a better ISP!

Stop paying the smallest amount possible for broadband and actually look at what you are getting for your money instead. I know this is the case in the UK, but there has been a race to the bottom as far as price is concerned, and when that happens, everything else suffers.

andynormancx
2009-09-09, 07:39
I just know I'm going to get angry replies to this, but here goes...

If you are concerned about bandwidth caps because of your ISP, then get a better ISP!

Stop paying the smallest amount possible for broadband and actually look at what you are getting for your money instead. I know this is the case in the UK, but there has been a race to the bottom as far as price is concerned, and when that happens, everything else suffers.
Ah, I'm afraid in my case you couldn't be more wrong.

I pay a premium price (£47 a month) for my ADSL because they give me a block of 32 IP addresses and outside of the hours of 9am-5pm their download limits are very generous (with truely unlimited upload limits). They are also the best ISP that I have used at badgering BT when things go wrong.

The only downside is that they have low daytime download limits (I get 8GB a month for my £47).

Mnyb
2009-09-09, 07:45
I just know I'm going to get angry replies to this, but here goes...

If you are concerned about bandwidth caps because of your ISP, then get a better ISP!

Stop paying the smallest amount possible for broadband and actually look at what you are getting for your money instead. I know this is the case in the UK, but there has been a race to the bottom as far as price is concerned, and when that happens, everything else suffers.

Rigth on the money :) on the cheapest services you can also enjoy horrible suport, traffic shaping/throttling and bad DNS service.

funkstar
2009-09-09, 07:59
Ah, I'm afraid in my case you couldn't be more wrong.
I knew at least one person would come out with something similar.

Your ISP is still not providing you with a service you need, that might be the only thing they are lacking in, but they are not the perfect ISP for you.

You have to admit though, the vast majority of people complaining about caps or unreliable internet, have signed up one of the cheaper providers. If they haven't, and are still suffering from poor service and very low caps, they need to change ISPs.

Simple as that in my opinion.

andynormancx
2009-09-09, 08:08
Your ISP is still not providing you with a service you need, that might be the only thing they are lacking in, but they are not the perfect ISP for you.

How exactly do you know what the perfect ISP for me is ? You have no idea what my requirement for an ISP are.

I don't need large amounts of day time downloads, so the only weak point of my ISPs offering is not an issue. If I needed large amounts of daytime downloads I would re-enable my second ADSL line that I used to have from a second supplier specifically for day time downloads (when I needed them).

andynormancx
2009-09-09, 08:09
You have to admit though, the vast majority of people complaining about caps or unreliable internet, have signed up one of the cheaper providers.
On that point I can agree with you. However it is as much the ISPs' faults, given there appallingly inaccurate use of "unlimited".

funkstar
2009-09-09, 08:40
How exactly do you know what the perfect ISP for me is ? You have no idea what my requirement for an ISP are.

I don't need large amounts of day time downloads, so the only weak point of my ISPs offering is not an issue. If I needed large amounts of daytime downloads I would re-enable my second ADSL line that I used to have from a second supplier specifically for day time downloads (when I needed them).
Woa there a minute. I thought you were complaining that the Radio isn't have an FM tuner because or your limit of 8GB/month of day time downloads. Turns that isn't an issue to you, although you did cast it up as a negative, even though it doesn't effect you. Surely you can see where the assumption on my part comes from?

I apologise if I mistook what you said and you took offence to it.

radish
2009-09-09, 08:42
96kb/s x 6 hours = 1 GB per day


Umm... 96kb/s is ~42MB/hour. So 253MB/day, 5GB/month (assuming 6 hours per work day). Still not great if you only have an 8GB(!) cap.

andynormancx
2009-09-09, 08:51
Woa there a minute. I thought you were complaining that the Radio isn't have an FM tuner because or your limit of 8GB/month of day time downloads. Turns that isn't an issue to you, although you did cast it up as a negative, even though it doesn't effect you. Surely you can see where the assumption on my part comes from?


I wasn't complaining about anything and I specifically said I did NOT want Logitech to include an FM tuner in any Squeezebox product.

What I did say is that I currently use the wavin plugin to stream my DAB tuner to all my Squeezeboxes and that it would have been handy if the Touch included an analogue audio in that could do what the wavin plugin does.

andynormancx
2009-09-09, 08:57
Umm... 96kb/s is ~42MB/hour. So 253MB/day, 5GB/month (assuming 6 hours per work day). Still not great if you only have an 8GB(!) cap.
Ah yes, sorry about that. Clearly screwed up my maths there somewhere.

But as you say at 250MB/day it would cause a bit of a problem if I didn't have the wavin alternative (and I've just checked that the stream is in fact 128k, meaning it is more like 350MB/day, 7GB a month).

Paul Webster
2009-09-09, 11:06
Sorry - couldn't resist this ... Apple just announced that they are putting FM radio into iPod ;)

iPhone
2009-09-09, 13:11
Please read the thread - particularly references to bandwidth limits (some people have caps) and audio quality (FM almost always better than the internet stream).

All of the FM stations that I listen to are available via internet - see the rest of the thread for some of the reasons why I still use FM at home.

Bandwidth limitation are not my problem nor Logitech's for that matter. And most people that listen to FM will already have an FM tuner. And if its that important to them, I believe that one can add an FM Tuner Card to ones PC and use the proper plugin to have FM radio sent to any player on the Network?

Problem solved without adding the cost of a Tuner to the players I buy!

Once I had the ability to listen to "My Music" all day without changing a CD, I no longer needed the commercials and crap the radio stations push all day anyway.

snakester
2009-09-09, 13:15
Why? Do you have a local FM station that is not available via the Internet Radio menu?

Maybe he's a sports fan too... for whatever reason all my local sports radio stations pre-empt their online stream when actual game playbyplay comes on.

rickwookie
2009-09-09, 14:08
I currently use the wavin plugin to stream my DAB tuner to all my Squeezeboxes and that it would have been handy if the Touch included an analogue audio in that could do what the wavin plugin does.

From http://www.logitechsqueezebox.com/products/squeezebox-radio.html:
Line-in cord lets you plug in your iPod
Do you want to listen to your iPod tunes in any room? Simple. Your Squeezebox Radio comes complete with a cord and built-in jack for your iPod or other MP3 player. Just plug it in and you’re ready to rock.

and from http://www.logitechsqueezebox.com/products/squeezebox-radio.html#tab2:
under Technical Specifications, General:
■Line-in via 3.5 mm stereo jack

I know you wrote "would have been handy if the Touch included an analogue audio in" but since this is the Squeezebox Radio forum I wondered if that's what you meant.

Why that doesn't also appear to be on the Touch though is a mystery to me. Sonos have had that from day one. From http://www.sonos.com/howitworks/music/collection/:
Music from your favorite audio sources

Want to listen to the music that's on your friend's iPod? Have a favorite CD that isn't ripped? It's a breeze with Sonos because we added analog line-in jacks to the back of every ZonePlayer. Simply connect any external audio source with a line-out jack to any ZonePlayer and you can play all that music (or audio) in every room. Now grab your Controller, select Line-In Sources from your Music Menu and everything is ready to play.

funkstar
2009-09-09, 15:12
Why that doesn't also appear to be on the Touch though is a mystery to me. Sonos have had that from day one. From http://www.sonos.com/howitworks/music/collection/:
Music from your favorite audio sources
It's included on the Radio and Boom because they are self contained units with speakers, so can completely replace a stereo system. Touch needs something with an amp and speakers, so you are as well just connecting the iPod directly to the amp/speakers or stereo.

What is possible with Touch is to have a USB device that can capture audio, and have that broadcast round the network. I believe the audio input on Radio can also do this, it's just the software hasn't been written yet. So you could plug a FM radio into a SB Radio in the study and have it play in the bedroom..... eventually.

andynormancx
2009-09-09, 15:24
What is possible with boom is to have a USB device that can capture audio, and have that broadcast round the network. I believe the audio input on Radio can also do this, it's just the software hasn't been written yet. So you could plug a FM radio into a SB Radio in the study and have it play in the bedroom..... eventually.

I think when you were talking about the Boom there you meant the Touch.

funkstar
2009-09-09, 15:29
I think when you were talking about the Boom there you meant the Touch.
Damn. You are right. Thanks.

I should go to bed.

aubuti
2009-09-09, 20:21
From http://www.logitechsqueezebox.com/products/squeezebox-radio.html:
Line-in cord lets you plug in your iPod
Do you want to listen to your iPod tunes in any room? Simple. Your Squeezebox Radio comes complete with a cord and built-in jack for your iPod or other MP3 player. Just plug it in and you’re ready to rock.

and from http://www.logitechsqueezebox.com/products/squeezebox-radio.html#tab2:
under Technical Specifications, General:
■Line-in via 3.5 mm stereo jack

I know you wrote "would have been handy if the Touch included an analogue audio in" but since this is the Squeezebox Radio forum I wondered if that's what you meant.

Why that doesn't also appear to be on the Touch though is a mystery to me. Sonos have had that from day one. From http://www.sonos.com/howitworks/music/collection/:
Music from your favorite audio sources

Want to listen to the music that's on your friend's iPod? Have a favorite CD that isn't ripped? It's a breeze with Sonos because we added analog line-in jacks to the back of every ZonePlayer. Simply connect any external audio source with a line-out jack to any ZonePlayer and you can play all that music (or audio) in every room. Now grab your Controller, select Line-In Sources from your Music Menu and everything is ready to play.
I think you're misunderstanding the SB Radio's line-in capability. Either that, or I'm misunderstanding your post.

Unlike the Sonos, the line-in on the radio does *not* stream that source to other players. It simply plays it through the SB Radio's speaker. So why does the marketing copy say you can "listen to your iPod tunes in any room"? I suppose they mean you can pick up the SB Radio and iPod and carry it to any room. I think it is *way* too easy for someone to misunderstand what the capabilities really are.

andynormancx
2009-09-10, 01:03
Unlike the Sonos, the line-in on the radio does *not* stream that source to other players. It simply plays it through the SB Radio's speaker. So why does the marketing copy say you can "listen to your iPod tunes in any room"? I suppose they mean you can pick up the SB Radio and iPod and carry it to any room. I think it is *way* too easy for someone to misunderstand what the capabilities really are.

I suspect it is a case of Marketing confusing what the Radio does and what it might one day be able to do. Caleb has said that the Radio should be able, with some more coding, to stream its line in port:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=455816&postcount=9

Paul Webster
2009-09-10, 01:28
Bandwidth limitation are not my problem nor Logitech's for that matter. And most people that listen to FM will already have an FM tuner. And if its that important to them, I believe that one can add an FM Tuner Card to ones PC and use the proper plugin to have FM radio sent to any player on the Network?

However, someone who buys a self-contained SB-Boom or SB-Radio and who listens to radio (internet or regular) may well be the ones who would not want a PC running all of the time. A mode of operation further endorsed by the Touch ability to play music from local SD/USB device.


Problem solved without adding the cost of a Tuner to the players I buy!

No problem - make a new model and call it the SB Radio+ and don't buy it yourself.


Once I had the ability to listen to "My Music" all day without changing a CD, I no longer needed the commercials and crap the radio stations push all day anyway.

Ah - so perhaps we need more input from those that do use a radio.
Maybe it is a UK (or even Europe) thing but we have stations that do not play many adverts. You have PRS stations in USA with very few adverts. I can get 5 FM radio stations with no advertising - 3 of which I listen to quite a lot. My guess is that most people in USA who can get a PRS station probably find only one or two. If so - then it is a different experience.

As a reminder:
Line-in solution.
Boom and Radio have the facility - but control limited (tuning, volume, on/off).
No relay around the house to other SB devices (but potentially possible with firmware upgrade to Touch)

Sonos has line-in facility - with relay around the house to multiple players (same issue with control of the radio)

Roku:
Soundbridge Radio (FM and AM along with regular facilities)

Reciva powered devices:
Many brands with FM (in addition to streaming) including
Tangent (I have one), Lenco, DNT, Revo, Roberts, Sangean, Sanyo, Sonoro, Tevion

Frontier-Silicon / vTuner powered devices:
Many brands with FM (in addition to streaming) including
Denon, Grace, Pure, Revo, Roberts, Teac, Tivoli

Plus Philips and Sony

There are probably others that I have forgotten.


Now - if the USB input of Touch could take a USB radio (such as Griffin RadioShark or AVerMedia USB Radio) and control it - and even better ... could make the available to other SB devices as an audio source then there is a good solution. Such an approach is now discussed elsewhere in this forum.
It would require Touch (more expensive that Radio) and a 3rd-party device (perhaps 30 - 50 USD) but it could be a way to test the market if Logitech Streaming Media Division do not believe that there is sufficient demand (they could ask Logitech non-streaming folks how their devices with FM are selling and if the radio part is used by the iPod dock generation)

dave77
2009-09-10, 01:29
Maybe he's a sports fan too... for whatever reason all my local sports radio stations pre-empt their online stream when actual game playbyplay comes on.

Is that the same everywhere, thought it was just my team who were mean, they only broadcast over DAB (no FM) during matches and turn their Internet stream to music.

If a mobile phone had a radio, can you plug it in via 'line-in' and listen to the phone's FM radio?

rickwookie
2009-09-10, 05:39
I think you're misunderstanding the SB Radio's line-in capability. Either that, or I'm misunderstanding your post.

Unlike the Sonos, the line-in on the radio does *not* stream that source to other players. It simply plays it through the SB Radio's speaker. So why does the marketing copy say you can "listen to your iPod tunes in any room"? I suppose they mean you can pick up the SB Radio and iPod and carry it to any room. I think it is *way* too easy for someone to misunderstand what the capabilities really are.

Oh yeah that's very misleading! I genuinely thought that meant streaming. Stating that you can listen to your iPod tunes in any room when they mean in the same way that you can already listen to your iPod tunes in any room (or any location) by simply moving your iPod around is really naff!

snakester
2009-09-10, 17:20
Is that the same everywhere, thought it was just my team who were mean, they only broadcast over DAB (no FM) during matches and turn their Internet stream to music.

If a mobile phone had a radio, can you plug it in via 'line-in' and listen to the phone's FM radio?

It tends to be a licensing issue as far as I understand. The sports leagues hold on to the online broadcasting rights, requiring all their affiliates to blank the audio out on their online stream or put alternate programming on during live games.

Still can't quite explain why your team plays on DAB (I'm guessing from the Googling I did this is the european version of digital radio) but not regular FM. That's weird.

dave77
2009-09-11, 01:23
Still can't quite explain why your team plays on DAB (I'm guessing from the Googling I did this is the european version of digital radio) but not regular FM. That's weird.

Sorry, the station doesn't broadcast on FM whatsoever, it's a DAB only station.

peterw
2009-09-12, 22:03
FM is rated at 96K (equivalent bit-rate), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_rate, So it's not great to begin with.

It'd be nice to see a citation for that comparison. Who says FM is ~ 96k? How'd they decide that?


Here is some conflicting information, the wiki on HD radio stats FM equivalent bit-rate is 25-50k, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Radio#FM

I am still waiting for HD radio receivers to come down in price.

"HD" in HD Radio does NOT stand for High Definition, it stands for Hybrid Digital. I expect they shortened the phrase so that people who care about quality would take them seriously.

pfarrell
2009-09-12, 22:25
peterw wrote:
> "HD" in HD Radio does NOT stand for High Definition, it stands for
> Hybrid Digital. I expect they shortened the phrase so that people who
> care about quality would take them seriously.

I believe that they used the term HD radio on purpose to make people
associate it with HD TV. Its not at all the same. Its about stuffing
more channels of Music/ad streams into fixed bandwidth.

I expect HD radio to be far less successful than XM and Sirius were, and
by all measures, even the combined XM+Sirius is a failure.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

toby10
2009-09-13, 08:50
96kb/s x 6 hours = 1 GB per day

That amount to about 20GB a month, but unfortunately my day time limit for the month is 8GB. Every 1GB over the limit I have to pay extra.......

I think your usage estimate for 96k streaming is almost 3 times as much as it would really be based on this post:
One hour of streaming radio @ 128k = aprox 50 mb per hour
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=60429

EDIT: Ooops...I see this was covered already. :)

vw195
2009-09-13, 09:46
It'd be nice to see a citation for that comparison. Who says FM is ~ 96k? How'd they decide that?


Attached is an interesting link that states:
You can estimate the approximate Audio information [1] content of FM by using the bandwidth and dynamic range. FM pretty much tops out at about 15K and the dynamic range is about 70db. Each bit represents approx 6db so we need just under 12 bits and a sampling rate of 30K.

Thus = 12 x 30,000 x 2 (2 channels) = 720Kbps (CD is 1411kbps) that is uncompressed

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f133/radio-bitrates-366117/

Seems to me that FM would need at least 128kbps with MP3 to achieve an equivalent. Why limit oneself streaming when a higher quality can be achieved (if not for bandwidth constraints)

ccrome2
2009-09-13, 21:48
Since the distortions of terrestrial FM and perceptual coding (like MP3) are so different, it's very difficult to draw equivalences. It is better to loose some bandwith, or have some wierd digital distortion? It's a difficult question to answer.

I'd much rather listen to a 8kHz bandwidth, nicely encoded signal than a 20kHz bandwith terribly encoded signal. So, if you want, say, 64kbps for some reason, I've found it's much better to downsample from 44100 to maybe 8000, then encode, rather than try to use a low bitrate at high sample rate.

The difference between 8000 and 44100 seems like a *TON*, and it is a lot, but not as much as you think. Since you hear logarithmically, you're really talking about about a 2.5 octave difference. You hear a total of about 10 octaves (from 20 to 20000 Hz), so you're only knocking off the top 25% of your hearing range.

Bottom line is, the 'FM equivalent' or 'AM equivalent' are really just best guesses, and not something you can count on.

In order to get real, quantitative comparisons, you need to do MOS testing, which is pretty expensive and time consuming. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_opinion_score

I bet somebody's done it, I just don't have the results handy.

pfarrell
2009-09-13, 22:20
ccrome2 wrote:
> The difference between 8000 and 44100 seems like a *TON*, and it is a
> lot, but not as much as you think. Since you hear logarithmically,
> you're really talking about about a 2.5 octave difference. You hear a
> total of about 10 octaves (from 20 to 20000 Hz), so you're only knocking
> off the top 25% of your hearing range.
>
> Bottom line is, the 'FM equivalent' or 'AM equivalent' are really just
> best guesses, and not something you can count on.

On the best of days, with the best transmission, FM signals are limited
to a max of 17kHz. The remaining 3kHz were thrown out when the
modulation for stereo FM was defined back in the 50s.

There was a time when FM stations would try to put out a reasonably
clean 20hz to 17kHz signal, and there were audiophile tuners that worked
hard at picking it all up. But in the past decade (or more) most
stations have used the top to transmit assorted things like traffic
information, Muzak, call letters, etc. and have gladly given away any
pretense of sending out a real 20-17kHz signal.

The primary audience for FM radio is in your car. With road noise, wind
noise, etc., there is no way that even a 70 dB signal can be heard in a car.

The stations all want maximum range, and part of getting that is to
compress the hell out of the signal.

Perhaps in some other countries, there is still serious musical quality
in an FM signal, but its not been true in the US for two or more decades.

When I was a DJ in the 70s, we used LPs and carts for music, jingles,
etc. A radio station turntable and cartridge is nothing like a modern
audiophile turntable. No $500 cartridge would last one shift of the DJ
with all the back and forth, drop cues, etc. that was SOP in a station.

I too would love to know what the best of the stations actually
broadcast in the late 80s.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

Paul Webster
2009-09-17, 15:23
I hope people don't mind too much - but to further support the case ... here is another one with Internet radio and FM. It was launched today (for shipment in mid-October) - the Pure Sensia

5.7-inch touchscreen
Twitter, Facebook, Weather
2x15W speakers
UPnP / Internet radio / FM (and DAB/DAB+ for parts of Europe and Australia/Asia)
Optional iPod dock and battery pack

http://dabdig.blogspot.com/2009/09/touchscreens-are-in-fashion-pure-sensia.html

Doesn't have the svelte look of the Squeezebox Touch ... same price though.

dave77
2009-09-17, 16:22
http://dabdig.blogspot.com/2009/09/touchscreens-are-in-fashion-pure-sensia.html

Doesn't have the svelte look of the Squeezebox Touch ... same price though.

Looks great! Definitely considering that rather than a SB Radio

epoch1970
2009-09-18, 06:28
It's called Radio so it should have radio capability. FM radio is far from dead and anyway it is better to have choice.
IMO expecting buyers for this device to plug something in via line-in is ridiculous.

Also I have rarely in my life come across a major radio station that went completely blank for more than a few minutes. For users relying on alarms, FM radio could be a very safe source. If I am not in error the Radio can have backup battery power so this combination would be quite rugged.

(I'm not a buyer for a product like that. Smallish screen (I have a Controller I know what to expect) and mono, plus I already have a Boom --along with the old alarm clock I kept, just in case.)

Edit: one good thing, however: there is a volume rotary button. Still not the largest one on the device, but it's there.

dave77
2009-09-18, 06:32
It's called Radio so it should have radio capability. FM radio is far from dead and anyway it is better to have choice.
IMHO expecting buyers for this device to plugin something via line-in is ridiculous.

Totally agree, calling it 'Squeezebox Radio' will surely mislead people

eap
2009-09-18, 06:37
Totally agree, calling it 'Squeezebox Radio' will surely mislead people

Arent' all the FM stations available under internet radio/local stations. Or put in any city to see FM in other cities?

That's how my duet works. No need for FM tuner -- just use the FM via internet radio.

dave77
2009-09-18, 06:47
Arent' all the FM stations available under internet radio/local stations. Or put in any city to see FM in other cities?

That's how my duet works. No need for FM tuner -- just use the FM via internet radio.

I doubt all FM stations broadcast over internet yet, even if they do local sports broadcasts don't go over the internet as mentioned earlier.

funkstar
2009-09-18, 10:49
It's called Radio so it should have radio capability.
But is does do Radio, internet Radio :P

The pure does look interesting, but it is about £90 more expensive than the Squeezebox Radio and won't let you access any of the premium radio services as far as I can tell (Pandora, Last.FM, Rhapsody, Napster, Deezer, etc.)

eap
2009-09-18, 11:11
I doubt all FM stations broadcast over internet yet, even if they do local sports broadcasts don't go over the internet as mentioned earlier.

So if my local FM station broadcasts the Philadelphia Eagles football games, I will not be able to hear that via the Internet stream of that station? They black it out?

iPhone
2009-09-18, 11:21
So if my local FM station broadcasts the Philadelphia Eagles football games, I will not be able to hear that via the Internet stream of that station? They black it out?

I don't do much Internet radio listening. Is somebody saying that they don't stream any sports events like Football Games? Or that they just don't stream locally? If its they just don't stream locally IE Blackout, then look for it out of state. WIth Internet Radio one has the whole world to listen to.

And if its not streamed anywhere and one is local, then get an FM Tuner Card for ones PC and use the Plugin to stream the game to ones Squeezeboxes.