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smcclelland
2009-06-07, 13:58
I have a SB 3 and want to synchronise music to another room. Can I add a Duet and use the SB3 to sync with the SB3 or do I need a second SB3?

I was considering adding just a receiver, which I could set up to play in sync with the SB3 and add a Duet controller later.

Is this possible?

tcutting
2009-06-07, 14:26
You could do any of those things.
The hardware players, SB3 (SB Classic), SB2, SB Receiver, Transporter can all be synchronized together in any combination.
The SB Receiver "requires" the SB Controller for initial setup - although it's possible to set it up without the controller using the NET-UDAP application someone wrote, though it's not officially supported, and isn't quite as straightforward as using the controller to set up.

funkstar
2009-06-07, 15:25
Just to add a little flesh to tcutting's reply, have a look at this thread:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=64184

This explains how the devices communicate.

Basically all the devices talk to SqueezeCenter, which controls them as a group or individually. Any combination of hardware can be used, even going back to previous generations of player.

gNNY
2009-06-09, 13:56
Hi,

my Duet can sync just fine between the receiver and the controller. But as soon as I add an MP3 based player (like my Computer using iTunes) the hardware players stop. Syncing between other MP3 streams works (e.g. iTunes and Noxon) but the receiver won't play as soon as an MP3 stream is involved.

I've read on the Slimdevices Wiki that "Other software clients, such as Winamp and XMMS cannot be synchronized to a hardware player since SqueezeCenter will have no control over the client's buffering."

I suspect that this answers my question if sync between my receiver and an MP3 stream is possible or not (well, it's not), but I just wanted to get this confirmed here so that I can rule out a system defect.

BR,
Andreas

funkstar
2009-06-10, 02:57
Thats correct, syncing /stream.mp3 with anything else is not supported at all. I think there was a release where it was possible and caused problems, however now you should have the option to do it at all. This fix may be included in 7.3.3 which is due any time now.

Sync between a hardware player and an emulated player (such as SoftSqueeze, SqueezePlay or SqueezeSlave) is supported, however getting perfect sync isn't easy as they have no control over what Windows, the sound card or the sound card drivers are doing.

gNNY
2009-06-10, 04:15
however now you should have the option to do it at all.

what do you mean by that? What option should I have now?

Currently, I'm at work so I can't try it but I've thought of a work-around that might enable me to realize a multi-room, multi-system solution. Will try it later today. Let's see, I'll keep you updated ;)

funkstar
2009-06-10, 05:46
what do you mean by that? What option should I have now?
Oops, typo! You shouldn't have the option to sync stream.mp3 with a player at all, SqueezeCenter just shouldn't let you.


Currently, I'm at work so I can't try it but I've thought of a work-around that might enable me to realize a multi-room, multi-system solution. Will try it later today. Let's see, I'll keep you updated ;)
Going to give us a clue what you have in mind? :)

aubuti
2009-06-10, 06:18
Currently, I'm at work so I can't try it but I've thought of a work-around that might enable me to realize a multi-room, multi-system solution. Will try it later today. Let's see, I'll keep you updated ;)
I'm curious what you have in mind, but if you're committed to using software players, why not use one of the players designed to work with SqueezeCenter: SoftSqueeze, SqueezePlay, or squeezeslave? And for just a little more money you can buy additional SB Receiver(s) and get perfect sync.

gNNY
2009-06-10, 14:45
Hm, my idea seems not to work - at least for now.

Here's the thing: I'm pretty new to this Squeezebox game. Before that I had (and still have) a Terratec Noxon and was playing music which was coming from my Qnap NAS via uPnP. Now I've bought a Duet set and I was playing around with the different options I have now.

The idea was to play music coming from the Squeezecenter through the mp3 stream on the Noxon. So far, so good: my Noxon system shows up on the controler as a Windows Media Device in the player list. I can even synchronize it with other players. And that works, too.

Of course, as explained already in the above posts, as soon as the receiver comes into play, sync doesn't work as smoothly anymore.

So my idea was this: I wanted to hook up all music playing devices via the MP3 stream and synchronize it with the controller. Although hardware synced with MP3 sreams remaines silent, the songs still play on the streams and I can controll the playlists via the controller. Also, I won't mind that no sound comes from the controller as it should stay mute anyway.

The problem is the receiver in the living room. I was hoping that I could get it hooked up to the stream as well, somehow. Indeed, I was able to add the stream.mp3 as a Favorit to the receiver's list and it connects alright. But there is no sound coming from the receiver. And it won't show up on the player list either so I can't sync it with anything else.

So unfortunately, it's not working the way I wanted it to work. I tried to be smart about it, but the Squeezebox is smarter, it seems ;)

I'll toy around with the idea a little bit longer, unless you guys tell me right there and now that it's a lost cause...

andynormancx
2009-06-10, 14:55
The problem is the receiver in the living room. I was hoping that I could get it hooked up to the stream as well, somehow. Indeed, I was able to add the stream.mp3 as a Favorit to the receiver's list and it connects alright. But there is no sound coming from the receiver. And it won't show up on the player list either so I can't sync it with anything else.

Assuming by "receiver" you mean a Squeezebox Receiver, then if it isn't showing up in the list of players in SqueezeCenter then you have got something fair fundamental going wrong that you need to resolve before worry about what will and won't sync.

kpfeif
2009-06-10, 20:19
I'd like to hop into this thread a bit.

I have a Duet setup now and am very happy with it. Somebody I know is building a new home and asked me about his proposed whole-home audio system. It's using one of those controller units, home run speakers, central amp, etc., and "dumb" keypads. The cost = $8,500. Wow.

I think my setup, or a setup that uses a receiver + the iPeng app, works better in that it's interactive. He's interested in doing this. He'd have a dedicated receiver for each zone - 8 zones in all. They will have gigabit wired ethernet to each receiver. Since the receivers feed independent zones, each they'll all be located by one another.

I know Sonos is out there and brags about their player synchronization.

So, how reliable and well do the SB receivers or Duet receivers sync?

andynormancx
2009-06-11, 03:04
So, how reliable and well do the SB receivers or Duet receivers sync?

99% of the time they sync very, very well. When they are in sync is it close enough that when you stand between two rooms there is none of that echo you get with badly synced systems.

However my setup does very occasionally fail to sync. One player will start a track and the other one will start 30 seconds later completely out of sync. When that happens I have to restart SqueezeCenter to fix it. It happens very rarely though.

aubuti
2009-06-11, 06:55
So, how reliable and well do the SB receivers or Duet receivers sync?
In my experience, sync of SB hardware players is pretty much flawless now. The sync code was completely overhauled in SC 7.2 or 7.3, and now it is very robust. Older versions of SC and slimserver (what SC was called before 7.0) were not as good, which is why you may find complaints (including some by me) if you do a search in these forums and elsewhere.

Sync of software players like SoftSqueeze, SqueezePlay, and squeezeslave is still hit or miss, because of latencies that SC can't control. This also applies to streaming to the Duet Controller, which is considered a software player because it uses SqueezePlay to emulate a player.

I think the old approach of home-run speaker wires to a centralized amp is on the wane, to be replaced by cat5e or cat6 and networked players. Not this year or next, but some time in the next few years. And your friend is very smart to do it wired instead of depending on wireless.

funkstar
2009-06-11, 08:16
This also applies to streaming to the Duet Controller, which is considered a software player because it uses SqueezePlay to emulate a player.
Also because playback on the Controller is still in Beta so it hasn't been optimised yet. I couldn't say 100% but i'm sure it will be looked at eventually and given priority.... eventually :)

kpfeif
2009-06-11, 08:38
I think the old approach of home-run speaker wires to a centralized amp is on the wane, to be replaced by cat5e or cat6 and networked players. Not this year or next, but some time in the next few years. And your friend is very smart to do it wired instead of depending on wireless.

Agreed, but I think there will always be a place for homerun speaker wiring as long as that particular zone is for "background" music - speakers are in the ceiling, etc. I think a mix works best for me. The dedicated background systems - the patio, kitchen, dinette, dining room - are powered by a central amp and fed from a single player. Meanwhile, the "standalone" systems - the the living room area, the master bedroom (where there's a TV and other sources), etc., each have their own player.

I wired my house 2 years ago and already, through the advent of the Duet controller, it's out of date. I don't need the volume controls in each room. Instead I can control the volume from the remote. I couldn't afford multiple receivers so I have what I call the "whole home audio bus" which provides line-level audio to "standalone" systems and to the background music system. It works well and was awfully cheap.

gNNY
2009-06-11, 10:15
Assuming by "receiver" you mean a Squeezebox Receiver, then if it isn't showing up in the list of players in SqueezeCenter then you have got something fair fundamental going wrong that you need to resolve before worry about what will and won't sync.

Yes, I mean the Squeezebox Receiver. But, no, the Receiver works fine - if used in the intended way.

When I hook up a software player via the stream.mp3 it will show up under the players list on my Controller, eventually. I've added the stream.mp3 as a Favorit to my Receiver and when I start this, the Receiver doesn't appear a second time with this stream access under the players list. I'd hope it would show up two times: first as the "original" Receiver, second as "some device" that accesses the mp3 stream.

Since it doesn't, I guess the Squeezecenter is smarter than that. ;)

Before you ask: "Why would you want to do something like that, anyway"? I want to sync my Receiver with the Terratec Noxon (a uPnP hardware player) somehow. But the Noxon being recognized as a softplayer it shuts down Receiver playback as soon as I sync it.

So, can this be done? Sync between Receiver and Noxon?

snarlydwarf
2009-06-11, 14:16
So, can this be done? Sync between Receiver and Noxon?

No.

There is no way for the server to tell how deep the buffer is of a stream.mp3 player (ie, PC based players like Winamp or iTunes often have huge buffers, because PC RAM is cheap). Likewise there is no "oh, the user hit 'next', please flush that buffer and start playing this"... the server has no real control at all over the stream.mp3 output once it is queued.

(Not to mention stream.mp3 only streams mp3... anything else will need to be transcoded, so it will tend to sound less than ideal.)

aubuti
2009-06-11, 14:49
Agreed, but I think there will always be a place for homerun speaker wiring as long as that particular zone is for "background" music - speakers are in the ceiling, etc. I think a mix works best for me. The dedicated background systems - the patio, kitchen, dinette, dining room - are powered by a central amp and fed from a single player. Meanwhile, the "standalone" systems - the the living room area, the master bedroom (where there's a TV and other sources), etc., each have their own player.
Yes, I can see that. Homerun speaker wiring would also continue to be the choice when the user doesn't want an amp/receiver or active speakers in the room. Although that's changing, too, with increasing options for active in-ceiling/wall speakers and small, good quality T-amps, many at very attractive prices.

The Duet came along just in time for me to avoid putting a hole in a brand new kitchen cabinet and wall to pass the interconnects from an SB2 to the amp tucked away in the pantry (see photo (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=285125#post285125)). But I'm glad I put the volume controls in the wall -- beats having to find or wake up the remote when you need to turn down the volume fast.