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ste1
2009-09-04, 13:57
Excited to read about the new SB Touch but now slightly confused as to what it does.

Is it a straight replacement for SB Classic - in that it is a single unit that needs to be hard wired to your amp/dac/speakers to play music?

If so - what is the point of the fancy touch screen interface as you'll rarely use it?

Was hoping it would replace my Duet so that the fancy touchscreen would be the controller that I could use to play around with whilst sitting on my sofa and there would be some sort of reciever device that plug into amp/dac/speakers decoding lovely 24/96 natively.

Thought the above set up is what 99% users would want????

Sorry guys - if I'm right then I am rather underwhelmed by this NPD.

pfarrell
2009-09-04, 14:02
ste1 wrote:
> Is it a straight replacement for SB Classic - in that it is a single
> unit that needs to be hard wired to your amp/dac/speakers to play
> music?
>
> If so - what is the point of the fancy touch screen interface as you'll
> rarely use it?

Yes, it can replace the SB classic, and you can use a remote, or the web
interface or the touch screen. Your choice. And you can do any of them
anytime you want.



> Was hoping it would replace my Duet so that the fancy touchscreen would
> be the controller that I could use to play around with whilst sitting on
> my sofa and there would be some sort of reciever device that pulg into
> amp/dac/speakers decoding lovely 24/96 natively.

You could/can do that. But to use the fancy touch screen, you need to
have the Touch within arm's reach of the sofa.

The Touch can do it all, or if you want, only part. I expect that it
will do a lot more as the software matures, folks right plugins, etc.

I use mine with it placed next to my keyboard of my main computer. I'm
driving some USB speakers, who take both their power and audio signal
from the USB plug.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

ste1
2009-09-04, 14:15
ste1 wrote:
> Is it a straight replacement for SB Classic - in that it is a single
> unit that needs to be hard wired to your amp/dac/speakers to play
> music?
>
> If so - what is the point of the fancy touch screen interface as you'll
> rarely use it?

Yes, it can replace the SB classic, and you can use a remote, or the web
interface or the touch screen. Your choice. And you can do any of them
anytime you want.



> Was hoping it would replace my Duet so that the fancy touchscreen would
> be the controller that I could use to play around with whilst sitting on
> my sofa and there would be some sort of reciever device that pulg into
> amp/dac/speakers decoding lovely 24/96 natively.

You could/can do that. But to use the fancy touch screen, you need to
have the Touch within arm's reach of the sofa.

The Touch can do it all, or if you want, only part. I expect that it
will do a lot more as the software matures, folks right plugins, etc.

I use mine with it placed next to my keyboard of my main computer. I'm
driving some USB speakers, who take both their power and audio signal
from the USB plug.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

Thanks for reply Pat.

I use SB in duet form as h-fi is out of arm's reach so controller is necessary.

Would have been great if the touch came in a handset/dock configuration with dock permanently attached to hi-fi like the duet reciever and touch used as controller.

I'd be queuing up now for that! As it is if I upgraded i'd still have to use the existing duet controller and the touch would just replace the reciever - rendering the touchscreen thing a bit of an expensive novelty.

Is there a Duet MkII on the horizon?

JJZolx
2009-09-04, 14:20
Is it a straight replacement for SB Classic - in that it is a single unit that needs to be hard wired to your amp/dac/speakers to play music?

Yes. It has no amplifier or speakers, so operates much the same as the SB Classic.


If so - what is the point of the fancy touch screen interface as you'll rarely use it?

Good question. It's there if you want to use it.


Was hoping it would replace my Duet so that the fancy touchscreen would be the controller that I could use to play around with whilst sitting on my sofa and there would be some sort of reciever device that plug into amp/dac/speakers decoding lovely 24/96 natively.

A touchscreen Controller would be nice.


Sorry guys - if I'm right then I am rather underwhelmed by this NPD.

Yeah, if you have an SB Classic or Duet, you won't necessarily be breaking down the doors to buy a Touch when it comes out.

JJZolx
2009-09-04, 14:21
Would have been great if the touch came in a handset/dock configuration with dock permanently attached to hi-fi like the duet reciever and touch used as controller.

Good idea, much different product.

Mark Miksis
2009-09-04, 14:32
Even if you prefer not to use the touch screen, the Touch still has added features beyond the Classic (such as a large color display and an internal SC sever) at the same price as the Classic.

pfarrell
2009-09-04, 14:32
ste1 wrote:
> Would have been great if the touch came in a handset/dock configuration
> with dock permanently attached to hi-fi like the duet reciever and touch
> used as controller.

Ideas similar to that were proposed during the early beta days.

> Is there a Duet MkII on the horizon?

Slim and Logitech have a long tradition of never commenting on future
products. And I neither know nor could say if I did know.

But, the Touch is based on code written in Lua, and so is the
Controller. It would not be much of a stretch to see that a Controller
MkII could have a touch screen, and very easily control the Receiver
part of a Duet. I have used mine to control even my Transporter.

The Touch's screen is a bunch bigger than the Controler's. So there
would have to be engineering and product managment tradeoffs as to how
to scale it up or down. But as a concept, it seems natural.

I bet if tons of Touch units are sold, it will spread to other things
like a Touch Boom or Touch Controller. Just guessing....

What people seem to forget is that the Controller is a serious computer,
lots of memory, wifi, screen, controls, etc. Its far more computer than
the PCs that I bought to do professional development in NT back in the 90s.

The Touch, if anything, is even more of a computer, with USB, SD slot,
WiFi, Samba, etc. In addition to the touch screen, which is big and
great looking.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

FredFredrickson
2009-09-04, 14:35
I would recommend getting a touch (or two) in places you'd expect to control it.. and then receivers to put with audio equiptment for audio. Or if you want the 24/96 then replace receivers with more touches.

OldCoder
2009-09-04, 15:20
If the touch is both controller and receiver, I would expect that the receiver would have a name on your network.

So, you probably could purchase two Touchs, and control one from the other.
Put one on your audio rack, and another at your listening chair, and you can do what you wish.

Especially if they offer a battery power supply accessory, to allow it to be moved about your listening area without a wall tether.

Perhaps even have something in the finished Touch settings to detect the battery supply, and establish if operation is "controller only", "receiver only" or "BOTH" mode to manage battery life.

iPhone
2009-09-04, 15:39
If the touch is both controller and receiver, I would expect that the receiver would have a name on your network.

So, you probably could purchase two Touchs, and control one from the other.
Put one on your audio rack, and another at your listening chair, and you can do what you wish.

Especially if they offer a battery power supply accessory, to allow it to be moved about your listening area without a wall tether.

Perhaps even have something in the finished Touch settings to detect the battery supply, and establish if operation is "controller only", "receiver only" or "BOTH" mode to manage battery life.

Just like your current players on the Network, Touch shows up in your drop down menu for selecting a player and name it whatever you want. Shows all players on the touch screen just like the SBC.

Touch is a player and a Controller at the same time. Again, it is a "Smart" player unlike the SB3. If one has two Touch units on the network, one has two players and two Controllers at the same time. Before Logitech asked for the PB1 Betas back (older CPU not going to be compatible with future firmware), I had it and the PB2. I had the PB1 wall mounted upstairs and the PB2 beside my desk. I was using the PB2 as a player at my desk while also using it to control the other players in the house until I went upstairs and started using the PB1 as a Controller. At anytime even while I was using PB2 as a Controller/Player, somebody could have been using the PB1 upstairs as a player and Controller at the same time as me.

Trust me that the surface has just been scratched with the uses for the Touch. Remember it has a small speaker, mike, and proximity sensor in it, Think Home Automation and In Room Communication/Music. Just wish it was water resistant so I could mount one in the wall at our front door step. This is the first home we have owned without a covered front door (European Manor design entrance). If things interface the way I think they will, I could see a Touch in the wall of each bedroom before we retire retire to the beach (I am retired waiting on better half).

autopilot
2009-09-05, 02:15
Obviously placement is the key, the great thing about the touch is the flexibility it gives you. Mine is on the side in my kitchen and i use the touch screen 90% of the time (web interface the rest) and its brilliant. At some point i may replace the SB3 in my HiFi rack and i wont be ableto use the touch screen, that will be most controlled with my Harmony One IR remote and SBC.

amcluesent
2009-09-05, 08:49
>Thought the above set up is what 99% users would want?<

Not for me, I already have a Controller, a Pronto and iPeng on the iPhone so I'm not really looking for a remote control capability.

I'd speculate that the penetration of iPod Touch/iPhone in the target market for the Touch is already pretty high, so it's not a good use case to create a hand-held option.

ste1
2009-09-05, 11:50
>Thought the above set up is what 99% users would want?<

Not for me, I already have a Controller, a Pronto and iPeng on the iPhone so I'm not really looking for a remote control capability.

I'd speculate that the penetration of iPod Touch/iPhone in the target market for the Touch is already pretty high, so it's not a good use case to create a hand-held option.

agree a significant chunk of users may use itouch/iphone.....but precisely because that is how most users want to conrol squeezebox - remotely! doesn't make sense to me to launch another touch screen sb interface that is much less useful becasue it is restricted in having to be located next to hifi/dac/speakers.

I'd hypothesise that the squeezebox touch used as a remote is a better way of controlling SB so would actually tempt itouch/iphone users to replace said gadgets as SB controlling mechanism as well as enticing duet users like me into an upgrade.

just feels as if logitech haven't done their market research properly on this one.

GeeJay
2009-09-06, 10:00
Yeah, but how are they going to compete with a $10 IPod/IPhone app? The market may be there, but if the profit isn't they're better off focusing on the players.

mherger
2009-09-06, 23:34
> Yeah, but how are they going to compete with a $10 IPod/IPhone app?

With dedicated/programmable hardware buttons?

autopilot
2009-09-07, 01:40
Yeah, but how are they going to compete with a $10 IPod/IPhone app? The market may be there, but if the profit isn't they're better off focusing on the players.

That's what people said about Sonos, but thats what they did.

As well has potential hardware buttons, a dedicated remote had a number of significant benefits and advantages. Faster start-up time for a example. Always on, always there.

technobear
2009-09-07, 02:19
... Always on, always there.

I'm glad someone bought this up. I've been meaning to ask.

How quickly does the Touch start up?

Does it need to be shut down before powering off?

What will it do after a power cut?

Being Linux, will it 'fsck' the external drive?

Is it best to leave it on permanently?

andynormancx
2009-09-07, 02:40
As well has potential hardware buttons, a dedicated remote had a number of significant benefits and advantages. Faster start-up time for a example. Always on, always there.

That should be a "potential for faster start-up time", as at the moment most of the time I pick up my dedicated remote (SBC) there is the annoying 40+ second wake up period vs the 2 second wake up of my iPhone/iPeng (or 10 seconds if iPeng isn't running).

MeSue
2009-09-07, 11:57
at the moment most of the time I pick up my dedicated remote (SBC) there is the annoying 40+ second wake up period vs the 2 second wake up of my iPhone/iPeng (or 10 seconds if iPeng isn't running).

You should check your power settings because that is not normal. My Controller is ready instantly when I pick it up, unless it has been left off the cradle without being touched for a very long time (an hour).

Settings > Advanced > Factory Test > Power Management

Mine is:
Sleep timeout 60
Suspend timeout 3600
Suspend Enabled ON
Wireless power save ON

andynormancx
2009-09-07, 12:25
You should check your power settings because that is not normal. My Controller is ready instantly when I pick it up, unless it has been left off the cradle without being touched for a very long time (an hour).
It _is_ normal if you use it the way I use it. I typically queue up a couple of albums or a couple of long radio shows at a time.

That means that the next time I pick up the Controller it is typically more than 1 hour later. Which means that it has gone into suspend, which then takes up to 60 seconds to wake from.

Sure I could change the suspend timeout to a couple of hours, but then battery life would suffer hugely and it would _still_ take a minute to wake if I left it sitting beyond 2 hours.

In comparison I don't need to do anything special to the iPhone/iPeng to make it both respond within a few seconds AND last a couple of days on a charge.

autopilot
2009-09-07, 13:11
It _is_ normal if you use it the way I use it. I typically queue up a couple of albums or a couple of long radio shows at a time.

That means that the next time I pick up the Controller it is typically more than 1 hour later. Which means that it has gone into suspend, which then takes up to 60 seconds to wake from.

Sure I could change the suspend timeout to a couple of hours, but then battery life would suffer hugely and it would _still_ take a minute to wake if I left it sitting beyond 2 hours.

In comparison I don't need to do anything special to the iPhone/iPeng to make it both respond within a few seconds AND last a couple of days on a charge.

I filed an enhancement request a long time back to make the suspend settings more intelligent and linked to what the player is doing. i.e. an option to not suspend while a playlist is active etc, and giving the user maybe 5 mins to start something else playing. If the player is off, might as well suspend after a shorter point of time.

corbey
2009-09-07, 13:59
Even if you prefer not to use the touch screen, the Touch still has added features beyond the Classic (such as a large color display and an internal SC sever) at the same price as the Classic.

An internal SC server? What does that mean? Can you attach a hard drive to it?

Mark Miksis
2009-09-07, 14:05
An internal SC server? What does that mean? Can you attach a hard drive to it?

Yes, exactly. Touch runs something we have internally been calling TinySC. Please see the many other threads in this forum with titles that either mention TinySC or USD drives for much more discussion.

CliffC
2009-09-07, 18:26
It _is_ normal if you use it the way I use it. I typically queue up a couple of albums or a couple of long radio shows at a time.

That means that the next time I pick up the Controller it is typically more than 1 hour later. Which means that it has gone into suspend, which then takes up to 60 seconds to wake from.

Sure I could change the suspend timeout to a couple of hours, but then battery life would suffer hugely and it would _still_ take a minute to wake if I left it sitting beyond 2 hours.

In comparison I don't need to do anything special to the iPhone/iPeng to make it both respond within a few seconds AND last a couple of days on a charge.

I use my system in a similar way so that is often well over an hour before I pick up the controller, and that long delay used to drive me crazy, especially when all I wanted to do was mute the system so I could answer the phone. So I experimented with all the various power settings and now have the controller configured so it runs for 12+ hours with Suspend disabled. The controller is instantly available when I need it, and it is rare that I have to put it back in the cradle before the end of the day. The key I think is setting all the screensavers to "Screen Off". Rarely picking up the controller actually helps because it means that most of the time it is sitting there with the screen off.

GeeJay
2009-09-07, 19:58
> Yeah, but how are they going to compete with a $10 IPod/IPhone app?

With dedicated/programmable hardware buttons?

Then it wouldn't be a Touch, would it?

I was responding to the post prior to mine commenting on Logitech missing the mark coming out with a product that wasn't, in essence, an IPod Touch dedicated to the Squeezebox line. Maybe that's coming, given they've laid the groundwork with this device, but I don't blame them for not going down that path right now. Apple has a very nice device already, and Pippin has developed a quite usable app for controlling players.

There are a number of things about the Controller I like better than the IPod/IPeng solution, but if I already had the IPod I wouldn't find much reason to spring for a dedicated device when I can get pretty much the same functionality with a $10 app. Now that I'm starting to get the hang of IPeng (I've been borrowing my daughter's IPod the past several weekends), I'm seriously considering springing for my own and mothballing the controller.

mherger
2009-09-07, 20:30
>> With dedicated/programmable hardware buttons?
>
> Then it wouldn't be a Touch, would it?

Why not? iPhone/iPod Touch have eg. volume buttons. In the first version
Apple thought this wasn't necessary. There's a good reason they added it
in later revisions.

GeeJay
2009-09-07, 20:44
I dunno...it's gonna take more than a few programmable buttons for me to get excited. It may need to be more in the software than the hardware. I'm getting used to IPeng, but if Logitech can come up with a software solution that blows that nice little app out of the water, then there may be something of value there for me.

The SB Touch, however, does have some nice hardware features that intrigue me. I'm glad Logitech went this route as opposed to just coming out with a touchscreen controller.

minky
2009-09-08, 02:02
Hold the phone.... USB speakers???? Audio and Power??

Thats great.

Almost meets my desperate need for a squeezebox with a built in amp to form a discreet in-ceiling system for the bathroom.....



ste1 wrote:
> Is it a straight replacement for SB Classic - in that it is a single
> unit that needs to be hard wired to your amp/dac/speakers to play
> music?
>
> If so - what is the point of the fancy touch screen interface as you'll
> rarely use it?

Yes, it can replace the SB classic, and you can use a remote, or the web
interface or the touch screen. Your choice. And you can do any of them
anytime you want.



> Was hoping it would replace my Duet so that the fancy touchscreen would
> be the controller that I could use to play around with whilst sitting on
> my sofa and there would be some sort of reciever device that pulg into
> amp/dac/speakers decoding lovely 24/96 natively.

You could/can do that. But to use the fancy touch screen, you need to
have the Touch within arm's reach of the sofa.

The Touch can do it all, or if you want, only part. I expect that it
will do a lot more as the software matures, folks right plugins, etc.

I use mine with it placed next to my keyboard of my main computer. I'm
driving some USB speakers, who take both their power and audio signal
from the USB plug.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

jonr71
2009-09-09, 09:24
I appreciate that there are a number of possible additional uses for the Touch that might emerge in the future and as a platform is has potential to transform the Boom and Duet with touchscreen functions.

On it's own, I see it as an SB4 rather than a new product.

I don't want to have to stand by my hifi pressing buttons on a touchscreen in order to get music going or to add to/amend a playlist etc. I want to be able to do this from the comfort of my chair. So as I have a Duet already, why should I buy anything other than another receiver and control it with my existing controller? (or for others who use iPeng - UDAP and a new receiver)

How visible is the screen from 10 feet away? If it is clear then I can see the value in having a cool looking display showing the music playing rather than having to use the controller.

And as Logitech has clearly seen the need to implement native 24/96 capability, we will probably see new versions of the receiver emerge soon so the musical reproduction should not be different in the long run.

For someone looking to get into this for the first time, I see the draw of a nice screen, but the idea of it does not seem to match the practicality for me.

pippin
2009-09-09, 09:49
As well has potential hardware buttons, a dedicated remote had a number of significant benefits and advantages. Faster start-up time for a example. Always on, always there.

Always on, always there. Hm. Like the SBC?
Agree on HW buttons, but for 50% of the use cases (Volume) that's even doable with the iPhone/iTouch (at least Gen 2).
Same for always on. iPhone OS has evolved a bit.
Need to get the new iPeng version out :-)

pippin
2009-09-09, 09:51
>> With dedicated/programmable hardware buttons?
>
> Then it wouldn't be a Touch, would it?

Why not? iPhone/iPod Touch have eg. volume buttons. In the first version
Apple thought this wasn't necessary. There's a good reason they added it
in later revisions.

Agree. I believe the Sonos solution is not too bad.

Yet I DO believe PROGRAMMABLE buttons on a touch screen device ARE nonsense.
The better idea is to think about a different kind of screen saver....

Zten
2009-09-09, 14:14
I bought a SB2 many years ago. I do love it. I use the IR remote when inside the house. When listening to tunes outside on my outdoor speakers, I use the Nokia internet tablet as a remote. I have seen the SB3 come out, the Transporter, the Duet, the Boom, nothing seemed to be a big enough pull for me to upgrade until this. I have several questions I have not been able to find answers to:

1) Still a 4.3" screen is pretty small. Is it the same 4.3" screen that is used in most portable GPS devices? I looks like it is not from the pictures.
2) What is the aspect ratio and resolution of the screen?
3) When will it be available (best guess?)
4) How much? Some said it will be same price a SB classic? is that $299?
5) I have not upgraded my slim server for many years. I have the opinion of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I assume this will require upgrade to the latest "squeeze center". Will my 4 year old SB2 still be compatible when I do this?
6) Will I be able to stream the wife's photos to this thing when it is in standby?


Thanks for the help.

MeSue
2009-09-09, 16:41
1) no idea
2) 480x272 pixels (widescreen)
3) Sometimes in December is all that has been announced.
4) Yes, $299 MSRP
5) The Touch currently works with 7.4 betas, but I think 8.0 might be the minimum version for Touch when it ships. As far as I know, Squeezebox Server 7.4 still works with all the old players, but some of the newest features may not be supported on the older players (features those players never had anyway). Someone else can probably say more about this, but I have a SB2 and it works with 7.4.
6) Pictures on Flickr, SD card, and USB drives are working now. I think it's in the plans to support pictures from a folder on the server machine--I hope so.

Mnyb
2009-09-09, 21:09
I bought a SB2 many years ago. I do love it. I use the IR remote when inside the house. When listening to tunes outside on my outdoor speakers, I use the Nokia internet tablet as a remote. I have seen the SB3 come out, the Transporter, the Duet, the Boom, nothing seemed to be a big enough pull for me to upgrade until this. I have several questions I have not been able to find answers to:

1) Still a 4.3" screen is pretty small. Is it the same 4.3" screen that is used in most portable GPS devices? I looks like it is not from the pictures.
2) What is the aspect ratio and resolution of the screen?
3) When will it be available (best guess?)
4) How much? Some said it will be same price a SB classic? is that $299?
5) I have not upgraded my slim server for many years. I have the opinion of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I assume this will require upgrade to the latest "squeeze center". Will my 4 year old SB2 still be compatible when I do this?
6) Will I be able to stream the wife's photos to this thing when it is in standby?


Thanks for the help.

4 This is only true if you live in the US in the rest of the world Touch is more expensive than SB3 on logitech's own websites !? They apparently failed to coordinate this marketing effort worldwide.

In general Touch cost more than SB3 , but there is an exception in the US they have the same price.

Soo can we please stop saying that it is the same price SB3 & Touch, this is in most cases not the truth.
I've seen logitech employees stating this untruth on this forum as it were a fact.

I'm not whining about the price difference EU vs US (we have other treads for that ) only the relative price SB3 vs Touch.
visiting some of logitechs EU sites, I can see that in general an Touch is 20% to 25% more than an SB3 that compared to what the SB3 cost in the same place.

That said I don't think it's expensive considering audio performance and its other abilities it's a god deal anyway.
I would get one for the 24/96 digital out and more native formats meaning less transcoding done on my server. And it is an exciting platform i think we will see many interesting things from logitech or third party developers in the future.

aubuti
2009-09-10, 06:54
4 This is only true if you live in the US in the rest of the world Touch is more expensive than SB3 on logitech's own websites !? They apparently failed to coordinate this marketing effort worldwide.

In general Touch cost more than SB3 , but there is an exception in the US they have the same price.

Soo can we please stop saying that it is the same price SB3 & Touch, this is in most cases not the truth.
Yes, the SB3 and Touch are currently listed at the same price ($299) on Logitech's US web sites, but (1) the SB3 is available for less than that at many (most?) online retailers (eg, $270 at Amazon and J&R), and (2) don't be surprised if Logitech's SB3 US price drops once the Touch actually begins shipping.

Zten
2009-09-10, 07:38
[QUOTE=Mnyb;456800]
In general Touch cost more than SB3 , but there is an exception in the US they have the same price.
[QUOTE]

COST wise, the 4.3" widescreen 480x272 LCD is actually quite an inexpensive commodity. It is NOT high resolution. its is very average. Not sure about Logitech's supply chain power, but I would think they should be able to get this display for significanlty lower cost than the VFD display, since they might be one of the only companies in the world using the VFD and global volumes are very low. The touch aspect of this is pretty inexpensive, too (maybe 2 bucks for the IC and 2 bucks for the ITO layer). So, I think Logitech has the opportunity to improve their margins on the Touch if they sell it for the same price as the SB classic.

With that poor of resoluiton (it is not even HVGA!)and small size, it will not be a great device for showing the family photos. I wish it was bigger and at least VGA, but I still will get it. Great for Parties when playing tunes and showing the album art at the same time. I want one!